MRCA News and Discussion

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NRao
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 15 Jun 2009 18:21

As long as it is not 35 I am OK with it.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 15 Jun 2009 18:54

and as long as its not f18/16 i am also ok with that

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby AmitR » 15 Jun 2009 18:59

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:and as long as its not f18/16 i am also ok with that


Guys this nonsense is getting a bit too far

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 15 Jun 2009 19:10

kit wrote:Could be as Obama is trying out anything that might revitalise the american economy


The MRCA deal isn't anywhere near that big. If you've looked at all the trillions Obama is throwing around in 'stimulus' money, the MRCA deal means about squat to the US from an economic perspective. Some congressmen just slipped in an item to purchase another ~150 SHs that Obama didn't ask for, and those will all be assembled in the US.

Of course it has more of a direct impact on Boeing and LockMart, and it is the President's job to represent his country's interests, so I'm sure he will lobby for the F-16/F-18, just like all the other leaders will lobby for the product of their respective countries.

SivaVijay wrote:If the deal is not big then why send a spl envoy? the truth is Obama is hell bent on showing himself as the saviour of American working class and for that he wants to make us a scape goat to give job to a production line which much off his own allies have turned down and is obsolete just because all those working on that can get through for another 10 years...


How much does it cost to send a 'special enjoy'? Certainly less than $100k, which is peanuts. What is a 'special envoy' anyways? IF it is about the MRCA (and we don't know that), he's simply doing his job by lobbying for his country. I would expect no less, and so should every other country of their leader. I know you always see Sarkozy running out trying to sign deals.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 15 Jun 2009 19:11

What tech will the US transfer which is worth it/ It does not even want to transfer JSF tech to its closest ally Britain,infuriating the Brits,what do you think India will get....peanuts.The way to go for the future is developing the 5th-gen fighter ,which can take on the JSF and Raptor,plus accelerated edevelopment of UCAV tech,so that we have a significant number of UCAVs for all three servcies,long endurance,all alts. and stealthy.The US and NATO's use of them in Af-Pak shows how valuable they've become in prosecuting wars against outfits like the Taliban,etc.The LCA will be a low cost solution for a high-low mix of aircraft,as the famous saying goes,"there's quality in quantity".

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 15 Jun 2009 19:17

ok guys look at japan it had tech transfer for f15 anf F2,now can japan makes its own aircraft??
F2 proved to be disaster.

and how much TOT going to affect for MRCA,TOT example for su30mki which proved costly to indegenize. so how much this going to help this time.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 15 Jun 2009 19:33

Philip wrote:What tech will the US transfer which is worth it


That is for your negotiating teams to determine. If they don't find it worthwhile, then they won't sign the contract.

Philip wrote:The way to go for the future is developing the 5th-gen fighter ,which can take on the JSF and Raptor


Well, that is exactly what India is doing with the FGFA.

Philip wrote:The LCA will be a low cost solution for a high-low mix of aircraft,as the famous saying goes,"there's quality in quantity".


I think the quote goes, "Quantity has a quality all its own." :wink:

Which is part of the purpose of the MRCA. FGFA is still a ways out, LCA isn't ready for primetime, yet they need something NOW to replace all the fighters they are having to retire. There is a plan for the future, but they need something more immediate to maintain a credible capability.

Which is why I think the SH is the perfect plane for India. It is the most immediately combat-ready plane available and it is also reliable and affordable. Plus, it is the most likely to remain relevant into the future.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 15 Jun 2009 19:42

Philip,

Again, I am not sure where the disconnect is.

What has the US refusal of the JSF to the UK (for that matter what the US did after India test nukes, etc, etc, etc) to do with MRCA ToT - ? The MRCA has a RFP. The question is which vendor is willing/can meet that RFP.

From news reports ALL vendors - so far at least - have stated they can meet the RFP. From what I have read each vendor has been rather specific as to what they will transfer (and what they will not). So, that should settle the issue of ToT - for good I would hope.

From an Indian PoV all we can hope for is that India has put into the RFP all important techs that India will need to absorb into Indian industries.

