yes the twin seater looks really good..but it looks to me that it might be a model of the Naval Tejas, complete with IFR probe..the landing gear looks to be longer and beefed up, but that may well be a modelling error as well.KrishG wrote:Has PV-5 been painted in Airforce colors, like the model behind Subramanyam. Looks coole than single seater though!!
LCA news and discussion
Re: LCA news and discussion
Re: LCA news and discussion
Am Rajkumar mentions the serious lack of manpower at HAL for both IJT and LCA. wonder if they have enough to go around these days.
any input from informed members will be much appreciated.
any input from informed members will be much appreciated.
Re: LCA news and discussion
AW&ST has an article on the engine issue with the GTRE Kaveri. it states that basically as of now, even GTRE has no clue as to what is to be done. More importantly for the future, the report claims that there isn't too much enthusiasm for the MCA, which is worrisome. I quote
"Meanwhile, indecision on the other aspects of the LCA program continues. There has been discussion of a Mk.2 upgrade to include improved propulsion, but no government sanction for it. Nor has the idea of a Medium Combat Aircraft that would rely on the same improved engine gained any ground, according to a defense official who requested anonymity".
Also- the RFPs for the engines for the Mk.2 have been for 125 engines in Phase One, with Phase two expected to bring orders for another 170.
And-
"The EJ200 may gain a competitive advantage in that contest because Eurofighter is a unit of EADS which was awarded a $20 million contract as an LCA consultant by India's ADA, says an analyst.
Another factor working in the EJ200's favour is that, even given similar performance characteristics, the European powerplant is not subject to the same technology transfer restrictions as its US competitor. The Indians want a 60% tech-transfer base for the sale."
"Meanwhile, indecision on the other aspects of the LCA program continues. There has been discussion of a Mk.2 upgrade to include improved propulsion, but no government sanction for it. Nor has the idea of a Medium Combat Aircraft that would rely on the same improved engine gained any ground, according to a defense official who requested anonymity".
Also- the RFPs for the engines for the Mk.2 have been for 125 engines in Phase One, with Phase two expected to bring orders for another 170.
And-
"The EJ200 may gain a competitive advantage in that contest because Eurofighter is a unit of EADS which was awarded a $20 million contract as an LCA consultant by India's ADA, says an analyst.
Another factor working in the EJ200's favour is that, even given similar performance characteristics, the European powerplant is not subject to the same technology transfer restrictions as its US competitor. The Indians want a 60% tech-transfer base for the sale."
Re: LCA news and discussion
MCA lives.Nor has the idea of a Medium Combat Aircraft that would rely on the same improved engine gained any ground, according to a defense official who requested anonymity
But not with this "improved engine".
Re: LCA news and discussion
A lot of unnecessary posts would be avoided if members are precise in their statements. For example Mr. prabhug could have avoided the ambigous statement in his first post and atleast clarify by the second one.
Please do show some regard for others by being precise.
Thanks, ramana
PS: It applies to all of us and not just the example given above.
Please do show some regard for others by being precise.
Thanks, ramana
PS: It applies to all of us and not just the example given above.
Re: LCA news and discussion
In the interview I posted in the previous page, P S Subramanyam says that IAF has already agreed to finance Mk-2. I'll repost the video on this page ------There has been discussion of a Mk.2 upgrade to include improved propulsion, but no government sanction for it.
[youtube]mysi_-5N4gE&feature=channel_page[/youtube]
Re: LCA news and discussion
<NIT PICK ALERT> you mean Air Marshal</NIT PICK ALERT>prabhug wrote: . The same thing was shared by the Field marshal Mr. Rajkumar in his book(he remembers him saying to the american general that our flight control system was better to the F-16s).
Prabhu.G
Re: LCA news and discussion
Last heard, nothing much has changed on this front. And it may get worse or stay the same with the introduction of the basic turbo trainer projectRahul M wrote:Am Rajkumar mentions the serious lack of manpower at HAL for both IJT and LCA. wonder if they have enough to go around these days.
.
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Re: LCA news and discussion
Eurojet's EJ200 engine in contention for the LCA Tejas programme
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mi ... 200_2.html
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mi ... 200_2.html
Re: LCA news and discussion
SanjibGhosh wrote:Eurojet's EJ200 engine in contention for the LCA Tejas programme
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mi ... 200_2.html
Isn't that quiet a bit of increase?The first lot of 40 LCAs will enter service starting 2010, powered by the GE F-404 engine. The next batch of MK2 aircraft will have a number of features that is likely to increase the weight of the aircraft by 2 tonnes. The older GE F-404 will not have the required power for the heavier MK2s, air force officials have said.
