MRCA News and Discussion

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Kartik
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MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 19 Jun 2009 08:31

SaiK wrote:Rafale will not come with AESA.. and should that be in the rfp, know your answers... Again, expect another round of ddm headlines, and finally Rafale agreeing to provide AESA at later tranches/delivery at a boosted price.



why ? any particular reason for that or just more random speculation ?

in case you didn't know, the French brought along a Rafale (B301) twin seater equipped with the RBE-2 AESA for the Swiss evaluations. and, Adl'A is set to recieve its Rafale F3+ with the AESA set by 2012, more than well in time for the MRCA delivery schedule, which is set for 36 months after contract is signed.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 19 Jun 2009 09:34

the reason could be french-english.
Page 42: Rafale - http://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416085913&o=ext

nevertheless, this is the same attitude they had earlier saying, they will give us 40 rafales outright purchase, and that is enough for our needs. it just could not be french-english then.. and my guess it is the same mode they are now in.. culture can't change overnight.

now, outright they are claiming that we would not draft contracts by 2012.. and if we do, they are losers.. hence my analysis.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Katare » 19 Jun 2009 09:57

No they offered 40 Rafales because IAF was looking for two squads as stop gap measure before MRCA. Eventually IAF bought 40 additional MKIs from Russia.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 19 Jun 2009 19:15

AmitR wrote:
Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:bring the proof that russkies going to ask another billion or in Mr N Rao's language show URL for this

price of gorshkov is still cheaper and its been already discussed but if you guys want to discuss more then i am ready

for nuke sub as if whenever india wants a nuke sub just order it russia.


Since you seem to have such deep understanding of the Russis can you tell us what exactly the state of the Mig35 and PakFA right now. What is the level of advancement and development that you see in the avionics, electronics, bambootronics and stealthoshky that the Russis have achieved. No need of URL also mr Putin.

first talking of stealth no MRCA going to offer any kind of stealth as PETER CRISS ex aussie air chief said for super hornet "its RCS is marginally superior to older hornets and its not at the same level what was told to us initially" and enemies will have AEWACS as well.

so what kind of stealth americans offering to india for shornet?? and how stealthy are these semi stealthy jets when carrying external loads which increase the RCS many folds and also if these jets are stealthy then some measures to reduce the RCS of mig35 had already been adopted and you already know about that.

and this is MRCA thread don't bring PAK FA here.

and it doesn't matter whether russian air force uses mig35 or not but it doesn't mean it becomes inferior,if this be the case then russian air force did not induct su30mki either.

and americans took 5 years to mature their aesa since they first mounted their apg63(v2)
on their f15,and as for zhuk aesa radar it will have all new processing module,both simultaneous air to air or air to ground detection,lpi and comparable detection range to rbe2 aesa or apg79 but it will be inferior in aesa t/r module tech.LPI can also be added to pulse doppler or PESA radars as well.

and apg63(v2) had apg63(v1)'s back end processing and this was not upto mark
and then in apg63(v3) they had all new back end processing and when russia showed zhuk ae this radar also had back end processing of zhuk me which was not upto mark and thats why all new back end processing going to be employed in zhuk ae.

and there is more technical data available for zhuk aesa prototype radar and its detection ranges for air to air and air to ground than any other western radar.

and for other electronics its none the less inferior either to any other contender whether its irst,soar,solo systems and for EW there is already a inbuilt italian jammer on mig35 and there is a option of elta8222 and four of these elta jammers can be used on mig35 simultaneously.

and those "ale 99 jamming pods" on growler can be fitted to any other aircraft as well

and if someone has doubt about strike capability of russkie aircraft and considering russia also allows foreign weapons integration on their aircrafts then all i can say that when india acquires JDAMs of various masses from 250kg to 1 ton

if configured
then even a mig21 bison will be capable of carrying 2*250kg JDAMs

and mig27 can carry 4 JDAMs of 500kg or (4*250kg JDAMs+2*500kg JDAMs)
(even better when upgraded with al31 engine)

and upgraded mig29 would be able to carry 4*500kg JDAMs OR (4*KAB500+litening pod)
or 4*kh29 stand off missiles

and mig35 is more capable than 21,27,29.

and other option will be israeli JDAM but israel is yet to come up with its israeli version of JDAM

but MRCA aircraft are able to carry these PGM farther than mig27.29 but how far IAF needs to drop PGMs from homeland whether its going to be somewhere in middle east or somewhere in the east for which IAF has enough mkis but this situation is also highly unlikely

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 19 Jun 2009 21:19

NRao wrote:
krishnan wrote:Almost all countries now are going to screw us just like russians are doing. When they can do it, would other countries be far behind in this.


True.