Sure, FGFA is the way out, but that has nothing to do with the MRCA. Unless MRCA is cancelled it really does not matter - till then the RFP rules.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby p_saggu » 15 Jun 2009 20:06

One great thing that is going to come out of the whole MRCA saga apart from the IAF getting the aircraft and HAL / DRDO getting the tech, is that the IAF will have a fairly good idea of the capabilities of each aircraft taking part in the competition.

This intelligence in itself has immense value to the IAF. These contenders represent the top line products from all the different fighter manufacturing schools (Except the F-22 of course)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Ashutosh Malik » 15 Jun 2009 20:06

Without prejudice to any particular point of view in this debate, from certain messages in the last few days I got a distinct impression about how we will be taken for a ride or are likely to be.

Aren't we being a wee bit paranoid about what American can do to us etc - they can do only as much as we want them to, period. Bottomline is that we as a nation did not give in to American & British pressure on Kashmir even when we were down and out after losing the 1962 war!

And, while "only the paranoid survive" is a dictum I also believe in, we got to believe in our wisdom to make relatively correct decisions. Cant surely come across in any & every interaction with Americans et al, with a defensive reaction.

So while I don't have the technical knowledge to argue the case about the aircraft either way, I surely would like to believe that we are not a banana republic that will be taken for a ride by anybody. And while all of us love conspiracy theories once in a while (the one about Sonia Gandhi etc. has been carrying on for a while), India at the current stage of its development is not certainly what it was 20, 30 or 40 years ago.

BTW if one would remember about PL 480 - we had to important wheat from US in 50s because of famine - American had had huge production and did not know what to do with it and we needed the food so they gave it for relatively less amount, I think. And yet we kept on with our independence in strategic decision making relatively well. BTW I do believe that at that time we were trying to box above our weight class, in international relations, so to speak. Be that as it may, we kept our head down and did not give in to pressure on major issues of importance to us.

And relatively speaking our ruling establishment has been fairly successful in fending off both the Americans and the Russians all the years. I say "relatively speaking" because surely we could have done more, for example, we would have had greater strategic independence had we blasted the atom bomb before 1967 when the NPT came into being. And the fact that we did not blast the bomb had, again, less to do with international pressure and more to do with our own ideological blinkers and some ideals about peace etc., that nobody else of consequence believed in.

As for Obama, fact is Americans elected him overwhelmingly - I would think we can give them the right to decide how good or bad he is for them! Just like, at the end of the day, we could'nt care less about what the Americans would think of our Government.

Americans have always acted on the basis of their National Interest. And India needs to act in its National Interest. There is nothing in International diplomacy about getting emotional about any specific country, irrespective of whether at a people to people contact we love them, hate them or have no feelings in particular!

Cheers

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 15 Jun 2009 20:08

NRao wrote:only the first 14 (of the 126) ..).

SaiK wrote:you mean First 18?

NRao wrote:As long as it is not 35 I am OK with it.

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:and as long as its not f18/16 i am also ok with that

...
you all see now how things can go off the track? anyways, all your hatreds must be documented with solid reasonings. make your day.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 15 Jun 2009 20:41

Aren't we being a wee bit paranoid about what American can do to us etc


For one past experiences (bad?) die hard.

Second, we tend to forget that India is FAR more better today than in those days. Just that India has not learnt how to throw her weight around the way others do.

SaiK,

No hatred. Just logic. FGFA is a far better deal in its cat, and, IMHO F-18 + Rafale is a better deal in MRCA. Nothing to do with Russia or US or France. IMVVHO MiG needs to be laid to rest, and if it makes a diff: just like GM and Chrysler.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Anujan » 15 Jun 2009 21:31

NRao wrote:As long as it is not 35 I am OK with it.

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:and as long as its not f18/16 i am also ok with that


As long as the choose something and induct it fast without taking another 15 years, I am okay with it :P

On the other hand, even if they take 15 years and meanwhile if it provides an impetus to FGFA and MCA, I am okay with it too 8)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 15 Jun 2009 21:40

if the fishbone for the latter case is positive and visible, then it makes a stronger case for the $12b used wisely into FGFA and MCA rather.

on the mrca, so far that visibility is yet not established, and we have only 2 mile clear distance in these foggybottom issues.

clearer picture and stronger vision can make it more easier to predict. there is this 50-50 chance as well, that both are valid requirements with equal vision value.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby rajsunder » 16 Jun 2009 00:15

GeorgeWelch wrote:
p_saggu wrote:The fact is, the moment India does anything that US policy does not like (It does not have to extend to a level of holding the US embassy hostage for a year), all hell WILL break loose. The US WILL put on the squeeze at every possible choke point they have.


