Indian Army: News & Discussion

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gerard » 10 Oct 2009 22:31


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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 10 Oct 2009 22:58



PBG is different from the Rashtrapati Bhavan Ceremonial Battalion!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Avinash R » 18 Oct 2009 10:54

Army to increase military presence in Sikkim - Video Link
http://www.timesnow.tv/Army-to-increase ... 329893.cms

The Indian army on Saturday (October 17) decided to strengthen military presence in the northern sector, which constitutes Ladakh and the east, Arunachal and Sikkim. The army has plans to move in a regiment of T-72 tanks along with mechanised infantry to the 'finger-point area'. The build-up is part of the army's plan to build up corps-level counter-offensive capability in both Ladakh and the north-east including Arunachal & Sikkim. While tanks, mechanised infantry, helicopters and brahmos missiles are likely to be placed in Ladakh, T-72 tanks and mechanised infantry will be moved to Sikkim and 2 additional infantry divisions will be raised for Arunachal.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 18 Oct 2009 11:03

move in a regiment of T-72 tanks along with mechanised infantry to the 'finger-point area'.


Rahul M,

Exactly.

It was a harebrained idea of light tanks!

It is not for counter offensive. I will leave it there!

Let's look at it this way, it is merely to tell the Chinese - that far and no more!

Smell the Coffee!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 18 Oct 2009 13:02

According to Prasun Sengupta, following is the breakdown of 40 Artillery Division under 1st Corps:

Code: Select all

40 Artilery Division (Raised 1st May 1997):

* 2 x Artillery Brigades which includes total:
--1 x Artillery Rgt 155 mm tracked SPH
--2 x Artillery Rgt 155 mm wheeled SPH
--3 x Artillery Rgt 155 mm towed SPH

* 1 x Artillery Rgt 122 mm BM-21 Grad

* 1 x 'Composite' Brigade 
-- 1 x Missile Group Prithvi SS-150
-- 1 x Regiment Pinaka MBRL (18 launchers)
-- 1 x Regiment Smerch-M (12 Launchers)
-- 1 x RSTA Group (6 Searcher II/Heron II UAVs, two TPQ-37 Firefinder counterbattery radars and four medium-range, BEL-built Stentor battlefield surveillance radars)


If at all true, i guess this was ony a plan since the tube artillery acquisition never happened!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Vasu » 19 Oct 2009 00:20

This news is 2 days old. It was also in The Hindu.

Third battalion of Naga regiment to be raised

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nayar » 19 Oct 2009 02:11

Avinash R wrote:Army to increase military presence in Sikkim - Video Link
http://www.timesnow.tv/Army-to-increase ... 329893.cms

The Indian army on Saturday (October 17) decided to strengthen military presence in the northern sector, which constitutes Ladakh and the east, Arunachal and Sikkim. The army has plans to move in a regiment of T-72 tanks along with mechanised infantry to the 'finger-point area'. The build-up is part of the army's plan to build up corps-level counter-offensive capability in both Ladakh and the north-east including Arunachal & Sikkim. While tanks, mechanised infantry, helicopters and brahmos missiles are likely to be placed in Ladakh, T-72 tanks and mechanised infantry will be moved to Sikkim and 2 additional infantry divisions will be raised for Arunachal.


Isn't the finger point area a bit too tight for the tanks to maneuver. If the PLAAF comes along it can pick off our tanks one by one in that area.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 19 Oct 2009 02:34


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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Anantz » 21 Oct 2009 14:26

rohitvats wrote:@YI Patel:

Also, I honestly do not feel that 4 Corps will be burdened with such a vast AOR. And commanding 4 Divisions in mountainous terrain is no small task itself. It makes sense to fill out the 3rd by giving it the necessary number of Divisions (57th+2 new raisings)

1. Which are/will be the 4 Divisions under 3 Corps? 57th+new division+new divisions(my guess)+?
3. If any of the Divisions under 4 Corps is likely to get into RAMID shape, it is likely to be the 21st Mountain Division based out of Rangiya, couple of hours drive from Guwahati in lower Assam. 5th is pretty much tied up in Tenga and is a true holding division.


