Indian Army: News & Discussion

[Jagan]

Moreover the Army is in a habit of counting peace time non combat casualities on the border as part of its roll of honour

Rather daft an assertion.

Will change my opinion if proved with links!

I have been in these areas and damned I will be to equate battle causalities with others.

I have had battle casualties and those killed in avalanches.

Different kettle of fish!

Unless you can prove it, quit acting knowledgeable and if you can prove it, I will be the first one to accept it, having been educated!!

I did give the source earlier in my post. Amar Jawan - A Book of Remembrance by India book house

Compiled by Vice Admiral K K Nayyar (Retd) with full support of the Armed Forces.

Gen Roychowdhury writes in the Intro - "I compliment Admiral Nayyar for compiling Amar Jawan as a Roll of Honour of our war dead in India's wars since independence upto August 15, 1997."

And It has hundreds of names that can be classified as 'loss of life' due to accidents which are listed in the roll of honour.

your turn

Edit: The Acknowledgements credits Major General Afsir Karim and his research team for compiling the casuality lists

[ASPuar]

A casualty doesnt have to be due to direct enemy action, if it occurs during action! Why shouldnt they be counted in the roll of honour? After all, if a man dies in siachen of frostbite, or in cchamb sector in '71 because he fell into a ravine while en route to the battlefield, he still died in harness, protecting the country!

In other news, it seems that the home ministry is now coercing the army to bring 40000 troops to bear in the fight against naxals, while the army is protesting that it is at breaking point. My question still stands. Why does the home ministry have over 8,00,000 men under arms, if it cannot deal with the naxals without army help?

[ASPuar]

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090812/nation.htm#10

Tackling Naxals
Army may not have ‘spare’ men

Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, August 11
Even as the Ministry of Home Affairs is keen to have some units of the Indian Army into its projected 40,000 strong unified force to combat naxal violence, the Indian Army may not be in a position to “spare” enough men.

It is still to assume the proportions of a “tiff” between the Ministry of Defence on one side and the Home Affairs on other. However, sources said the Home Ministry will prevail.

The Home Ministry has announced its intentions of creating a special force for the naxal-affected districts located across several states in mid-eastern and central India.

The deployment of Rashtriya Rifles (RR), a force comprising entirely of the Army’s infantry units, into the naxal areas will be fine-tuned in the final strategy to counter naxalites.

“If we can get some units of the RR there will be nothing like it”, a top official in the Home Ministry had told a select group of mediapersons last week. Sources in the Indian Army said already 63 battalions or 63,000 men had been dedicated to the RR, any more men would mean lowering guard.

Most of the infantry units located in “peace stations” had been directed at maintaining a certain number of men to tackle any immediate aggression from any neighbour. The plan of the Home Ministry had been to reduce the para-military strength in J&K, this would add to the burden of the Army. Separately, several thousand strong army had been posted in other parts of the J&K like Ladakh, Jammu and the Doda regions. Besides, it had also been engaged in counter insurgency in North East and also the national security guards.

Not only this, the Home Ministry wants the help of the IAF for reconnaissance and rescue efforts. The IAF had unmanned aerial vehicles and also choppers that could aid this new force.

[Jagan]

A casualty doesnt have to be due to direct enemy action, if it occurs during action! Why shouldnt they be counted in the roll of honour? After all, if a man dies in siachen of frostbite, or in cchamb sector in '71 because he fell into a ravine while en route to the battlefield, he still died in harness, protecting the country!

I dont think one can dispute any of the above examples.

The debate in my mind is the different treatment between the Army and the Air Force inlisting their killed in the roll of honour.

A Major General died while travelling in a Cheetah Helicopter in Northern Sikkim. This was an operational accident - not a combat related, the officer and his crew are listed . Two Captains died in a supply dropping mission over Siachen. They too are all listed in the book.

but the airforce doesn not list the dozens of pilots, airmen it lost over Siachen in various helicopter accidents in the roll of honour? The only names it lists are where the helicopters went down to enemy fire (Two of them)

Why is there an inconsistency between the Army and the Air Force? 114HU lost several of its men flying supply sorties in dangerous terrain over Siachen. Yet they are not counted as 'war dead' by the IAF.

So there is a discrepancy in the approach of each arm towards this matter.