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Re: LCA news and discussion
I think they refer to MTOW when they say increase of 2 tons. My guess is empty will probly be increase to about 6200-500kg (800kg increase over original spec). So with a 9-9.5 ton engine such as the EJ-200, you can expect a TWR of greater than 1.0 with a load of 50% fuel, 4 MRAAMs + 2 SRAAMs JMT. somewhat equivalent to a similarly loaded solah blk 52, but with much better wingloading.
Pretty decent.
CM
Pretty decent.
CM
Re: LCA news and discussion
Another good thing would be that the current version of EJ200 weighs in at 2200 lbs compared to 2300 lbs of the F404 on Tejas. The F414 weighs at around 2500 lbs although offering 10% more thrust than EJ200. But, the unit cost of the EJ200 according some sources is as much as twice that of F414. Going with EJ200, despite higher costs, would be a better choice on the long term and could help bring Kaveri out of the troubled waters.
Re: LCA news and discussion
SirKartik wrote:AW&ST has an article on the engine issue with the GTRE Kaveri. it states that basically as of now, even GTRE has no clue as to what is to be done. More importantly for the future, the report claims that there isn't too much enthusiasm for the MCA, which is worrisome. I quote
"Meanwhile, indecision on the other aspects of the LCA program continues. There has been discussion of a Mk.2 upgrade to include improved propulsion, but no government sanction for it. Nor has the idea of a Medium Combat Aircraft that would rely on the same improved engine gained any ground, according to a defense official who requested anonymity".
Also- the RFPs for the engines for the Mk.2 have been for 125 engines in Phase One, with Phase two expected to bring orders for another 170.
And-
"The EJ200 may gain a competitive advantage in that contest because Eurofighter is a unit of EADS which was awarded a $20 million contract as an LCA consultant by India's ADA, says an analyst.
Another factor working in the EJ200's favour is that, even given similar performance characteristics, the European powerplant is not subject to the same technology transfer restrictions as its US competitor. The Indians want a 60% tech-transfer base for the sale."
Question is who wrote the AWST article?
Veracity of author unfortunately matters a lot and most journos are noawadys simply repeating things or even making up things without even the most basic of fact checking.
let us see this statement: "according to a defence official who sought anonymity" - why is this defence official seeking anonymity? question is if he is correct, why do we have official literature from 2008 talking about Mk2. and we have eminent people like PS Sub(ADA head) and Mr Rao (ADA systems), LCA TP Crew, and IAF & others all speaking of 5 squadrons of MK2.
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mi ... ej200.htmlFormer air force chief, ACM Fali Homi Major said early this year: ''We need five squadrons of the MK2 LCAs. When integrated with the new engines, the LCA MK2 should fly in 2013.''
In most recent interview of PV Naik, he clearly mentions support for MCA. AM Major has repeatedly spoken of support for LCA Mk2 also.
IMO, this AWST report is usual one of journos who usually approach some retired "analyst" who works as agent, and these "defence officials" make these kind of comments using cloak of anonymity to run down the programs in India.
Let us instance for see this comment by AM Naik to determine the actual IAF view.
http://indiastrategic.in/topstories325.htmOverall, Air Chief Marshal Naik said that IAF was on track to achieve its total transformation by 2020-25, by which time IAF should be spending around USD 100 billion on aircraft, systems, infrastructure, sensors, UAVs, missiles, training and related modernization programmes.
As for the combat fleet, be observed: “The IAF of the future, post-2025, would consist of FGFA (Fith Generation Fighter Aircraft), SU 30 MKIs, MRCAs and Tejas/ MCA (indigenous Medium Combat Aircraft) with multi-role as well as significant swing role capability.”
My point is, if there was no enthusiasm for MCA in IAF or it was forced on IAF (and for LCA), the AM would not even mention it.
I will say there has been huge change in perception of LCA project amongst IAF planners in past 3-4 years, especially last two years.
Before, we would hear of LCA being part of IAF mostly from MOD, R&D people. But in past 2 years especially, we are hearing the refrain of LCA being a part of the IAF fleet from senior people in IAF, and even CAS Major and now Naik, are open about it being part of IAF.
