Indian Army Discussion

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 17 Jun 2009 00:36

RayC wrote:Wars are not won by numbers.

It is won through tactics.

One does not match with numbers. One organises it Aim, the Terms of Reference, the Ground, Relative Strengths and then deduces the Course Open and come to the Plan!

What magical tactics?
The world war II era tactics wont work now, neither it did in 1961.
and specially not when Indian forces have inadequate facilities and tools.
The chinese have improved and therefore rigorous analysis of their full capabilities around 500 km area from the border is needed , ,.

Overconfidence is always shown wrto chinese,which is no doubt a bigger power ,with cunning behaviour .,and a better political system to function correctly during wars and other national issues.

Ours political system was easily fooled in 1950-60,and it also didn't worked NORMAL in 1960 (when extra ordinary was not required).

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 17 Jun 2009 01:57

The world war II era tactics wont work now, neither it did in 1961

Which tactics are you talking about, afaik we were ambushed in 1961 politically and militarily(thanx to chacha). We were having a couple of understrength divisions against the commies and by the time we realised and started pulling our act together the chinese ceased firing.(Even in WW2 it was attrition warfare in the northeast remember not the mobile war of Europe or island hopping of pacific becoz thats what the terrain allows)

specially not when Indian forces have inadequate facilities and tools

If we are inadequate then we are arent we,even then pull a shorterline and not overstretch defend strong points but again tactics, it is needed and may win the day.

The chinese have improved and therefore rigorous analysis of their full capabilities around 500 km area from the border is needed

So do we and we are still improving , as far as surveillance well we can do that for a few KMS behind enemy lines but not 500 Km , satellites can be fooled about troop deployments( we pulled of a Shakti didn't we

)

Overconfidence is always shown wrto chinese

Nope . Right now we lack confidence to confront the chinese militarily and diplomatically.
And in 1960 it was not the political system that was fooled but some politicians(this may be repeated now if we are not vigilant), remember it is this system that gives you this voice instead of a tank gun aiming at you.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 17 Jun 2009 07:36

Samay wrote:
RayC wrote:Wars are not won by numbers.

It is won through tactics.

One does not match with numbers. One organises it Aim, the Terms of Reference, the Ground, Relative Strengths and then deduces the Course Open and come to the Plan!
What magical tactics?
The world war II era tactics wont work now, neither it did in 1961.
and specially not when Indian forces have inadequate facilities and tools.
The chinese have improved and therefore rigorous analysis of their full capabilities around 500 km area from the border is needed , ,.

Overconfidence is always shown wrto chinese,which is no doubt a bigger power ,with cunning behaviour .,and a better political system to function correctly during wars and other national issues.

Ours political system was easily fooled in 1950-60,and it also didn't worked NORMAL in 1960 (when extra ordinary was not required).

Give us your magical tactics, if you think the IA is incapable.

Maybe we will get educated.

An Appreciation has nothing to do with WW II tactics.

We do not underestimate or overestimate the adversary.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 17 Jun 2009 07:39

Here is one of the 'magical tactics'.

The Sundarjee Docrtine brought the end of an era of a defensive mindset that had impinged upon the Army because of the political leash imposed on it.

The Sunderjee Doctrine envisaged a defensive system that would stop Pakistani aggression (or attacks) by having seven Holding Corps and at the same time, also have a limited offensive capability. In other words, there would be Divisions for static defence and mechanised Division to counter enemy penetration along with some armoured units.

This time lag would allow one to ‘read the battle’ and the enemy’s intentions. The Strike Corps, would then be unleashed at the area of our own choosing. This time lag would also allow the IAF to gain air superiority (the air force requires time to do so, before diverting assets to support ground operations). The Strike Corps would draw, through deep and fast strike, the Pakistani Strike Corps (there were two of them then) and decimate them through attrition.

Operation Parkrama, which was a signal to Pakistan that the nuclear threat did not deter India, still highlighted the shortcomings of this Sunderjee Doctrine. (It maybe added that Lt Gen Oberoi, the DGMO to Gen BC Joshi, has written in an article that the Cold Start Doctrine had been presented to the then Govt, but it was scuttled by the bureaucratic lobby).

Operation Parakrama indicated that it took about a month in mobilisation since it required movement by rail and availability of rakes. This was unacceptably long if India had to seize the initiative. It may also be added that the attacker has the initiative and till the attack has been halted, the defender is in the reactive mode. Pakistan, having its cantonment near the border, has always had the initiative in any war. This was India’s disadvantage.

