Indian Army: News & Discussion

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 03 Oct 2009 03:48

rohitvats wrote:And IIRC, there are couple of battalions in the Brigade of Guards which still retain the ATGM Battalions role? I remember detachments from 17 Guards ?) being used in ATGM role in Kargil and were attached to various formations.

Yes, 17th and 19th Guards were both providing ATGM detachments during the Kargil conflict, and of course the Guards also contribute to the RR. However most of the Guards battalions are mechanized.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Oct 2009 13:36

ParGha wrote:
rohitvats wrote:And IIRC, there are couple of battalions in the Brigade of Guards which still retain the ATGM Battalions role? I remember detachments from 17 Guards ?) being used in ATGM role in Kargil and were attached to various formations.
Yes, 17th and 19th Guards were both providing ATGM detachments during the Kargil conflict, and of course the Guards also contribute to the RR. However most of the Guards battalions are mechanized.

So it is quite all right to believe that 17 and 19th are in pure ATGM role?

Also,can you please check the calculation wrt the numer of mechanized battlions in previous page and provide input?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 03 Oct 2009 21:19

Reort today in Hindustan Times Mumbai edition (i am not able to give a link to the the e-version) of Indian Army issuing a Global RFI for Procuring 300 Light Tanks.200 wheeled and 100 Tracked for deployment in the North East. Army to decide

after the last date of submission on October 30th.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 04 Oct 2009 02:15

Vipul wrote:Reort today in Hindustan Times Mumbai edition (i am not able to give a link to the the e-version) of Indian Army issuing a Global RFI for Procuring 300 Light Tanks.200 wheeled and 100 Tracked for deployment in the North East. Army to decide after the last date of submission on October 30th.

China is building a military and we are buying. 1000s of years of slavery/history has not been a lesson to our MoD.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Oct 2009 02:50

Its starting to get a little embarrassing

On one hand we are being counted as part of BRIC

on other hand we are buying every darn thing

basic trainer - , wheeled vehicles - sigh

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Oct 2009 02:53

incredibly poor planning.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 04 Oct 2009 06:36

rohitvats wrote:So it is quite all right to believe that 17 and 19th are in pure ATGM role?

No idea what it is now, but in 1999 that is correct.

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 04 Oct 2009 07:58

The China-India flap of '09 made clearer the role of the new raising of two mountain divs in NE.

It turns out that one of the two divs will be under 4 Corps, and will be looking after Eastern Arunachal. This means 4 Corps will now have 4 Divs under it, up from the previous 3. The divs under 4 corps have AORs from the Assam-Bhutan border in the west to the India-China-Myanmar border.

The second div will be raised in the deep south of NE. This will free up 57 Div, which will move to Southern Assam for more flexible deployment. The second newly raised Div will be under 3 Corps; 57 Div is also currently under 3 Corps. Very interestingly, the baton seems to be passing to AR to take care of CI in areas currently looked after by 57 Div. So the newly raised Div will be more easily extricated for ops outside its bases and primary AOR.

What are the implications? 4 Corps gains strength and the China-India border gets bolstered with additional strength. If we are permitted to dream, 4 Corps would become a mountain version of a Pivot Corps if some of the divs under it (esp 5 Mtn Div) get converted to Sundarji's vision of RAMID. That's the mountain equivalent of a RAPID.

But of much greater importance is what happens to 3 Corps. The raising the second div for 3 Corps and making 54 Div more available for multi tasking makes more power available for flexible deployment. 3 Corps, which was very intriguingly deployed in the west during Parakram, now becomes a true strategic reserve corps with an ability to deploy in any terrain and any theatre. It has 4 Divs, three of which are based such that they can be easily and rapidly move east or west (or towards any other point of compass). And they will be able to do it without weakening the defensive posture in any one area. I expect 3 Corps will get first priority for air lift capability in terms of heavy lift helicopters. It is also the primary candidate to recieve the mobile, easily deployable, light 155 mm howitzers when the powers that be finally manage to get their act together.

Move over, Kharga. A new hot shot just came to town.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 04 Oct 2009 08:43

Rahul M wrote:incredibly poor planning.

Add to that "reactive decission making and posturing" rather than the more favourable proactive...

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Oct 2009 08:47

and why this light tank need now??

The tin cans are light

or they could modify a BMP

or just have wheeled ones with 90 mm or 105 mm guns

sid_ashar · Post by **sid_ashar** » 04 Oct 2009 09:36

Y I Patel wrote: What are the implications? 4 Corps gains strength and the China-India border gets bolstered with additional strength. If we are permitted to dream, 4 Corps would become a mountain version of a Pivot Corps if some of the divs under it (esp 5 Mtn Div) get converted to Sundarji's vision of RAMID. That's the mountain equivalent of a RAPID.