In June 11, 2009 interview of PV Naik (DefenseWorld available by using Google cache since website is crashed) we have:
Even as LCA flight trials continue, it is reported that, beyond the LCA, the IAF and ADA are jointly considering an MCA or next generation fighter aircraft. How does this dove tail with the contemplated plan for joint development of a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), by a Hal-Sukhoi combine?
Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik: induction of new fighter aircraft in the IAF is based on our Long Term Perspective Plan keeping in view the envisaged threat perspective. Towards this, the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is nearing its development and would be inducted soon. An inter Government Agreement has been signed with the Russians for co-development and co-production of an FGFA. ADA is desirous of utilizing the knowledge and expertise gained in the process of manufacturing LCA to develop a next generation Medium Combat Aircraft. ADA has prepared a concept paper for development of a next generation Medium Combat Aircraft. The IAF is willing to provide full cooperation to all indigenous aircraft development programmes.
I would say the LCA test flights have shown required amount of maturity and almost all outstanding issue of IAF with program have been solved.
--MMR: Israeli help for A2G of MMR and AESA for MK2 so no issue of technology lag or delay
--Open architecture required: Solved by OAC and new avionics
--HMDS: DASH integrated
--Heavier weapons: R73 and wing redesign done
--Cautious test flying: EADS consultancy for fast work
Only outstanding issue left is one of engine for MK2. Apart from that LCA flight testing has proven the basic soundness of design and maturity of FBW to large extent so IAF is now eager for the five squadrons of LCA Mk2. Otherwise they would hedge in making statement, about inducting the plane. But as shown previously, senior most people, are talking of induction, openly.
Re: LCA news and discussion
I agree but would like to add that the F414 has already been developed for single-engine use (Gripen, MAKO) and actually flown on single-engine now (Gripen) so they have a demonstrated advantage there as well as the commonality with the F404.KrishG wrote:Another good thing would be that the current version of EJ200 weighs in at 2200 lbs compared to 2300 lbs of the F404 on Tejas. The F414 weighs at around 2500 lbs although offering 10% more thrust than EJ200. But, the unit cost of the EJ200 according some sources is as much as twice that of F414. Going with EJ200, despite higher costs, would be a better choice on the long term and could help bring Kaveri out of the troubled waters.
I don't think Kaveri development is even related to this as they will seek a ToT business partner on their own and targeting specific areas they need cooperaiton on, and do so most likely with SNECMA.
They both look like nice engines...
Re: LCA news and discussion
At this stage of aeronautical development the biggest weakness is in engines. We should go with the euro engine even if it costs more as it is more modern and they are offering a lot more TOT than the americans. Not to mention that it is lighter and being nearly the same weight as the current engine will be easier to incorporate. Also the europeans are the ones we have hired for consultancy to help speed up the testing so they should be rewarded for their willingness to do so without strings attached unlike the americans.
Re: LCA news and discussion
You don't know if the Europeans offer more ToT. In fact the RFP demands 60% transfer from the bidders and if both companies file compliant bids then they have met the ToT demands. If either of them want to offer more than 60% we just have to wait and see...abrahavt wrote:At this stage of aeronautical development the biggest weakness is in engines. We should go with the euro engine even if it costs more as it is more modern and they are offering a lot more TOT than the americans. Not to mention that it is lighter and being nearly the same weight as the current engine will be easier to incorporate. Also the europeans are the ones we have hired for consultancy to help speed up the testing so they should be rewarded for their willingness to do so without strings attached unlike the americans.
The weight is really not much to talk about. The F414 is barely heavier than the existing engine but far more powerful. There's also no other single-engine product on the market that is interested in EJ200 so all the development and operational risks would lie on LCA. And it's not like the EJ200 has logged that many flight hours, in fact it's only 1/10th as many as for the F414. I don't worry about a few kilos extra I worry about bird strikes, flame outs, hot/cold climate operations etc.
The EADS consultancy is for LCA Tejas (MK1) and they were only called in to suggest methods to get to IOC for that model. They have no part in design and there's no need for a special reward, they already got a reward and that is the contract to do consultary work.
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Re: LCA news and discussion
From reports so far, the LCA chaps seem to prefer the EJ-200 because a) it is supposed to require less amount of airframe changes, b) incorporates later/better technology, c) less chance of sanctions (my take).
