Indian Army: News & Discussion

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ParGha
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ParGha » 14 Sep 2010 03:54

Jagan wrote:Whats "Ledo"? TIA

Named after the famed Ledo Road of the Burma Theater? (Guessing here)

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Sep 2010 09:49

coal mining town in extreme eastern assam. has one of few pure tai ahom communities who speak the tai language
and follow the old religion. if you notice, the ahoms buried their dead in mounds called 'maidams' ... some royal maidams exist in sibsagar.\

the burma road is more well known as "stillwell road" I think after a american general.
famous pic of the hairpin bends here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ledo_Road

NER got screwed in multiple ways - east pakistan cut off its natural trade route to the sea. and the closure of the border due to maoist
govts in china and myanmar deprived it of its closest trading areas. bordering it on west were the BIMARU clan and WB - hardly the model
of industrial productivity.

and the situation has hardly changed.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sum » 14 Sep 2010 21:09

Rohitvats-ji,
Could you please re-post the orbat you posted some time back of the China facing units of the IA? ( Unable to locate it)

Just wanted to compare with the current info given out by R.Prasannan in his article and get a better picture..

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rupesh » 14 Sep 2010 21:10

X-Posted

Whose man is that soldier fighting in Kashmir?

India must be the only country in the world where being an antinational murderer means a person or organization getting invitations for talks with the government. Mir Waiz and Geelani should have been booked months ago and punished for their anti-India activities. They not only instigated Kashmiri youth to attack our patriotic people and soldiers but also vitiated the entire atmosphere in the valley bringing normal life to a halt and using Kashmiri youth as fodder for their Pakistani plots, resulting in so many killings of young boys. The fact of the matter is that the killers in Kashmir are these two pro-Pakistani elements, who would have been taken to task by any government with a spine much earlier than their fangs grew more poisonous. In such a situation, instead of talking tough and straight, the government is not only giving confused signals to ‘soften’ (whatever that means) the Armed Forces Special Powers Act but making gestures to terrorist supporters to come to talk. Talks, always a welcome way to find a solution, can be held or even an indication for a discussion can be sent only when the atmosphere is ripe for it and the other side, offenders in this case, show a willingness to come to terms. I must say Prime Minister Manmohan Singh sounded reasonable at the Armed Forces commanders’ meet on September 13 when he said: "The youth of Kashmir are our citizens and their grievances have to be addressed….We are willing to talk to every person or group which abjures violence, within the framework of our Constitution." But is this the time to extend an olive branch?

Have they ever thought what effect these gestures by the government have on the morale of the soldiers?

For whom is the Indian soldier fighting the battle in Kashmir?


He is despised, hated and made responsible for all the bad happenings, in a sweeping manner. No one has treid to see the hardened daily routine a soldier is subjected to from 6am to sunset, and after that the night vigil. Anything untoward happens and rogue actors like Salman Khan say meekly to the Pakistan media: Oh, it was the fault of the Indian security personnel. Salman should have been tried for treason. But we have people who lovingly go to his house and try to ‘settle the issue’. These very people and their governors make this day possible when anyone feels free to speak against the soldiers, against the national psyche of patriotism. A soldier is not a daily wage earner like the stone pelters. He is a representative of the nation’s time-honoured traditions. He is nurtured and nourished on a family's "khandaani izzat" - "Mera beta fauji hai". Ask any politician acting as an apologist for the separatist murderers, has he ever thought of sending his child to the forces? A family offers mannats at the feet of their wahe guru over devatas to ensure their son gets selected in the "fauj". He is trained by the best of the warriors at the National Defence Academy or the Indian Military Academy. Some lucky ones get selected early and go through the National Defence School route and see the pictures when they recommissioned - after a thrilling passing out parade in Dehradun. Their caps in the air and their moms and dads hugging them with moist eyes. Years of training and a life of a great Indian patriotic goes waste before the gang of rogue pro-Pakistan elements who have hardly any idea what they are demanding.


Why do I still serve you?

How you play with us, did you ever see?
At Seven, I had decided what I wanted to be;
I would serve you to the end,
All these boundaries I would defend.

Now you make me look like a fool,
When at seventeen and just out of school;
Went to the place where they made "men out of boys"
Lived a tough life …sacrificed a few joys…

In those days, I would see my "civilian" friends,
Living a life with the fashion trends;
Enjoying their so called "college days"
While I sweated and bled in the sun and haze…
But I never thought twice about what where or why
All I knew was when the time came, I'd be ready to do or die.

At 21 and with my commission in hand,
Under the glory of the parade and the band,
I took the oath to protect you over land, air or sea,
And make the supreme sacrifice when the need came to be.

I stood there with a sense of recognition,
But on that day I never had the premonition,
that when the time came to give me my due,
You'd just say, "What is so great that you do?"