This long mobilisation allowed Pakistan, as always in each war, to muster the international community, to intervene and deter India from embarking on war. Musharraf made the right noises by condemning terrorism in Kashmir and his will to rein in such element, but true to character, they were hollow and thus renegaded on his promises. Given the wily Musharraf’s pronouncements, India had lost the justification to attack in retaliation to the Parliament attack.

There was another issue that was important – the Pakistani intelligence focussed on the Strike Corps and was able to follow its move. This was possible because of the long mobilisation that brought it to the battle locations. Thus, the strategic surprise was lost. Strategic surprise is essential to gain ground before the enemy can react. This is more essential since in any war with Pakistan, international power broker countries will intervene and stop the war before a logical conclusion. Like it or not, this is a fact of life and doctrines have to also cater for this. Thus, maximum territory has to be captured for bargaining at the negotiation table.

The Cold Start Doctrine is easier for those who are aware of the Russian OMG concept.

The Cold Start envisages eight IBGs (Integrated Battle Group) moving in on their axes of attack and providing a ‘shallow’ bridgehead. Simultaneously, the Holding Corps (now designated as Pivot Corps) would also undertake limited offensive action. Therefore, in the first few days, Pakistanis would be guessing where the real action is intended and so they will have to hold on to their reaction and only try to stem the rot!

The Cold Start having made headway will give the firm base for the Strike Corps, by the time it mobilises, to strike deeper.

Either way, India would have captured enough territory to force Pakistan on the negotiation table and speak from a position of ascendancy!

I may add that given the realpoltik, international power brokers will intervene and India will be forced to stop, before one could dissolve (cinematic term) the Cold Start into the Sunderjee Doctrine.

Ashutosh Malik · Post by **Ashutosh Malik** » 17 Jun 2009 10:10

Brig. Ray, thanks for having provided clarity on this.

Would it be possible to understand the IBG concept in more detail? Is their any book that one can refer to?

Thanks.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 17 Jun 2009 18:24

If we are inadequate then we are arent we,even then pull a shorterline and not overstretch defend strong points but again tactics, it is needed and may win the day.

This was exactly what most of the military minds wanted in 1962. They knew they had insufficient lines of communications and supply , hence wanted to fall back and let the Chinese extend their supply lines. Regrettably based on false bravado and disastrous posturing from Krishna Menon, Nehru advocated the policy of forward posts, which stretched our lines even further. The rest is, as we say, history. One thing I do not understand (or havent read enough) is why the COAS did not put in more resistance to this. I am aware that the Army is under civilian control, but still...

Things are different now. We also have tactical airlift, and can use the IAF better than the Chinese can. To be fair, the Chinese have a massively upgraded their road and rail links, but it wont be as easy as last time.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 17 Jun 2009 19:28

I am not saying that IA is incapable with less/same resources it has proven its capability since ww2,, but rather pointing to a direction that the babu/political system always interferes in war and that's why IA lags behind its true potential and capabilities,.

we've seen this in 1948,1961,1965,1971,1999,2002 and after 26/11.
And dont tell me that our regular enemy (pa)still survives healthy (with terrorist medals on its chest and the enemy number one (the dragon pla) is still on the cliff .

since 1947 we have a net loss of land area ,but we always have full confidence in our defence system and the system that pulls its strings to fumble in war, hence the so called magical tactics cant work with weak political system,and this is not a joke.,
change the political system, win the war

I am yet know the silver bullet that you have in mind!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 17 Jun 2009 20:36

Ashutosh Malik wrote:Brig. Ray, thanks for having provided clarity on this.

Would it be possible to understand the IBG concept in more detail? Is their any book that one can refer to?

Thanks.

I don't think so.

Many of the issues are classified and of which even I do not know!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 17 Jun 2009 20:39

Samay,

While I appreciate and laud your patriotic feelings, since you are not quite conversant with what you know of the IA and its capabilities, I will leave it at that!

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 18 Jun 2009 06:27

Here is a PDF on Cold Start Doctrine by Walter C. Ladwig III

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/fil ... 58-190.pdf

Ashutosh Malik wrote:Brig. Ray, thanks for having provided clarity on this.

Would it be possible to understand the IBG concept in more detail? Is their any book that one can refer to?

Thanks.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 18 Jun 2009 12:44

shynee wrote:Here is a PDF on Cold Start Doctrine by Walter C. Ladwig III

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/fil ... 58-190.pdf

Ashutosh Malik wrote:Brig. Ray, thanks for having provided clarity on this.

Would it be possible to understand the IBG concept in more detail? Is their any book that one can refer to?

Thanks.

I don't think so.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 18 Jun 2009 12:46

Samay wrote:
RayC wrote:
Give us your magical tactics, if you think the IA is incapable.

Maybe we will get educated.