[RayC]

I did give the source earlier in my post. Amar Jawan - A Book of Remembrance by India book house

Compiled by Vice Admiral K K Nayyar (Retd) with full support of the Armed Forces.

Gen Roychowdhury writes in the Intro - "I compliment Admiral Nayyar for compiling Amar Jawan as a Roll of Honour of our war dead in India's wars since independence upto August 15, 1997."

And It has hundreds of names that can be classified as 'loss of life' due to accidents which are listed in the roll of honour.

your turn

Edit: The Acknowledgements credits Major General Afsir Karim and his research team for compiling the casuality lists

I am sure you will agree that laying one's life for the nation is totally different kettle of fish than accidental death because the sten cooked off.

Loss of Life is acceptable! But it is not a Roll of Honour!!

It is good to tote up the deaths and print it so that the country understand what it takes to defend the nation.

[Rahul M]

may be two separate lists can be maintained on the memorial ?

[ramana]

The soldier died while in service and at the non-peacetime locations and not in retirement. Any issues with that?

[RayC]

may be two separate lists can be maintained on the memorial ?

A memorial is for the heroes and not for those who died for other reasons.

It will become diluted like the PVSM and AVSM which every General picks up just get a chance to visit the Rastrapati Bhavan!!

[RayC]

The soldier died while in service and at the non-peacetime locations and not in retirement. Any issues with that?

Yes.

What is so honourable to die in the non peacetime location than peacetime location?

There are many who die in peacetime location during exercises, which is war exercise, which some mistakenly call wargames.

And there are many who die in non peacetime location because of their damned carelessness and lack of professionalism!!

Such people sharing the same pedestal as those who laid their lives for defending their country would insult the war heroes!

When I visited my unit, this Reunion, I saw the same error. I had it immediately corrected.

Those who died because of enemy action were put on the Roll of Honour and those who died in Avalanches (and it was their mistake anyway, won't discuss why) I had them put under 'Death in Operational Area Service'.

[ASPuar]

Why is there an inconsistency between the Army and the Air Force? 114HU lost several of its men flying supply sorties in dangerous terrain over Siachen. Yet they are not counted as 'war dead' by the IAF.

So there is a discrepancy in the approach of each arm towards this matter.

"Roll of Honor" is a subjective term, and IMO, all persons who die due to service conditions, must be honoured.

Jagan, to answer what I think you are asking, the point is largely an esoteric one. The government considers almost all loss of life on service, to be under the term "battle casualty", including when on aid to civil admin, etc etc. The pensionary and other benefits accruing to family, like reservation for wards, etc, amount to the same.

RayC makes a good point, when he says that it explains to the public what the cost of defending the nation is, in terms of lives. Perhaps the airforce should also report all its casualties to the public, so that it knows the price our air warriors pay, to keep us safe, our troops fed, supplied and healthy, and our skies free of threat.

By odd coincidence, Major Navdeep Singh has written on the same on his blog, just today, and he reports that the army, following instructions from the government, has issued the following orders on the subject:

Army Order 01 of 2003 deals with situations which are to be covered under the purview of the term ‘battle casualty’ for casualties occurring after the year 2003 while Special Army Order 8/S/85 deals with battle casualties which occurred prior to the year 2003.

Some injuries and deaths which are actually battle casualties but are commonly (and incorrectly) labelled as physical casualties are : casualties in aid to civil power, accidental injuries and deaths in operational areas, accidental deaths in floods, avalanches, land slides and cyclones, casualties due to natural illnesses near international border and LC, casualties during battle inoculation and training, casualties while performing relief operations in natural calamities such as floods and earthquakes, unintentional deaths by own troops, vehicle accidents / electrocution / snake bites / drowning in CI Ops.

[nelson]

RayC

Those who died because of enemy action were put on the Roll of Honour and those who died in Avalanches (and it was their mistake anyway, won't discuss why) I had them put under 'Death in Operational Area Service'.

