MRCA News and Discussion

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby b_patel » 16 Jun 2009 02:51

f18e RCS may be 0.1 meter sq but again this is frontal RCS
and RCS from sides is more than this

what if f18e gets 6 amraams which itself increase the RCS of aircraft by 10 folds and its frontal RCS becomes 1 meter sq and same RCS irbis e detects over 200km

and for EW varient of f18e one can also mount 6-8 elta8222 jammers on su30mki
or 4 on mig35 +2*kh31+2*r73

and for f18e carrying wide range of air to ground array then the mig35 can also be equipped with those kh31,59,35 stand off PGM, kab500/1500 or for that matter israeli PGMs

and yes 6 ton paylaod is more than enough to carry various configurations of these PGMs
6* 500kg PGM +2 WVR or fuel tank is general configuration for strike and mig35 is fully capable of carrying this

and for fully configured apg79 one must know that IAF not going to induct any MRCA before 2014 and by then all other contenders will have fully configured aesa radars


A fully loaded Mig-35 would have an even higher RCS than the F-18 from the side as well. With the increased RCS the APG-79 would still detect the Mig-35 before its detected. Also the Mig-35 isn't equipped with the IRBIS E its using the ZHUK-AE which is less powerful than the IRBIS E. While the Mig-35 does have a decent amount of A2G weapons when is the last time they were used? US A2G weapons have been used extensively in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not saying there better they are just battle proven and effective. The SH can carry twice the weight in A2G configuration. That's a huge advantage, you would have to send two Migs to do the job of one SH.
In 2014 the Apg-79 will have been operational for almost 9 years compared to the 3-4 for the rafales AESA the Mig's AESA isn't even in production, and would only start production with the India order so there is no way you can claim it to be fully operational. At the end of the day the SH is a much better package for India than the Mig-35. But Personally I still believe that the Typhoon is the best possible choice India could make once the A2G integration has been completed. It will surprise people when the A2G weapons trials begin.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 16 Jun 2009 02:52

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:frontal RCS reduction desn't matter


:mrgreen:

I can't believe you actually said that . . .

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:and mig35 may be weakest but and what f18e can do and mig35 can't


It can be fully functional immediately.
It can take off from a STOBAR carrier.
Bigger capacity means more weapons, more upgrade potential and better buddy tanker.
Potential to be converted to a Growler.
It can give you access to a wide variety of US weapons and technology.
A real support infrastructure.

But more important than the immediate capabilities at the moment is the full life-cycle costs and what the future holds for each plane.

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:and when india bought su30mki it wasn't even battle proven or operational and also russian airfroce did not induct it but it doens't mean an aircraft becomes inferior if parent country doesn't use that aircraft


It's not about inferior or superior, it's about life-cycle costs. The purchase price of an aircraft is just a small part of its total life-cycle cost. Sure any frame can be upgraded and modernized if you have enough money. But integrating new features is costly, time-consuming and a tremendous pain.

Having someone else willing to pay to keep an aircraft at the cutting edge is a tremendous benefit.

Also if you are alone, your pilots die finding all the fatigue and safety issues. And then its on you to diagnose the problem and create a fix, possibly while your entire fleet is grounded.

A fatigue flaw was found in the SH 12 years after it was created. It will have to be corrected in earlier frames at tremendous cost. New built frames already have that fix included. By letting someone else frontrun, you avoid all these problems.

Obviously India can and has handled such issues in the past, but such experiences show the value of letting someone else do the heavy-lifting on them.

Also since the USN is such a large user of SHs, they are committed to keeping lifecycle costs low. Thus they fund efforts like the enhanced durability engine to increase FOD resistance and decrease fuel consumption. For a smaller operator, such expensive programs rarely pay off. But since the IAF could piggyback, they will be able to take advantage of such features for minimal cost.

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:and combat experience in afghanistan but think again whom ,poor afghans???


True there hasn't been much A2A, but there has been lots and lots of A2G and surveillance.

A2G is a rather important functionality but the Rafale still isn't fully capable and the EF capabilities are questionable.