Does that mean that Indian military planners are finally realizing that they will have to have an offensive posture on our eastern and western fronts? My limited understanding during Parakram was that our capabilities were limited to only being able to go on the offensive on one front.

Sid

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Oct 2009 10:02

It is also the primary candidate to recieve the mobile, easily deployable, light 155 mm howitzers when the powers that be finally manage to get their act together.

Seems a long time away

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 04 Oct 2009 12:05

Vipul wrote:Reort today in Hindustan Times Mumbai edition (i am not able to give a link to the the e-version) of Indian Army issuing a Global RFI for Procuring 300 Light Tanks.200 wheeled and 100 Tracked for deployment in the North East. Army to decide after the last date of submission on October 30th.

Link Not HT but from DNA about 300 light tank RFI.

The tanks are expected to weigh around 22 tonnes and be capable of operating at heights of over 3,000 metres in hilly terrain, they said.

Ankit

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Oct 2009 13:11

@YI Patel: Are you basing your assumptions on the raising of Mountain Divisions and their holding pattern on the FORCE Magazine article? Because if you are, there are certain doubts I have wrt the article:

1. It talks about one of the new formations being administratively under 4 Corps but operationally under 3rd. Makes sense. For if the 3 Corps HQ moves out, like 2002, the new raising will not be 'motherless'.
2. Also, I honestly do not feel that 4 Corps will be burdened with such a vast AOR. And commanding 4 Divisions in mountainous terrain is no small task itself. Did we not split the 16th Corps only recently? It makes sense to fill out the 3rd by giving it the necessary number of Divisions (57th+2 new raisings)
3. And one of the Mountain Divisions has been christened as 41st. IIRC, IA has an Artillery Division by that number. And IA does not allot duplicate numbers even when the profile of Divisions is different. For example, IA will have only one Division with number 1st (1st Armored Division). US Army on the other hand can/does have 1st Infantry Division and 1st Cavalry Division.
4. It talks about the 57th vacating its location to accomodate one of the new divisions and moving into lower Assam. And why would it do that?Does not make sense.

As to some other points in your analysis:
1. Which are/will be the 4 Divisions under 3 Corps? 57th+new division+new divisions(my guess)+?
2. And I think you intended to mention 57th Mountain Division and not 54th. 54th is with 21 Corps and based out of Secunderabad.
3. If any of the Divisions under 4 Corps is likely to get into RAMID shape, it is likely to be the 21st Mountain Division based out of Rangiya, couple of hours drive from Guwahati in lower Assam. 5th is pretty much tied up in Tenga and is a true holding division.
5. As for 2002 mobilization, 3 Corps was in the Smabha/Chicken's Neck Area commanding the formations. 4th Mountain Division was also under this Corps and involved in master deception which saw concentration of IA's thre Armored Divisions in a narrow area in Souhtern Punjab/Northern Rajasthan. This is what made the PA and Musharraf soil there pants and talk bhai chara on TV. This is what prompted PA to shift the XXXI Coprs from Bahawalpur to Pano Aquil and try and plug the gap.

-As for the 300 light tanks, we need to wait for more official data to evaluate there intended use. I've not seen the Sikkim area but does the terrain allow massing of couple of regiments?Will it not be more like Squadrons in support of infantry?
-Another area where there is definite deployment potential is the Southern Ladakh section around Chusul and Dhemchok. We did deploy AMX-13 in the Spanggur gap (opposite Chusul) as we expected PLA Armor activity. The 3rd Div in Leh already has compliment of BMP-II and T-72s.

PS: I'm not aware of modifications under RAMID. Can you please elaborate? Thanx in advance

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Oct 2009 13:14

rohit,

Could you give the Link to this Force Magazine article?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Oct 2009 13:22

I'm not aware of anything about the RAMID idea beyond the basic definition. any details will be much appreciated.
TIA.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Oct 2009 13:31

RayC wrote:rohit,

Could you give the Link to this Force Magazine article?

Sir, the reason I did not link that article because of history (I'm sure you're aware of it). Just checked the site, cannot trace the article. But did mention the name as 41st and 56th Mountain Divisions for new raisings. Plus the holding pattern and move of 57th from Leimakong to lower Assam.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Oct 2009 13:37

rohitvats wrote:
RayC wrote:rohit,

Could you give the Link to this Force Magazine article?
Sir, the reason I did not link that article because of history (I'm sure you're aware of it). Just checked the site, cannot trace the article. But did mention the name as 41st and 56th Mountain Divisions for new raisings. Plus the holding pattern and move of 57th from Leimakong to lower Assam.