Then get screwed and get the product on time under control. Which is why I would keep away from RU. Furthermore I am not yet convinced they have caught up technologically - or that they really can. My fear is that they will rely on India funding THEIR projects and thus squeeze India



And later selling them to China !!!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby AmitR » 19 Jun 2009 21:39

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:....
but MRCA aircraft are able to carry these PGM farther than mig27.29 but how far IAF needs to drop PGMs from homeland whether its going to be somewhere in middle east or somewhere in the east for which IAF has enough mkis but this situation is also highly unlikely


Thanks Andrew.
Can you tell us about the RCS reduction measures that have been employed on the 35. What are the RCS from different aspects, clean and loaded. Can it carry Bhrahmos.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby b_patel » 19 Jun 2009 23:42

so what kind of stealth americans offering to india for shornet?? and how stealthy are these semi stealthy jets when carrying external loads which increase the RCS many folds and also if these jets are stealthy then some measures to reduce the RCS of mig35 had already been adopted and you already know about that.

It has the second lowest RCS of the MRCA competitors. That being said how much would the Mig-35's RCS increase with external weapons? Its RCS no matter what will be higher than the Super Hornet's. Also the Super Hornet's RCS is not marginally lower than its predecessor, its significantly reduced.

and it doesn't matter whether russian air force uses mig35 or not but it doesn't mean it becomes inferior,if this be the case then russian air force did not induct su30mki either.

But the russians did induct the MKI in a way. The Su-35BM which will go into mass production soon is a derivative of the Su-30MKI project. The Su-35BM is the all Russian version of the MKI, with stronger engines, more powerful radar. The further developed what was on the MKI made it all Russian in origin and they now plan on inducting it. The Mig-35 on the other hand will never see service in the Russian Air force. It is Mig's last attempt to win a significant export order. it was made just for the MRCA. Why would you induct the Mig-35 when you are going to induct the Su-35BM and soon Pak-Fa? Seems like a waste of money and R&D.

and if someone has doubt about strike capability of russkie aircraft and considering russia also allows foreign weapons integration on their aircrafts then all i can say that when india acquires JDAMs of various masses from 250kg to 1 ton

I have major issues with the strike capabilities of the Mig-35. They are below average compared to the rest of the competitors. Where would India acquire JDAM's from the US. That will be the day US munitions on a Russian Aircraft. HA! But the fact the Russia allows foreign weapons integration shows how poorly the Mig-35 is in the A2G role, and more specifically how poor their A2G weapons are. I think India relies on Israel for a majority of their strike weapons, Crystal Maze, Popeye, Delilah, etc. Also the integration isn't cheap! Why should India have to pay extra for additional weapons integration when it can buy a fighter with superior armaments!
and those "ale 99 jamming pods" on growler can be fitted to any other aircraft as well

That's if the US clears them for export.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 20 Jun 2009 01:52

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:and those "ale 99 jamming pods" on growler can be fitted to any other aircraft as well


Well, the Growler is far more than just the ALQ-99.

As far as using other planes:

1. It was an expensive and time-consuming process to create the Growler/Grizzly

It was far more than just 'bolting on a pod', it was a $1.2 billion development effort that required adding another mile of cabling. The concept aircraft flew in 2001 and it didn't reach operational status until 2009. Everyone else's record of integrating AESA does not give much confidence that such a significant project will ever be undertaken by them.

(As a side note, most of that was just integration work as it is reusing most of the electronics from the EA-6. Developing new jammers and sigint gear would add significantly more to the time and cost.)

2. It imposes a significant power penalty.

It requires more electrical capacity and more thrust to drive the RATs. The single-engine contenders definitely don't have the power and I have my doubts about the MiG-35.

3. Two seat operation.

The EF doesn't have an operational 2-seat variant and the Rafale 2-seater is not available in a carrier configuration.

4. Extra space.

The SH is a decent sized aircraft and included a lot of space for future growth. But it still had to eliminate the gun to have enough room for everything. Again the single-engined contenders just aren't big enough and the MiG-35 is questionable.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 20 Jun 2009 02:06

b_patel wrote:
so what kind of stealth americans offering to india for shornet?? and how stealthy are these semi stealthy jets when carrying external loads which increase the RCS many folds and also if these jets are stealthy then some measures to reduce the RCS of mig35 had already been adopted and you already know about that.

It has the second lowest RCS of the MRCA competitors. That being said how much would the Mig-35's RCS increase with external weapons? Its RCS no matter what will be higher than the Super Hornet's. Also the Super Hornet's RCS is not marginally lower than its predecessor, its significantly reduced.

and it doesn't matter whether russian air force uses mig35 or not but it doesn't mean it becomes inferior,if this be the case then russian air force did not induct su30mki either.

