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Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:those countries already flying older hornet they can just upgrade their hornets with apg80 aesa radar and all other PGMs which super hornet able to carry so i will say aussies just wasted their money on superhornet
They are doing exactly what you suggest with their HUG program (except AESA), yet they still don't don't consider these modernized Hornets an adequate F-111 replacement.
They do consider the SH as an adequate F-111 replacement.
Not to mention half of them are pre-wired for conversion to Growler/Grizzly which will be very useful even after the F-35 arrives.
Drevin wrote:
Still the internal weapons bay on a Rafale has more significance.
Rafale -> already got LO design-will truly become 5th gen with internal weapons
su30mki -> not LO-with internal weapons it still won't be 5th gen
Thats why I said on Rafale it will be nice. It makes more sense for Rafale than MKI because of reasons above.
Give a post some credit before you comment on it. In your hurry to go all patriotic on me you failed to see the main point being conveyed.
I agree with you that internal weapons bay makes more sense for rafale than MKI. However, you seem to have overestimated the stealth techs used in rafale. The major stealth feature of rafale is its s shaped inlets. Spectra integrated EW suite also helps. But even with all this, even with an internal weapons bay, Rafale will not come even close to a 5th gen fighter. Shape is everything in stealth. And rafale's fuselage was certainly not designed with stealth as a priority. However this is getting ot, as is generally the case with this thread.
MRCA will last atleast till 2045. Definitely needs to be stealthy. I'm afraid to say that internal weapons is the only way out for all these mrca contenders that are there now. maybe not now but definitely as an mlu. Not needed for mki because we jump to fgfa asap.
look at it this way: Our investment in mki rewarded us with the fgfa. Thats a massive reward. And that is why mrca is only 126.
Last edited by Drevin on 27 Jul 2009 00:14, edited 3 times in total.
Methinks Rafale is too small to have an internal weapons bay.
However Flanker series can be converted into a stealth aircraft with considerable amount of redesign.
Having low RCS is nothing great. You should have RCS below a threshold.
Apparently F-22 has a RCS of -45dBsm and F-35 about -25dBsm and F-35 is detectable by good AESA radars at beyond visual range. (Implication is RCS of F-22 is 1/100th of F-35 and about 1/10000 of a Rafale and 1/100000 of a Flanker) [I got a doc from a website. Don't know how authentic the numbers are]
There is no use in designing stealth aircraft which do not have adequate stealth. You can improve ECM and countermeasures and have strength in numbers at those costs.
mki will be followed immediately by the 5th gen fgfa, 2020ish prolly. No such thing happening with the mrca. mrca gonna last till 2045 atleast. mrca is the most likely candidate for add-on internal weapons bay me thinks. all of em. If grippen mrca gets chosen .... that too.
rohiths wrote:Methinks Rafale is too small to have an internal weapons bay.
However Flanker series can be converted into a stealth aircraft with considerable amount of redesign.
Having low RCS is nothing great. You should have RCS below a threshold.
Apparently F-22 has a RCS of -45dBsm and F-35 about -25dBsm and F-35 is detectable by good AESA radars at beyond visual range. (Implication is RCS of F-22 is 1/100th of F-35 and about 1/10000 of a Rafale and 1/100000 of a Flanker) [I got a doc from a website. Don't know how authentic the numbers are]
There is no use in designing stealth aircraft which do not have adequate stealth. You can improve ECM and countermeasures and have strength in numbers at those costs.
And how do you convert a Flanker into a stealth aircraft ? Rip off those engine nacelles, wings, canopy, vertical stabalizers and replace them with something stealthy ? And to get it *really* stealthy develop completely new bonding methods, increase the production tolerances by a factor of 100 and get a new radar ?
Well, I wouldn't call that redesign, what you propose is a new aircraft with some components taken from the flanker.
An IAF source said testing the weapons abroad was necessary as it was difficult to replicate their home country conditions in India.
dont we need to know how the weapons work in the sub continent climate ? some one enlighten please
It might be related to Weapon storage....All the weapons have their storage mechanisms/procedures, since India doesnt have these kind of weaponry it would be tough to build up the infrastructure just for testing purpose...