Venezuela does all sorts of stuff the US doesn't like.

The US still supports their F-16s.

Unless you anticipate India behaving significantly worse than Venezuela (and I don't), there isn't a problem.

just because of O I L

even with all that bad stuff going on, Venezuela does not stop the supply of OIL.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 00:24

if india want to check commitment of US then its better to go for honeywell F125 engine for jaguar upgrade and see whether americans allow tech transfer for these engines to be built in india or not.

but doubt that even if americans do this they will have various restrictiions and control over this,one can clearly say how many times people have come from rolls royce to check what india is doing with its adour engine.

[color=#BFFF00]its not to put all eggs in one basket[/color]

as you all know that american already have 7 billion dollars deal for

P8I 2.2 billion
C130J 1.2 billion

AND NOW 10 C17 3.5 to 4 billion
---------------------------------
its almost over 7 billion

so its not good idea to give americans more than this like MRCA otherwise it will be more like putting all eggs in one basket that is american basket

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 00:28

and also india going to buy heavy lift helicopters for which only boeing and sirkosky have been invited and

moreover there is high altitude and combat helicopter tender as well even if this goes to americans along with MRCA it will be real farce

and it will be called americanization of procurement rather than diversification

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 16 Jun 2009 00:38

rajsunder wrote: just because of O I L

even with all that bad stuff going on, Venezuela does not stop the supply of OIL.


What is Venezuela going to do? threaten to stop selling oil on the world market? :rotfl:

The fall in oil prices has already crippled the Venezuelan economy. They simply HAVE to keep pumping.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby p_saggu » 16 Jun 2009 00:41

There is more to the MRCA than merely beefing up IAF numbers very rapidly.

There is a tech transfer issue involved, tech which will surely translate into LCA MK2 and the MCA being more lethal fighting machines.

There is an issue of developing Indian aviation industry as a whole with the offsets, give the ancillaries an oppertunity to go global as viable, high-tech and low cost replacements to many suppliers around the world.

There is an issue of gaining leverage within the polity of the nation which will eventually win this contract.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 16 Jun 2009 00:44

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:so its not good idea to give americans more than this like MRCA otherwise it will be more like putting all eggs in one basket that is american basket


Hardly, even if an American product wins the MRCA, there's still:

LCA, Su-30MKI, FGFA, MCA, MiG-29, Mirage-2000, Jaguar, and that's not even counting the older MiGs.

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:moreover there is high altitude and combat helicopter tender as well even if this goes to americans along with MRCA it will be real farce


Why? Because American products will now make up 7% of the Indian military instead of 3%?

The US could win every single competition in India for the next 10 years (which of course isn't going to happen anyways) and still not make a large proportion of Indian forces.
Last edited by GeorgeWelch on 16 Jun 2009 00:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 00:45

GeorgeWelch wrote:
rajsunder wrote: just because of O I L

even with all that bad stuff going on, Venezuela does not stop the supply of OIL.


What is Venezuela going to do? threaten to stop selling oil on the world market? :rotfl:

The fall in oil prices has already crippled the Venezuelan economy. They simply HAVE to keep pumping.


let you know oil prices going to increase again

and an american pay less price for petrol in US compared to indians pay more per litre price for petrol here in india despite being poorer

so crude oil price decreased in world stage and slumped to 40 dollar from 140 dollar a barrel a barrel even than in india prices have not been decreased and poor people has to pay the price for petrol .
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 16 Jun 2009 00:46

p_saggu wrote:There is more to the MRCA than merely beefing up IAF numbers very rapidly.

There is a tech transfer issue involved, tech which will surely translate into LCA MK2 and the MCA being more lethal fighting machines.

There is an issue of developing Indian aviation industry as a whole with the offsets, give the ancillaries an oppertunity to go global as viable, high-tech and low cost replacements to many suppliers around the world.