As per this http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/2009/10/new-army-division-to-be-raised-in.html article, it mentions that 2nd Mountain Division has now been placed under 3 Corps. Alternatively, a new Division is being raised at Jakhama near Kohima, an overnight journey away from Arunachal Pradesh. Which means that 3 Corps will now have, 57th + 2nd + New, and maybe 23rd as well.

It would be great if gurus can throw some light on what they make of the move of placing 2nd Div under 3rd Corps.

he 3 Corps, besides looking after Nagaland, Manipur, Tripura, Mizoram and North Cachar Hills of Assam, also takes care of east Arunachal Pradesh after the Upper Assam-based 2 Mountain Division was put under its command in May this year.

The 3 Corps already has two Army divisions — 57 Mountain Division based at Limakhong in Manipur, and 2 Mountain Division at Upper Assam - while a large number of Assam Rifles battalions are under its operational command.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby jai » 21 Oct 2009 15:25

Dear all, are there any updates on improvements to our air defence capability ? Given the situation with China, should we not be gunning for a complete transformation of our AD capability ?
IMHO, AD should be seperated from Arty. and modernized rapidly. Maybe joint production and large scale induction of S400 and S 500's in India should be the next priority for DRDO given the snail pace developmental speed of internal projects.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 21 Oct 2009 23:29

@Anantz:

There are multiple reports in the media about raising of new formations in NE and their location. However, they have onething in common and that is raising of 2 new Mountain Divisions in NE.

Report I: 57th moves out of Leimakhong to lower Assam and to be replaced by new formation;III and IV Corps each get one new Divisions;2nd Mountain Div stays with IV Corps
Report II: 2nd/57th/New Division under III Corps.

IMO, if the 57th moves to lower Assam and 2nd is under III Corps, the situation may look like this:

IV Corps: 21st/57th/5th Mountain Division. The Corps will have one holding Division(5th) and two (21st/57th) available for offensive actions. The Corps AOR will then be Western AP and can take care of Bhutan question as well.
III Corps: 2nd/New Div/New Div. The Corps becomes responsible for the central and eastern AP alongwith Indo-Burma and Indo-Bangladesh border

But the situation will clear only ones the IA comes out with official statement.

@Jai: Corps of Air Defence Artillery is a seperate arm in IA. IIRC, the split happened in mid 90s.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sunny y » 23 Oct 2009 11:40

Why India is not a great nation. Must Read....

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?a=jk ... eat_nation

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 24 Oct 2009 00:06

So Rohitvats, In case of general breakout of hostilities on Indian border with PRC, is there enough to hold the line all over? I dont want a repeat of 1962 when PRC advanced and withdrew. There should be no advances from their side.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 24 Oct 2009 03:51

ramana wrote:So Rohitvats, In case of general breakout of hostilities on Indian border with PRC, is there enough to hold the line all over? I dont want a repeat of 1962 when PRC advanced and withdrew. There should be no advances from their side.


IMO, there were always enough troops available to contain a break out by PLA. If you remember, the 1962 was not as much about the lack of troops as about the lack of military leadership and proper planning. Heck, the rout of a single division, 4th Mountain Division, has been equated with the defeat of IA. The performance of IA in NEFA and Ladakh is a contrast in leadership and planning.

From my little reading of PLA, they will try to concentrate maximum force level and achieve very high localized superiority. While troops in IA may be quite alright, my worry is the firepower concentration. Again, IMO, the PLA will go for very high concentration of manpower and firepower against battle field objectives and launch saturation attack on rear areas and supply nodes/command centers/ALG/airfields. They will try and throw IA off balance, unhinge the defense line, create confusion and shock in leadership and rank & file. They will try and create a vacuum for couple of days during which they will expect IA to not be able to offer a coherent opposition to PLA. It is during this period that they will mop up the various pockets of forward defenses and go only as far before IA can get its act together and bounce back. The big challenge for both PLA and IA is the terrain where the two armies meet. How much concentration and how rapid a movement of troops will they allow? Also,this scenario is based on assumption that PLA will again not be interested in holding territory and will go to war only to put India down.