All these is done to expediate the selection process.
This is what i can think of, unless someone else wants to add in.
An IAF source said testing the weapons abroad was necessary as it was difficult to replicate their home country conditions in India.
dont we need to know how the weapons work in the sub continent climate ? some one enlighten please
It's about laws, regulations and liability. Each country has different set of laws that allow their citizens to operate those explosives under those guidelines.
For instance it may be against Indian law to permit a French citizen to fire live bombs in India that are not certified by Indian establishment.
The July 20th issue of AWST has some interesting articles,which have a bearing on the contest.
First,that the IAF is getting worried about the LCA delays and needs 5 sqds. of MK-2s,which if an alternative engine is selected,will have to be tested by 2012 to be in service in 2013.The IAF is worried that a "technological gap" will occur,while the JSF will be flying by then and that the Chinese have "something similar".This is probably the key unmentioned reason why the IAF is plumping for an MMRCA,as the MK-2 development could be further delayed as the aircraft's design will have to be modified to fit a larger new engine.
The two engines,GE-414 and EJ-200 are being considered for the LCA-MK2.The EJ has an advantage,being part of EADS,who have a contract for LCA consultancy.This might boost the chances of the Eurofighter Typhoon.The Kaveri development is nowhere in the picture and is probably going to be consigned to history.
The F-22 Raptor,which is being located only at US bases for its air national guard and reserves,including Hawaii,is being lusted after by the Japanese who are offering double the cost,about $280 million per peice! The Japanese have rejected the JSF F-35 and other variants of the F-15.According to Lt.Gen.Utterbeck, in charge of 18th Air Force,from reports by "friends",the Russian SU-30s especially and MIG-29s are more reliable these days than earlier Russian aircraft.The only aircraft that can take on the Flanker is the F-22 which is why the Japanese want it.Their F-15s are outclassd by the Chinese Flankers (SU-30MKKs).The Japanese (in other media reports) are supposed to have warned the US that it would buy the Typhoon if the F-22 was not sold to it.An interesting observation is that the Japanese islands close to the Chinese mainland are about 150-200nm away,within the F-22s AESA radar range.The F-15J's radar has a range of only about 60NM.
This evaluation of the Flanker vs JSF,etc, is also borne out by earlier posted evaluations by Oz,who have rejected any further buys of F-18SHs.According to the Oz evaluation,the further upgrades of Flankers (4+ gen),with reported more powerful 3-D TVC engines and other stealth features (internal weapons bay between the modified engine intakes,smart skins,etc.) will outclass any other fighter,JSF and Eurocanards included,other than the F-22.Acquiring a cheaper more capable Flanker than an MMRCA is an option that is tempting to the IAF.It is perhaps one reason why extra Flankers are being ordered.
Another report has more details about the Georgian War and the Russian air losses to Georgian air defences,all of Russian origin.The "double-digit" Russian SAMs of the S-300 family are particularly lethal,which is why the US and Israel do not want them to be sold to Iran and Syria.Even the '80s Russian Buk-1 SAM (SA-11),is very sophisticated and shot down 4 Russian losses,including an SU-24 and a Backfire strategic bomber(sent on a tactical bombing mission),despite Russian aircraft having good EW systems.Other extra losses claimed by an independent Russian think tank due to MANPADS are questioned by US intel,which believes the Russian figures.The Russians supposedly did not plan the offensive properly,with poor ground and air coordination.
This is supposed to be the first modern air war.Future Russian SAMs,including replacements for the IGLA MANPADS series being developed will be even more difficult to counter and even stealth capability will deteriorate in the future with newer air defences.The need today therfore is for aircraft to possess the EW ability to look for "joints and seams" in the air defences' communications networks to defeat it.
