Indian Army: News & Discussion

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atreya
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby atreya » 06 Aug 2009 22:03

Aditya_V wrote:Atreya-> I think the belittling other careers was overdone but Somnath I think crossed the line when he said navy personal should look for thier own accomodation on thier salary and should not be provided accomodation near the Harbour


Yes, you are right. But, as Katare says above, lets lighten down the pressure on Somnath!!


pmund wrote:Atreya-- I said 'some'. I myself am in the corp sector now, thanks to a medical prob. So, it's obv that I wouldnt belittle everyone in the corp sector, right. I have nothing against the pvt sector. All i am saying is that it takes a WHOLE lot more dedication, integrity, guts and a different kind of character altogether to be in the forces. Trust me, like many others in this forum, i have seen both sides of the coin. Going thru a day in fauj is much much tougher than a day in a corp job


You are correct. I understood your point. I just replied to your post, because, I knew what was coming next. Someone else would reply with more vehemence towards pvt sector. Then another with more vehemence. And 4-5 posts later, members would have concluded that pvt sector is nothing but a bunch of useless, fat people who do nothing and get big salaries!! :rotfl:

Just joking! But I think the point is clear now.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby putnanja » 06 Aug 2009 22:17

Katare wrote:Guys cut some slack to somnath, a lot of folks are ganging up on one persons and some are even using personal attacks (bankers etc). You may endup goading him in saying things that he wouldn't otherwise want to say or meant to say.

Don't collectivly beat him up in to a troll.....


I think lots of posters and mods have cut lot of slack to Somnath. Unfortunately, he is provocative in his posts. When he can't defend his posts, brings in extraneous stuff or goes off on a tangent or berates members, all classic troll actions. He has been doing this for quite some time now.
Last edited by putnanja on 06 Aug 2009 22:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Sanku » 06 Aug 2009 22:18

You have no idea of some of the things he has been posting Katare, much before the current fracas.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby negi » 06 Aug 2009 22:38

^ Sanku maharaj I believe for his generalizations and belittling the services he has already been given an earful by the fellow members .

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby ramana » 07 Aug 2009 00:54

Very interesting target selection

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
Anti-tank Nag missile test fired by army
The hit-to-kill capability of the third generation anti-tank Nag missile was proved once again with the Army, successfully completing the second phase of final user trials in Rajasthan and paving the way for early induction of the system. While extensive transportation trials were carried out on July 31 and August 1, three missiles were fired on August 2 against fixed and moving targets by the Army team. Based on the feedback provided by the Army following previous user trials, the system was made more rugged to suit its requirements.

Defence Research and Development Organisation officials said here on Tuesday that the missile “conclusively established” its K-Kill efficacy (capability to kill) as a stationary derelict tank was heavily damaged in each of the two trials carried out against fixed targets. Potent tandem warheads pierced through the armoury of the tanks and proved their lethality. The third trial was conducted against a moving rail-based target which was developed by the Army. All the trials were of shorter range, varying from 800 metres to 1400 metres, as desired by the user. The production of the all-weather system with fire-and-forget capability was expected to begin soon by Bharat Dynamics Limited.


http://www.hindu.com/2009/08/05/stories ... 362000.htm



Couple this with the Krasnopol-M shells, the Brahmos Blk II IA is serious about PGM capability.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Katare » 07 Aug 2009 05:08

I would say no more on Somnath's view except that members can choose to

- Ignore his posts
- Give befitting reply without bringing personal stuff into discussion
- Report it to mod
- Continue the way its going

I for one like to read his views that are little different than conventional BRFite views. I don't have to agree or disagree with him or anyone else here but I can choose who, when, how and if I would reply.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby John Snow » 07 Aug 2009 05:31

Dont worry Somnath ji is expert in exchanging "FAKE NOTES" :mrgreen:

Dictionary.com

notes: a record or outline of a speech, statement, testimony, etc., or of one's impressions of something.

Notes: A pile of currency (money)

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby adrian » 07 Aug 2009 07:03

I have been a loooong time BR lurker ...almost a decade. In the very early years someone like Somnath would not even last 24 hrs on the forum based on what he has been posting . I guess it's acknowledging the supreme patience/tolerance the new mods have. The objective of having a forum is that everyone is entitled to their opinion and gets an opportunity to voice it. Nobody needs to agree with one another but there still is a sense of modicum and discipline to the madness.