Also just the simple act of deploying in a hostile environment is quite a test. I mentioned the stat about how Osprey engines went from 1300 hours on-wing at home to only 380 hours in Iraq. The SH has proven to be reliable and affordable to maintain in even the harshest conditions.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 16 Jun 2009 02:56

sam_kamath wrote:the french might say we will charge you a lot but when it counts we will not tell you not to use it..


Just because you haven't fallen victim to French sanctions yet doesn't mean you won't.

- Sanctions on Israel, including seizing boats they had already paid for
- Sanctions on China
- Gave the codes to the Exocet missiles they sold to Argentina to Britain while Argentina was at war! If you were Argentinian, what would you think of that sort of back-stabbing?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 03:01

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:frontal RCS reduction desn't matter


:mrgreen:

I can't believe you actually said that . . .

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:and mig35 may be weakest but and what f18e can do and mig35 can't


It can be fully functional immediately.
It can take off from a STOBAR carrier.
Bigger capacity means more weapons, more upgrade potential and better buddy tanker.
Potential to be converted to a Growler.
It can give you access to a wide variety of US weapons and technology.
A real support infrastructure.

But more important than the immediate capabilities at the moment is the full life-cycle costs and what the future holds for each plane.

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:and when india bought su30mki it wasn't even battle proven or operational and also russian airfroce did not induct it but it doens't mean an aircraft becomes inferior if parent country doesn't use that aircraft


It's not about inferior or superior, it's about life-cycle costs. The purchase price of an aircraft is just a small part of its total life-cycle cost. Sure any frame can be upgraded and modernized if you have enough money. But integrating new features is costly, time-consuming and a tremendous pain.

Having someone else willing to pay to keep an aircraft at the cutting edge is a tremendous benefit.

Also if you are alone, your pilots die finding all the fatigue and safety issues. And then its on you to diagnose the problem and create a fix, possibly while your entire fleet is grounded.

A fatigue flaw was found in the SH 12 years after it was created. It will have to be corrected in earlier frames at tremendous cost. New built frames already have that fix included. By letting someone else frontrun, you avoid all these problems.

Obviously India can and has handled such issues in the past, but such experiences show the value of letting someone else do the heavy-lifting on them.

Also since the USN is such a large user of SHs, they are committed to keeping lifecycle costs low. Thus they fund efforts like the enhanced durability engine to increase FOD resistance and decrease fuel consumption. For a smaller operator, such expensive programs rarely pay off. But since the IAF could piggyback, they will be able to take advantage of such features for minimal cost.

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:and combat experience in afghanistan but think again whom ,poor afghans???


True there hasn't been much A2A, but there has been lots and lots of A2G and surveillance.

A2G is a rather important functionality but the Rafale still isn't fully capable and the EF capabilities are questionable.

Also just the simple act of deploying in a hostile environment is quite a test. I mentioned the stat about how Osprey engines went from 1300 hours on-wing at home to only 380 hours in Iraq. The SH has proven to be reliable and affordable to maintain in even the harshest conditions.

rafale isn't fully capable and same for typhoon

then what is definition of being fully capable,

both rafale/typhoon or for that matter any other contender can do air to air engagement ,precision strike or stand off strike,buddy tanker,EW role.

SH is to be good in all but US govt isn't

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby b_patel » 16 Jun 2009 03:08

Also just the simple act of deploying in a hostile environment is quite a test. I mentioned the stat about how Osprey engines went from 1300 hours on-wing at home to only 380 hours in Iraq. The SH has proven to be reliable and affordable to maintain in even the harshest conditions.

Hey George, how well do you think the SH would be able to operate in India's various climates. Obviously the Deserts of India aren't a problem as the SH has been deployed in Iraq. But what about the Hot and Humid areas? I know it decreases Engine performance but didn't Boeing offer an improved version of their SH engine with 20% more engine thrust? Also have the SH ever been deployed in very cold environment b/c Im sure they would be deployed near Kashmir.
Out of all of the competitors the Gripen should have the least amount of problems as it already operates in India's 3 major climates. Tropical regions (Thailand), Hot arid regions (South Africa), Cold/ Tundra areas (Sweden) I assume Sweden is like that in the winter at least.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 16 Jun 2009 03:15

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:rafale isn't fully capable and same for typhoon

then what is definition of being fully capable,


Being able to lase your own target for one.