From the above reports,it is clear that the future for the IAF should lie in the advanced 5th-gen tech fighter and this project is crucial to the IAF's future regional air dominance and must be given top priority in funding and development (this is because the first flight of the PA-FA 5th-gen fighter si to take place later this year and production expected in 5 years time when the LCA-MK-2 is also scheduled to be in production!).Acquiring extra 4+ gen.SU-30MKIs,upgrades of serving aircraft and building more upgraded Jaguars and MIG-29/35s in addition,is the cheapest and common-sense way to go,if the need for the MMRCA is to make up numbers at a cost-effective price.Perhaps only the Typhoon and Rafale are the aircraft which will have a long future ahead and remain relevant if our intention is to acquire cutting edge tech. as a key priority also.The F-16 and F-18 belong to the past,with the MIG-35 a decade ahead in design.The dark horse is the Gripen,but if it comes with US strings is a dead duck,but offers a cost-effective alternative if the LCA stumbles.The IAF should take a close look at the future plans and aspirations of other air forces around the globe if we plan to spend $10 billion on just this important acquisition.
PS:March,there is a pic in the "F" Mag,of the upgraded 4+ Flanker with an internal weapons bay between the two engine trunkings,also featuring redesigned intakes.The space is huge,I've even walked between the aircraft.Greater use of composites assist stealth and an earlier issue reveals details of the three layers of wing coatings which are the key to the F-22's stealth.
'Perhaps only the Typhoon and Rafale are the aircraft which will have a long future ahead and remain relevant if our intention is to acquire cutting edge tech'
Rafale has a Naval variant (carrier launched) - Rafale M which makes it more relevant for us. Additionally, Rafales were sent to Afghanistan where they demonstrated high mission availability and impressive combat capability. With the successful completion of Thales RBE2 AESA radar trials on Rafale, Dassault is set to take delivery of the first two radars as scheduled in the first quarter of 2010 The RBE2 will be fully compatible, in terms of detection range, with the new Meteor beyond-visual-range (BVR) missile. Rafale will also receive a new missile launch detector and an optronic search and track (IRST), improving target detection and identification performance while maintaining low observability and minimum emission by radar. These systems will become operational with Rafale aircraft delivered to the French Air Force and French Navy beginning 2012
An IAF source said testing the weapons abroad was necessary as it was difficult to replicate their home country conditions in India.
dont we need to know how the weapons work in the sub continent climate ? some one enlighten please
The phoren babas have tested their aircrafts in their home lands (out of south asia) onlee. Its just us being fair to the manufacturers, so that we can confirm the performance data in their RFPs at a place where they have been testing all these years. Ofcourse, the real thing will be testing them in the desh in varied conditions.
Philip wrote:The IAF is worried that a "technological gap" will occur,while the JSF will be flying by then and that the Chinese have "something similar".
I guess the IAF planners are grossly underestimating the Chinese J-XX program. Even if Typhoon and Rafale end up being as effective in actual combat as claimed, they are no match for a stealthy 5th gen fighter.
With so much cyber theft and espionage, and proven reverse engineering capabilities, the Chink's program should be very close if not ahead of Pak-Fa. I don't think they can match the Russians in specs and quality, but timing is a different ball game. Just look at how fast they have copies conformal fuel tanks and DSI intakes from the F16s on to J-10B. If the paki forums are any indication, these enhancement are being tested atleast since 2007.
Kailash wrote:I guess the IAF planners are grossly underestimating the Chinese J-XX program.
Whats makes you think they will get close to the PAK-FA dear? If you are believing the whines of US Congressmen, they are just doing so just to keep the F-22 production line running.
Kailash wrote:Just look at how fast they have copies conformal fuel tanks and DSI intakes from the F16s on to J-10B. If the paki forums are any indication, these enhancement are being tested atleast since 2007.
Its an open secret that the Israelis sold the IAI Lavi plans to them. Its akin to ToT, not reverse engineering. So no big deal. JMT.