In that case, one can even contest question each and every life lost in enemy action, as one due to friendly fire, own mistake of stepping on a mine while charging. there exists not even a thin line to distinguish many of the cases into categories of valor and selfless sacrifice or otherwise.

live example

patrol is sent out trace out another patrol possibly caught in avalanche. knowing fully well that there is a likely avalanche, the second patrol forays into the avalanche to save men in the first and suffer casualties in that process

now does the act of members of the second patrol not amount to valour or sacrifice.

what enemy or enemy action is required to prove that these were brave enough?

or where they in an act of adventure sport?

second live example

an officer gets wounded due to artillery shelling while sitting on shitpot and gets awarded sena medal and parakram padak

enemy action, yes. but valour sacrifice? you tell me.

[RayC]

RayC

Those who died because of enemy action were put on the Roll of Honour and those who died in Avalanches (and it was their mistake anyway, won't discuss why) I had them put under 'Death in Operational Area Service'.

In that case, one can even contest question each and every life lost in enemy action, as one due to friendly fire, own mistake of stepping on a mine while charging. there exists not even a thin line to distinguish many of the cases into categories of valor and selfless sacrifice or otherwise.

live example

patrol is sent out trace out another patrol possibly caught in avalanche. knowing fully well that there is a likely avalanche, the second patrol forays into the avalanche to save men in the first and suffer casualties in that process

now does the act of members of the second patrol not amount to valour or sacrifice.

what enemy or enemy action is required to prove that these were brave enough?

or where they in an act of adventure sport?

second live example

an officer gets wounded due to artillery shelling while sitting on shitpot and gets awarded sena medal and parakram padak

enemy action, yes. but valour sacrifice? you tell me.

It is true that anything and everything in life and death can be contested. However, while you feel there is no thin line, yet there exists a thin line in the Army and that thin line is the Commanding Officer. His experience and background knowledge allows him to distinguish and that is what counts.

It is like the Judge of the Supreme Court and the final court of justice. That Judge bases the case on evidence and legalities and then passes the sentence. It may not be perfect, but it is accepted by the nation.

Stepping on a mine is a battle casualty as per the norms in vogue. Avalanches are operation casualties but will be covered as battle casualties for compensation’s sake. And in the case you have illustrated, if the action was beyond the call of duty, maybe citations of action beyond the call of duty maybe initiated!
Now, if you were the CO and you thought the patrol in an avalanche rescue was adventure sport, it will surely prove your enthusiasm for adventure sport where you feel that a rescue is but an adventure.

In fact, we used to patrol the heights of Pir Panjal and take it as adventure! Helps to take the drudgery out of the routine! Actually, if you come to think of it, war, itself is a great adventure.

Now, if one is attending his morning ablution and gets wounded by an arty shell and then gets a SM, that would indeed be real extraordinary! If you feel it was valour then so be it! Under the normal circumstances, such a person would surely not be getting any awards, but then there could be COs with the understanding of valour and sacrifice that you have mentioned!!

[Jagan]

Death benefits apart, there is the intangible value of having your name listed on a memorial that is very important to the kin.

I dont think there is any distinction in wartime - the practice is sthat all operational losses in battle areas including accidents etc will be treated as battle casualities and are listed on all rolls of honour. it is only in peacetime that the dillema arises.

it would be interesting to see what the army will do when the "National Memorial" is built. we will have to see.

[Jagan]

How would one classify the death of Maj Gen E W Fernandes in the Badami Bagh Cantonment explosion? Was it proven that it was a timebomb or an accident? I remember Manoj Joshi wrote in his book that it was a bomb and not an accident. where any findings made?

[RayC]

It is supposed to have been a bomb and hence in those circumstances, it would be a battle casualty since COIN is classified as an operation.

The Roll of Honour is not done to for the next of kin's sentiment. It is done to motivate future generations of soldiers. The same motivation that one get by reading Regimental history and actions of units and individuals in war and COIN and even flood relief and disaster management.

Roll of Honour is a very sacred thing to the soldier.

Now, if a person's sten falls in Siachen and he is wounded/dies because of his carelessness, (this type of 'accidents' have happened and so I am quoting this as an example) he would surely not be in the Roll of Honour. Compare his name being side by side with those who died capturing Bana Post.

Take the case of fragging. Should the person who kills his buddies on the post and then turns the weapon on himself and dies (on the post and hence in the operational area) be also in the Roll of Honour?

[Jagan]

RayC, I know what you feel about the distinction and the need to keep these separate

But what I am trying to get a clearer picture about is the Army's Official classification and some of the things i am seeing says different.