Sure, but that's built into the RFP and everyone's said they will meet, so I'm assuming it isn't going to be a competitive difference. (Except in the sense that you're already getting full tech transfer from Russian on the FGFA, so what could you possibly gain from the MiG-35?)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 16 Jun 2009 00:48

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:What is Venezuela going to do? threaten to stop selling oil on the world market? :rotfl:

The fall in oil prices has already crippled the Venezuelan economy. They simply HAVE to keep pumping.


let you know oil prices going to increase again


It doesn't matter, their economy depends on oil exports. Cutting production would slit their own throats. And Chavez values his throat.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 00:50

GeorgeWelch wrote:
p_saggu wrote:There is more to the MRCA than merely beefing up IAF numbers very rapidly.

There is a tech transfer issue involved, tech which will surely translate into LCA MK2 and the MCA being more lethal fighting machines.

There is an issue of developing Indian aviation industry as a whole with the offsets, give the ancillaries an oppertunity to go global as viable, high-tech and low cost replacements to many suppliers around the world.


Sure, but that's built into the RFP and everyone's said they will meet, so I'm assuming it isn't going to be a competitive difference. (Except in the sense that you're already getting full tech transfer from Russian on the FGFA, so what could you possibly gain from the MiG-35?)


it is also worth to think what one possibly to get from rafale,f16/18,typhoon???????

knowing rd33 engine production in india,infrastructure alredy exixt for mig29/29k
trained personnel.

one must not forget weapons also cost in billions and we don't need to buy weapons for mig35 as weapons to be used on su30mki same weapons can also be used on mig35 as well
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby vsudhir » 16 Jun 2009 00:59

Must say, I am finding Sri George Welch's arguments very convincing indeed. (Not that it matters how convinced I am).

In fact I am as convinced as some otherwise well meaning Indians were regarding the IPI pipeline. We had gen Musharraf's ironclad assurances of transit security, just like we will soon have ironclad guarantees of 'no drama' from the US mil-industrial complex for the MRCA.

Neither takes away from the fact that like the TSPian ISI, the US Congress is sovereign by design and construction and doesn't quite consider itself bound by contractual promises made by other branches of government. Behold the tarapur debacle.

That said, there has to be some quid pro quo for the heavy lifting the Bush admin did on Dilli's behalf in the NSG. It certainly won't be in the field of N-reactors or fuel, IMHO. But there again, Sri Obama is all set to dilute and drain away gains the Bush admin made as regards traction with Dilli.

Anyways, this is all OT for this thread perhaps in that it doesn't directly impinge on the MRCA's technicalities, or does it?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 16 Jun 2009 01:06

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:knowing rd33 engine production in india,infrastructure alredy exixt for mig29/29k
trained personnel.

one must not forget weapons also cost in billions and we don't need to buy weapons for mig35 as weapons to be used on su30mki same weapons can also be used on mig35 as well


So your argument is that even if you don't get any tech transfer, the MiG-35 is the superior choice because it's cheaper?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 01:06

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:so its not good idea to give americans more than this like MRCA otherwise it will be more like putting all eggs in one basket that is american basket


Hardly, even if an American product wins the MRCA, there's still:

LCA, Su-30MKI, FGFA, MCA, MiG-29, Mirage-2000, Jaguar, and that's not even counting the older MiGs.

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:moreover there is high altitude and combat helicopter tender as well even if this goes to americans along with MRCA it will be real farce


Why? Because American products will now make up 7% of the Indian military instead of 3%?

The US could win every single competition in India for the next 10 years (which of course isn't going to happen anyways) and still not make a large proportion of Indian forces.


americans win only by political pressure and this been proven in skorea,japan,singapore,israel,australia,netherlands :)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 01:09

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:knowing rd33 engine production in india,infrastructure alredy exixt for mig29/29k
trained personnel.

one must not forget weapons also cost in billions and we don't need to buy weapons for mig35 as weapons to be used on su30mki same weapons can also be used on mig35 as well


So your argument is that even if you don't get any tech transfer, the MiG-35 is the superior choice because it's cheaper?


my argument is that even if you don't get any tech transfer, the MiG-35 is the superior choice because it's cheaper? when did i tell this ,first read RFP and clearly states TOT

so mig35 won't come without TOT

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby b_patel » 16 Jun 2009 01:22

We already have a far superior air dominance fighter in the SU-30MKI and with AESA,TVC coming along with more powerful engines,it will simply outclass the F-18SH which dates back three decades.The IAF need a erey agile fighter that can win in close combat,face off intruders with AESA and BVR missiles and which can be a good "bomb truck".I doubt that it will be used a lot in ground attack and support of land forces.We have upgraded MIG-27s and Jaguars for that role.