Of course, the PLA of 1962 was master of guerilla/irregular warfare, had veterans of Korea War, launched human wave attacks and basically did a blitzkrieg on feet. And IA leadership did contribute its more than fair share to their victory. How will the PLA of today fare against well defended and equipped adversary is another matter. Important point to remember is that Chinese Leadership has always aimed to win the war and not battles. The Sino-Vietnam war is a prime example of that. Losses of men and material will not matter as long as victory is to be had. For them, no concept of phyricc victory.

BTW, the situation in NE with respect to new divisions and alignments is as follows:

III Corps: 2nd(Dinjan-prior to Tinsukhia)/57th(Leimakhong-not moving to lower Assam)/56th(Jukhama-new raising)
IV Corps: 5th(Bomdilla)/21st(Rangia)/55th(Shillong-new raising)

So, NE has been pretty much devided into two corridors. Eastern half comprising of Central and Easter AP,Indo-Burma and Indo-Bangladesh border, it seems, will be responsibility of III Corps. Western NE comprising of Eastern AP (Tawang tract) and Central and Eastern Bhutan is responsibility of IV Corps.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 24 Oct 2009 04:08

Well by Chusul the tide was turning but for the unilateral ceasefire and political leadership's collapse of will.
Am sure that the trg since then has stiffened the spine of the leadership and they wont fail. Its crucial to not give them a victory in the war.
I hear that war-gaming is going on in many places in the world as to how it will play out.

Lets see how the MMS- Wen mtg plays out in Bangkok.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Asit P » 24 Oct 2009 06:48

sunny y wrote:Why India is not a great nation. Must Read....
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?a=jk ... eat_nation

Compelling article. Thanks for sharing.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 24 Oct 2009 07:54

sunny y wrote:Why India is not a great nation. Must Read....

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?a=jk ... eat_nation

The best article I have ever read, thank you so much for posting this. Such an eyeopener.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 24 Oct 2009 16:14

ramana/rohitvats - we're straying into having a thread on chinese war aims and objectives in the current strategic scenario... would be interesting

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby SanjibGhosh » 24 Oct 2009 21:33


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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 24 Oct 2009 21:51

imo the PRC wont repeat the 'mistake' of 1962 is handing back tawang after overruning it. they will hold on to it permanently if they take it and cripple the dalai splittist clique's moral standing and the tibetan relations with GOI forever. kills many birds with one stone.

never been to AP, but whisperers on the net claim tawang is not technically a very defensible area
and the main yindu defences are on the Se La pass between tawang and bomdi-la town.

however being a target of vital political significance, tawang will have to be held under all circumstances if we are inflict a H&D loss on the adversary and save our own 'face'

similarly, a rapid PLA victory in pangong tso lake area by rolling up both sides using air-land-naval means would again be massive H&D loss (they already hold 70% of the lake) and be a strategic loss of painful consequences.

as always we are woefully short of modern artillery....the impact of a single regiment of Pzh2000 type guns can be seen in the insane demo thats on youtube.

PS. tawang is only 10km from border as crow flies.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 25 Oct 2009 00:19

The IA better get its act together on its arty

We need thousands and this is why the lack of building an indigineous MI complex will haunt us.

depressing

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Umrao Das » 25 Oct 2009 00:35

Surya wrote:The IA better get its act together on its arty

We need thousands and this is why the lack of building an indigineous MI complex will haunt us.

depressing



I had posted earlier on this pathetic state.

Our OFP are sleeping beauties.

Take two dozen Engineering students 4 Army officers 2 Ncos, may be about $ professors (metllaurgy, Mech, Elec&Elect, Prodution)

Rent on turnkey basis the existing OFP facilities in * months you will have Bofors like Gun for field trials).

SA Romania, SLovakia, Czech, Turkey, (erst while) Yugo, Bulgaria all have their own Arty guns shame that India needs Danel and L&T to collobrate...

****
HONG KONG, Jan. 8 (UPI) -- China has had a number of dealings with South African weapons manufacturers over the past decade, most of which have not resulted in actual weapons purchases. However, several recent Chinese-made military technologies bear suspicious resemblances to their South African counterparts.

In 2008 China acquired a fourth-generation air-to-air missile equipped with a thrust-vector control engine. The PL-10, or PL-ASR, is comparable to the U.S.-made AIM-9X air-to-air missile, or AAM.