Btw, there were reports years ago that the current EJ-200 could crank out another 2-5k of thrust - "wartime reheat" or something. That should be plenty for the Tejas.
CM>
Btw, there were reports years ago that the current EJ-200 could crank out another 2-5k of thrust - "wartime reheat" or something. That should be plenty for the Tejas.
CM>
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Re: LCA news and discussion
Here we go: from http://typhoon.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/engines.html
GE F4042J3 - SFC that is the one for the LCA from ADA.gov
(dry) 0.832
(reheat) 1.84
From http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/VTechT1Gavial.pdf
GE F414 - SFC
(dry) 0.8
(reheat) 1.7
From the above for
EJ-200
(dry) 23g/kN.s. translates into 0.785 (according to http://www.jet-engine.net/miltfspec.html)
(reheat) 49g/kN.s transaltes into 1.667 (same as above)
This could perhaps even tell us if we can get a better range performance on the Mk2 tejas. Added later: Looks like it should - the SFC on the EJ-200 is the best. Given that Tejas weight:fuel ratio should be constant, my guess is that the EJ-200 will provide the best range/power balance.
Further it is possible that the EJ-200 offered to india will have higher thrust than the baseline plus TVC, the latter is supposed to reduce SFC even further during cruise phase.
CM.
Thats the baseline model, it is supposed to have great potential. Can any guru explain how these SFC figures compare with those of the the GE-404 and 414?Overall the EJ200 employs a very low By-Pass Ratio (the ratio of air which bypasses the core engine or compressor stages) of 0.4:1 which gives it a near turbo-jet cycle. Such a low BPR has the benefit of producing a cycle where the maximum attainable non-afterburning thrust makes up a greater percentage of total achievable output. At its maximum dry thrust of 60kN (or 13,500lbf) the EJ200's SFC is in the order of 23g/kN.s. With reheat the engine delivers around 90-100kN (or 20,250-22,500lbf) of thrust with an SFC of some 49g/kN.s. Compared to other engines these figures may actually seem relatively high, however such data must be used with caution and evaluated with all other performance data to be of any use. With reheat the engine weighs just 2286lb giving a Thrust to Weight Ratio of around 9:1.
An interesting point to note is that the baseline production engine is also capable of generating a further 15% dry thrust (69kN or 15525lbf) and 5% reheat output (95kN or 21263lbf) in a so called war setting. However utilising this capability will result in a reduced life expectancy.
GE F4042J3 - SFC that is the one for the LCA from ADA.gov
(dry) 0.832
(reheat) 1.84
From http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/VTechT1Gavial.pdf
GE F414 - SFC
(dry) 0.8
(reheat) 1.7
From the above for
EJ-200
(dry) 23g/kN.s. translates into 0.785 (according to http://www.jet-engine.net/miltfspec.html)
(reheat) 49g/kN.s transaltes into 1.667 (same as above)
This could perhaps even tell us if we can get a better range performance on the Mk2 tejas. Added later: Looks like it should - the SFC on the EJ-200 is the best. Given that Tejas weight:fuel ratio should be constant, my guess is that the EJ-200 will provide the best range/power balance.
Further it is possible that the EJ-200 offered to india will have higher thrust than the baseline plus TVC, the latter is supposed to reduce SFC even further during cruise phase.
CM.
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Re: LCA news and discussion
I don't think LCA will be dumped as both UCAV & MCA as also perhaps AJT will evolve from it.
EJ200 is more advanced as apart from dry weight, things like wet weight and air flow requirement, fuel consumption also govern the "real effect on weight" of aircraft.
Both EJ200 and F414 have potential for growth, far more than even what MCA would need. though I think that India should import EJ200 and collaborate to develop variants for MCA, UCAV, AJT etc.
There were some reports that IN has already favoured EJ200.
The most important thing is to develop full scale labs for Engine development
EJ200 is more advanced as apart from dry weight, things like wet weight and air flow requirement, fuel consumption also govern the "real effect on weight" of aircraft.
Both EJ200 and F414 have potential for growth, far more than even what MCA would need. though I think that India should import EJ200 and collaborate to develop variants for MCA, UCAV, AJT etc.
There were some reports that IN has already favoured EJ200.