What Aesa would you put on the MKI? There only two options in can think of, Elta's 2052 or an Aesa version of the current Bars. Compared to the SH the Su-30MKI has the RCS of the Titanic!! The Su-30MKI could be used for close combat but there is no way it is as capable as the Super Hornet in BVR. Do you really believe that the upgraded Jaguars and Mig-27 can compete with the SH in the A2G role? Personally if I were a pilot I would rather be in the SH then an upgraded Mig-27 if I were sent on a SEAD mission.

This is all hypothetical but if India chose the Super Hornet would they upgrade their Hornets to the 4.75 gen variation that the US is proposing Increased forward stealth, extra range. The rest of the article is a little ridiculous 6th gen? When i see a prototype then I will believe it. Maybe it will be a Super Hornet variant of the X-36?

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/6THG013008.xml&headline=Boeing%20Plans%20Sixth%20Generation%20Fighter%20With%20Block%203%20Super%20Hornet


So your argument is that even if you don't get any tech transfer, the MiG-35 is the superior choice because it's cheaper?

George, most people on this board are pro-russian and it unfortunately prevents them from seeing that the Mig-35 is the weakest competitor in every role in this entire competition. Some poster always argue that the infrastructure for the Migs exists so it would be cheaper and easier than buying something like the Gripen or the Super Hornet and that russia would provide full TOT. What does the Mig-35 offer that the SU30MKI doesn't? I could use the same argument and say that India might as well have bought upgraded Mig-21's instead b/c there is a lot of infrastructure set up for them and it is so much cheaper even though it is not as capable as its competitors. Besides the Mig-35 isn't even operational and most of the other planes have actual combat experience (except the Gripen and the F-16IN) in Afghanistan.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 16 Jun 2009 01:29

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:So your argument is that even if you don't get any tech transfer, the MiG-35 is the superior choice because it's cheaper?


my argument is that even if you don't get any tech transfer, the MiG-35 is the superior choice because it's cheaper? when did i tell this


Right here.

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:knowing rd33 engine production in india,infrastructure alredy exixt for mig29/29k
trained personnel.

one must not forget weapons also cost in billions and we don't need to buy weapons for mig35 as weapons to be used on su30mki same weapons can also be used on mig35 as well


You're arguing for the MiG-35 because you already have the rd33 production infrastructure and the su30mki weapons, thus making the package cheaper.

The downside of course is that you ALREADY HAVE the engine and weapons, so there is no opportunity for tech transfer.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 01:38

b_patel wrote:
We already have a far superior air dominance fighter in the SU-30MKI and with AESA,TVC coming along with more powerful engines,it will simply outclass the F-18SH which dates back three decades.The IAF need a erey agile fighter that can win in close combat,face off intruders with AESA and BVR missiles and which can be a good "bomb truck".I doubt that it will be used a lot in ground attack and support of land forces.We have upgraded MIG-27s and Jaguars for that role.


What Aesa would you put on the MKI? There only two options in can think of, Elta's 2052 or an Aesa version of the current Bars. Compared to the SH the Su-30MKI has the RCS of the Titanic!! The Su-30MKI could be used for close combat but there is no way it is as capable as the Super Hornet in BVR. Do you really believe that the upgraded Jaguars and Mig-27 can compete with the SH in the A2G role? Personally if I were a pilot I would rather be in the SH then an upgraded Mig-27 if I were sent on a SEAD mission.

This is all hypothetical but if India chose the Super Hornet would they upgrade their Hornets to the 4.75 gen variation that the US is proposing Increased forward stealth, extra range. The rest of the article is a little ridiculous 6th gen? When i see a prototype then I will believe it. Maybe it will be a Super Hornet variant of the X-36?