This individual however takes the cake ..I am yet to see someone "so full of himself", so misinformed, and such an ingrate to say the very least. The services (esp the army) has its share of problems, but compared to all the other services (IAS, IFS, IRS) still remains a cut above the rest. The reason for that is because of the men who sign up to do what they do. (NDA/CDS have over a 1.5 lakh applicants for 300 odd seats not exclusive enough?) I agree there are some who join not because it is a "calling" but because it was the best "option" they had. But it still takes a special breed of men, something which people like Mr. Somnath will never understand. I do not think Mr.Somnath has been to Thar in summer, to the upper reaches in the winter and to the north east during the monsoon, lived in a tent, changed eight schools in 12 yrs, watched loved ones go off to war wondering if they would come back..(well I could go on the list is endless). Had he been privy to some of these "wonderful" experiences, I am sure he would be more circumspect and not appear as if he was talking out of his ass all the time. But then again each to his own, it takes all sorts to make the world go round. Having said that I havent seen Mr. Somnath respond to Tsarkar (ex navy ?) or some of the others looks like the cat got Mr. Somnath's tongue ? But then again maybe he is being more circumspect as the good brigadier pointed out "patience is wearing thin" ...very thin indeed!

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby tripathi » 07 Aug 2009 07:07

ASPuar wrote:Indian troops martyr 8 more Kashmiris

SRINAGAR: Indian troops in their fresh acts of state terrorism, martyred nine more innocent Kashmiri youth at different places in occupied Kashmir.

Seven of those martyred were shot dead in Tangdhar and Trihgam areas of Kupwara while one each at Marmat in Doda and Mandi in Poonch.

Eight persons including APHC leader, Mohammad Abdullah Tari were arrested, today, when Indian police personnel subjected a demonstration to brute force at Press Enclave in Srinagar. The protest was held against continued detention of Hurriyet leaders and activists including Syed Ali Gilani, Shabbir Ahmad Shah and Nayeem Ahmad Khan.


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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 07 Aug 2009 07:12

RayC wrote:Somnath,

Apparently you are becoming the author of 'How NOT to Influence People and Lose Friends'.

:rotfl:

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby tripathi » 07 Aug 2009 07:18

Somnath please read about param vir chakra captain vikram batra u'll know how his grades were in his class when he joined the military.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby adrian » 07 Aug 2009 07:25

Dear Brig Ray,
A recent article in one of the papers mentioned how the Army Vice Chief appointment has kicked up a row. Lt Gen V K Singh (Eastern Army Commander) is being superseded (?) by Lt Gen PC Bharadwaj (Northern Army Commander). If this is factually correct isnt this setting a dangerous precedent ? When Gen BC Joshi died in harness, the army went strictly by the book in terms of seniority and made Gen Shankar Roy Chowdhury the chief. Then why is the present army chief and the army top brass going down this dangerous path ? Or is there more to it than meets the eye. If I recall correctly when Lt Gen PC Bharadwaj took over as Northen Army commander, Lt Gen PC Katoch refused to serve under him as Chief of Staff as he was senior and was subsequently given a post at Army HQ's in Delhi. I am not sure if he is still serving or retired but what happens if Lt Gen VK Singh decides to approach the courts for addressal of grievance. Wouldnt that be a humiliating situation for all concerned more so for the army as an institution ?

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Jagan » 07 Aug 2009 09:16

adrian wrote:Dear Brig Ray,
A recent article in one of the papers mentioned how the Army Vice Chief appointment has kicked up a row. Lt Gen V K Singh (Eastern Army Commander) is being superseded (?) by Lt Gen PC Bharadwaj (Northern Army Commander). If this is factually correct isnt this setting a dangerous precedent ? When Gen BC Joshi died in harness, the army went strictly by the book in terms of seniority and made Gen Shankar Roy Chowdhury the chief. Then why is the present army chief and the army top brass going down this dangerous path ? Or is there more to it than meets the eye. If I recall correctly when Lt Gen PC Bharadwaj took over as Northen Army commander, Lt Gen PC Katoch refused to serve under him as Chief of Staff as he was senior and was subsequently given a post at Army HQ's in Delhi. I am not sure if he is still serving or retired but what happens if Lt Gen VK Singh decides to approach the courts for addressal of grievance. Wouldnt that be a humiliating situation for all concerned more so for the army as an institution ?


In the AF, the VCAS is on same par as the C-in-C. There is no question of a VCAS being senior to the C-in-C. A C-in-C posted to VCAS is a lateral move and not an vertical one.

I would assume the same applies to the army. much brouhaha over nothing?