The most important thing is to develop full scale labs for Engine development
Re: LCA news and discussion
I have been a bitter critic of the manner in which the LCA project was handled for a decade+.In fact,some time ago,I posted a distinguished AM's scathing criticism of the programme (he had a front row seat),particularly referring to the failure to develop an engine for the aircraft.However,in recent times,the IAF has been taken aboard and even my AM friend says that they are "now doing what should be done",to get the aircraft flying in service at the earliest,even in a MK-1 version that might not meet all the poarameters,but will be an aircraft with years of service in upgraded MK-2 and other versions.This will come as a cost-effective solution to replacing the large numbers of MIG-21s which served us very well for decades.
We now have to view the defence of India as "tous azimuths" (all horizons),as the French Gen.Charles Aillert propounded in '67.The IOR has become critical to the defence of India and the enemy might strike from any direction,not just from the north and east as in the past.For this we need both numbers and quality in the IAF and the "light" end of the inventory will be the LCA,which will be available in sufficient numbers (we hope!).The project is too important to abandon and not succeed.Why,even pak has realised the importance of self-sufficiency and are assembling/producing the joint Sino-Pak JF-17,the first locally assembled aircraft will fly by the year end.
Regarding the EJ engine,one might remember my post at Aero-India about the TVC version shown in pics at the Euroe-jet pav.,which if selected for the LCA would give it a quantum leap in dogfighting capability over the competition from our traditional enemies.With TVC Su-30s and even upgraded MIG-29s with TVC,it would make sense to acquire the TVC version for the LCA.I too feel that the EJ is the way to go for the LCA ,notwithstanding whatever aircraft is selected for the MMRCA contest.
We now have to view the defence of India as "tous azimuths" (all horizons),as the French Gen.Charles Aillert propounded in '67.The IOR has become critical to the defence of India and the enemy might strike from any direction,not just from the north and east as in the past.For this we need both numbers and quality in the IAF and the "light" end of the inventory will be the LCA,which will be available in sufficient numbers (we hope!).The project is too important to abandon and not succeed.Why,even pak has realised the importance of self-sufficiency and are assembling/producing the joint Sino-Pak JF-17,the first locally assembled aircraft will fly by the year end.
Regarding the EJ engine,one might remember my post at Aero-India about the TVC version shown in pics at the Euroe-jet pav.,which if selected for the LCA would give it a quantum leap in dogfighting capability over the competition from our traditional enemies.With TVC Su-30s and even upgraded MIG-29s with TVC,it would make sense to acquire the TVC version for the LCA.I too feel that the EJ is the way to go for the LCA ,notwithstanding whatever aircraft is selected for the MMRCA contest.
Re: LCA news and discussion
Philip wrote:I have been a bitter critic of the manner in which the LCA project was handled for a decade+.In fact,some time ago,I posted a distinguished AM's scathing criticism of the programme (he had a front row seat),particularly referring to the failure to develop an engine for the aircraft.However,in recent times,the IAF has been taken aboard and even my AM friend says that they are "now doing what should be done",to get the aircraft flying in service at the earliest,even in a MK-1 version that might not meet all the poarameters,but will be an aircraft with years of service in upgraded MK-2 and other versions.This will come as a cost-effective solution to replacing the large numbers of MIG-21s which served us very well for decades.
.
Yeah.. finally.. it has been advocated for a longtime on BR.. IAF has been 3-4years late..
Better late than never, though..
Re: LCA news and discussion
Shiv -- spotted any LCA over the golfcourse, in the past 2weeks?
No flight test updates for the last 3 weeks !!!
No flight test updates for the last 3 weeks !!!
Re: LCA news and discussion
No updates doesnt mean no flight tests. Who ever has taken over the webmaster job of ada.gov.in, doesnt seem to give too much importance to updating it
Re: LCA news and discussion
Looks like LCA trainer is getting ready for flight
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/photos-lca-trainer.html
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/photos-lca-trainer.html
Re: LCA news and discussion
No - but I was myself kayoed by viral fever for a week or so and will only be back next week.rakall wrote:Shiv -- spotted any LCA over the golfcourse, in the past 2weeks?
No flight test updates for the last 3 weeks !!!
Re: LCA news and discussion
aditp wrote:Looks like LCA trainer is getting ready for flight
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/photos-lca-trainer.html
These are almost a year old ones by Ajai Shukla
Re: LCA news and discussion
http://www.hindu.com/2009/07/27/stories ... 841000.htm
Request proposal for new Tejas Mk2 engine issued
Ravi Sharma
BANGALORE: Almost a year after it was scheduled to go out, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has issued a request for proposal (RFP) which will lead to the selection of a new, more powerful engine for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk2.