Long back you promised a well-to-do life;
And when I'm away, take care of my wife.
You came and saw the hardships I live through,
And I saw you make a note or two,
And I hoped you would realise the worth of me;
but now I know you'll never be able to see,
Because you only see the glorified life of mine,
Did you see the place where death looms all the time?
Did you meet the man standing guard in the snow?
The name of his newborn he does not know...
Did you meet the man whose father breathed his last?
While the sailor patrolled our seas so vast?

You still know I'll not be the one to raise my voice
I will stand tall and protect you in Punjab Himachal and Thois.

But that's just me you have in the sun and rain,
For now at twenty-four, you make me think again;
About the decision I made, seven years back;
Should I have chosen another life, some other track?

Will I tell my son to follow my lead?
Will I tell my son, you'll get all that you need?
This is the country you will serve
This country will give you all that you deserve?

I heard you tell the world "India is shining"
I told my men, that's a reason for us to be smiling
This is the India you and I will defend!
But tell me how long will you be able to pretend?
You go on promise all that you may,
But it's the souls of your own men you betray.

Did you read how some of our eminent citizens
Write about me and ridicule my very existence?
I ask you to please come and see what I do,
Come and have a look at what I go through
Live my life just for a day
Maybe you'll have something else to say?

I will still risk my life without a sigh
To keep your flag flying high
but today I ask myself a question or two…
Oh India…. Why do I still serve you?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 14 Sep 2010 23:15

Received by email

Brig ML Khetrapal father of 2/Lt Arun Khetrapal,PVC died recently. The story below is about the young Khetrapal and his father's journey to Pakistan many years after his son's gallant sacrifice..Read on!



My son goes to Sanawar, a school up in the Himalayas. It used to be a Military school (154 years old) and like any old school, Sanawar has its fair share of heroes amongst its old students. One such hero from that school that I want to write about is
2nd Lieutenant Arun Khetarpal, son of Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal. He was born on
14 October 1950, in Pune, Maharashtra. He was commissioned in the 17 Poona Horse on 13 June 1971, just a few months before the Indo-Pakistan 1971 war. The story of his heroism is as follows:

During the 1971 Indo-Pak War, the 47 Infantry Brigade, with the 17 Poona Horse under command, was ordered to establish a bridge-head across the Basantar river in Shakargarh sector. The 47 Inf. Bde. completed the task by 2100 hours on December 15th.. It was now for the engineers to breach the Pakistani mine-fields and make a safe lane for the induction of the 17 Poona Horse in support of the bridge-head.

While the engineers were half way through their task, the Indian troops at the bridge-head reported alarming activity of the Pakistani armour. They requested immediate tank support. But the mine-field had been cleared only partially by that time. At this critical juncture, the 17 Poona Horse decided to push through the mine-field come what may. By
first light on December 16th, the regiment established a link-up between the armour and the infantry at the bridge-head.

At 0800 hours, the Pakistanis made a counter-attack with an armoured regiment, under the cover of a smoke-screen. The target was the regimental pivot at Jarpal. As the Indians troops were heavily outnumbered, the Commander of 'B' Squadron requested reinforcement. At that time, 2nd Lt. Khetarpal was positioned close to the squadron with
his troops in two tanks. He answered the call and moved out to face the Pakistani attack.
On the way, his troops came under fire from Pakistani strong points and recoilless gun nests, in the bridge-head zone.

2nd Lt. Khetarpal fiercely attacked these strong-points, over-ran Pakistani defences and captured many Pakistani soldiers and recoilless guns at gun point. During one of these attacks, the commander of his second tank was killed on the spot leaving him alone. But he continued attack on the Pakistani strongholds single-handed, until all the Pakistani positions were overwhelmed. He then raced to the 'B'Squadron position. By the time he reached there, the Pakistani tanks were on the retreat. He pursued and destroyed one of these tanks. The 'B' Squadron Commander could persuade him to fall back in line after
great difficulty.

The Pakistanis soon reformed for a second attack. This time they chose the sector held by 2nd Lt. Arun Khetarpal and two other Officers, for the main attack. The Pakistani employed a complete armoured squadron against these three tanks in order to achieve a breakthrough.

A fierce tank battle followed. As many as ten Pakistani tanks were destroyed and of these 2nd Lieutenant Khetarpal alone destroyed four... In the thick of the battle, two of the three Indian tanks became casualties-one was hit and another suffered mechanical failure.

The third tank, which was 2nd Lt. Khetarpal's tank, also received a shot and burst into flames. The Commander of the tank troops ordered 2nd Lt. Khetarpal to abandon the burning tank. But realising the useful role of his tank in preventing a breakthrough he communicated the following message to his Commander: "No Sir, I will not abandon my
tank. My gun is still working and I will get these guys."