But the russians did induct the MKI in a way. The Su-35BM which will go into mass production soon is a derivative of the Su-30MKI project. The Su-35BM is the all Russian version of the MKI, with stronger engines, more powerful radar. The further developed what was on the MKI made it all Russian in origin and they now plan on inducting it. The Mig-35 on the other hand will never see service in the Russian Air force. It is Mig's last attempt to win a significant export order. it was made just for the MRCA. Why would you induct the Mig-35 when you are going to induct the Su-35BM and soon Pak-Fa? Seems like a waste of money and R&D.

and if someone has doubt about strike capability of russkie aircraft and considering russia also allows foreign weapons integration on their aircrafts then all i can say that when india acquires JDAMs of various masses from 250kg to 1 ton

I have major issues with the strike capabilities of the Mig-35. They are below average compared to the rest of the competitors. Where would India acquire JDAM's from the US. That will be the day US munitions on a Russian Aircraft. HA! But the fact the Russia allows foreign weapons integration shows how poorly the Mig-35 is in the A2G role, and more specifically how poor their A2G weapons are. I think India relies on Israel for a majority of their strike weapons, Crystal Maze, Popeye, Delilah, etc. Also the integration isn't cheap! Why should India have to pay extra for additional weapons integration when it can buy a fighter with superior armaments!
and those "ale 99 jamming pods" on growler can be fitted to any other aircraft as well

That's if the US clears them for export.

then PETER CRISS being at fault for his saying and as if he doesn't know what his country buying for the air force he worked for his entire life.

there will always be many vs many and in this scenerio the RCS from sides become more prominent and radar of enemy fighters will not not be looking at frontal section of aircraft but from sides also from sides external stores are more visible to enemy fighter radars

so considering the RCS of aircraft and weapons from sides becomes is significantly more than frontal RCS and this reduces the lower RCS of semi stealthy aircraft to ashes and enemy too being in networked environment and also supported by AEWACS will see f18e from 200km

russian air force not going to induct su35BM either its just marketing tactic and how many mki,su34 they have inducted.

and what is the definition of below average in A2G,how many LGBs you have seen on typhoon/rafale/f18e i tell you i never saw more than 6 500kg LGB with litening pod and same litening pod is used in mki/LCA and same 500kg LGB russia also produces

and you also must have seen gripen ng pics carrying various configurations of air to ground munitions and that 6 ton payload capability and same amount of paylaod mig35 is able to carry with various weapon configuration ,2 brahmos can be carried on mig35 but let the air launched brahmos be tested first.

and for foreign weapons integration how much it cost for that???? no more than few millions.
aur vaise bhi aajkal our "BHARAT" has become "sone ki chiria" again which doesn't care for money any more.

and talking of PGM both EADS/SAAB have various weapons from various countries and that weapon integration money they will take from indian pocket.

more specifically russian A2G weapons being poor is just hype thats all i will say and they were never used on innocent people and same thing you ask any one in west they will say oh yeah our PGMs are battle proven on poor afghans everyday.

now future mig29k and mig29kub india going to acquire will have aesa radars

and mig29kub 2 seater naval fighter will be able to carry aesa radar+internal gun+4 elta jammers+2*kh31+2*WVR+a fuel tank in one go and it becomes mig29kub growler

although current mig29kub can carry same configuration except they have zhuk me
Last edited by Andrew DeCristofaro on 20 Jun 2009 02:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 20 Jun 2009 02:22

Kersi D wrote:
NRao wrote:Almost all countries now are going to screw us just like russians are doing. When they can do it, would other countries be far behind in this.

True.

Then get screwed and get the product on time under control. Which is why I would keep away from RU. Furthermore I am not yet convinced they have caught up technologically - or that they really can. My fear is that they will rely on India funding THEIR projects and thus squeeze India



And later selling them to China !!!

from whose pocket the development money for P8 MPA going "India" and this is the aircraft which japan refused to buy so its all going from indian pocket and later US will sell it to many countries.

UAE had to pay development money fro f16blk60,australia had to pay development money for 737 based AEW.

boeing need foreign customer for the development of more power engine for super hornet.
france also needs foreign customer for further development of rafale.

so its not just russia but all countries needs foreign investment for their product development.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 20 Jun 2009 02:43

and if IAF want to see how do their russian PGMs work then they too better go to afghanistan as well like US/EUROPEANS and launch as many PGMs in day/night/adverse weather conditions as they want and no one going to ask for human rights violations there.

and then say our PGMs are battle proven too.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby b_patel » 20 Jun 2009 02:56

http://www.lenta.ru/news/2009/05/13/sukhoi/
There's a link about Russia producing about 60 Su-35BM by 2015. It says once they are done with testing the prototypes production should begin 2011 which is a reasonable time frame.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080114/96572867.html
Here's the link for the Su-34 production.
Google either one of them and you will get other links that all prove the Russia will induct these two aircrafts.

more specifically Russian A2G weapons being poor is just hype thats all i will say and they were never used on innocent people and same thing you ask any one in west they will say oh yeah our PGMs are battle proven on poor afghans everyday.