The necessity for a new, off-the-shelf engine has occurred since the LCA’s present power plant, the GE F404 IN20, cannot power the Indian Air Force’s specified air staff requirements. The RFP has gone out to the United States’ General Electric (GE) for its F414 engine and the European military aero engine consortium Eurojet who are offering the EJ200 engine. Both engines are currently in service and capable of delivering an installed thrust in excess of 90 kiloNewtons.
Both manufacturers have been given time till October 12 to submit proposals which will be technically evaluated. The RFP indicates a run of 99 engines, with the option to procure a further 49. While the first few engines will be bought out in fly-away condition, the remaining will be assembled or manufactured at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
Officials from the ADA told The Hindu that the primary reason for the delay in issuing the RFP was HAL’s “insistence to ride the bandwagon and secure via the engine deal as much manufacturing technology from the manufacturer as possible.” HAL has never designed or manufactured its own aero engines, but only assembled them under license production agreements. It would like to gain a foothold in manufacturing technologies such as single crystal blade and blade cooling. Though no transfer of design technology will take place, Eurojet has indicated that an Indian entity can join them “as a partner” in designing modifications/ improvements to the EJ200.
The installation of the new engine will necessitate major modifications to the LCA, especially the fuselage. The ADA expects the Tejas Mk2 to fly in 2014.
Re: LCA news and discussion
Aero gurus, is this an opportunity to introduce box intakes for greater air flow? There used to be some negativity over the French recommendation of keeping the air intakes small in size.sivab wrote:http://www.hindu.com/2009/07/27/stories ... 841000.htmRequest proposal for new Tejas Mk2 engine issued
Ravi Sharma
...
The installation of the new engine will necessitate major modifications to the LCA, especially the fuselage. The ADA expects the Tejas Mk2 to fly in 2014.
Re: LCA news and discussion
Looks like the thrust vectoring thing might be developed with Indian inputs, monetary atleast.designing modifications/ improvements to the EJ200.
Re: LCA news and discussion
According to http://www.ada.gov.in/others/CurrentNew ... -lca_.html
LCA-Tejas has completed 1147 Test Flights successfully. (02-July-09).
LCA has completed 1147 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-305,PV1-206,PV2-125,PV3-146,LSP1-52,LSP2-80).
80th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 01st July 09.
any news other than this.... come on move man.... ada should move to new web host, web-site it is dead slow
LCA-Tejas has completed 1147 Test Flights successfully. (02-July-09).
LCA has completed 1147 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-305,PV1-206,PV2-125,PV3-146,LSP1-52,LSP2-80).
80th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 01st July 09.
any news other than this.... come on move man.... ada should move to new web host, web-site it is dead slow
Re: LCA news and discussion
Philip wrote:I have been a bitter critic of the manner in which the LCA project was handled for a decade+.In fact,some time ago,I posted a distinguished AM's scathing criticism of the programme (he had a front row seat),particularly referring to the failure to develop an engine for the aircraft.However,in recent times,the IAF has been taken aboard and even my AM friend says that they are "now doing what should be done",to get the aircraft flying in service at the earliest,even in a MK-1 version that might not meet all the poarameters,but will be an aircraft with years of service in upgraded MK-2 and other versions.This will come as a cost-effective solution to replacing the large numbers of MIG-21s which served us very well for decades.
We now have to view the defence of India as "tous azimuths" (all horizons),as the French Gen.Charles Aillert propounded in '67.The IOR has become critical to the defence of India and the enemy might strike from any direction,not just from the north and east as in the past.For this we need both numbers and quality in the IAF and the "light" end of the inventory will be the LCA,which will be available in sufficient numbers (we hope!).The project is too important to abandon and not succeed.Why,even pak has realised the importance of self-sufficiency and are assembling/producing the joint Sino-Pak JF-17,the first locally assembled aircraft will fly by the year end.
Regarding the EJ engine,one might remember my post at Aero-India about the TVC version shown in pics at the Euroe-jet pav.,which if selected for the LCA would give it a quantum leap in dogfighting capability over the competition from our traditional enemies.With TVC Su-30s and even upgraded MIG-29s with TVC,it would make sense to acquire the TVC version for the LCA.I too feel that the EJ is the way to go for the LCA ,notwithstanding whatever aircraft is selected for the MMRCA contest.