Then he set about destroying the remaining Pakistani tanks. The last Pakistani tank which he shot was barely 100 metres from his position. At this stage his tank received a second hit. The brave Officer met his death denying the Pakistani the intended breakthrough.

For his conspicuous gallantry in the face of the Pakistani, 2nd Lt. Arun Khetarpal was honoured with the highest wartime gallantry medal, the Param Vir Chakra, posthumously.

He was the youngest Indian to win this highest award. The Indo-Pakistan war of 1971, nearly 38 years ago is history for most of us.

However a strange sequel was to follow for the Khetarpal family.

Many years later, India and Pakistan established 'people to people' contacts between both the nations. This was also known as 'Twin Track Diplomacy'.

Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal, father of 2nd Lt. Khetarpal started receiving messages that a certain Brigadier from the Pakistani army was keen to meet him. However since he did not know this particular Brigadier, Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal did not do anything to encourage the meeting.

In 2001, Brigadier M.L. Khetarpa, now 81 years old, felt a strong desire to visit his birthplace, at Sargodha, now in Pakistan. It was a wish that he thought that would never materialize, but when he voiced it to some friends engaged in the Twin Track Diplomacy, they arranged all his papers, visas, travel and staying arrangements in Pakistan so
that he could go for the visit.

At Lahore airport, Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal was met by Brigadier Khawja Mohammad Naser, who took it upon himself to be Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal host and guide. Brigadier Naser really went out of way to ensure that Brigadier M..L. Khetarpal had a satisfying and nostalgic visit to his old house in Sargodha. Upon his return to Lahore he was once again the guest of Brigadier Naser for three days.

Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal was overwhelmed by the extreme kindness, deference, courtesy and respect bestowed upon him by Brigadier Naser, all the members of his family and his many servants.

As the countdown for the departure progressed, the bonds of friendship between the
guests and the host grew stronger and stronger. However Brigadier Khetarpal felt that something was amiss but could not make out what it was. Was it the long silences that punctuated their animated conversation or was it the look of compassion in the eyes of the women in the family. He could not make out. However what was certain was that he would always remember the hospitality, warmth and affection of this Pakistani family who treated him as someone very very special.

Finally at the last night before Brigadier M.L.Khetarpal' s departure, Brigadier Naser said 'Sir there is something that I wanted to tell you for many years but I did not know how to get through to you. Finally fate has intervened and sent you to me as an honoured
guest.

The last few days we have become close to one another and that has made my task even more difficult. It is regarding your son who is of course a national hero in India. However on that fateful day, your son and I were soldiers, unknown to one another, fighting for the
respect and safety of our respective countries. I regret to tell you that your son died in my hands. Arun's courage was exemplary and he moved his tank with fearless courage and daring, totally unconcerned about his safety. Tank casualties were very high till finally there were just two of us left facing one another. We both fired simultaneously. It was destined that I was to live and he was to die.

It is only later that I got to know how young he was and who he was. We are trained to fight and kill without mercy or remorse. We do in war what we have to without thinking too much about it. However we are humans too and sometimes war takes a personal turn and makes an impact on the inner self..

I had all along thought that I would ask your forgiveness, but in telling the story I realize that there is nothing to forgive. Instead I salute your son for what he did at such a young age and I salute you too, because I know how he grew into such a young man. In the end it is character and values that matter."

Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal was silent as he did not know how to react. To be faced with the person who killed his son, and also to be enjoying his hospitality and being his guest is a confusing feeling. However Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal immediately realized that Brigadier
Naser was genuinely wanting, in some way to compensate for something that he did only in the line of duty. The soldier must do what he has been trained to do unhesitatingly, and with full resolve and determination.

Both the Brigadiers retired for the night deep in thought. There are never any victors in war, both sides lose and it is the families that have to pay the price and suffer the most.

As someone once said ' Wars are created by politicians, compounded by bureaucrats and fought by soldiers.

The next day photographs were taken and Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal returned back to Delhi. Later the photos reached Delhi along with a note from Brigadier Naser that said:

With Warmest regards and utmost sincerity, To: Brigadier M.L.Khetarpal, father of Shaheed Second Lieutenant Arun Khetarpal, PVC, who stood like an unsurmountable rock, between the victory and failure, of the counter attack by the 'SPEARHEADS' 13 LANCERS on 16 December 1971 in the battle of "Bara Pind' as we call it and battle of
"Basantar' as 17 Poona Horse remembers.

Khawja Mohammad Naser, 13 Lancers (Pakistan Army)
02 March 2001
Lahore, Pakistan

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 14 Sep 2010 23:17

sum wrote:Rohitvats-ji,
Could you please re-post the orbat you posted some time back of the China facing units of the IA? ( Unable to locate it)

Just wanted to compare with the current info given out by R.Prasannan in his article and get a better picture..