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/6THG013008.xml&headline=Boeing%20Plans%20Sixth%20Generation%20Fighter%20With%20Block%203%20Super%20Hornet


So your argument is that even if you don't get any tech transfer, the MiG-35 is the superior choice because it's cheaper?

George, most people on this board are pro-russian and it unfortunately prevents them from seeing that the Mig-35 is the weakest competitor in every role in this entire competition. Some poster always argue that the infrastructure for the Migs exists so it would be cheaper and easier than buying something like the Gripen or the Super Hornet and that russia would provide full TOT. What does the Mig-35 offer that the SU30MKI doesn't? I could use the same argument and say that India might as well have bought upgraded Mig-21's instead b/c there is a lot of infrastructure set up for them and it is so much cheaper even though it is not as capable as its competitors. Besides the Mig-35 isn't even operational and most of the other planes have actual combat experience (except the Gripen and the F-16IN) in Afghanistan.


su30mki getting irbis e radar and talking of aesa for su30 is distant dream

frontal RCS reduction desn't matter and in many vs many scenerio RCS from sides of aircraft and weapon becomes much prominent,

RCS from sides of aircraft is more compared to frontal RCS

and in BVR the despite su30 is at disadvantage because of its larger RCS but can f18e hide itself from IRBIS E and this radar sees f18e armed with amraams from 200km

and mig35 may be weakest but and what f18e can do and mig35 can't

and when india bought su30mki it wasn't even battle proven or operational and also russian airfroce did not induct it but it doens't mean an aircraft becomes inferior if parent country doesn't use that aircraft

and combat experience in afghanistan but think again whom ,poor afghans???

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby rajsunder » 16 Jun 2009 01:46

GeorgeWelch wrote:
rajsunder wrote: just because of O I L

even with all that bad stuff going on, Venezuela does not stop the supply of OIL.


What is Venezuela going to do? threaten to stop selling oil on the world market? :rotfl:

The fall in oil prices has already crippled the Venezuelan economy. They simply HAVE to keep pumping.

Venezuela did not threaten the supply even when the demand was high. Anyways there is always China or for that matter even INDIA, which would be more than happy to lap up oil supplies from Venezuela if Venezuela decides so.
So its more of a unsaid agreement between Venezuela and USA that I would not stop ur supply annd u would not stop mine :mrgreen:

And in regards to ur comment that in the bigger picture of things for USA, this project would not matter as it is spending Trillions to bail out US economy.
let me point it out by saying that this contract would not stop at 126 planes, MIG-21 has been the work horse of IAF, more than 20 of its squadrons have been populated by MIG-21's and IAF is in the plans to increase its Squadron strength from the approved 39-40 to 45. Which would increase the MRCA contract to at least 200-250 or may be more by 2020.
Now add mid life upgrades, sales of missiles and all other support equipment, you should be arriving at a figure of atleast 30-40B by 2020-2025 on just MRCA.
Last edited by rajsunder on 16 Jun 2009 01:56, edited 1 time in total.

Andrew DeCristofaro
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 01:51

rajsunder you are right

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 16 Jun 2009 01:53

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:americans win only by political pressure and this been proven in skorea,japan,singapore,israel,australia,netherlands :)


Sure, American products are never the best match for any country in the world and could never compete on their own merits.

As far as political pressure:
skorea: maybe
japan: No, they're begging the US to sell the F-22 and the US keeps saying no
singapore: No, the EF and Rafale simply weren't ready at that time.
israel: Well it's not so much political pressure as it is gifting . . .
Australia: No
Netherlands: Quite the opposite, they have intense pressure to stay with a 'European' solution.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 02:04

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:americans win only by political pressure and this been proven in skorea,japan,singapore,israel,australia,netherlands :)


Sure, American products are never the best match for any country in the world and could never compete on their own merits.