Amen philip sir,
I always had the same opinion.
INfact my opinion is when we had marut flying, we should have kept up with developing successive fighter planes. After marut may be HF-24 Mark III and may be later HF-30, HF-32 etc. By now we would have had a real decent striker and a decent interceptor and would not be stuck right now with all the load of old Mig-21.
Our mistake is we suddenly wake up and decide to design a true multi-role plane with cutting edge stuff. Even LCA we should operationalise it as it is and then proceed for the next MArk-2 with better engine. Even a LCA mk-1 is better than a Mig-21F
Re: LCA news and discussion
just a question- any particular advantages that you know of that a rectangular intake will give as compared to the current semi-circular shaped one ?PratikDas wrote: There used to be some negativity over the French recommendation of keeping the air intakes small in size.
We know that there will be a change to the intake size to increase airflow to the new engine for the Mk.2 and if there are some benefits from moving to a completely new design, then they will..
at least on the Hornet, they went from a semi-circular intake to a rectangular one on the Super Hornet for added airflow to the F-414s..On the Gripen NG, its the same shape, but a little larger than the Gripen C/D.
Re: LCA news and discussion
I found a very interesting and good reference about the upgrade capabilities of Eurojet EJ200. It's old but really informative.
Test of thrust-vectoring version of EJ200.
The 103 kN of afterburning thrust could be really useful for the NLCA.The EuroJet consortium were required to build an engine (often referred to as EJ2x0) which had at least a 20% growth potential. There are already plans to carry out the necessary modifications to reach this higher (Stage-1) output in the 2000 to 2005 timeframe. Such an improvement will require a new Low Pressure Compressor (raising the pressure ratio to around 4.6) and an upgraded fan (increasing flow by around 10%). This would result in the dry thrust increasing to some 72kN (or 16,200lbf ) with a reheated output of around 103kN (or 23,100lbf). Given recent increases in the weight of the Typhoon it may not be unexpected to find this upgrade performed in the near future.
Test of thrust-vectoring version of EJ200.
Since rig trials commenced in 1998 the TVC equipped EJ200-01A has run for 80 hours (February 2000) of which 15 hours were at full reheat (including sustained five minute burns) during 85 runs. These trials have included over 6700 vectoring movements at the most severe throttle setting and 600 throttling cycles under the most demanding vectoring conditions. These trials demonstrated full, 360° deflection angles of 23.5° with a slew rate (the rate at which the nozzle can be directed) of 110°/s and a side force generation of some 20kN (equal to approximately to one third of the total EJ200 baseline output). These vectoring trials have included both programmed ramp movements and active joystick control. The studies have also verified the MTU developed DECU (Digital Engine Control Unit) software and FCS connections.
ITP have suggested that a Eurofighter fitted with the nozzle will benefit in a number of areas including; reduced after body drag (through tighter nozzle shape control), an estimated 7% improvement in installed thrust for the supersonic cruise regime (M1.2 non-reheat at 35000ft) and a 2% improvement in maximum take-off thrust.
Re: LCA news and discussion
Sir, I am no Aero guru and hence my question. My interest stems from this post in livefist:Kartik wrote:just a question- any particular advantages that you know of that a rectangular intake will give as compared to the current semi-circular shaped one ?PratikDas wrote:Aero gurus, is this an opportunity to introduce box intakes for greater air flow? There used to be some negativity over the French recommendation of keeping the air intakes small in size.
...
Bobs @ 9:33pm wrote:that news is 100% correct....i can confirm that as someone who has been associated with the program for sometime.....some of you might be surprised to know that the original LCA design incorporated the use of box intakes....and the frenchies redesigned it to suit their tastes at our expense....no wonder our a/c ,which was designed to reach Mach 2.2 ,just manages to reach M 1.8...anon @ 7:30pm wrote:if the LCA had chosen those square intakes we would have by now stopped buying fighters........but the french snechma made a big fool of ADA............
Now compare the intakes of the older hornet and the new one...and you get the picture.
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Re: LCA news and discussion
Hmm interesting. In any case, whether EJ-200 or F414, they both have squarish intakes now. My guess is that the EADS guys might end up contributing even more to the air superiority aspect of the LCA what with the consultancy for weight reduction, plus TVC and higher thrust engines. Semi-recessed pylons anyone?
CM.
CM.