Have you heard of Chechnya? Plus the US is constantly dropping bombs and A2G ordinances, so at least they are proven to work, when's the last time Russia did consistent A2G missions?
now a future mig29k and mig29kub india going to acquire will have aesa radars

Well all of the Mig-29K's India plans on accruing will have the Zhuk-ME radar which is NOT an Aesa, the Aesa is on the Mig-35 and its the Zhuk-AE. I remember reading an article saying that Russia was willing to put the Zhuk-AE on the Mig-29's but I don't think India chose that option.
and mig29kub is able to carry aesa radar+gun+4 elta jammers+2*kh31+2*WVR+a fuel tank in one go and it becomes mig29kub growler

That's not a Mig-Growler, its just a Mig-29kub with extra jamming pods. It takes a tell of a lot more than 4 jamming pods to turn an aircraft into something like the Growler. If all it took were just advanced Jamming pods don't you think most countries would have their own dedicated EW aircraft?

and talking of PGM both EADS/SAAB have various weapons from various countries and that weapon integration money they will take from indian pocket

Those aircraft were originally designed to carry weapons from various countries, at least the Gripen was. So if India bought any of those fighters they would already have the integration completed for those foreign weapons. It would be up to those foreign governments (mainly USA) to approve India's purchase of them. It wouldn't cost India extra money to integrate it its already been done, your missing the point. With russia the Mig-35 was never designed to fire, the Python-5, Derby, ASRAAM, Brimstone, etc. Hence it would cost India extra Time and Money to integrate those weapons. That's not what they want at this point. The MRCA need to be inducted as quickly as possible.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 20 Jun 2009 03:03

b_patel wrote:http://www.lenta.ru/news/2009/05/13/sukhoi/
There's a link about Russia producing about 60 Su-35BM by 2015. It says once they are done with testing the prototypes production should begin 2011 which is a reasonable time frame.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080114/96572867.html
Here's the link for the Su-34 production.
Google either one of them and you will get other links that all prove the Russia will induct these two aircrafts.

more specifically Russian A2G weapons being poor is just hype thats all i will say and they were never used on innocent people and same thing you ask any one in west they will say oh yeah our PGMs are battle proven on poor afghans everyday.

Have you heard of Chechnya? Plus the US is constantly dropping bombs and A2G ordinances, so at least they are proven to work, when's the last time Russia did consistent A2G missions?
now a future mig29k and mig29kub india going to acquire will have aesa radars

Well all of the Mig-29K's India plans on accruing will have the Zhuk-ME radar which is NOT an Aesa, the Aesa is on the Mig-35 and its the Zhuk-AE. I remember reading an article saying that Russia was willing to put the Zhuk-AE on the Mig-29's but I don't think India chose that option.
and mig29kub is able to carry aesa radar+gun+4 elta jammers+2*kh31+2*WVR+a fuel tank in one go and it becomes mig29kub growler

That's not a Mig-Growler, its just a Mig-29kub with extra jamming pods. It takes a tell of a lot more than 4 jamming pods to turn an aircraft into something like the Growler. If all it took were just advanced Jamming pods don't you think most countries would have their own dedicated EW aircraft?

and talking of PGM both EADS/SAAB have various weapons from various countries and that weapon integration money they will take from indian pocket

Those aircraft were originally designed to carry weapons from various countries, at least the Gripen was. So if India bought any of those fighters they would already have the integration completed for those foreign weapons. It would be up to those foreign governments (mainly USA) to approve India's purchase of them. It wouldn't cost India extra money to integrate it its already been done, your missing the point. With russia the Mig-35 was never designed to fire, the Python-5, Derby, ASRAAM, Brimstone, etc. Hence it would cost India extra Time and Money to integrate those weapons. That's not what they want at this point. The MRCA need to be inducted as quickly as possible.

sir,no one else has phaltoo money to just drop costly PGMs in vain except americans.

sir i am also aware of that zhuk me is not aesa radar its pulse doppler

and for future 30 mig29k/kub india is going to acquire for navy and there is option for aesa radar and thats why i used the "future" word

mig29k/kub right now have zhuk me pulse doppler radar.

and i am also aware of that there is need of more processing power in mig29k while carrying 4 EW pods but what our defense establishments doing in this regard and this is much cheaper and can be done at home than buying a growler

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 20 Jun 2009 10:46

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... =paris2009

Typhoon T3A To Have Mechanical Array Radar

The bulk of Eurofighter Tranche 3A aircraft will likely initially be fitted with the Captor M mechanically-scanned array radar

. . .