As far as political pressure:
skorea: maybe
japan: No, they're begging the US to sell the F-22 and the US keeps saying no
singapore: No, the EF and Rafale simply weren't ready at that time.
israel: Well it's not so much political pressure as it is gifting . . .
Australia: No
Netherlands: Quite the opposite, they have intense pressure to stay with a 'European' solution.


tell me again when did i say this---" American products are never the best match for any country in the world"

when 2 products are of same quality then americans use their political pressure to sell their stuff and japan is no exception.

this is proven in f16 bought buy morocco and in last those f16 cost them as much as rafale would cost

israel thrown out of aewacs competition in skorea and choosed american wedgetail and get this israeli stuff is not inferior either.

rafale lost to f15 in s.korea and singapore ,first f15 handed over to singapore last month and if singapore had bought rafale fully configured rafale had been given to by now which is no way inferior to f15
Last edited by Andrew DeCristofaro on 16 Jun 2009 02:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby b_patel » 16 Jun 2009 02:07

su30mki getting irbis e radar and talking of aesa for su30 is distant dream

You do realize that while the Su30 MKI and the Su35 BM share many similarities the MKI lacks the power to use the Irbis E to its full potential right? Currently only the Su35 BM is capable of using it to its full potential.
and in BVR the despite su30 is at disadvantage because of its larger RCS but can f18e hide itself from IRBIS E and this radar sees f18e armed with amraams from 200km

That is not possible. While the Irbis E is a very impressive radar there is no way it is capable of detecting the Super Hornet whose RCS is .1m2 at 200KM away. The Super Hornet would detect the MKI faster due to its massive RCS.
and mig35 may be weakest but and what f18e can do and mig35 can't

The F-18 has a much lower RCS than the Mig-35, it is more capable in the A2A role definitely destroys the Mig-35 in the A2G role, there is a dedicated EW version of the aircraft. It can carry a wider array of weapons. It has a clear upgrade path (Block III SH), Ther is more room for improvement. Has better EW suite than the Mig-35, has a fully mature AESA radar, should I go on?

and when india bought su30mki it wasn't even battle proven or operational and also russian airfroce did not induct it but it doens't mean an aircraft becomes inferior if parent country doesn't use that aircraft
and combat experience in afghanistan but think again whom ,poor afghans???

Which all the third-party avionics, EW systems, targeting pods, I doubt the Russians would have been able to induct the MKI. Imagine that France and Israel selling Avionics and targeting pods to Russia!!! HAHA That would be embarrassing to the Ruskies!! IF the Russians refuse to Induct the Mig-35 a plane they created that is a problem!! They obviously don't think its as capable as the Su35BM which they are inducting.
Where else would aircraft get combat experience besides Afghanistan. Where else is there a war going on?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby sam_kamath » 16 Jun 2009 02:19

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:americans win only by political pressure and this been proven in skorea,japan,singapore,israel,australia,netherlands :)


Sure, American products are never the best match for any country in the world and could never compete on their own merits.



George,
the american stuff is not bad.. but not the best stuff either ...the issue is when one buys american stuff it is too prone for sanctions.. the french might say we will charge you a lot but when it counts we will not tell you not to use it.. you have brought it use it as and when you please...
dont tell me you have to negotiate for that .. give me an example where the US does not do checks for third party sales.. what scares us most is unreliability...you sign one contract, the US will invariably say but we want to review it again...happed with us 3 times...
ne ways even technically i dont think apart from AESA (the TOT of which is questionable) the US has to offer something which is not offered by the french or the europeans.. and in a scenerio where there is a huge Phalcon lumbering around.. I dont think one quite needs to rely too much on the internal radar.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby sam_kamath » 16 Jun 2009 02:22

b_patel wrote:
su30mki getting irbis e radar and talking of aesa for su30 is distant dream

You do realize that while the Su30 MKI and the Su35 BM share many similarities the MKI lacks the power to use the Irbis E to its full potential right? Currently only the Su35 BM is capable of using it to its full potential.