An Appreciation has nothing to do with WW II tactics.

We do not underestimate or overestimate the adversary.
I am not saying that IA is incapable with less/same resources it has proven its capability since ww2,, but rather pointing to a direction that the babu/political system always interferes in war and that's why IA lags behind its true potential and capabilities,.

we've seen this in 1948,1961,1965,1971,1999,2002 and after 26/11.
And dont tell me that our regular enemy (pa)still survives healthy (with terrorist medals on its chest and the enemy number one (the dragon pla) is still on the cliff .

since 1947 we have a net loss of land area ,but we always have full confidence in our defence system and the system that pulls its strings to fumble in war, hence the so called magical tactics cant work with weak political system,and this is not a joke.,
change the political system, win the war

The answer is simple.

The civilians decide policies!

And that is the way it should be.

However fool bureaucrats with no idea of defence are at the helm of affairs!

They want to run the Armed Forces with equally fool politicians as Minsters!

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 18 Jun 2009 14:05

The Ruskies decided to use OMG against their all possible enemies, the list Included Nato shields in europe, china,iran,pakistan .
However the OMG is very effective in nature since the russian civil wars in 20th century as per western view,
they also used it against germans in ww2,

however as RayC sir said that OMG concept makes it clear how and where to thrust AFTER the war had started(with little or more surprise),in the same way the russians resorted to street fights against the germans after initial moves.

However ,with the type of terrain,population density and the clear indication of short period wars in the subcontinent ( historically ) , Omg would not be used or would not be as effective as it should be unless pakistan does the mistake of inviting the irregulars(talibans etc,.] ,that will be effective only then.

But, the problem that I was asking for is not pakistan, it's china !
and I havent yet heard even a bit from anyone on how it will be contained despite having lesser force/infra level,.

Seems that it is true that we are too pakistan centric, and have a neglect/over confidence towards the enemy number 1 .

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 18 Jun 2009 15:45

May be we will not contain the Chinese right there on the LOAC, may be we will let them come through the hilly terrain and will put our lines just as they emerge out of the high hills . Here we have realtively better infra while the Chinese lines will be stretched and thin cause of the very lack if infrastructure you mentioned. And supplying can be made difficult by IAF which will be acting closer to our bases and hence have more time on station. Smash the chinese then, drive them back even if they announce ceasefire(which they will knowing their perilous supply state) and stop not till they are put back from where they started albeit with a bloody nose.

(All this i assume hoping we dont garner hopes of liberating Tibet

)

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 18 Jun 2009 18:05

And what about the covert support they will get from naxals,maoists,NE insurgents ,BDR, etc.... things they had been nourishing through years

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2009 21:01

Samay, Look up Operation Checkerboard, Falcon, and details of Sumdrongchu. Can discuss after that.

That article on Cold Start is by a kid.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 18 Jun 2009 22:47

Which is the article on Cold Start which is by a kid?

naird · Post by **naird** » 18 Jun 2009 23:35

RayC wrote:Which is the article on Cold Start which is by a kid?

Sir,

I believe they are refering this article,

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/fil ... 58-190.pdf

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 18 Jun 2009 23:46

ramana wrote:Samay, Look up Operation Checkerboard, Falcon, and details of Sumdrongchu. Can discuss after that.

That article on Cold Start is by a kid.

Thanks, ramana sir, your post was a medicine of hope

Btw I had already posted a book on that notion in the EBook thread

Which one? Reply there.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jun 2009 00:25

Take a look at the series of interests:

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mert1769/LadwigPublications.htm

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 19 Jun 2009 15:07

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=10919

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Jun 2009 20:57

naird wrote:
RayC wrote:Which is the article on Cold Start which is by a kid?
Sir,

I believe they are refering this article,

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/fil ... 58-190.pdf

I wonder why it should be taken to be as something written by a kid.

It contains some issues that are worth note.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 20 Jun 2009 17:49

Army personnel asked not to post information on Facebook, Orkut news

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 20 Jun 2009 18:19

One page back ..

Avinash R wrote:Army asks personnel not to put service info on Orkut, Facebook

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 20 Jun 2009 18:38

Samay wrote:The Ruskies decided to use OMG against their all possible enemies, the list Included Nato shields in europe, china,iran,pakistan.
However the OMG is very effective in nature since the russian civil wars in 20th century as per western view, they also used it against germans in ww2,

The OMG was not formulated until the 1950s; it didn't fully go into effect until 1970s. The Soviet doctrine in 1940s was based around the Cavalry Manoeuvre Group, a significantly different concept.

however as RayC sir said that OMG concept makes it clear how and where to thrust AFTER the war had started(with little or more surprise),in the same way the russians resorted to street fights against the germans after initial moves.