“There are some difficult decisions to make,” says the executive, suggesting a conclusion could take some time. Within the radar industrial community there is pressure to secure an AESA program for the Typhoon as soon as possible.

One candidate approach would be to replace the radar’s mechanically scanned array with an active array, while retaining the majority of the rest of the Captor architecture. This would help to control cost, but would not offer as much of a performance gain as an all new design.


If that's the AESA they go with, that would be pretty disappointing as it wouldn't be able to take advantage of all the special AESA capabilties.

CAESAR made a successful operational airborne test in 2006 and they don't think it will be ready in 2013. This is a good example of why I think people underestimate the difficulty of adding new technology. It was WORKING IN FLIGHT and yet they will need OVER 7 YEARS to finish it. And even then, it possibly won't have all the capabilities that make an AESA so desirable.

This is why I keep emphasizing the advantage of selecting an aircraft that is a) fully developed and b) backed by an organization that has demonstrated its ability and commitment to consistently integrate new technology.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby b_patel » 20 Jun 2009 12:13

sir,no one else has phaltoo money to just drop costly PGMs in vain except americans.

Never said anything about that! Plus American PGM are much cheaper than anyone else's. American Missile are much cheaper than their french counterparts! Look at the price of the Mica, its ridiculous.

If that's the AESA they go with, that would be pretty disappointing as it wouldn't be able to take advantage of all the special AESA capabilties.

CAESAR made a successful operational airborne test in 2006 and they don't think it will be ready in 2013. This is a good example of why I think people underestimate the difficulty of adding new technology. It was WORKING IN FLIGHT and yet they will need OVER 7 YEARS to finish it. And even then, it possibly won't have all the capabilities that make an AESA so desirable.

This is why I keep emphasizing the advantage of selecting an aircraft that is a) fully developed and b) backed by an organization that has demonstrated its ability and commitment to consistently integrate new technology.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :(( :((
Then the chances for the Eurofighter to win the MRCA have gone down the drain, Damn!. India wants a working AESA radar not some patched up Captor Aesa with limited capabilities. I truly thought that if they had full A2G and CAESAR integration done by 2010-2011 it would have had a very good chance of winning the MRCA. For some reason it seems EADS doesn't care about the future of the Eurofighter (but the financial crisis has made it very hard to fulfill contract agreements) , which I don't understand. An Interim solution would be to offer the Eurofighter with Elta's 2052 Aesa radar but I don't know if the radar would fit in the EF or if EADS would even allow it. I doubt India would mind they love Israeli weapons.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby AmitR » 20 Jun 2009 12:38

GeorgeWelch wrote:http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_airshow.jsp?channel=busav&id=news/PRADAR0618.xml&show=paris2009

It seems that we are slowly but surely narrowing down to the F18. Be happy Georgy boy.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby ashish raval » 20 Jun 2009 13:38

The issue of MRCA is tricky. First if MRCA is viewed in context to China and not Pakistan it makes sense to go for American aircraft because F-18 will never go to China, this cannot be said for other fighters including Rafale or EF or Migs. Moreover, MRCA is just one stick in whole bunch. I guess IAF realizes that pakis can be taken care of by Mig's, Mirage's, Jags and LCA, the issue lies on our capability wrt china. The deadly combo of Su-MKI's and F-18 in Eastern Air Command will be enough to let china know what lies in store for them wrt a2a, a2g fighting. We need 100 Su's and 100 F-18's in Arunachal by 2012 :twisted: . Sanctions/End user inspection are an issue but I think both US and India has came much long way and matured in relationship so I guess it will not be the most trickiest issue to be sorted out. Guess at the moment going for best weaponery wrt china makes bigger sense than thinking too much about Pukes.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Sontu » 20 Jun 2009 14:47

ashish raval wrote:The issue of MRCA is tricky. First if MRCA is viewed in context to China and not Pakistan it makes sense to go for American aircraft because F-18 will never go to China, this cannot be said for other fighters including Rafale or EF or Migs. Moreover, MRCA is just one stick in whole bunch. I guess IAF realizes that pakis can be taken care of by Mig's, Mirage's, Jags and LCA, the issue lies on our capability wrt china. The deadly combo of Su-MKI's and F-18 in Eastern Air Command will be enough to let china know what lies in store for them wrt a2a, a2g fighting. We need 100 Su's and 100 F-18's in Arunachal by 2012 :twisted: . Sanctions/End user inspection are an issue but I think both US and India has came much long way and matured in relationship so I guess it will not be the most trickiest issue to be sorted out. Guess at the moment going for best weaponery wrt china makes bigger sense than thinking too much about Pukes.