I wanted the link, since I was perplexed as to what is up given YIP's post and yours.

Thanks all the same.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Oct 2009 16:45

RayC wrote: I wanted the link, since I was perplexed as to what is up given YIP's post and yours.

Thanks all the same.

Paging RayC Sir:While the article is not available at the wesite, cached copy is available here:

http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:jt ... clnk&gl=in

I do not know how long will this remain available. It's full of inaccuracies.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Oct 2009 23:15

Thanks.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 05 Oct 2009 01:11

Rahul M wrote:I'm not aware of anything about the RAMID idea beyond the basic definition. any details will be much appreciated. TIA.

I second that. As a matter of fact, I have never even heard of the RAMID - except when people emphasize that RAPID is RAPID and there is no such thing as RAMID (as BR site also does at the moment):

Infantry Mountain Divisions have also been reorganized - the term RAMID (Reorganised Army Mountain Infantry Division) is not used however. http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... tions.html

Any information to the contrary will be appreciated.

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 05 Oct 2009 03:47

Rohit

I have to emphatically deny not having based my reasoning on the FORCE article. Over time, I have begun to develop an active distaste for Praveen Sawhney's opinions, and have never read FORCE (till I read the article you pointed to). I did "force" myself to buy the book he co-wrote with LtGen Sood on Parakram, and forced myself to go through it. The book is full of overblown opinion and factual inaccuracies, much like the article you linked to. Regarding his article, I am as surprised as you about the new mtn div being numbered 41. But then, this is an article by PS, so one has to give latitude for inaccuracy and even deliberate misinformation.

If my reasoning comes out parallel to what he is reporting, that's mainly because I probably started from the same set of assumptions he did. He, of course, has additional advantage of access to information that I do not. So if there are facts in his article that contradict what I am saying, I would be open to the possibility that he is correct when he is not misleading.

Regarding 54 div, I did mean 57.

Regarding 3 Corps, people usually just assign 57 and 23 to it. I also have fallen into the habit of assigning 20 to it, though most sources assign 20 to 33 Corps. I figure that when 3 Corps moves it will take three divs with it anyway, and 20 is a ripe candidate given where it is based. So with the new raising (56?) we now have the possibility that it can move with four divs.

Of course, an alternative way of looking at things is that now we have four+ divs primarily assigned to the NE that are readily available for deployment elsewhere. In Parakram, the three divs that moved from NE may have all been under 3 Corps, but I get the suspicion from what you write (and what Praveen Sawhney wrote in his Parakram book) that HQ 3 Corps took over 57, 26 and 29 Divs (plus indep Armd bdes). The other two Divs from NE look like they went to the Pir Panjal, that old sponge of manpower. So in a way, the newly raised 9 Corps is really inheriting the concept of breaking up 16 Corps AOR that was first tested during Parakram. Digressing a bit, it was interesting to read recent reports indicating that 39 Div might now be associated with 9 Corps - when it was first raised, 9 corps did not have 39 div associated with it.

Regarding why 57 is moving to Southern Assam, I think it is because of the fairly recently developed railway line on the south bank of Brahmaputra. As you know, that rail is BG all the way to Dibrugarh, and one has to recognize the immense strategic possibilities this railway has opened up for IA. Basing 57 div formations along this line permits them to move rapidly westwards if necessary; far more so than if they have to be extricated from farther south where they were originally located. The new raising in the southern NE states will probably be given a large AOR on the borders on both sides, and will likely be less used for flexible deployment than 57.

Again, please recognize that this is my conjecture. If you or anyone reads anything different, please post.

Finally, regarding RAMID divs. There was talk of them long ago, before most of you were born. They objective was to increase mechanization and armoured content in mountain divs. Now we read of a BRO jawan Zalim Singh getting Shaurya Chakra for clearing roads in Sikkim for armoured formations, and I start remembering all those old articles in India Today... Now regarding which div is candidate for RAMID conversion, Rohit's guess about 21 has merit to it as well. As for 4 Corps being burdened with an oversize AOR, well, maybe one day it may be split into two corps. What may be equally likely is that in case the situation gets hot, 3 Corps will move northwards and assume responsibility for a part of LAC. 3 Corps again. A Corps for all seasons and all reasons.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 05 Oct 2009 05:03

I recall a news release a few months about BSF raising new units and establishing new cantonments in Assam. It is possible that this could be linked to the anti insurgency responsibilities being passed to assam rifles.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 05 Oct 2009 05:09

Centre to raise 29 new battalions of BSF
June 07, 2009 22:06 IST

CommentThe Union government has decided to augment the presence of Border Security Force along the 4096-kilometer-long frontier with Bangladesh especially within North eastern states where difficult topography has been a hurdle for border vigil.