The principle idea behind OMG is exploiting weaknesses in AD (then the reigning NATO doctrine) as and when they were created along the front. It most particularly did not specify "how and where" to thrust, but left that decision to the group commanders as the battle evolved.

However ,with the type of terrain,population density and the clear indication of short period wars in the subcontinent ( historically ) , Omg would not be used or would not be as effective as it should be unless pakistan does the mistake of inviting the irregulars(talibans etc,.] ,that will be effective only then.

No one is suggesting that India adopt OMGs. The main aspect Cold Start shares with the OMG concept is unpredictability in attack.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 21 Jun 2009 12:22

Special Army units to fight urban terror

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 21 Jun 2009 13:30

RayC wrote:Which is the article on Cold Start which is by a kid?

I wonder why it should be taken to be as something written by a kid.

It contains some issues that are worth note.

As soon as I read 'India's modest superiority over Pakistan', I was nonplussed. Ray Sir, do you think India only has 'modest' superiority over Pakistan.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 21 Jun 2009 17:08

Gaurav_S wrote:Special Army units to fight urban terror

Among the lessons learned from the Mumbai anti-terror operations was the urgent need to equip all infantry battalions located in Metros and important cities with specialised weapons and equipment, the Army report said.

Apparantly, it is an internal assessment carried out by the Army Authorities. In such a case, the raising of the special units can at the best be called a proposal and not a concrete decision as the same would have to be approved by the babus.

In any case, it does not augur well if the army still thinks that it may need to be called out in such a scenario. What is the use of the NSG hubs that are to come up shortly? IMO, army should be the last resort in such scenarios, which was thankfully the case in Mumbai with the NSG taking the lead and the army in support role.

Specialised equipment and weapons to regular battalions in metros would mean additional burden on the troops who are supposed to be training for a conventional role during peacetime. It would also automatically make them the first resort in case of an incident and help fuel the lethargy of the concerned state govts with regard to upgrading the equipment and training profile of their police forces.

Additional NSG hubs in such a case is a good solution when seen in conjunction with the raising of 'Police Commandos', atleast by Maharastra. However, the army needs to stay clear. JMTs

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 21 Jun 2009 17:09

kittoo...I think so only modest to quickly force a decision ... i guess if we had more than modest superiority we could have sorted them out long ago. though i am open to be corrected by more educated members!!! i also believe the babus will ensure that it remains that way.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 21 Jun 2009 18:06

Not quite. The Ghatak platoon of the Grenadiers wasn't even deployed in Mumbai.

What you might see is army units located in Metros generating counter-terrorist units out of existing formations. Not impossible and training and even weaponry is largely available. What you won't see without MoD approval is NSG clones.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 21 Jun 2009 18:21

Sanjay wrote:Not quite. The Ghatak platoon of the Grenadiers wasn't even deployed in Mumbai.

What you might see is army units located in Metros generating counter-terrorist units out of existing formations. Not impossible and training and even weaponry is largely available. What you won't see without MoD approval is NSG clones.

That will effectively make police out of the armed forces units(mainly infantry) in various cities... albeit with superiority in training, equipment and morale.

The question is, is the same desirable?

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 21 Jun 2009 18:22

^^ Sanjay
Nothing wrong with what u say. I might have sounded a trifle too alarmist, but my contention stays the same - It is good and desirable that the army be prepared, but at the same time it is also desirable that the state govts pull up their socks and not sit smug knowing that the army, having declared its readiness to deal with such situations, can bail them out of ensuring that the police is made capable of responding adequately in the first place.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 21 Jun 2009 18:51

manjgu wrote:kittoo...I think so only modest to quickly force a decision ... i guess if we had more than modest superiority we could have sorted them out long ago. though i am open to be corrected by more educated members!!! i also believe the babus will ensure that it remains that way.

Quickly forcing a decision might not be something we have, but I pretty sure we have more than modest superiority in terms of power. Also, we could have attacked PoK after 26/11, if not for those darned nukes I believe (and our weak govt, of course).

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 22 Jun 2009 20:08

kittoo wrote:"RayC"]Which is the article on Cold Start which is by a kid?

I wonder why it should be taken to be as something written by a kid.

It contains some issues that are worth note.

As soon as I read 'India's modest superiority over Pakistan', I was nonplussed. Ray Sir, do you think India only has 'modest' superiority over Pakistan.

We have superiority but then it is not ideal if the three week window is applied.

In the mountains, on either front, we require a capability to launch cogent offensive, without milking the formation in the defensive role.