According to a representative from the South African Denel Group, the PL-ASR is almost a replica of its A-Darter AAM. The Denel representative told the author during an interview in Cape Town that the Chinese had contacted the company in 2001 to explore the possibility of importing fifth-generation A-Darter infrared-guided AAMs, which included a TVC propulsion system and pilot helmet-mounted displays.

In the end, Denel did not sell the technologies to China, which it regards as its key competitor in selling air-to-air missiles on the African market. Company engineers were therefore surprised to find that the Chinese PL-ASR is nearly identical to the A-Darter in exterior structure, tail engine and even the diameter of the missile body.

The company strongly suspects that China reverse-engineered its A-Darter AAM after acquiring its technological materials.

This fits a pattern that China has followed in acquiring military technologies from many sources. When seeking a new technology, China contacts a foreign manufacturer and requests substantial technical information about its product, supposedly with the intent to buy. Instead, Chinese engineers study the materials and imitate the relevant concepts and designs.

Something similar occurred in the course of China's development of a combat helicopter. In 1996 China and South Africa signed a memorandum to jointly develop a combat helicopter, when China was in the process of building its ZW-10 helicopter.

After being given a focused inspection of the Rooivalk combat helicopter's subsystems, China wanted to purchase one helicopter from Denel, but the South African company considered the purchase of a single aircraft the equivalent of giving away its technologies. As a result, Denel decided not to sell China the helicopter and the cooperation came to an end.

Another item that appears to have been copied from South Africa is the optical-electronic pod on China's ZW-9 combat helicopter, which bears a strong resemblance to the Leo-II serial O/E pods produced by the Zeiss Co.

Technical experts from the Zeiss Co. told the author that about seven to eight years ago Zeiss exported two sets of an earlier variant of the Leo-II O/E pods to China, intended for use on helicopters. According to the source, the Chinese side explained that they needed a large number of this type of O/E pods for civilian helicopters, and therefore would like to purchase two sets initially for testing purposes. The source said the Chinese took no further action after receiving the test pods.

Currently, both the ZW-10 and the night version, the ZW-9, are equipped with O/E detectors very similar to those on the Leo-II.

China's interest is not only in the O/E pod technologies used for helicopters. Chinese manufacturers have also engaged in active discussions with South Africa in hopes of acquiring TV video cameras and second-generation thermal imaging cameras used in Denel's Seeker II unmanned air vehicle surveillance system.

The top military technology that China aspires to acquire from South Africa is without doubt the unmanned air vehicle. China's New Era Group Corp. had several rounds of negotiations with Denel on the possibility of producing in China two types of Denel UAVs, which were on display at the 2006 Zhuhai Air Show, called the Golden Eagle and the Seeker II.

China hopes to obtain the technologies to assemble these two UAVs domestically. However, according to a source from the Denel Group, negotiations on the UAV deals have come to a halt and the company has decided that unless substantial progress is made on these negotiations, the company no longer wants to spend time dealing with the Chinese.

Denel had a similar experience in trying to negotiate a deal with Chinese company Norinco for its Mokopa anti-tank missiles. The Chinese company expressed an interest in importing Denel's technologies, but once again the negotiations ended with no result.

Since 2007 Norinco has attempted to contact the Denel Group again, saying it wants to import the company's G5 155mm howitzer ammunition handling system. But Denel is not eager to enter into an agreement with China on this project; Chinese-made 155mm howitzers already have appeared in quite a number of countries in Northern Africa, including Algeria, Sudan and Egypt.

The source from Denel did disclose that the company has successfully completed a deal with China for its 35mm multirole machine gun. This technology, in fact, was exported to China 10 years ago. China seems to have upgraded this 35mm gun to an air-defense machine gun.

China's New Era Group Corp. also has been negotiating with Denel for the transfer of African Eagle UAV technologies. The Chinese introductory brochure of the cooperation program claims that the African Eagle UAV is capable of taking a payload of 500 kilograms, which could be six Mokopa anti-tank missiles or two Umbani MK 81 precision-guided bombs. The theoretical combat radius of the African Eagle is 750 kilometers.