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Drevin » 07 Aug 2009 09:48

Jagan wrote:in my team, i wont expect anyone to put more than their 8 hours (efficiently) and if they do put more, then they will get time off. overall i dont expect them to put any overtime. if they are - either they are inefficient or I am a lousy planner who didnt cater to the additioanl work load. or the companies that have such a work ethic are not worth working for.



U do realize you may be an exception. :) Not all give utmost priority to their team members. Many managers say 'yes' when they should be saying 'no' wrt deadlines and yada yada .... :| ok sry for the ot ...zip...

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby RayC » 07 Aug 2009 11:12

adrian wrote:Dear Brig Ray,
A recent article in one of the papers mentioned how the Army Vice Chief appointment has kicked up a row. Lt Gen V K Singh (Eastern Army Commander) is being superseded (?) by Lt Gen PC Bharadwaj (Northern Army Commander). If this is factually correct isnt this setting a dangerous precedent ? When Gen BC Joshi died in harness, the army went strictly by the book in terms of seniority and made Gen Shankar Roy Chowdhury the chief. Then why is the present army chief and the army top brass going down this dangerous path ? Or is there more to it than meets the eye. If I recall correctly when Lt Gen PC Bharadwaj took over as Northen Army commander, Lt Gen PC Katoch refused to serve under him as Chief of Staff as he was senior and was subsequently given a post at Army HQ's in Delhi. I am not sure if he is still serving or retired but what happens if Lt Gen VK Singh decides to approach the courts for addressal of grievance. Wouldnt that be a humiliating situation for all concerned more so for the army as an institution ?




VCOAS should be the second seniormost officer of the IA.

The VCOAS and the Army Commanders are of equal status and as such there is no supersession as such.

Yet, it does bruise the ego.

However, as the VCOAS, one learns the ropes to be the Chief and VK is tipped to be the next!

I am not too sure, but someone said that VK is from a political family, though I know not which party his family belongs to. So, could it be politics at work to create greater dissensions in the Army? The chaos of 6th Pay Commission, no War memorial, no One rank One pay and now this!! All these issues harbinger dangerous trends, more so since neither the officers, nor the PBOR are of the old genre!

Even Gen Roychowdhury’s elevation to the post of COAS was in shrouded with great controversy since the then Northern Army Commander was being tipped as the next COAS, even though Gen Shankar R was senior!

That is the unfortunate part. The IA personnel are approaching courts. Does it mean that the system is flawed? Who knows? VK may.

The Army as an institution is being wrecked externally and also internally.

I will quote a case. Lt Gen JR Mukherjee was senior to the Army Commander Lt Gen Jat Verma, when JAt Verma was appointed. However, Mukherjee gracefully accepted the fact.

It is all about perceptions and ego!

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby sugriva » 07 Aug 2009 12:12

So, could it be politics at work to create greater dissensions in the Army?

Blame all your ills on others eh.... Now where have I heard this before :?:

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 07 Aug 2009 13:19

sugriva wrote:
So, could it be politics at work to create greater dissensions in the Army?

Blame all your ills on others eh.... Now where have I heard this before :?:


I dunno. Where?

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 07 Aug 2009 13:22

Katare wrote:Guys cut some slack to somnath, a lot of folks are ganging up on one persons and some are even using personal attacks (bankers etc). You may endup goading him in saying things that he wouldn't otherwise want to say or meant to say.

Don't collectivly beat him up in to a troll.....


I dont think he needs anyone to help him say ridiculous things. He's doing pretty well himself!
Meanwhile, writing ridiculous things, and derailing threads with the use of flame baits is a well recognised troll tactic, which he seems to indulge in with impunity. Saying we are turning him into a troll by rebutting his trolling, is logically equivalent to saying "we are creating terrorists, by killing terrorists"....

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby RayC » 07 Aug 2009 14:12

sugriva wrote:
So, could it be politics at work to create greater dissensions in the Army?

Blame all your ills on others eh.... Now where have I heard this before :?:


OK, for discussion's sake, I am blaming other for our ills.

What is your take since you know all?


I am real curious since this action is unusual or is it usual? Haven't heard of it in the recent past.

You heard it when Mulayam Singh did a Merlin by promoting a person to Lt Gen who had an inquiry on irregularities on.

Now, does it ring a bell?

Under normal circumstances, he would not have been made a Lt Gen, but then................ ;)

And what is this - One rank one pay for PBOR but not for officers?

Is that not Divide and Rule.

No you are right - it is Social Justice and Liberté, égalité, fraternité?

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby RayC » 07 Aug 2009 14:22

OK chaps, no more on Somnath.

He has had his place in the sun!

He is now under the scanner!