Dmurphy wrote:Whats makes you think they will get close to the PAK-FA dear? If you are believing the whines of US Congressmen, they are just doing so just to keep the F-22 production line running
An accelerated J-XX may nullify the MMRCA edge in IAF. The speed of the program is the issue here, not the capability of contenders. The relevance of the MMRCA deal rests on the fact that these crafts will significantly out perform the Paki and Chinki crafts for aleast 10-15 years without any upgrades.
We don't want to see another big deal of 5th gen (F-35 or Pak-Fa) crafts just because Chinese get a stealth bird became operational mid way of our MMRCA induction.
Kailash,the "something similar" of China,was with reference to the LCA,not the PAK-FA,though the Chinese are designing their own stealth fighter to try and match the JSF.I don't think that the Chinese can truly match either the Russians,as they've been fudging designs and reverse engineering their products,or the west.The Chinese will us espionage as a means of getting theri hands on western tech. as they supposedly stole all the US's N-warhead designs some time ago.Germany estimated that Chinese industrial espionage is costing them $50 billion a year.The decision to join hands with Russia in developing a 5th-gen fighter was a masterstroke that kept the Chinese out of acquiring the next-gen of fighter etch.china will most probably now try and steal UCAV tech from the priliferation of manufacturers worldwide to leapfrog the tech gap.
Philip wrote:The decision to join hands with Russia in developing a 5th-gen fighter was a masterstroke that kept the Chinese out of acquiring the next-gen of fighter etch.china will most probably now try and steal UCAV tech from the priliferation of manufacturers worldwide to leapfrog the tech gap.
How did India paying Russia keeps China out of acquiring 5th-gen fighter technology? I thought Mig was already partnering with China on 5th-gen tech as was the case with Russian engineers helping China get nuclear submarine.
Kailash wrote:An accelerated J-XX may nullify the MMRCA edge in IAF
You are indirectly comparing MMRCA with a 5th Gen a/c. MMRCA has a different role altogether and it's being brought in only to fill the gap left by the slow progress of Tejas and phasing out of the Mig-21s.
You could say an accelerated J-XX will go one up against a delayed PAK-FA.
abhiti wrote:I thought Mig was already partnering with China on 5th-gen tec
AFAIK, those are just rumours. The Russians have openly criticised the Chinese for re-engineering Su-27s. It would look very silly if they start helping them with cutting edge tech.
Weapons testing for the flight trials in the local country of manufacture ensures competitive element to the contest. Each contestant cannot possibly eaves drop on the others advantages in such an arrangement.
Not as a knock, contestants do not NEED to eavesdrop when they have access to files. And, even perhaps use beat writers to toss a few bad rumors. Eavesdropping, however, would not hurt.
Drevin wrote:Dassault should do a 'Boeing' and make a version of Rafale with internal weapons bays. That'd be nice.
Dassault would like to believe it is the 'Apple' among fighter aircraft manufacturers:
1. Will go alone on concept,design and execution.
2. Does not care about prevailing market dynamics.
3. The product is the most expensive one available? So what?
4. Is sure that end-user satisfaction and a GUI with pizzzaaz will justify all cost.
5. Will scrap a product before compromising on any of the above.
6. Will refuse to be part of a fair/expo/gathering where other PC-types have converged.
Drevin wrote:Dassault should do a 'Boeing' and make a version of Rafale with internal weapons bays. That'd be nice.
Dassault would like to believe it is the 'Apple' among fighter aircraft manufacturers:
1. Will go alone on concept,design and execution.
2. Does not care about prevailing market dynamics.
3. The product is the most expensive one available? So what?
4. Is sure that end-user satisfaction and a GUI with pizzzaaz will justify all cost.
5. Will scrap a product before compromising on any of the above.
6. Will refuse to be part of a fair/expo/gathering where other PC-types have converged.
If only it had an app-store for the rafale.....
Dear basher,
1&2 where french gov decisions based on industrial and political concerns: allow Safran (snecma) to retain its ability to produce military engines therefore allowing France to protect its independency (what is india trying to do setting up its own military industry ?).