China also hopes to obtain the South African Angel high-altitude and high-speed UAV attacker system. This attacker UAV is capable of carrying precision-guided weapons and attacking targets 1,400 kilometers away. The UAV is also capable of carrying A-Darter AAMs to launch unmanned aerial attacks.

The Angel attacker and reconnaissance UAV is equipped with aperture radar and is capable of conducting tactical reconnaissance missions. It also can be fitted with Mokopa active laser-guided anti-tank missiles to attack armored combat groups.

Nonetheless, the source from Denel disclosed that no substantial progress has been made on this project, indicating it may end up as one more failed deal. It remains to be seen whether China's latest explorations with the company will yield technological information it can convert to its own purposes, however.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 25 Oct 2009 00:35

^^ What can IA do about this?
When you blacklist every arty manufacturer and whatever initiation IA starts gets slowed down by MOD red tape, there is hardly anything that IA can do.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 25 Oct 2009 01:16

^^ What can IA do about this?
When you blacklist every arty manufacturer and whatever initiation IA starts gets slowed down by MOD red tape, there is hardly anything that IA can do.


Should have planned on an local arty ages ago.

Or could have used Kargil, for an acceleration (no MOD or politico would have dared to slow it down).

A decade lost -

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby negi » 25 Oct 2009 04:39

MOD's red tape excuse is feeble how does one explain IN's acquisitions from DRDO or even outside ?

And what baffles me is what prevents IA to work with DRDO in order to bypass this stalemate ? the latter can come up with a first prototype based on earlier work on BHIM (someone like Rheinmetall ag can fill in for Denel) and then T-72/Arjun chasis is already available .

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Umrao Das » 25 Oct 2009 05:15

Danel is already making predator class UAVs.

Image

our folks go on and on about Rustom, Nishant. Danel started about 3 yrs ago.

uses this engine

Image

Jcage said India was making a UAV about three years of this class.

The whole system is in coma. earlier RM babus used to make money and buy good products,. Now just make money is the mantra.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby negi » 25 Oct 2009 06:00

This reminds me of FSU's intent and urge to develop a viable ADS during the 50's.

A certain firm 'NII-160' was facing difficulties to produce vacuum tubes for S-25 SAM which could withstand 15 g (christened Anod tubes) , so Lavrentiy Beria then head of FSU's secret police service asked Cherepin (head of NII-160)

"How many people from NII-160 are to be executed before the Anod vacuum tubes will be reliable?"

:eek: :mrgreen:

-Sorry for going OT

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 25 Oct 2009 11:56


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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Oct 2009 12:45

Surya wrote:
^^ What can IA do about this?
When you blacklist every arty manufacturer and whatever initiation IA starts gets slowed down by MOD red tape, there is hardly anything that IA can do.


Should have planned on an local arty ages ago.

Or could have used Kargil, for an acceleration (no MOD or politico would have dared to slow it down).

A decade lost -



There is a clearly discernible pattern here.

Only one neighbor benefits enormously by hobbling the IA and keeping it from upgrading its artillery assets.

They have been very ably supported by a pliant and lifafa oriented DDM.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 25 Oct 2009 14:48

^^
A conspiracy theorist, I see. :wink:
Perhaps you are reading too much into this.
This is just the usual incompetence of our defence procurement. This is not the first time and sadly nor would it be the last.
If your theory was true, and the Chinese had the capacity to block our arty procurement, they would have gone much beyond influencing ddm. They would have to hold great influence on MOD and by extension GOI. And if it were so, no amount of arty would help us anyways.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 25 Oct 2009 17:35


Sadly, I do not understand how IA can overcome the shortage ever, leave alone 20 years.
Unless there is some dramatic increase in pay scale (which is not going to happen), I do not see how the shortage will be overcome.
The pay will remain the same and the working condition will remain bad in the foreseeable future. With soaring economy, the prospects in private sector are only to become even more lucrative.
Unless the IA is prepared to drastically lower its standards, I wonder how they will fill the vacancy.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ParGha » 25 Oct 2009 18:36

Gaur wrote:

Sadly, I do not understand how IA can overcome the shortage ever, leave alone 20 years. Unless there is some dramatic increase in pay scale (which is not going to happen), I do not see how the shortage will be overcome. The pay will remain the same and the working condition will remain bad in the foreseeable future. With soaring economy, the prospects in private sector are only to become even more lucrative. Unless the IA is prepared to drastically lower its standards, I wonder how they will fill the vacancy.