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 08 Aug 2009 02:59


putnanja
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby putnanja » 09 Aug 2009 12:33

This Kargil hero crossed all endurance limits with his sorties

Drass (PTI): Dodging enemy rockets and missiles, this pilot flew his Chetah helicopter for a record period to carry out multi-role sorties as a spy, a workhorse and a saviour for injured soldiers during the Kargil War.

Col Shantanu Kashyap went through the smoky skyline and over rocky battle fronts and inhospitable terrains rattled by mortars, rockets and stringers missiles on May 28, 1999 in Tololing sub-sector for 8 hours and 10 minutes.

"Flying in Kargil heights had all sorts of records and bitter memories. I flew for 8 hours and 10 minutes in a day which is a record in India's aviation history," Col Kashyap told PTI.


...
"We had to carry a particular load of two injured soldiers. But taking risk, we used to carry three injured persons. It was most emotional and heartening situation for us," he said, adding most of whom they picked from the battleground were saved.

...
Col Kashyap, currently a commanding officer of 663 Army Aviation Squadron at Srinagar, said, "Men and machines of Army Aviation Corps worked beyond their endurance limits and performed extraordinarily."

The Leh-based 666 AA Squadron, one of the most decorated aviation wings of the army, and the Srinagar-based 663 Squadron flew hundreds of sorties besides securing heights in Kargil, Batalik, Mushkoh and Drass sub-sectors during the war.


...

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Katare » 10 Aug 2009 06:59

RayC,

Is the seniority only criterion for promotions in higher up positions in armed forces? The top police official in state is chosen out of three senior most officials as mandated by SC verdict. Does army has similar mechanism and if yes how often GoI exercises its option to choose the second or third most senior general?

Is it true that outgoing CoAS has powers to recommend the next chief? Does GoI almost always accept that recommendation?

Thx

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby RayC » 10 Aug 2009 09:31

Katare wrote:RayC,

Is the seniority only criterion for promotions in higher up positions in armed forces? The top police official in state is chosen out of three senior most officials as mandated by SC verdict. Does army has similar mechanism and if yes how often GoI exercises its option to choose the second or third most senior general?

Is it true that outgoing CoAS has powers to recommend the next chief? Does GoI almost always accept that recommendation?

Thx


Seniority is not a criteria.

The COAS recommends.

The famous case is that of Lt Gen Sinha, who was not recommended by Gen KVK Rao to be the Chief.

The GOI is the last word.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 10 Aug 2009 12:29

I've heard that General KV Krishna Rao did not recommend LtGen Sinha, because the political establishment had made clear that they would not accept him.

Meanwhile, Im not sure how far the seniority principle applies across govt services. I think the previous foreign secretary was picked over the heads of up to 7 or 8 senior colleagues.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby RayC » 10 Aug 2009 13:22

KVK Rao became Governor thereafter!

There is no doubt that the GOI is the last word.

But it likes to appear 'clean', for obvious reasons!

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 10 Aug 2009 18:12


pgbhat
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby pgbhat » 10 Aug 2009 21:55

^^^
Rakesh Dutta, chairperson, defence studies department, Panjab University, added, "Nowadays the recruits are more educated as compared to the past. Quite a few are even postgraduates.’’

good news :D now if only they hiked the pay.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 10 Aug 2009 23:20

RayC wrote:KVK Rao became Governor thereafter!

There is no doubt that the GOI is the last word.

But it likes to appear 'clean', for obvious reasons!


Very true. And good observation.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Surya » 10 Aug 2009 23:26

Actually "Fate" had the last word on that episode

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby kaangeya » 11 Aug 2009 02:13

Is Somnath by any chance the guy the runs that p**** poor blog Pragmatic Euphony? Seems to share the same utter lack of knowledge and is given to making totally clueless statements. I had once challenged the guy to bring his posts here to BRF, and he went crying Mommma :(( to Nitin Pai the coordinator of the nationalinterest.in webring.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Katare » 11 Aug 2009 05:37

Thanks Ray,

Kaangeya,

Don't restart personal stuff again please....

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Hari Seldon » 11 Aug 2009 06:27

The army wants a memorial inscribed with names of nearly 50,000 soldiers killed in 4 major wars since Independence.


link

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 11 Aug 2009 12:12

Katare wrote:Thanks Ray,

Kaangeya,

Don't restart personal stuff again please....


No one is in the least interested what propreitors of certain blogs may have to say. We dont have to read those blogs, and we should encourage others not to as well.

If the moderators had cracked down hard earlier on this forum, we would have been spared a lot of derailment. Lets be frank. There are plenty of fora where military bashing is de rigeur. We dont need another. There are few enough Indian forums for military discussion anyway.