Yaar, yeh ji wi hata do.

Posted this recently in the POK News section as clarification to the jumbled up numbers given by Prasannan. :D

Earlier IV Corps had 21/5/2 Mountain Divisions. III Corps had only 57 Mountain Division.

Post new raisings and realignment of AOR, IV Corps has 21/5/55(new) Mountain Division. III Corps has 2/56(new)/57 Mountain Division.

XXXIII in Sikkim has 17/20/27 Mountain Divisions. 23rd ID based in Ranchi should be considered as given in case of conflict. That is 10 Mountain/Infantry Divisions.

Plus, the news about Mountain Strike HQ for NE - this will add at least another two more Divisions. IMO, III Corps is more for defence of Eastern AP and Burma border.


For the Central LAC in Uttarakhand - there is an Independent Infantry Brigade in this area. 6 Mountain Division (AHQ Reserve) will most probably be used in this sector in case of shooting match with lizard. It is based in Bareilly in UP at the foothills of this Sector. Another Independent Infantry Brigade sanctioned by GOI.

Himachal Pradesh - AFAIK, supported by ITBP.

Ladakh - 3rd Infantry Division in Leh with Independent Brigade for Siachen and another Brigade worth/equivalent (mainly Ladakh Scouts) of troops in Thoise called the Partapur Sector. Another Independent Infantry Brigade sanctioned by GOI.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 14 Sep 2010 23:41

Chetak: I've come across this before. Every time I read it, it brings tears to my eyes.

That being said, one of the things we need to keep in mind is that (this incident notwithstanding), we should not make the mistake of attributing human emotions/feelings to the Pakistan Army. As the 1971 genocide in Bangladesh & their treatment of Saurabh Kalia testify, they are inhuman pests - worthy of nothing but extermination.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 15 Sep 2010 00:10

Prem Kumar wrote:Chetak: I've come across this before. Every time I read it, it brings tears to my eyes.

That being said, one of the things we need to keep in mind is that (this incident notwithstanding), we should not make the mistake of attributing human emotions/feelings to the Pakistan Army. As the 1971 genocide in Bangladesh & their treatment of Saurabh Kalia testify, they are inhuman pests - worthy of nothing but extermination.



I see your point Prem Kumar ji.

Individual cases generally and on rare occasions I have heard of such incidents where they have gone out of their way to appreciate the valor of our soldiers.

As indeed we ourselves often have.

Sometimes when the fighting is done, strange meetings take place. Some personal effects are sought, other times something is offered or returned without expectation of reciprocation.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 15 Sep 2010 03:57

Indian, Thai armies to hold joint exercise from Thursday

New Delhi, Sep 14 (PTI) Indian and Thai armies will participate in a 14-day exercise, with a focus on counter- terrorism operations, in Jharkhand as part of efforts to boost inter-operability between the two forces.

Personnel from the Gorkha regiment and Royal Thailand Army will take part in the exercise -- ''Maitree 2010''-- starting this Thursday at Ramgarh Cantt near Ranchi.

The two armies will focus on the counter-terrorism operations in the urban scenario during the military exercise which is part of efforts aimed at enhancing cooperation between the two countries in the areas of defence and security, army officials said here.

"This exercise would mutually help both countries in gaining experience and expertise through joint cooperation and inter-operability and this will be one of the pegs of the exercise," they added.

The Royal Thailand Army will be represented by five officers and 44 soldiers and will be complimented by equal number of officers and jawans from the Gorkha regiment, they said.

As part of its ''Look East'' policy, India has been making efforts to expand military and economic ties with countries in South East Asia such as Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby yogi » 15 Sep 2010 11:10

Govt revises Union War Book to meet current situation

The new Union War Book, which is with the Cabinet Committee of Security for the final nod, lays down action plans in minute details to meet any contingency during war. It spells out, for instance, how air, train and other services will be commandeered in times of national emergency. It also provides the basis for forward deployment of military assets like the movement of a Mirage-2000 fighter squadron from Gwalior to say Ambala or Leh.

"It's the Bible for us. All commanding officers get extracts, marked secret/top-secret, which flow from the Union War Book about where his unit will be stationed and what role it will play during war,'' said an Army officer. The Union War Book was last taken up for implementation during Operation Parakram, the 10-month-long forward troop mobilisation launched in the aftermath of the December 2001 terrorist attack, when India almost went to war with Pakistan.
.
.
.
And now, as was first reported by TOI, the Army war doctrine is undergoing yet another revision to effectively meet the challenges of a possible `two-front war' with China and Pakistan in a worst-case scenario, deal with asymmetric and fourth-generation warfare, enhance strategic reach and joint operations with IAF and Navy. The revision in the Union War Book is in keeping with the times.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Airavat » 17 Sep 2010 08:43


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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shukla » 18 Sep 2010 14:39

AFSP Act not harsh, says Army Chief

Armed Forces Special Powers Act is neither arbitrary nor against the Constitution of India, says Chief of Army Staff Vijay Kumar Singh. Vijay Kumar said this after reviewing the 90th passing- out parade of the cadets of the Officers Training Academy (OTA) at St Thomas Mount near Chennai.