Many things can be done, beyond the basics like pay and privileges. Cutting the Short Service Commission commitment back to 5 years (now it has been raised to 10 years, I am told) can increase the number of junior officers... and maybe even tempt some of them to stay on if they like the service, but give them a decent chance of settling back in civilian work-force if they don't. Reverting to the old command structure can reduce the number of officers needed (i.e. a Captain commands a Rifle Coy, a Major is battalion 2-inC, LtC is the battalion CO...); it will cut back on rank inflation, but it must be accompanied by two other things -- each rank should be given greater equivalency wrt other branches of the govt., and a more structured and responsible NCO+JCO command must be setup to help the younger officers take on bigger responsibilities. In India not only is the private sector growing, the number of people getting higher education is also increasing, i.e. bigger eligible pool to pick officers from, but right now the things are still in a flux to determine the best way of tapping that pool. Then one can also re-evaluate what constitutes the "standards".

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby kancha » 25 Oct 2009 19:51

Pargha, many things have been done. The shortage of officers has not cropped up suddenly, it is only that it is getting more publicity thanks to the media.
The many things like the AV Singh proposals and the recent announcement of substantive colonels at 15 years of service are exactly the kind of actions that are needed to control the outflow of officers at the critical ranks - that of captains and majors - where the bulk of deficiency lies. The higher ranks will never have a deficiency thanks to the pyramidical structure of promotions. This has also been done because reinstating the earlier stature of ranks vis a vis civilian ranks is a tall order as shown by the pay commission fiasco.

Regarding the short service commissions, i disagree again. I take it that it takes about 15 years for an officer to become a colonel as per the recent announcement. That would mean that there would be no shortage of officers beyond 15 years of service. If that be the case, why not let short service officers serve for 10 or even more years? That being the case, upward mobility of career officers would be that much more assured while the shortage at junior ranks would be also less. But yes, that would mean giving them a competitive severance package as also the perks and privileges as applicable to other officers on retirement. If the govt can work on smoothening the rough edges regarding the service rules of short service officers and make such a contract more lucrative, I see no reason why people wouldn't sign up.

Another more important fact is that joining the armed forces is only partly an economic decision. I would assume it would also have some emotional aspect to it. This is where the article posted by Sunny Y fits in. We as a nation are yet to give the armed forces the 'izzat' that is due to them by the virtue of the noble profession those men and women have chosen. (In fact some months ago there was another very touching article on the same issue in the HT. Will try and dig it up). However, the armed forces are also partly to blame. The 'Do You Have It In You' campaign did address the emotional aspect but was discontinued for whatever reasons. Now is the time to relaunch the campaign again and also advertise the competitive packages that the armed forces are offering. They now need to appeal to both, the emotiional as well as the economic requirements of the young men. Otherwise even 20 years later we might have the same situation on our hands.

One can only hope they become more proactive in trying to stem the shortage. Here is a great video I found on youtube regarding training at the IMA. Watch it and tell me who would not get inspired by more such videos, especially if they become a part of a concerted publicity campaign by the armed forces?



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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Oct 2009 20:08

Gaur wrote:^^
A conspiracy theorist, I see. :wink:
Perhaps you are reading too much into this.
This is just the usual incompetence of our defence procurement. This is not the first time and sadly nor would it be the last.
If your theory was true, and the Chinese had the capacity to block our arty procurement, they would have gone much beyond influencing ddm. They would have to hold great influence on MOD and by extension GOI. And if it were so, no amount of arty would help us anyways.



Once? Happenstance. Twice? Coincidence. Thrice? Enemy Action.

We really have to seriously get on with our upgrades and modernization without falling into the same rut every time.

Publicly shoot any bloody army bugger who messes up, ditto for the other service's jokers who put their hands into the cookie jar. Talk of blue label whiskey and such other nonsense must be harshly put down. We have become the laughingstock of the world.