3 utterly false, Rafale is about 80m$ flyaway when F18 is said to be 60-70m$ and eurofighter typhoon up to 100m$. (while rafale would be the cheaper to field). Yes weapons are costier, same answer than 1&2.
4 Well the current end user is happy with what it's gotten so far and not so displeased by the price considering the nearest contenders of the plane. On the other hand, Dassault is well aware of industrial and business realities, given that,
1- Rafale program will be profitable even without export success.
2- they cannot sell at a loss
5 ...
6 the significant gathering begins now (trials) and many Indian officers as well as servicemen already know the plane quite well.
To end this on a positive note, Rafale was granted the best solo display price at Fairford 2009, both by the officers college and the public. Here's a vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBHoZ_mtv20
Philip wrote:Kailash,the "something similar" of China,was with reference to the LCA,not the PAK-FA,though the Chinese are designing their own stealth fighter to try and match the JSF.I don't think that the Chinese can truly match either the Russians,as they've been fudging designs and reverse engineering their products,or the west.
My bad. I agree totally. But a even a half-cooked stealth fighter is going to be a problem for MRCA (may be not for Pak-Fa). An often repeated argument is that MRCA is to counter the growing Chinese threat (less Pak specific).
Dmurphy wrote:You are indirectly comparing MMRCA with a 5th Gen a/c.
Nope. My worry is India's selection and induction time lines. The Chinese developments are an unknown - in term of technology or time lines. Anyways this is getting way off topic, will stop here.
Kuwait: F-18 Super Hornet moves on, Rafale on the back burner
The talks on a deal for the F-18 Super Hornet are said to be moving on at the expense of the talks on the Rafale or the JAS39 Gripen. The following 469-word report included in Tactical Weekly of July 31, 2009 focuses on the position of Defence Minister Sheikh Jaber Al-Mubarak with regard to such eventuality. It also tells how Emir Sabah Al-Ahmad of Kuwait is reacting and whether there are still chances for a Rafale deal to go through
I haven't been following the Kuwait situation at all so I have no idea whether this is political, technical, some combination or something else entirely.
King said Typhoon's export prospects were good, although he rated its chance of winning an Indian competition for a new fighter as a "long shot."
This seems a strange thing to say, the normal modus operandi is to proclaim how confident you are that your product offers the best package and will obviously be chosen.
I am not a Rafale basher. I love it and the M2k...hope to see rafale in IAF colours.
That was a light hearted post comparing Dassault with Apple.... based on your justifications on the points of comparison, you seem to agree.
Is there a Steve Jobs equivalent at Dassault? Gurus here can talk for aeons about the russian design bureaus and new baby/expat gurus are sprouting for Boeing/LM - but have not seen much stuff on Dassault.
Moreover, a study to fit an active electronically scanned array radar on the fighter is due to be completed this year. That will help define a suitable upgrade roadmap. Although Casolini says “the technology is mature,” he suggests that fielding such a radar before 2013 would be difficult.
On one hand they say that operationalizing Meteor BVRAAM is priority, gaining traction, etc.... and on the other hand the article says there is no chance of an aesa before 2013. Isn't that a contradiction
How can a vanilla non-aesa captor be ideal for a meteor bvraam over entire envelope i.e. detection, tracking etc...
Secondly, UK is a very reluctant participant in the tranche3a batch. I doubt we will see UK and Italy investing in this plane beyond 2013 . This maybe the reason for EADS offering co-partner status for us if we purchase this as mrca.
Abhiti,Russia is using a strategy of selling China defence tech which is infrior to its latest tech and which it knows all about.That way China ,which it has never forgotten had a spat with it decades ago,in any crisis with Russia will be at a disadvantage as Russia will be easily able to counter Russian eqpt. sold to it.It is why China has been stealing western tech,also using Pak's ability to source western tech.,and modifying Russian designs.Russia is also pissed off with China's reverse engineering without paying any royalties.India being a trusted old friend is given far better eqpt, than Russia.By joning the 5th-gen project,it also prevented China from acquiring Russian tech beyond the Flanker which it also has.This way,the IAF will be one gen. ahead of China in the future unless China steals US/western tech successfully.