That's finally being added into Rafale in 2010, but it took them 15 years to add this basic capability.

As far as the EF, I merely said the capabilities are questionable. They've only recently been added and I'm not sure of the specs and they have never been demonstrated operationally.

Plus the EF only has 1 seat versions available operationally (the 2-seat versions are only trainers) and 2-seat is preferred for CAS operations.

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:both rafale/typhoon or for that matter any other contender can do air to air engagement ,precision strike or stand off strike,buddy tanker,EW role.


EF doesn't have buddy tanker capability.
Last edited by GeorgeWelch on 16 Jun 2009 03:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 16 Jun 2009 03:19

b_patel wrote:But what about the Hot and Humid areas?


Hot and humid defines carrier operations, the SH's natural habitat.

b_patel wrote:I know it decreases Engine performance but didn't Boeing offer an improved version of their SH engine with 20% more engine thrust?


Well not Boeing, but GE. Yes, they are investigating the EPE (enhanced performance engine)

b_patel wrote:Also have the SH ever been deployed in very cold environment


It gets quite cold in Afghanistan, plus they have training exercises in Alaska.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby b_patel » 16 Jun 2009 03:32

Being able to lase your own target for one.
That's finally being added into Rafale in 2010, but it took them 15 years to add this basic capability.

That's not really true though. Thales has already sold France the Damocles targeting pod. It just hasn't been introduced to all of the Rafales. The Rafale achieved F3 standard last year. They haven't had time to integrate all of the pod yet. Plus There is no need to Integrate it quickly as the Mirage 2000 can light up the targets for them.

As far as the EF, I merely said the capabilities are questionable. They've only recently been added and I'm not sure of the specs and they have never been demonstrated operationally.

I wouldn't say that the EF has questionable capabilities. The A2G capabilities weren't a priority for the Eu back then, after they lost the competition in Singapore due to the A2G deficiencies they sped up integration. Once the Tranche 3 role out it will be more than capable in the A2G role.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 16 Jun 2009 03:46

b_patel wrote: The Rafale achieved F3 standard last year . . . There is no need to Integrate it quickly


Even taking your most optimistic date (last year), that still means it took them 13 years. There's 'not quickly' and then there's 'unacceptably long'.

b_patel wrote:Plus There is no need to Integrate it quickly as the Mirage 2000 can light up the targets for them.


By that logic there's no need for them to carry bombs either since the Mirage 2000 can drop the bombs for them :wink:

b_patel wrote:I wouldn't say that the EF has questionable capabilities. The A2G capabilities weren't a priority for the Eu back then, after they lost the competition in Singapore due to the A2G deficiencies they sped up integration.


Saying something isn't a priority doesn't make me more comfortable. In fact it makes me want to . . . question them . . . thoroughly . . .

b_patel wrote:Once the Tranche 3 role out it will be more than capable in the A2G role.


T3 isn't even guaranteed yet (although realistically it will happen).

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby sam_kamath » 16 Jun 2009 03:47

GeorgeWelch wrote:
sam_kamath wrote:the french might say we will charge you a lot but when it counts we will not tell you not to use it..


Just because you haven't fallen victim to French sanctions yet doesn't mean you won't.

- Sanctions on Israel, including seizing boats they had already paid for
- Sanctions on China
- Gave the codes to the Exocet missiles they sold to Argentina to Britain while Argentina was at war! If you were Argentinian, what would you think of that sort of back-stabbing?