Referring to the talks held by the Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir Omar Abdullah with the Centre to withdraw the Act, the Chief of Army Staff said, ‘The Army has given its views on the issue and it is up to the government to decide upon it.’ ‘The Centre is holding talks to discuss the issue,’ he added. Talking to reporters, Vijay Kumar said, ‘The infiltrations in the Jammu and Kashmir region have escalated in the past few months.’ ‘But the overall violence in the region has considerably come down,’ he added.

He said that violent acts could be linked with Pakistan which, he said, was trying to exploit the situation. However, the number of terrorists killed has increased, he added. To a question on Divya Ajith Kumar, the first lady to receive the ‘sword of honour’, he said, ‘It is not a matter of gender here. One who deserves to play the role of a leader has been awarded.’

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 18 Sep 2010 14:46

What it the COAS been reduced to, defending the provisions of a law passed by the parliament of India in front of his young officers. Is this not the job of the GOI to defend the laws made by it?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 19 Sep 2010 05:29

It should be AKAji's job. But INC bigwigs let the others sweat it out while the consolidate votebanks.

Rohitvats, What is the paratroop strength of IA? Can they constitute the paras into brigade level formations? And can the mtn div elements be air lifted? If so how many?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 19 Sep 2010 08:20

Prem Kumar wrote:Chetak: I've come across this before. Every time I read it, it brings tears to my eyes.



Absolutely.

More on this below - watch from 1 min 50 sec to 5 min 20 sec
http://www.youtube.com/cybersurg#p/u/42/I2EtAltIBqQ

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 19 Sep 2010 08:35

Regarding the Khetrepals(SP?), I read the passage in the book Param Vir and thought, may be, just may be. If that nation had more people like the brigadier. The history of Pakistan may have been diffrent. Having said so, I don't for a moment believe that there may have been pease with India. But it would not be the basket case it is today.

That is my personal read into the whole story.

JMT.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 19 Sep 2010 15:51

ramana wrote:It should be AKAji's job. But INC bigwigs let the others sweat it out while the consolidate votebanks.

Rohitvats, What is the paratroop strength of IA? Can they constitute the paras into brigade level formations? And can the mtn div elements be air lifted? If so how many?


ramana,

We have a dedicated Parachute brigade based out of Agra - the 50(I) Para Brigade. It has all the parachute qualified support elements integral to an Independent infantry Brigade like engineers, arty, medical etc. It is a well oiled formation and IMO, the only Rapid Reaction Force that we have. Apart from that, the Parachute Regiment has 10 Battalions of which 7 are now Special Forces (SF). So, you can have a Brigade with two Parachute Battalions and one SF Battalion for any operation.

The problem is with ability to paradrop all of this at one go. I think we can manage one battalion at one go. Balance will need to come at later stages.

As for Mountain Division elements - well, there is nothing extraordinary about Mountain Divisions - except for some modifications in terms of equipment held and scale of other holdings. We sure can airlifrt a brigade worth - we did that in Chequreboard and Op. Trident (where we airlifted a division worth to Leh)

I'm assuming you're question is with respect to NA developments. Let me go out on a limb and create a scenario which I think you're alluding to - Paratroopers take over an airfield, somthing like Skardu or Gilgit and we then fly in Mountain troops. In such a scenario, we can sure airlift troops. For that, we need acclimatized troops, which can come from formtions already in high-altitude deployment. 3rd Div has a reserve brigade and this can be used for this role. This brigade itself can be replaced by bringing in troops from reserve formations in plains.

Airlift of arty and engineering equipment will take some time and will need to come in secondary waves. Here again, a Field Regiment worth of troops can be airlifted in second wave itself.

Hope this answers your query.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby vaibhav.n » 19 Sep 2010 18:41

^
rohit saar,

The Regiment has three regular parachute battalions, then why would the para bde be manned by a SF battalion. I thought this was only done for rotation for CI ops for units to be rotated through(one para and the SF battalion) the same goes also for the two Para Arty units. Is this the new bde orbat?? Heard the IA wanted the new Hercules to be based out of Agra, but the IAF top brass shot down the request. Is this correct??