Again, I think the policy is that all deaths, irrespective of cause during War Time are included in these rolls.


Infact this is in line with what the CWGC Does. the Roll of Honour for WWII "Debt of Honour", maintained by Commonwealth War Graves Commission (Www.cwgc.org) includes ALL - accidents, typhoid, malaria, stupidity and even suicides. As long as the death happened in uniform , it is included. But it was war time, so the policy had been to include all wartime deaths, irrspective of the cause in the honours.


You say peacetime treatment is different and accidental deaths are not included in rolls of honour. But the Amar-Jawan book says otherwise - and If I will take your word for it that it was for public consumption then the book is a misleading attempt and fools both the people of India as well as NoK of those killed in accidents. Not desirable eitherway

[RayC]

RayC, I know what you feel about the distinction and the need to keep these separate

But what I am trying to get a clearer picture about is the Army's Official classification and some of the things i am seeing says different.

Again, I think the policy is that all deaths, irrespective of cause during War Time are included in these rolls.


Infact this is in line with what the CWGC Does. the Roll of Honour for WWII "Debt of Honour", maintained by Commonwealth War Graves Commission (http://Www.cwgc.org) includes ALL - accidents, typhoid, malaria, stupidity and even suicides. As long as the death happened in uniform , it is included. But it was war time, so the policy had been to include all wartime deaths, irrspective of the cause in the honours.


You say peacetime treatment is different and accidental deaths are not included in rolls of honour. But the Amar-Jawan book says otherwise - and If I will take your word for it that it was for public consumption then the book is a misleading attempt and fools both the people of India as well as NoK of those killed in accidents. Not desirable eitherway

Jagan,

The Armed Forces is very subjective. Whatever the boss says goes! Thus, the difference in the Army and Air Force perceptions. I prefer the Air Force's perception.

One could have a Debt of Honour for non battle cases. I agree on that, except that medical deaths or no operational deaths are hardly a part of any debt that the nation should shoulder! What if some bloke dies of AIDS in the operational area? OK, maybe the Nation did not care for his biological needs and he had to get it on his own, the nation should feel guilty!

No offence meant. Just wondering and debating!

Maybe I am touchy.

I have a decoration that is given in combat as also to those who keep the cars fit for VIPs! It is a very subjective and misused decoration.

When I went for the Investiture, an EME senior officer, way senior to me, said Oh I see another with the same medal I have in a very disparaging tone!

Being what I am, I had no hesitation in telling him that I got it in combat and he got it in repairing vehicles!!

If all and sundry are equated on the same platform, the value is lost.

Do you think anyone cares for the PVSMs and AVSMs that General get every Republic Day (and some deserve it, while most don't) and it becomes routine, it does lose its glamour and value.

Books will write what is the perception of the author. He may be motivated to promote a view. Check the number of books on Kargil, which was a cash cow for many. Gaurav Sawant spoke of sitting in a trench outside the Brigade HQ in Kargil with Madras Regt troops! Were they there? I wonder, who he was sitting with. My memory fails, but the last time I was around those parts and during the War, I think that the Bde HQ was staffed by Dogras.

Now, if I contest Gaurav Sawant on the issue, there will me many to tell me it is in the book and so carved in stone!!

Take the case of Sureesh Mehta. He was asked a question and he replied it as honestly as he could. The media went to town and conveniently forgot it was in reply which has resulted in people, on this very forum, stating that Chiefs develop spine pre retirement. Sadly, they don't check the address given earlier or their writings and become Oracles based on one news report, which is but sensationalism! Therefore, what is written is cast in stone, whether it is true or not!

[Jagan]

[

Now, if I contest Gaurav Sawant on the issue, there will me many to tell me it is in the book and so carved in stone!!

I think it is a tad unfair for Vice Admiral Nayyar, Maj Gen Karim, and the team of army researchers who worked on the Amar Jawan book that you are comparing them with Gaurav Sawant's Kargil Book!

the former is based on real research, with lists provided by the Army and the Regimental Centers and published by the team after scrutiny, while the latter is merely a consolidation of personal recollections of a journalist. Both are as different from chalk and cheese.

You can easily differentiate a labour of love from a money maker quickie (albiet well written)!