Re: LCA news and discussion
Shape of the intakes is not a property of the engine. Shape of intakes has more to do with aircraft design and limiting turbulence in the air that goes through the intake.Cain Marko wrote:Hmm interesting. In any case, whether EJ-200 or F414, they both have squarish intakes now. My guess is that the EADS guys might end up contributing even more to the air superiority aspect of the LCA what with the consultancy for weight reduction, plus TVC and higher thrust engines. Semi-recessed pylons anyone?
CM.
I would surely want ADA to go for the thrust vectoring version of EJ200 with 72 kN dry and 103 kN afterburning thrust. In that case we could find ourselves financing the development of this version and we can expect the first deliveries no sooner than 2012.
The present version of EJ200 already cost more than 2 times the F414, so the improved version would cost even higher. But, it would satisfy the Navy who have been siding with F414 for higher thrust.
Just out sheer love for the design, I would want Mk 2 to have Rafale like intakes. I would still bet on Gripen/MiG-27/Jaguar-like intakes.
Re: LCA news and discussion
Could someone pls confirm if it is true?
Source http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?p=2888651
India's protracted Tejas programme may be facing fresh challenges after a recently concluded set of tests. Open media sources have reported critical shortfalls in several performance parameters observed during the week long tests conducted from the naval air station INS Rajali at Arakkonam in Tamil Nadu earlier in august seems wrong should be July.
The tests comprising a series of 24 test fights were designed to test the aircraft's performance in hot and humid conditions with two airframes (PV-2 and PV-3) participating. The key issue involves Tejas' inadequate performance during take off runs and its inability to achieve the expected maximum speed (being limited to mach 1.05 instead of the expected mach 1.6). Both these issues are presumably related to the inadequate amount of thrust which is available from the commercial General Electric F404-F2/J3 power-plant of the prototype machines.
The limited series production (LSP) airframes now under production at HAL would be integrated with the slightly uprated GE 404 IN20.The IN20 is a FADEC (Full Authority Digital Electronic Control) derivative of the F404-GE-402 Enhanced Performance Engine (EPE) which powers the F/A-18C/D versions of the Hornet. It achieves an increased performance (available thrust) through improved thermodynamic cycle and increased temperature. It would be fitted into the LCA starting from the LSP-2 airframe and is expected to remedy some of the issues observed in Arakkonam. However, F404 series engines as a whole are susceptible to some performance issues in the hot and humid tropical conditions prevalent in the subcontinent and whatever performance benefits the new engines accrue, can only be validated through future tests.
Source http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?p=2888651
Re: LCA news and discussion
RKumar wrote:Could someone pls confirm if it is true?
India's protracted Tejas programme may be facing fresh challenges after a recently concluded set of tests. Open media sources have reported critical shortfalls in several performance parameters observed during the week long tests conducted from the naval air station INS Rajali at Arakkonam in Tamil Nadu earlier in august seems wrong should be July.
The tests comprising a series of 24 test fights were designed to test the aircraft's performance in hot and humid conditions with two airframes (PV-2 and PV-3) participating. The key issue involves Tejas' inadequate performance during take off runs and its inability to achieve the expected maximum speed (being limited to mach 1.05 instead of the expected mach 1.6). Both these issues are presumably related to the inadequate amount of thrust which is available from the commercial General Electric F404-F2/J3 power-plant of the prototype machines.
The limited series production (LSP) airframes now under production at HAL would be integrated with the slightly uprated GE 404 IN20.The IN20 is a FADEC (Full Authority Digital Electronic Control) derivative of the F404-GE-402 Enhanced Performance Engine (EPE) which powers the F/A-18C/D versions of the Hornet. It achieves an increased performance (available thrust) through improved thermodynamic cycle and increased temperature. It would be fitted into the LCA starting from the LSP-2 airframe and is expected to remedy some of the issues observed in Arakkonam. However, F404 series engines as a whole are susceptible to some performance issues in the hot and humid tropical conditions prevalent in the subcontinent and whatever performance benefits the new engines accrue, can only be validated through future tests.
Source http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?p=2888651
That is an article from last year "August"... The performance shortfall was attributed to insufficient airflow - and corrective steps initiated.. by having Jaguar like auxillari intakes from the side..
Re: LCA news and discussion
Thank you for the infoThat is an article from last year "August"... The performance shortfall was attributed to insufficient airflow - and corrective steps initiated.. by having Jaguar like auxillari intakes from the side..