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 19 Sep 2010 20:06

The SF units have their own tasks cut out and would doubt that they are available for part of a brigade ops

- something they are not going to be inclined anyway.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 19 Sep 2010 20:08

From the horses mouth

By I. Ramamohan Rao

New Delhi, July 1 (ANI): I was surprised when I read in the newspapers that one of the reasons for the poor turnout at the funeral of Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw was the confusion about his rank in the warrant of precedence issued by the Government of India. It was mentioned that while the Chiefs of Staff of Army, the Navy and the Air Force have a warrant of precedence, a Field Marshal does not have one other than that he had when he was in service.



Sam Manekshaw only had the warrant of precedence as the Chief of Army Staff. Hence the confusion as to what kind of a funeral that should be given to him and who should be present at the final farewell. The Government had to take a special decision that Sam Manekshaw should have a state funeral. In India, we have to learn to honour our brave soldiers.



As Public Relations Officer for the Army between 1969 and 1973 in New Delhi, I was a witness to the pettiness that Sam Manekshaw aroused among many bureaucrats.



In the Army, it was expected that Sam Manekshaw would be promoted to the rank of a Field Marshal in recognition of his role in leading the Armed Forces to a glorious victory in the war against Pakistan. The 12- day war saw the birth of Bangladesh as a new nation, and the surrender of 93,000 Pakistani soldiers.



From what I know, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, who had led the nation during the eventful period, wanted to promote Manekshaw to the rank of a Field Marshal and make him the Chief of Defence Staff (CDS). She sent a communication to the effect in March 1972 through her Principal Secretary P.N. Haksar to the Defence Ministry.



The Defence Ministry thought it fit to get the comments of the Navy and the Air Force. While the Navy, then headed by Admiral S.M. Nanda, agreed to the proposal, the Air Force, then headed by Air Chief Marshal P.C. Lal, opposed it.



In his own words, Air Chief Marshal Lal told the Government: "The three Services had operated as equal partners in the Bangladesh war, and they had demonstrated their ability to work effectively together without having a Super Chief sitting over them....I saw in the proposed arrangement a positive danger to the frank and free discussion, particularly if the CDS happened to be excessively assertive and intolerant of the ideas of others."

The file on the subject made many rounds in the Services Headquarters, the Ministry of Defence and the Prime Minister's Office.



Ultimately, it was decided that Sam Manekshaw would be given the rank of a Field Marshal fifteen days before he was to hand over his office to General Gopal Gurunath Bewoor, then Chief of the Southern Command.



Sam Manekshaw was also told that the rank did not carry any special pay. He wanted to find out from the Defence Ministry whether he would get his salary after he handed over the office of Chief of Army Staff. For, the convention was that a Field Marshal would never retire and would get the salary of the rank till his death.



Sam Manekshaw was told that there was no special pay that he would be entitled to as Field Marshal and he would get the pension due to him as Chief of Army Staff after he handed over his office. The whole package of pension those days amounted to a princely sum of around Rs. 1,600 a month!



I was also connected with the 'controversy' that surrounded the ceremony when Sam Manekshaw was to be given the epaulettes of the rank and the Field Marshal's baton by President V.V. Giri., who had readily agreed to the proposal. A senior bureaucrat in the Ministry of Defence told me that the function was going to be 'simple' and there was no need to invite the press.



My mentor in the Directorate, Col V. Longer, had moved earlier to the Cabinet Secretariat and the then Director of the organization had proceeded on leave. I quietly went to the Press Secretary to the President late Abdul Hamid, and sought his help.



Abdul Hamid assured me that he would invite the media and ensure that the function during when the President was to present Sam Manekshaw the Field Marshal's baton secured the publicity it deserved. The media stands were overflowing and the function received national and international attention. I felt vindicated.



When I was questioned, I responded that the Rashtrapathi Bhavan made the arrangements.



Justice was done to Field Marshal Sam Bahadur last year when President Abdul Kalam saw him at his bedside in Ooty. Soon after Defence Minister A.K. Antony got government sanction to granting him full pay from the time he was granted the rank and sent the then Defence Secretary with a cheque of Rs. 1.16 crores as pay and past arrears.



Perhaps the Defence Minister forgot to send a proposal to the Government to revise the Warrant of Precedence.



I am sure God did not ask Field Marshal Sam 'Bahadur' Manekshaw his rank in the Warrant of Precedence before admitting him to Heaven.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 19 Sep 2010 20:49

vaibhav.n wrote:^
rohit saar,

The Regiment has three regular parachute battalions, then why would the para bde be manned by a SF battalion. I thought this was only done for rotation for CI ops for units to be rotated through(one para and the SF battalion) the same goes also for the two Para Arty units. Is this the new bde orbat?? Heard the IA wanted the new Hercules to be based out of Agra, but the IAF top brass shot down the request. Is this correct??


True. Considering that one of the Para battalions is away on CI Ops, I don't think IA will withdraw the same, bring it back to Agra and then mount an operation. They will make do with whatever is available at the moment and any contigency would have been factored into the equation. AFAIK, each Command in IA is to have a dedicated SF Unit in future.