[RayC]

[

Now, if I contest Gaurav Sawant on the issue, there will me many to tell me it is in the book and so carved in stone!!

I think it is a tad unfair for Vice Admiral Nayyar, Maj Gen Karim, and the team of army researchers who worked on the Amar Jawan book that you are comparing them with Gaurav Sawant's Kargil Book!

the former is based on real research, with lists provided by the Army and the Regimental Centers and published by the team after scrutiny, while the latter is merely a consolidation of personal recollections of a journalist. Both are as different from chalk and cheese.

You can easily differentiate a labour of love from a money maker quickie!

I appreciate their labour of love.

I have not read it and so my comment will not be fair.

I have seen the hordes who descended after the Kargil War. They also did many labours of love.

There are statements of many who were there, who claimed that one should have crossed the LC and they would have delivered Heaven. Who stopped them?

Are Military histories true to the facts? I wonder.

Jagan, with due regards to all, I have and will be one, who searches for the truth and justice. I have always been opposed to whitewashing or over glamorising the mundane and I daresay I am not a darling of many!

[RayC]

Ravi Eipe, who rose to be an Army Commander, ran away from ThagLa Ridge in 1962.

How many know this?

It was known in the Army and now it is carved in stone since Amarinder Singh had no hesitation to mention in his book, Lest We Forget!!

While I am proud to have served my country in uniform and will fight tooth and nail for injustices being showered on the people in uniform, yet at the same time, I find it difficult to accept issues that are done for political reasons or for being PC.

I say this with all humility at my command!

[ASPuar]

I have a decoration that is given in combat as also to those who keep the cars fit for VIPs! It is a very subjective and misused decoration.

When I went for the Investiture, an EME senior officer, way senior to me, said Oh I see another with the same medal I have in a very disparaging tone!

Being what I am, I had no hesitation in telling him that I got it in combat and he got it in repairing vehicles!!

Do you think anyone cares for the PVSMs and AVSMs that General get every Republic Day (and some deserve it, while most don't) and it becomes routine, it does lose its glamour and value.

Some generals definitely deserve their PVSM's, IMHO.

Take the case of Sureesh Mehta. He was asked a question and he replied it as honestly as he could. The media went to town and conveniently forgot it was in reply which has resulted in people, on this very forum, stating that Chiefs develop spine pre retirement. Sadly, they don't check the address given earlier or their writings and become Oracles based on one news report, which is but sensationalism! Therefore, what is written is cast in stone, whether it is true or not!

Adm. Mehta, IMHO has been the b@llsiest chief of all, for the last three years. He's never hesitated to say exactly what he felt, and even the little bit that the govt was forced to concede in this disgusting pay commission fiasco, was because he propped up the other service heads, as Chairman, CoSC. He is a tiger.

[Jagan]

Are Military histories true to the facts? I wonder.

You cant expect a book to be 100% truth, but one can use thier experience and knowledge to sift the real stuff from the BS.

The bulk of the regimental histories and official histories are true to the facts as far as our own casualities are concerned. yes claims about enemy kills and victories might be exaggerated. but our losses are always accurately accounted for.

And I find most regimental histories to be very balanced and well written accounts. (Though I have a distaste about the recent trend to go for 'coffee table - pictorial ' books.)

you may have read a bad book, but that doesnt mean all books are bad and unreliable. It is with experience and knowledge that one can easily discern an exaggerations vs the truth

You havent read the book Amar Jawan - Most institutional libraries would have copies. maybe even the local RSI . I would stronglly recommnend reading it for anyone dabbling with casuality numbers.

[suryag]

How good are the capabilities of our para military forces(bsf, itbp, crpf) to perform infantry like roles. Are these forces trained to some extent like the regular IA infantry? I am asking this question because if we open a front in the North the pigs in the west would open another front and to maintain a defensive posture on the western front we need boots on the ground. Since, we have close to 3lakh men from the paramilitary forces can we deploy them with support of armoured formations to stave of any attack from the west. Does this kind of infantry like activity find place in the training manuals of the para military forces ? Has there ever been any kind of exercise to iron out the niggles in an inter-service operation(ia-paramilitary)?

[VinodTK]

Indo-US war games in October

[kancha]

... disgusting pay commission fiasco ...