NO! I think at this moment India and the entire world as a whole are facing the biggest threat of Paki NUKES buried deep under hills, south of Sargodha Air Base and under hills of Gilgit in Pak. This is THE MOST IMMINENT THREAT the world including India is facing. US is trying to cool Pak for the moment with aids and other gadgets to have control on Pak ARMY(who actually control these nukes) and in the mean time building own capabilities as well as collaborating with India and Israel to mop up these threat ....if required.
Hence India needs a very very reliable Strike package (aircraft + receiving coordinate data sensors + targeting sensors+ armaments ) to make 200% sure that if an air strike is given a go ahead ,the IAF should make sure that it's aircrafts and avionics are able get to the latest coordinates from US ,Israel and Indian own sources on the fly and be able to convert these facilities and bunkers to dust..using only accurate and lethal TACTICAL armaments .

Hence came earlier Indian selection of MIRAGE-2000 (based on Kargil experience and evaluations), but IAF thought to evaluate all the latest strike packages that the world has, using MRCA tender.
Looking at the above main criteria ..we can surely conclude that India will go for a package with a Two seater ( a very very important WSO role for the above strike requirement) and with a Twin engine version for survivility and 100% success of the mission.

Please note : Mirage-2000 was successful in busting caves in Kargil ,which were not so well protected i.e. Not so deep inside the hills and not so well reinforced by concrete, with good accuracy though. but now requirement for busting Very Deep and Very Heavily reinforced concrete caves of Sargodha hill and Northern areas...we need more accurate and lethal dose :wink:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby ashish raval » 20 Jun 2009 17:18

^^ so why do you think the above thing cannot be accomplished using SU-30MKI. We dont need american aircrafts for precision bombing it can be done by any aircraft today.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby AmitR » 20 Jun 2009 18:19

ashish raval wrote:^^ so why do you think the above thing cannot be accomplished using SU-30MKI. We dont need american aircrafts for precision bombing it can be done by any aircraft today.


because Unkil Sam will allow us to put boms on little paki only if we have Unkil's planes bought in hard cash.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby ashish raval » 20 Jun 2009 18:42

AmitR wrote:
ashish raval wrote:^^ so why do you think the above thing cannot be accomplished using SU-30MKI. We dont need american aircrafts for precision bombing it can be done by any aircraft today.


because Unkil Sam will allow us to put boms on little paki only if we have Unkil's planes bought in hard cash.


Is there a Paki logic behind it !! I think it is a fantasy to think on those lines.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2009 19:06

you see, the fact that the precision weapons delivery and target destroying user trial tests are not to be conducted in India, is not because its expensive to do such tests in India rather the respective countries, but its more on the mission that they would have to expose their RCS to Indian and other participating nations who might switch their radars on.

for the russkies this may not be the issue.. they might just do a live target destruction over our boundaries, and would be demonstrating their capabilities that could be un-matched!!!.

how are the rest going to attack this front from the russians, and impress IAF for the $12b deal?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2009 19:15

Ashish,

There was a report a few days ago about Obama willing to sell some tech to China for $50 billion (write off some stuff).

I do not think India can and should rely on these old fears - and that is what it is - fear.

Let anyone sell anything to anyone, India should be able to stand up to all this stupidity.

IMHO, it will be great if the US sells stuff to BOTH Pakistan and China. THAT is the ONLY WAY India will act within and fund R&D, etc. Else India will rely on outsiders.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2009 19:37


NO! I think at this moment India and the entire world as a whole are facing the biggest threat of Paki NUKES buried deep under hills, south of Sargodha Air Base and under hills of Gilgit in Pak. This is THE MOST IMMINENT THREAT the world including India is facing. US is trying to cool Pak for the moment with aids and other gadgets to have control on Pak ARMY(who actually control these nukes) and in the mean time building own capabilities as well as collaborating with India and Israel to mop up these threat ....if required.
Hence India needs a very very reliable Strike package (aircraft + receiving coordinate data sensors + targeting sensors+ armaments ) to make 200% sure that if an air strike is given a go ahead ,the IAF should make sure that it's aircrafts and avionics are able get to the latest coordinates from US ,Israel and Indian own sources on the fly and be able to convert these facilities and bunkers to dust..using only accurate and lethal TACTICAL armaments .


India needs NO strike package for those burried assets.

India ALREADY has a plan to change the geology of those hills (literally) in the event of a war. Latest rumors seem to suggest that Pakis are building stuff deeper to defend against such a strike.

Such an Indian strike cannot use planes. :wink:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby ashish raval » 20 Jun 2009 20:31

^^ yes, I believe IA did tested on those lines a few things recently. I dont believe that US will ever compromise on its strategic edge in weapons because it is their bread and butter. But, I completely agree that any sort of dependence on foreign tech is always detrimental to our stretegic objectives, however, given the situation around and maturity our weapons need to be considered battleworthy, it is still worth going for technology which gives an edge over neighbouring countries. F-18 is the only weapon system, I believe that pukes/chinese will never be able to lay its hands on.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2009 20:48

I believe IA did tested on those lines a few things recently.