Banning weapons companies is counter productive for us.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ParGha » 26 Oct 2009 00:51

kancha: I agree with most of what you are saying, even if I did not communicate it effectively. However, I do disagree with you on one point:
kancha wrote:If that be the case, why not let short service officers serve for 10 or even more years?

There is a difference between "letting" someone serve for 10 or more years versus "requiring" someone to serve at least 10 years. Previously Short Service Commission holders were required to serve a minimum of 5 years, and after that they were allowed to serve another 5 years, apply for permanent commission, or leave the army altogether. Now they are required to serve 10 years, I am told.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby kancha » 26 Oct 2009 09:04

I think you've said it yourself. There must be some reason / thought process behind increasing the terms of contract to 10 years, if the govt has done so after so many years of the 5 years + 5 years deal. Maybe the number of officers leaving might be a bit on the higher side?

Would you know whether the number of short service officers being offered a permanent commission has also increased / decreased, or is that unaffected? 'Coz I feel that the number of short service officers needs to be increased substantially, while at the same time limiting the number of permanent vacancies to only the brightest amongst them. (This is where the severance package comes in) This is the only way one can stem the officer shortage as well as ensure a reasonable upward mobility in the career prospects for the permanent officers.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 26 Oct 2009 17:00

The judgement of IN THE HIGH COURT OF DELHI

SUBJECT: PENSION

WRIT PETITION (CIVIL) No. 5174/1993

Date of decision : 12th August, 2004

is worth noting.

Link

This is equally worth reading:

Link2

An SS Officer of my unit is currently at XLRI so that he is equipped for post leaving the army life (I believe the Army funds a part of the course) and he is leaving after 5 years. All benefits less pension is what he is entitled.

One must understand the service conditions thoroughly before joining. One should not have any regret thereafter. There are many who get disillusioned and then grouse. It is not good for the morale of the others and the unit efficiency.

Some of you will remember the case of the lady officer, who was given married accommodation even though she was not entitled and she raised Cain accusing the CO and the 2IC and refused to go on Temporary Duty!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby kancha » 26 Oct 2009 21:18

RayC sir, not just the XLRI, sometime ago the media was abuzz with army officers also doing courses in the IIMs prior to retirement. So the situation regarding post retirement life cannot be so bad after all.

But what is important is to make sure that the armed forces get adequate number of suitable young men to sign up to fill up the shortage. There is no dearth of applicants for the various upsc examinations for the armed forces, but just that the stringent requirements of ssb mean that most are just not suitable for the job. The armed forces themselves are partly to blame for this mess because there is hardly any publicity to inform people about the career prospects and other benefits in the three services. No wonder that the right kind of youth are not attracted, many out of sheer ignorance :|

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby negi » 26 Oct 2009 21:39

^ These are select few from thousands that sign up for the SSC ,services definitely encourage officers to pursue MBA or even masters in relevant fields in top institutes (IIMs and IITs) but only a select few are offered courses in top institutes subject to merit and vacancies. Point being majority of the folks who sign up for SSC usually end up being absorbed as permanent commissioned officers subject to their performance appraisals and vacancies , only a select few who find better career opportunities outside and do not necessarily get a high with fauji lifestyle opt to leave for greener pastures.

Imho 10 year tenure for SSC entrants is a welcome step as it gives IA ample time and a seasoned officer who can contribute to the organization and at the same time does not affect the individual's aspirations of pursuing a career in the civilian sector.In this day and age of competition 5yrs of experience and a MBA degree might not guarantee a huge paycheck (if this is indeed the reason for not continuing with the IA) unless of course one is amongst the few bright one's who end up with IIMs .

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby kancha » 26 Oct 2009 22:01

I fully agree. After a 5 year contract, it would only make sense to absorb them so that they would be available to their respective battalions subsequently also. But that would not guarantee that the officers would also make it to the next rank.

With the contract increased to 10 years as per ParGha, it would only make sense to let them go after giving them the requisite tools (MBAs) and dare I say, finances to do well on the civvie street too. This ensures that the forces will have the required number of officers to fill up the vacancies in the critical fighting ranks, and also help reduce the percentage of stagnation in the higher ranks.

Added Later : From the website of the training directorate of the army - a list of courses for retiring officers. Go to page 21.


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