A bit, rather a lot far fetched though crossed my mind, pl bear with me as I put it down.

Why not make a year's military training followed by another one year attachment with units serving in field areas a compulsory before sending prospective IAS officers to the Lal Bahadur Shastri Academy in Mussoorie? I believe that the army is actually doing so for the officers it inducts in the technical arms before giving them their arm related training.

Not only will it prevent such fiascos and other related problems in future, but also to some extent help overcome the shortage of officers in field areas, besides giving us a babudom that is a lot fitter.

I know that this may be impractical as of now, but worth a thought maybe.

[nelson]

The Defence Secretary will introduce General Officer Commanding, Delhi Area, Lt General Kanwal Jit Singh Oberoi to the Prime Minister. The GOC Delhi Area will then conduct the Prime Minister to the Saluting Base where a combined inter-services and police guard will present general salute to the Prime Minister. Thereafter, Dr. Manmohan Singh will inspect the guard of honour.

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=51824

Is the post of GOC Delhi Area held by a Lt Gen?
If yes since when?
TIA

[nelson]

Independence Day Awards for gallantry have been announced by the govt.

There shall be two AC, four KC, 14 SC and 131 SM gallantry awarded apart from host of distinguished service medals.

Maj Mohit Sharma 1 PARA SF has been awarded Ashok Chakra posthumously for gallant action in flushing out militants in Kupwara in Mar 2009.

Maj D Srikumar of Artillery has been awarded Ashok Chakra for his consummate leader ship and bravery in fighting insurgency in NE.

Kudos to the recipients and heartfelt Thanks to their families.

[Rishi]

Shourya Chakra List:

1. Major Dinesh Singh Parmar, 2 Sikh Light Infantry
2. Major Manu Shukla, Regiment of Artillery/11 Rashtriya Rifles
3. Major Saurabh Dutt Khola, Armoured Corps/22 Rashtriya Rifles
4. Major Ratnesh Kumar Singh, Rajput Regiment/58 Rashtriya Rifles
5. Major Subramaniam Anand, 4 Sikh Light Infantry
6. Major Ankur Garg, Corps of Engineers/24 Rashtriya Rifles
7. Lt Chundawat Prasgant Singh 16th Battalion The Jat Regiment
8. Naib Subedar Ganesh Nath, 7 Assam Rifles
9. Hav Rakesh Kumar, 1st Battalion The Parachute Regiment (Special Forces) (Posthumous)
10. Hav Vipan Thakur, 9th Battalion The Parachute Regiment (Special Forces) (Posthumous)
11. Lance Hav Luis Periyera Nayagam, Madras Regiment/8 Rashtriya Rifles
12. Naik Pawar Chandrabhan Bhikan, 7 Maratha Light Infantry (Posthumous)
13. Naik Manoj Singh, 1st Battalion The Parachute Regiment (Special Forces) (Posthumous)
14. Lance Naik Subash Chander, 10 Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry (Posthumous) .

[SanjibGhosh]

X posting from special force thread

http://www.salute.co.in/180409/feat_Ban ... 20Dum.html

A tribute to major Mohit Sharma and his men of Special Forces (para 1) who led down their life in Kupwara on 21 March 2009. I new Major Mohit Sharma as a gallantry award winner brave heart and one of the finest officer in Indian army. I new him as his brother is my friend and colleague and working for same organization over nine years.

Major Mohit Sharma get Ashok Chakra posthumously.


Govt declares chakra awards for bravery
http://www.zeenews.com/news555108.html

[AmitNangia]

I have been following the gallantry awards list since I was a child. Today, as a cynical adult, I feel as much pain and anguish at the posthumous awards as I felt as a wide eyed child.

It saddens me to see so many good men laying down their lives month after month, year after year. Young officers and jawans, bright, brave, and patriotic, being lost in counter insurgency operations with sickening regularity. What is disheartening is the lack of national will to put an end to this for once and for all. Forget about strong punitive action against the root of these problems, in many cases, lives which could otherwise be saved, are lost due to the absence of adequate protective gear. Yes, progress is there, but far too slow, and every delay means a greater loss of good men and women.

[ramana]

I was at the Republic Day parade in 1996 when I saw the mother of the hero recieving the award and as the citation was read my hair stood for what the young officer did was beyond bravery.