Sir can you kindly elaborate on this statement.. I am kinda new here so if you could please tell me why you think so it could be of grate help..
Thanks
Sam

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 02:23

b_patel wrote:
su30mki getting irbis e radar and talking of aesa for su30 is distant dream

You do realize that while the Su30 MKI and the Su35 BM share many similarities the MKI lacks the power to use the Irbis E to its full potential right? Currently only the Su35 BM is capable of using it to its full potential.
and in BVR the despite su30 is at disadvantage because of its larger RCS but can f18e hide itself from IRBIS E and this radar sees f18e armed with amraams from 200km

That is not possible. While the Irbis E is a very impressive radar there is no way it is capable of detecting the Super Hornet whose RCS is .1m2 at 200KM away. The Super Hornet would detect the MKI faster due to its massive RCS.
and mig35 may be weakest but and what f18e can do and mig35 can't

The F-18 has a much lower RCS than the Mig-35, it is more capable in the A2A role definitely destroys the Mig-35 in the A2G role, there is a dedicated EW version of the aircraft. It can carry a wider array of weapons. It has a clear upgrade path (Block III SH), Ther is more room for improvement. Has better EW suite than the Mig-35, has a fully mature AESA radar, should I go on?

and when india bought su30mki it wasn't even battle proven or operational and also russian airfroce did not induct it but it doens't mean an aircraft becomes inferior if parent country doesn't use that aircraft
and combat experience in afghanistan but think again whom ,poor afghans???

Which all the third-party avionics, EW systems, targeting pods, I doubt the Russians would have been able to induct the MKI. Imagine that France and Israel selling Avionics and targeting pods to Russia!!! HAHA That would be embarrassing to the Ruskies!! IF the Russians refuse to Induct the Mig-35 a plane they created that is a problem!! They obviously don't think its as capable as the Su35BM which they are inducting.
Where else would aircraft get combat experience besides Afghanistan. Where else is there a war going on?


f18e RCS may be 0.1 meter sq but again this is frontal RCS
and RCS from sides is more than this

what if f18e gets 6 amraams which itself increase the RCS of aircraft by 10 folds and its frontal RCS becomes 1 meter sq and same RCS irbis e detects over 200km

and for EW varient of f18e one can also mount 6-8 elta8222 jammers on su30mki
or 4 on mig35 +2*kh31+2*r73

and for f18e carrying wide range of air to ground array then the mig35 can also be equipped with those kh31,59,35 stand off PGM, kab500/1500 or for that matter israeli PGMs

and yes 6 ton paylaod is more than enough to carry various configurations of these PGMs
6* 500kg PGM +2 WVR or fuel tank is general configuration for strike and mig35 is fully capable of carrying this

and for fully configured apg79 one must know that IAF not going to induct any MRCA before 2014 and by then all other contenders will have fully configured aesa radars

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Venkarl » 16 Jun 2009 02:25

ravi_ku wrote:
Venkarl wrote:George,

I appreciate your expertise in pitching super bugs for the MRCA deal. You poured in most of the info you had which didn't convince many on BRF including me. Leaving the technical details to experts as I am not, the main concern for every one here is "trust", "assurance", "sanction-proof" etc..when it comes to buying US military equipment as we do not want India be bound by words of Dubya during national security situation.

I agree that we bought USS Trenton, P8I, worked out a nuke deal and moreover a military pact is in shaping between US and India after recent elections. These recent developments also hints that Super Bug is already a favorite. I don't know what Plan B the Indian political and military establishment has if US gives a sand hand during any future conflicts in the Indian subcontinent.

Having all that said.....convincing/not-convincing us BRFites will not move a brick neither in Parliament nor AFHQ in decision making. BRF has seen many discussions, debates, arguments on this MRCA deal like a never ending LOST series. So, chillaaax......you sound professional sales guy..might earn some commission if you deal with folks in N.Delhi (kidding.. :lol: )

Thanks,
Venkat

No, Venkat. What this barrage of professional marketers of MRCA all descending at approximately the same time when the "real" trials for MRCA are going to start is that, BRf is a big mover and shaker. We are like hanuman who dont know his real power.

Right now in defence the biggest and the one stop to go place for Indian defence knowledge is BRf and this barrage proves the same. congrats to BR and their admins


Thank you for your response Ravi. I never doubted the enormous knowledge our BRF has. Infact, I am a big fan of JCage, Vishwakarma, Shiv, Jagan etc for their huge efforts and contributions. I read their posts of my interest again and again. Everything is well documented and is actually a library...nothing more than that...its not IDSA..not CASSINDIA...or SFG. Well, my point was something else that your thoughts have skipped it. Now, I wish to do a favour for this thread and myself by not deviating the topic.

Btw..Goodluck George :)

Thanks,
Venkat


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