Let those of us interested in serious strategic issues, and issues affecting the military retain a level of decorum in this forum, and be allowed to discuss the issues of interest without irrelevant and malafide interruptions upon whether navy persons should commute on local trains or armymen should rent houses in cantonment cities.

Disruption is the first aim of the troll, and it is for this reason that moderators are present.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 11 Aug 2009 13:23

Lets be honest. Real, and present danger lurks in our neighborhood. The chinese, and the Pakistanis are not idle. And their militaries are not weighed down by the burden of ever present procurement issues, pay commission morale downers, internecine fights between civil service and military/intelligence agencies/police/and god knows who else. And they dont have 'tattoos' sniping at them from the news media all the time.

As we speak, the ChiComs have built a massive infrastructure of roads in Tibet, and opposing Arunachal. They have trained, and readied themselves for war with us. Bumbling as we are, they recognise competition when they see it, and are ready to deal with it before it comes to life.
Their fleet now patrols our ocean. And they are funding Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, and the Maoists in an all out effort to ruin us where we stand.

Our response is to procure more paramilitary forces, and then not use them, because they are ill trained for CI combat. And finally to weaken our military further by involving it in incessant CI ops.

There is danger in our neighborhood. Will we be ready to confront it, when the menace finally reveals itself? I dont think so.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Aug 2009 13:42

Hari Seldon The army wants a memorial inscribed with names of nearly 50,000 soldiers killed in 4 major wars since Independence.




Where did DDM get the number of 50,000 from in 4 major wars. I don't think if you add the Causualties of the 1947-48,1962,1965,1971 and 1999 would come anywhere near tis. Can some expert help us with actual no of causualties. seems to me the no. 50,000 is used as nuanced psy-ops.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Jagan » 11 Aug 2009 15:49

Aditya_V wrote:
Hari Seldon The army wants a memorial inscribed with names of nearly 50,000 soldiers killed in 4 major wars since Independence.




Where did DDM get the number of 50,000 from in 4 major wars. I don't think if you add the Causualties of the 1947-48,1962,1965,1971 and 1999 would come anywhere near tis. Can some expert help us with actual no of causualties. seems to me the no. 50,000 is used as nuanced psy-ops.



Well put Aditya - that 50k figure caught my eye as well and am skeptical about it.

From the book amarjawan which covers the first 50 years, the total operational KIA was around 18000-19000. Perhaps they include non-operational deaths as well, even an accidental death in a peacetime cantonment etc.. then maybe 50k might be realistic.

Moreover the Army is in a habit of counting peace time non combat casualities on the border as part of its roll of honour while the AF doesnt. for ex an Army Helicopter pilot killed in a heli accident at siachen or a border area will be on the roll of honour, while an AF pilot who may have died in similar circumstances wouldn't feature on any honour roll.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby nelson » 11 Aug 2009 17:22

Moreover the Army is in a habit of counting peace time non combat casualities on the border as part of its roll of honour while the AF doesnt. for ex an Army Helicopter pilot killed in a heli accident at siachen or a border area will be on the roll of honour, while an AF pilot who may have died in similar circumstances wouldn't feature on any honour roll.



the reference would be if a certain incident/ casualty took place in a notified operation, be it army or AF. if it is then it is classified as Battle Casualty under that operation say, Meghdoot or Rakshak 2 or Hifazat and so on.

if it is far removed from concessional area then the casualty s classified as training or peacetime accident. however in such cases too for the benefit of personnel involved they are deemed to be battle casualties in most cases for financial purposes.

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby RayC » 12 Aug 2009 13:11

Moreover the Army is in a habit of counting peace time non combat casualities on the border as part of its roll of honour


Rather daft an assertion.

Will change my opinion if proved with links!

I have been in these areas and damned I will be to equate battle causalities with others.

I have had battle casualties and those killed in avalanches.

Different kettle of fish!

Unless you can prove it, quit acting knowledgeable and if you can prove it, I will be the first one to accept it, having been educated!!

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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby RayC » 12 Aug 2009 13:51

In case you guys are interested in the realtime information jsut try the magazine 'Salute to the Indian Soldier'

Contact the editor:

atul.salute@gmail.com

or log on:

www.salute.co.in

There are great articles there.

The contributors are veteran soldiers, sailors and airmen from Chiefs to the ranks and even the lighter side with wives.

Check out the joys and tribulations and the serious issues of strategy.

Maroof Raza is the boss of the show it appears and he is good!


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