10 years ago!!

The Paki response is "recent" - 2-3 years.

F-18 is the only weapon system, I believe that pukes/chinese will never be able to lay its hands on


I do not think it is true, but:

Is Obama Selling Military Secrets to China for Debt Forgiveness?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 20 Jun 2009 20:54



It's not true.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2009 21:22

I don't think this MRCA is all about "show me the money" but "show me the technology" (cost matters too) that can be shared and project future relationship and growth. American interests are largely from the perspective of establishing a good relationship with India, at strategic level and further invade the defence sector.

Russians currently enjoy 70%.. and if they have to replace them, then they have to beat the russians in their own game. Else, its going to be difficult with a nation like India, where the culture that drives the men who may be very influentual in the decision making process, are still driven by certain aspects that will touch what all these new relationship means, and how it might be beneficial to us in the longer term.

Unless we list out how the competing nations are going to attack Russian agenda, we would have no clue how various competitors going to emerge here.
Last edited by SaiK on 20 Jun 2009 21:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby b_patel » 20 Jun 2009 21:23

I do not think it is true, but:
Is Obama Selling Military Secrets to China for Debt Forgiveness?

This is in no way true. Obama would be retarded if he sold those plans to the Chinese. It would tilt the balance of power in Asia so much!

^^ so why do you think the above thing cannot be accomplished using SU-30MKI. We don't need American aircraft's for precision bombing it can be done by any aircraft today.

Unfortunately, you do. The RCS on the SU-30MKI it too large for deep strike missions, it would be picked up on radar long before it reached its target. Unless the RCS manages to come down A LOT its giant target for China's SAM's. Its an amazing aircraft but the RCS is its Achilles heel. Thankfully two of the front runners F-18 SH and Rafale are very good deep strike aircraft's.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby p_saggu » 20 Jun 2009 21:27

NRao wrote:India ALREADY has a plan to change the geology of those hills (literally) in the event of a war. Latest rumors seem to suggest that Pakis are building stuff deeper to defend against such a strike.

I believe IA did tested on those lines a few things recently.


10 years ago!!

1. The vibrating earthquake Bomb or
2. The Nukes ?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2009 21:31

it depends.. normally when we consider deep strikes say in north-eastern sector, that would mean deploying awacs and mid-air-refuellers, and those have very large RCS. So, there would in a sense only about few minutes to finish the mission, if the enemy finds and counters with SAM, and their versions of sukhois.

lower RCS aircrafts should be supported by lower RCS support aircrafts for deep strikes.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby b_patel » 20 Jun 2009 21:39

lower RCS aircrafts should be supported by lower RCS support aircrafts for deep strikes.

But at this point india doesn't have any low RCS aircraft's for deep strike missions besides the Jaguar, and I don't consider them too capable of deep strike missions at this point until they are upgraded. I would not send Mig-27 on deep strike missions, even the upgraded ones. That leaves the SU-30MKI which would be detected early.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 20 Jun 2009 22:03

b_patel wrote:Thankfully two of the front runners F-18 SH and Rafale are very good deep strike aircraft's.


With AWACS and S-300 PESA radar the F-18 , Rafale or MKI will be pinned down like a butterfly.

You need real stealth to deal with AWACS and S-300 , so called advertorial low RCS F-18 , Rafale are no good.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2009 22:42

p_saggu,

Close. But let it slide - another thread stuff.

b_patel wrote:
lower RCS aircrafts should be supported by lower RCS support aircrafts for deep strikes.

But at this point india doesn't have any low RCS aircraft's for deep strike missions besides the Jaguar, and I don't consider them too capable of deep strike missions at this point until they are upgraded. I would not send Mig-27 on deep strike missions, even the upgraded ones. That leaves the SU-30MKI which would be detected early.


Against which country?

Pakistan is rather shallow. The initial risk is high, but once India gets a break through, it should not be too far before it is overwhelmed (at a cost granted).

China is a different story. Once the Indian politician decides to attack, this will require real deep penetration I would think - nothing of worth near the Indian border.

In either case a "Growler" of sorts will be required. And, India is ready for that.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 21 Jun 2009 01:04

The Su30MKI, though OT, should not be bad on RCS, cause of DRDO/Russkie developed RAM coatings and further there was an augmentation thought about using LCA's composite factory for making composite MKI parts. Should that be true, it should bring down RCS. We can't do much about its air-intakes though./OT.