Likewise, we require to beef up the current offensive apparatus in the plains sector too.

Thus, 'modest'!

Right now we lack confidence to confront the chinese militarily and diplomatically.

I can't comment on the diplomatic aspect, but my discussions with those who are facing the Chinese prove otherwise and they are quite confident, if I may say.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 23 Jun 2009 03:54

Posting here as there is no single tri-service thread...

Armed forces tribunal set up for speedy disposal of cases

More than a year after the Armed Forces Tribunal Act came into force, the government Monday constituted a tribunal for the speedy disposal of over 9,800 cases filed by service personnel in various high courts in the country.

Justice Ashok Kumar Mathur was appointed the chairman of the tribunal which will also have 14 judicial and 15 administrative members.
...

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 23 Jun 2009 12:18

It might be OT but I i guess this solider deserves at least this space and honor

War hero dies in penury, bravery awards count for nothing

Bhopal: Radhe Shyam Tiwari fought three wars for India, winning seven bravery awards, but died in poverty with his family scrounging around and appealing to friends for money to perform the last rites of the 75-year-old war hero.

Tiwari received seven bravery awards including the Mention-in-Dispatch award from the President of India died in Madya Pradesh's Mandsour on Friday.

All the bravery and service to the nation, however, failed to get him any dignity, not even in death.

He could be cremated only after friends, relatives and well wishers donated money.

Post his retirement, Tiwari lived, and died in penury.

By the time he retired, he had fought three wars for India, sustained injuries in the 1971 war against Pakistan and was decorated with seven bravery awards.

"He fought for the country but was given nothing in return, People usurped his land and he was left to fend for himself. No one came to his rescue when he needed help against those who had occupied the land given by the government," a relative BL Tiwari.

Tiwary was given 12 bigha land by the government, but most of it was illegally occupied even before it was allocated to him.

In his last years, cancer killed his wife, before turning to Tiwari himself. But this was one war the veteran couldn't win.

"My father was a fighter. He fought for the country; he never got the land that he was allocated, mother died from cancer. The medals that he got ultimately were of no use," his son Ajay Tiwary said.

The Indian state by conferring a Mention-in-Dispatch Award in 1974 ensured that his name was mentioned in a gazette notification but could do little else.

Neither his medals, nor the government helped him in his battle for survival. Even his last journey was made on borrowed money.

Sad Really feel ashamed ...

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Jun 2009 18:37

Nothing beats the misery of those who are somewhat disabled in action

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/2 ... -singh.htm

We have Col Anil Kaul's accounts of how juniors and seniors mistreated him when he tried to continue serving after a horrible injury.

and the Army is surprised that people are less inclined to join it.

I hope luck turns for this guy

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 23 Jun 2009 19:00

Surya wrote:Nothing beats the misery of those who are somewhat disabled in action
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/2 ... -singh.htm

We have Col Anil Kaul's accounts of how juniors and seniors mistreated him when he tried to continue serving after a horrible injury. and the Army is surprised that people are less inclined to join it.

I hope luck turns for this guy

Nothing in the account says anything about the Army (or anyone in it) is ill treating this guy or is not doing him right. He just wrote that he is being kept away from active assignments - that is only to be expected since he is operating in a reduced capacity.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Jun 2009 19:13

^^^^^

Some amount of bitterness on the part of the Captain is to be expected -- he was do devil and is now incapacitated forced to fire a pen from a desk. OTOH he accepts that he overturned a vegetable cart while driving "rashly" even when he cant see from a eye.

This is not a critisim of the brave man -- merely that life has played a cruel joke on such a person -- and he will take some time to accept it

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Jun 2009 19:51

HariC

Ok mistreatment was my word and I perhaps extrapolated (read in between the lines) the following account and comparing with what Col Kaul went through. I am pretty sure crap is happening to him and he is being given the run around.

From the account

Once he was back at the NSG camp, Captain Singh realised that people have short memories, and if you are injured in the army, you are little more than a liability.
"People's attitudes towards me have changed. Earlier, they had the utmost confidence in my abilities -- I was given plum tasks to take care of. Now even though I can do everything, including driving, firing and physical tasks, all the meaty jobs go to others, and I am given things to do that are not in keeping with my rank. That makes me feel bad."

"People soon forget your sacrifice and treat you like a liability. When I came back, I got a grand welcome; everyone was glad that I was alive. But now priorities have changed. It pinches sometimes -- especially when I have to go to the doctor because of pain, and someone says, 'Arre, you just went two days ago -- now you have to go again?'"

And this guy is still serving so he can only say that much. Imagine how much frustration is driving him to even say this.

One has to read Col Kaul's book to understand - what else must be happening.