Here's news that might affect the Typhoon's chances.
Britain to buy 40 Typhoons but may not order any more
Britain has signed up to buy another 40 Eurofighter Typhoon fighter planes but cast doubt on the future of the programme by saying it was unlikely to need any more.
By Amy Wilson
Published: 5:46PM BST 31 Jul 2009
A Eurofighter Typhoon jet rolls on the taxiway at the Swiss Army Airbase in Emmen.. Photo: REUTERS/MICHAEL BUHOLZER
Under an agreement made with its partner nations, Germany, Spain and Italy, in 1998, Britain has another 48 Typhoons to buy, but Quentin Davies, defence equipment minister yesterday said there is "no further commitment".
"This is really tranche three," Mr Davies said. "I don't exclude the possibility that we will buy more aircraft in the future, but there is no present intent, nor any expectation from our partners nor any obligation. We have signed for the totality of our available spending, which is now committed."
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Defence projects threatened by cash crisisThe end of the programme would be a blow to defence company BAE Systems and engine-maker Rolls-Royce, which will make £2bn and more than £300m respectively from the 40 planes committed to yesterday.
The European partners building the aircraft agreed a €9bn (£7.7bn) contract to build 40 aircraft for the UK, 31 for Germany, 21 for Italy and 20 for Spain. The contract was agreed after BAE and its industrial partners EADS and Finmeccanica offered a cheaper maintenance and support deal for the life of the planes.
That contract will support 5,000 jobs at BAE in Britain at the height of production. Some 4,000 posts at engine-maker Rolls-Royce and its suppliers and a further 16,000 jobs across the UK aerospace industry also hinge on Eurofighter.
But since Britain signed a memorandum of understanding with Germany, Italy and Spain to buy 232 Eurofighters in 1998, the Ministry of Defence's priorities have changed. The conflict on the ground in Afghanistan is escalating and the Government has come under fire for failing to provide the necessary kit to soldiers serving there, particularly an adequate number of helicopters. The MoD's finances are expected to come under further pressure as the Government and its successor try to control the debts the country has built up as a result of the financial crisis.
It is now understood that no decision will be made on the remaining 48 Typhoons until after a strategic defence review has been carried out. The first detailed review for 10 years was announced earlier this month. A Green Paper is due in early 2010 but the review would not come until after a general election.
BAE said on Thursday activity in its fighter plane business would help to offset the drop-off in orders for armoured vehicles for the US military as it scales back in Iraq.
The company is making Typhoons for Saudi Arabia and hopes to win more export orders.
First to get of the mark will be Boeing’s F/A 18 Super Hornet that would be flown by IAF team of test pilots at Bangalore, Leh in Jammu and Kashmir and Jaisalmer in Rajasthan. Besides being a cold-weather terrain Leh is a high-altitude location while Jaisalmer is a desert area where hot winds blow.
Planning for the trial schedule began some time back with the Indian test pilots being trained at the vendor’s country of origin.
Officials said the possibility of the trials overlapping could not be ruled out since the IAF hopes to complete the exercise latest by March/April 2010. Once the trials are over and aircraft identified, commercial negotiations would commence.
More details on Russia's unease with China,why India is favoured over it for defence tech.Full article in the Indo-Russian thread.
"Russian TV recently claimed that Beijing has drawn up a secret plan. According to this top-secret blueprint, China is determined to grab back Russia's remote, but vast, far east region. China's strategy includes persuading migrants to settle in Russia, marry local women and steal or co-opt local businesses."
The IEx had a Sunday centre page pull out reg. the MMRCA contenders,with heaps of mistakes in text acompanying pics.Perish the media!
Info from Brazil... the airforce has now submitted their technical and costs report to the politicans.
In the last moment France lowered the price but is still the most expensive. It doesn't say what is included in the price but it should be the same items for all jets and over the same time.
And that is why mrca is only 126.
This maybe the reason for EADS offering co-partner status for us if we purchase this as mrca.