I do not have information about the basing of C-130J. As per public info, the same are to be based in Hindon.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 19 Sep 2010 20:53

Surya wrote:The SF units have their own tasks cut out and would doubt that they are available for part of a brigade ops

- something they are not going to be inclined anyway.


Surya, it is a matter of numbers. Nothing else. We don't have enough Parachute Regiments to man the Bde at all times - without disturbing the sectoral and operational exposure of the Para Battalions. AFAIK, there are talks of more Para Battalions to be raised in future. Till then, I think this structure will hold.

Another thing - as for the SF role, in case the IA intends to mount an airfield and important town grabbing operation in NA, it will need SF units to play the role that US Army Ranger Regiment does - of a super elite infantry capable of complex operations.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 21 Sep 2010 00:24

rohitvats, Thanks. So how many such far away targets can be taken out. I am thinking of a rolling wave.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 21 Sep 2010 05:02

ramana wrote:rohitvats, Thanks. So how many such far away targets can be taken out. I am thinking of a rolling wave.


You're welcome, sir.

IMO, we can target one major center at one go and this may be Skardu. The limiting factor is likely to be the airlift capacity to haul the paratroopers. Ideal situation would be to target Skardu and Gilgit at one go....but for that we need enough trasnport to haul two Parachute Battalions and their follow on troops plus support elements.

But all this require certain pre-requisites to be met - (a) complete air superiority (b) immense pressure against PA along the entire border+LOC with special focus on the Kargil-Batalik-Turtok-Siachen sector. We will need to ensure that PA cannot commit reserve troops (from within the FCNA Orbat) for counter ops against paratroopers and follow on forces. There needs to be a divisional level attack on PA along this sector to hem in their troops.

We will also need to build a land bridge to these troops. This will follow from above. Any and all lines of communication between NA and POK need to be blocked to prevent reinforcements. The NA Sector will need to be converted into a set-piece with all the moves in our hand.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 21 Sep 2010 08:18

Go back to drawing border and write it up as plan. Thanks, ramana

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby svinayak » 21 Sep 2010 10:33

rohitvats wrote:

But all this require certain pre-requisites to be met - (a) complete air superiority (b) immense pressure against PA along the entire border+LOC with special focus on the Kargil-Batalik-Turtok-Siachen sector. We will need to ensure that PA cannot commit reserve troops (from within the FCNA Orbat) for counter ops against paratroopers and follow on forces. There needs to be a divisional level attack on PA along this sector to hem in their troops.
.

Do we need to capture Karachi for this. Is that doable and is it the right diversion

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby jai » 21 Sep 2010 15:23

Do we need to capture Karachi for this


Given the distance between the two, I am not sure....and it will not be easy. Imagine an attack on Mumbai, would we ever give it away easy (or at any cost) if Pak attacked it ?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 21 Sep 2010 16:02

ramana wrote:Go back to drawing border and write it up as plan. Thanks, ramana


I will be doing as comprehensive an analysis as possible (with my limited knowledge) of war in Northern Sector - NA and LAC. It is just that it requires me to study lot of material and draw maps. It will take some time to achieve this.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 21 Sep 2010 16:04

Acharya wrote:
Do we need to capture Karachi for this. Is that doable and is it the right diversion


That will be the mother of all operations and iirc, very difficult given the resources. But a serious thrust in this sector - towards Karachi and Hyderabad - and gains for India will unnerve the TSP. I guess we'll be crossing the nuclear threshold if we ever reach a situation to take Karachi. Heck, TSP will cease to exist as a nation.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 21 Sep 2010 16:06

perhaps the amphib bde's are a thinking in that direction ? heck, we will be hard pressed to find any other use for them in Indo-pak context.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 21 Sep 2010 16:25

i think taking and holding karachi will be too costly
better to shut it down and open a second beach head nearby

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 21 Sep 2010 16:54

not capturing but an attack nearby in a threatening location would force V corps PA to commit forces there leaving IA's XIIth corps to exploit the situation.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 21 Sep 2010 16:56

Rahul M wrote:perhaps the amphib bde's are a thinking in that direction ? heck, we will be hard pressed to find any other use for them in Indo-pak context.


Sirji, the Amphibious Brigade can be put to very many uses - like landing on the flanks of TSPA in Sindh across our Gujarat. As for taking Karachi, we don't need to hold the city. A brigade IMO is too small a force to take on a huge metropolis like Karachi.