The frontier with Bangladesh has been used by the terror groups from to sneak into that country in search of safe heavens. Moreover, alleged illegal migration from Bangladesh through porous border in the North East has been a major issue.

BSF Director-General M L Kumawat said in Shillong that New Delhi [ Images ] has decided to raise 29 additional battalions of the BSF and set up over 500 new Border Outposts, most of which will be located along the porous and sensitive frontier with Bangladesh in the Northeast. Currently, over 70 BSF battalions are deployed along the Indo-Bangla border as well as for counter-insurgency operations in the North East.

For ensuring greater level of vigil along the frontier with Bangladesh in the North East, distance between two BoPs will be reduced to present 4.5 kilometer to 2.8 kilometer considering the peculiar topography of the region. The ideal distance between two BoPs should be 3.5 kilometer. For the purpose 383 new BoPs will be set up along the Bangladesh frontier in the region.

Kumawat informed in response to concern raised by New Delhi about presence of Indian terror groups on Bangladesh soil, the new government in the neighbouring country has already started acting against Indian terrorist outfits including those from North East operating from their soil forcing those outfits to desperately look for safe sanctuaries elsewhere.

The Assam police earlier claimed that the most wanted militant leader Paresh Baruah, commander in chief of the outlawed United Liberation Front of Asom, might have shifted his location to Yunan province of China from Bangladesh .He had been in Bangladesh since 1990 under the name of Kamruz Zaman Khan and set up a big business empire in that country.

BSF may have to share the anti isurgency reposnibility with AR

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 05 Oct 2009 07:47

India’s next big buy is a missile from US

BY : DNA

India is looking at the possibility of yet another major government-to-government military deal with the United States.

The army headquarters is in the advanced stages of evaluating the Javelin anti-tank missile for large-scale induction. If the missile suits India, it could lead to another FMS (foreign military sale) deal with the US, without competitive international tendering, and possibly even without extensive field trials.

The arrangement, if it works out, would be a strong signal about India’s intention to continue taking in US military products despite hiccups in bilateral ties that cropped up since the Obama administration took charge in the US. Sources said the deal could run into several hundred million dollars.

It is not clear how the induction of Javelin would affect the indigenously developed Nag anti-tank missiles, which were cleared for production this July after two decades of trials and research. The Indian Army has ordered 443 Nag missiles and 13 missile carriers.

Since the Nag was on the drawing board for several years, the Army started desperately looking for new generation anti-tank missiles to penetrate modern day tanks. As of now, the Army has old Milan
missiles, a European product, and the Russian Konkours, both of which are manufactured in India under licence at the Bharat Dynamics Limited.

Last summer, India was looking to purchase the Israeli anti-tank missile, Spike, but that plan had to be abandoned after the missile failed miserably at the trials in Pokhran. It may just be a coincidence that the Army has not opted for international competitive tendering for buying the missile, and it fits into the larger trend emerging in military purchases — of minimal competitive tendering, and preference for non-tender purchases.

Beneficiaries of this easy route are Israel, US, and to some extent Russia. While purchases from Israel and US are mostly new, Russia is the beneficiary of “repeat orders” on the Sukhoi-30 MKI and MIG-29K fighters as well as helicopters.

http://idrw.org/?p=1143#more-1143

if spike can fail in pokhran ,so can javelin hope they conduct necessary test before purchase .why we don't have any local development of man portable ATM ?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Oct 2009 13:43

@YI Patel: Thank you for the excellent post, especially wrt the likely movement of 57 Mountain Division to lower Assam. I've my thoughts on the new raisings and how they may pan out; time permitting, will post it for review of BRF members

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Oct 2009 13:46

javelin would overlap with Milan-NG which BDL was rumored to produce. Konkurs has never been hand held in IA and only seem in BMP2? Nag, TOW2 and Kornet are the heavy vehicle mounted weapons.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Oct 2009 13:47

rohitvats wrote:@YI Patel: Thank you for the excellent post, especially wrt the likely movement of 57 Mountain Division to lower Assam. I've my thoughts on the new raisings and how they may pan out; time permitting, will post it for review of BRF members

Do also give a thought to the overlapping command and control!

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Oct 2009 13:53

Paul wrote:
Centre to raise 29 new battalions of BSF
June 07, 2009 22:06 IST
.....
BSF may have to share the anti isurgency reposnibility with AR

Viz a viz PRC it makes more sense to watch ITBP and SSB. Both of these forces have seen additional companies in existing battalions plus additional battalions as well. Amid the talk of expansion of Indian Army the silent 'rise' of ITBP has gone unnoticed.