[Gerard]

President’s elite guards guilty of student rape

[RayC]

The so called protective gear like the helmet is worn, but given a chance it is kept on the side. It is so heavy that the mind get blocked (metaphorically).

During shelling it is a must.

[nachiket]

The so called protective gear like the helmet is worn, but given a chance it is kept on the side. It is so heavy that the mind get blocked (metaphorically).

During shelling it is a must.

The tragedy is that we have companies right here in India making lightweight protective gear including helmets. (And I'm not talking about the infamous OFB).

[RayC]

But helmets are great to make tea!

You win some and you lose some!!

[Ranjan]

But helmets are great to make tea!

You win some and you lose some!!

..... and also great to scoop dirty water (which actually feels like heaven then!!!!) to quench your thirst during the "runbacks"!! But seriously I guess we do not implement the wearing of the helmet very strictly. Just take a look at any of the Western Army photos or videos and you see soldiers wearing helmets almost in all of them. Compare that with our guys.... covering your head with cloth patakas are the in thing and that is taken as the ideal headgear. No wonder the priority for purchasing good quality helmets is quite down the order.

[Arun_S]

'He was a man of conviction'

TNN 19 August 2009, 04:38am IST
PUNE: Lt Gen Eric Alexander Vas, an astute military thinker, who is known for his writings on national security and controlling terrorism, passed away in his sleep at his residence at around 11 pm on Monday night. He was 86.

Vas is survived by his wife, Maureen, son Eric Junior and daughter, Asha. Vas was cremated as per his wish with full military honours at the crematorium in Golibar Maidan on Tuesday.

Born on May 15, 1923 in Karachi, Pakistan, Vas moved to India during the partition. He had served as the Commandant, College of Combat during its inception and was the founder of the Army's Higher Command Force.

During his long career in the Indian armed forces, Vas served the country as a Brigadier General Staff, Southern Command; the Commanding officer 1st Battalion 9th Gorkha Rifles; General Officer Commanding, 12 Infantry division and General Officer Commanding-in-Chief Eastern Army (Kolkata).

Vas was active even after his retirement and had even founded the Indian Initiative for Peace Arms Control and Disarmament (INPAD) in Pune.

He had a gift of pen and wrote several articles on national security and international affairs in various magazines and national newspapers. He has four published books to his credit, including the Terrorism and Insurgency: a challenge of Modernisation'.

"He was well-known as a thinking general and liked by all. As a person who more or less instituted the College of Combat of the Army in Mhow, Madhya Pradesh, he encouraged officers to question dogmas and doctrines instead of following them blindly," said Col Anil Athale (retd).

Maj Gen S C N Jatar (retd) called Vas a person of strong convictions, who was not afraid to stand by them. "I have known him for over five decades and even served under him in Punjab in 1974-75. His conviction and his straight forward attitude set him apart from his peers," said Jatar.

Vas was also one of the life members of a citizens' activist group the Nagrik Chetna Manch that was founded by Jatar. Air Chief Marshal H Moolgaonkar (retd) said, "I have known him for a long time. An educated person, he formed the Group of 12' which now has 18 members who meet every month and organise discussions on various subjects. He was a gallant officer."

My salute to Lt Gen Eric Alexander Vas.

[ramana]

Maj Gen Sukhwant SIngh in his India's wars since Independence says that Lt Gen Vaz came up with the idea of having the entire division's guns fire at a group of target during the 1971 planning.

[Arun_S]

Received via email:

Actually, many would be surprised to know that Eric Vaz was originally commissioned in the Baluch Rifles. He opted to come to India and joined the 9th Gorkhas. His brother stayed in TSP and became the head of TSP railways. ... . . .

[ssmitra]

President’s elite guards guilty of student rape

not the right forum I know but finally justice has been served, but it took 6 years for a simple rape conviction is ridiculous. Also were they really from the PBJs or are they from the other units which are present their for other duties..

This brings in mind two other incidents involving army personnel and I was wondering if any one has any more info on what happened ultimately
1. was a case of a para officer being beaten by CRPF jawans while he was jogging near the diplomatic enclave in delhi

2. What happened in the case where the kolkatta police beat up an army captain during new year's eve.