Your assessment of forcing TSPA to keep troops in reserve is one possible options. But we do need to increase this to a Division level to cause serious threat.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 21 Sep 2010 16:58

perhaps you missed my last post. I didn't mean taking the city, obviously a bde is not enough for that.
sorry for the misunderstanding. in fact an attack even west of karachi backed by strong IN commitment and air strikes would create a quite interesting situation. :wink:

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 21 Sep 2010 17:11

i would favour an aerial and naval attack on all logistics and communications nodes without landing ground forces, which will galvanise the beards into forming last ditch defences and human wave counter attacks
the idea being to cripple TSPA/F/N without getting bogged down in jehadiswatting

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 21 Sep 2010 20:53

Indigenous anti-mine, snow footwear for soldiers


Troops deployed in high-altitude and naxal-affected areas are set to get designer footwear to protect them from ‘anti-personnel’ mines and frost bite.

Indigenous anti-mine and snow boots designed by Footwear Design and Development Institute are on user trial by the Indian Army.

“The shoes made by FDDI along with other contenders are on user trial by the Army and a decision in this regard is expected to be taken soon,” said an Army official requesting anonymity.

“The present anti-mine shoe used by the army comes from the Czech Republic. It weighs around 4 kilograms and is uncomfortable. The shoe made by us is lighter at 2.9 kgs and is on trial,” says V B Parvatikar, Director (Technical) and the main architect of the shoes.
“The pressure in a mine blast is 45000kg/cm square. The anti-mine shoe’s shock absorption brings it down to 160kg/cm square. So, now, a soldier’s bones will get fractured in the worst cases where as earlier, they used to get powdered,” he says.

The anti-mine boot has passed the blast test and is a contribution to human welfare with the objective to reduce soft-tissue, bone and vascular injuries to the foot and leg of victims involved in antipersonnel mine explosions.

Anti-mine boots are combat design boot for troops with direct moulded polyether PU sole with chrome tanned leather upper lined with foam and vegetable tanned nappa leather.
Army’s MGO (Master General Ordnance) is looking for snow shoes for defence personnel at snow hound areas, high altitudes with snow cladded mountains, varying and difficult terrains.

“Frost bite is a major worry at higher altitudes. The present shoes being used now come from Italy and Russia. The snow shoe made by us has longer life,” says Parvatikar.
The outer shell of the snow boot is made of special plastic to withstand temperature from -60°C to 100°C. Its surface is highly scratch resistant and has high tear strength.

The outer sole is made of natural rubber for high skid resistance even at difficult terrains and in snow whereas the outer shell has been provided with special metallic (corrosion resistant) trims and flat laces for quick donning and doffing.

The inner shoe is made of leather, synthetic, textile and sample lining to provide snug fitting, warmth and comfort in higher altitudes.

While the life of the snow boot is longer, anti-mine shoe becomes useless after a mine blast.

“There are problems of supply as these shoes are imported at the moment and cost around 12,000 to 13,000 per pair. We have brought down the cost to 2,000 to 3,000,” says Parvatikar.


http://idrw.org/?p=1012

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 21 Sep 2010 21:11

Rohitvats, take your time. But make it look credible.Will keep in touch.

Can we have "Dieppe" style raid on Rawlapindi say from Srinagar?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby JimmyJ » 21 Sep 2010 22:44

Sukna land scam
Charging the authorities with launching a 'systemic campaign to victimise Rath', Pandey told the GCM, "The authorities are releasing classified and selected information to the media. Some media mentioned about a Rs 400 crore scam. Where is the scam and where is this Rs 400 crore?
"The media was not even aware that the land belonged to the West Bengal government. The entire issue has been blown out of proportion," Pandey said.



He said that there was no need to bring the case to this (GCM) stage when the act was no offence at all and there was no proof that Rath had ulterior motive.

"All manipulations were done to prevent him becoming the deputy chief of Army. His movements were restricted when he already had the posting order and was about to leave for Delhi. This is abnormal exercise of power by the authorities. While there were others involved in the act, Rath was singled out and meted out differential treatment," Pandey said.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby putnanja » 22 Sep 2010 03:52

Two Army officers die in Himalayan avalanche

Two Army officers died after their camp in the higher reaches of the Himalayas in Uttarakhand was hit by an avalanche on Sunday, according to information reaching the Army headquarters here.

The bodies of Lieutenant Colonel Poornachandra of 9 Para and Major Manish Gusain of 11 Kumaon were brought down to the advance base camp on Monday and airlifted to Joshimath on a clear day. A few personnel sustained cold injuries and they have descended to get medical treatment.
...
...


RIP Sirs :(

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 22 Sep 2010 05:41

MoD clears joint amphibious exercise at US base near China

A year after the Defence Ministry backed out of a military exercise at a US base near China at the last minute, a go-ahead has been given for a joint amphibious exercise at the US Marines base in Okinawa, Japan. The war game, which will involve senior officers of the Indian Navy and Army is scheduled to start later this week and will continue till October.


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