The BSF gets increased strengh for Bangladesh border only. The force is now fully re-oriented to its original mission of border security. In initial days of J&K terrorism many battalions were pulled away from the Bangadesh border, now these battalions have returned + new raising.

AR, also expanded, is now entrusted with Burma border + NE COIN.

On PRC, Since 1999;

* India's position has greatly improved in the number of boots that can be fielded on the ground. We can also count on Rashtriya Rifles troops to chip in when the balloon goes up (like in Kargil War). BSF wont be much of a help due to lack of acclimatisation for high altitude. CRPF will be tied up in COIN esp anti-maowadi ops

* Logistics capability has improved with slow, but steady widening of roads in border areas. I have myself seen the hectic work that is ongoing in Sikkim. Plus IAF effort to activate forward strips.

* Artillery is stagnant

* Armour is stagnant

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 05 Oct 2009 14:02

I thought that ITBP also needs massive increase in no.s and equipment, so whats happening on China border watch front. Further now that ULFA is sitting in China then what about Burma border?

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 05 Oct 2009 14:09

Aditya G wrote: Viz a viz PRC it makes more sense to watch ITBP and SSB. Both of these forces have seen additional companies in existing battalions plus additional battalions as well. Amid the talk of expansion of Indian Army the silent 'rise' of ITBP has gone unnoticed.

AR, also expanded, is now entrusted with Burma border + NE COIN.

Can you give more open source details about rise of ITBP, SSB & AR?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Oct 2009 09:13

So Nag also petered out. Add to that Trishul, Akash.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Oct 2009 11:37

ramana wrote:So Nag also petered out. Add to that Trishul, Akash.

The Javelin/Konkurs/MILAN are not interchangeable with NAG. While the former are man portable, the latter is for use by dedicated carriers like NAMICA. BTW, NAMICA is a perfect candidate for use for Recce & Support Regiments and dedicated AT Regiments@ say, 1 per Corps.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 07 Oct 2009 13:27

General Ken J Gillespie, Australian Army Chief with Lt. Gen. B.S. Jaswal, GoC-in-C Northern Command at Udhampur. (click for bigger pic)
Daily Excelsior
The Chief of the Australian Army General Ken J Gillespie today visited India’s largest defensive formation Northern Command at Udhampur, a Defence Ministry spokesman here said. Gen Gillespie, who was accompanied by Lt Col Michael Ryan and Capt (N) J D Mead, was accorded a very warm reception on arrival at the headquarters of the Northern Command.

"During his brief visit, Gen Gillespie held a cordial discussion with Lt Gen B S Jaswal, General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, and other senior Army officers of the Northern Command Headquarters," the spokesman said. The guest officer was also briefed about the operational and functional aspects of the Northern Command, which is the most sensitive formation of Indian Army, he added.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 07 Oct 2009 13:29

Time Jamwal reduces!

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 07 Oct 2009 13:55

Jamwal who?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 07 Oct 2009 14:02

A clan in J&K?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Oct 2009 14:06

It is Jaswal.
But that photo is not sized correctly, it is horizontally compressed, however correcting for that the point about him reducing is very valid.

What is the incidence of obesity in the army? How do the armed forces view obesity wrt job performance and promotions?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Oct 2009 14:12

Gagan wrote:What is the incidence of obesity in the army? How do the armed forces view obesity wrt job performance and promotions?

Well a few years back there was a scheme to put both frontal and profile photos in ACR. Armed forces also have weight guidelines among the fitness rules and I believe BMI was going to become a factor in ACRs too.

I dont know what came of that scheme.

But this for pot belly mostly, obesity I haven't heard about or seen.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Oct 2009 14:43

ramana wrote:So Nag also petered out. Add to that Trishul, Akash.

apples and oranges. NAG is a much heavier class of missile corresponding to the hellfire while MILAN/Javelins are MANPATGMS.

armies use both, a heavy vehicle mounted missile of the hellfire class and a MANPATGM. there is no reason why it should be any different for IA unless it intends to fight a completely different war.

for example :
nag class missile in bold fonts.
MANPATGMs underlined.

USA : hellfire javelin
UK : brimstone javelin(replacing MILAN)

further proof that DRDO/IGMDP was on the right track regarding nag is the fact that the germans are pursuing a very similar class of missile called the PARS 3LR. french will also use it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PARS_3_LR

there is again the very similar brimstone in brit service
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brimstone_missile