Consider Rafale or EF2K typhoon for better RCS plane rather than Mig35 or any teenage sensations from the khans. EF2K should be the king, Rafale the queen for RCS is my assumption based on news reports.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby arun » 21 Jun 2009 11:41

UK’s Times touts the Euro Fighter and the F/A 18 Super Hornet as the favourites to win the MMRCA deal:

From The Sunday Times

June 21, 2009

Eurofighter guns for £10bn Indian deal

BAE Systems is preparing for a dogfight that could result in it landing an order for 130 modern fighter jets for India

Dominic O'Connell

The fortunes of Eurofighter, the much-criticised European combat aircraft, could improve sharply next month when it stakes a claim for a multi-billion-pound contract in India.

India wants to buy more than 130 modern fighters, making the contract one of the largest international arms deals in recent years. Analysts say that with ongoing support deals, it could be worth more than £10 billion.

If Eurofighter wins, it would be a boon for BAE Systems, Britain’s largest defence group, which is part of the four-nation consortium that makes the high-tech aircraft.

The competition for the contract starts next month, when the six planes selected by India begin a fly-off that will consist of a series of trials throughout the subcontinent. The six taking part are Eurofighter, Boeing’s F/A-18, Lockheed Martin’s F-16, France’s Rafale, Russia’s MiG-35 and Sweden’s Gripen.

Defence analysts said the contest would probably come down to a race between the Eurofighter and the F/A-18. “They look like the most likely contenders,” said one source at last week’s Paris air show. The Indian government is unlikely to make a speedy choice, with the trials expected to last for up to a year. …………….......................

Times

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Drevin » 21 Jun 2009 17:27

Surprise... Surprise .... I thought EADS was engaging MoD with the Eurofighter and not BAE.

Does this mean BAE is actively trying to offload its tranche 3 Typhoon obligations on us :?: :P

Any UK members of BR can explain arun's article above.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 21 Jun 2009 17:58

arun wrote:UK’s Times touts the Euro Fighter and the F/A 18 Super Hornet as the favourites to win the MMRCA deal:

From The Sunday Times

June 21, 2009

Eurofighter guns for £10bn Indian deal

BAE Systems is preparing for a dogfight that could result in it landing an order for 130 modern fighter jets for India

Dominic O'Connell

The fortunes of Eurofighter, the much-criticised European combat aircraft, could improve sharply next month when it stakes a claim for a multi-billion-pound contract in India.

India wants to buy more than 130 modern fighters, making the contract one of the largest international arms deals in recent years. Analysts say that with ongoing support deals, it could be worth more than £10 billion.

If Eurofighter wins, it would be a boon for BAE Systems, Britain’s largest defence group, which is part of the four-nation consortium that makes the high-tech aircraft.

The competition for the contract starts next month, when the six planes selected by India begin a fly-off that will consist of a series of trials throughout the subcontinent. The six taking part are Eurofighter, Boeing’s F/A-18, Lockheed Martin’s F-16, France’s Rafale, Russia’s MiG-35 and Sweden’s Gripen.

Defence analysts said the contest would probably come down to a race between the Eurofighter and the F/A-18. “They look like the most likely contenders,” said one source at last week’s Paris air show. The Indian government is unlikely to make a speedy choice, with the trials expected to last for up to a year. …………….......................

Times

probably writer of this article forget that india's deal is worth 10-11 billion dollars not 10 billion pounds,it also shows that writer being british knows prices in pounds only and thats why he mentioned pounds instead of dollars

UK also trying to sell 72 more typhoons to saudi arabia for about 5 billion pounds
just think how much how much 126 typhoons would cost india and that too with tech transfer

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Guddu » 21 Jun 2009 21:25

Dont know if it is just smoke & mirrors.
Orbat reporting...
"Indian unlikely to buy US fighter aircraft says a defense person whose name we must withhold. He says that several smaller deals, still worth billions of dollars, will be signed: in addition to the 6 x C-130Js already ordered for the Special Forces, another 8 will be ordered; as will 12 CH-47s, likely 22 attack helicopters, and Harpoon SSMs. The reason the fighter deal will not go through is that India refuses to accept US controls over the aircraft, the so-called end-user requirement. Since the US Congress for its part will not budge, this $10-billion deal for 126 fighters (six squadrons) will not happen."

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby dorai » 21 Jun 2009 22:47

Gripen radar at Paris air show. Looks like they might be taking the inner track ahead of the other canards...

Image

The Raven builds on the programs of both companies, including the antenna technology developed for Selex Galileo’s Vixen AESA family and ongoing PS-05/A development work. The radar has around 1,000 transmit/receive modules, mounted on an angled swashplate.

Swashplate technology allows the radar to be repositioned so that it scan a wider volume of sky than if it was fixed. Saab quotes a scan angle of 100 degrees from the centerline, allowing ES-05 to see targets behind the so-called “3-9 line.” The angled positioning of the antenna also helps to reduce frontal radar cross section.

The Raven radar has been approved for export, with Selex Galileo owning its own codes.


http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-ne ... -year-end/


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