Exactly the point... once bitten twice shy...
yes the west has not been quite straightforward always... but thats not the point.. the point is how has that countrt behaved with us (India)
France has never put sanctions on us whereas the US has, plus we know what the US had to say when we tested in 1998 and what the french had to say then, we also are aware who gives our friends on our west a few billion dollars and who charges them an arm and a leg.
But the bigger point is the French at least and to a certain percent the Europeans are open about what they will and will not give, the US is not. The US says haggle, if you do a good job of it you win, if you dont well you dont.

As i said If I have the money, why should I buy something where I have to haggle a lot and where there is every bit of a chance that i might miss something when the other guy is telling me up front what the complete package is.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 16 Jun 2009 04:03

The biggest issue is that of faith with the US, and the US has proven earlier that it is an unreliable partner. If India conducts one more nuclear test due to its security concerns, chances are very high that we will face sanctions from US like we did in 1998.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 16 Jun 2009 04:24

RaviBg wrote:If India conducts one more nuclear test due to its security concerns, chances are very high that we will face sanctions from US like we did in 1998.


Actually I doubt it. That genie is already out of the bottle. Plus the US has much closer economic ties now that it doesn't want to jeopardize.

The US may express 'disappointment' or have the UN send the infamous 'strongly worded letter', but I really do not see full-blown sanctions.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 16 Jun 2009 04:45

http://www.defensenews.com/osd_story.ph ... &i=4139303

a senior Italian official has said the talks are too late and that Italy will stick with the mechanically scanned version for the first of its tranche-three aircraft.

. . .

Eurofighter industrial partners have now started work on an e-scan radar for the Eurofighter, but work has been slowed by a lack of funding, they say.


T3a doesn't arrive till 2013 and apparently the AESA will still not be ready by then.

This lack of funding for such a critical feature does not bode well for future updates of the EF.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 16 Jun 2009 04:48

GeorgeWelch wrote:
RaviBg wrote:If India conducts one more nuclear test due to its security concerns, chances are very high that we will face sanctions from US like we did in 1998.


Actually I doubt it. That genie is already out of the bottle. Plus the US has much closer economic ties now that it doesn't want to jeopardize.

The US may express 'disappointment' or have the UN send the infamous 'strongly worded letter', but I really do not see full-blown sanctions.


With the current crop of non-proliferation ayotollahs in the corridors of power ( look at the next US ambassador to India etc), non-proliferation is certainly high on the agenda. And you can always try making an example out of India rather than basket cases like N Korea. Add to it, the higher pressure on India to cede kashmir or make "magnanimous concessions" to Pakistan, and we can see where the administration is coming from.

While countries like France or Russia follow fairly similar policies across different governments, the same cannot be said of US ( and UK lately).

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Jun 2009 06:25

sam_kamath wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:
Just because you haven't fallen victim to French sanctions yet doesn't mean you won't.

- Sanctions on Israel, including seizing boats they had already paid for
- Sanctions on China
- Gave the codes to the Exocet missiles they sold to Argentina to Britain while Argentina was at war! If you were Argentinian, what would you think of that sort of back-stabbing?


Exactly the point... once bitten twice shy...
.........


Outside of Pakistan Indo-US interests are at the closest ever. There are other issues - climate, trade talks, etc - but none that are as prickly as Pakistan. And, when I say Pakistan - I do not mean terrorism - that is a topic by itself.

Besides that I am not sure why any Indian needs to be scared of events that happened when India was relatively weak as compared to today. Give India another 2-3 years and things should be far more in favor of India.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Jun 2009 06:29

With the current crop of non-proliferation ayotollahs in the corridors of power ( look at the next US ambassador to India etc), non-proliferation is certainly high on the agenda.


Tauscher did an about turn.

However, what you say is true. BUT, it is up to India to become a lot more confident and get a few more things done her (India's) way.

As India grows economically these things are going to become a lot more prominent. India needs to learn to deal with them without fear. IMHO, these old arguments need to be shelved.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 06:59

only way to trust US whether they agree for F125 engine with TOT for jaguars
and i am pretty sure even this will has to cross many hurdles.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Drevin » 16 Jun 2009 12:33

f125 isn't decided .... rolls-royce is pretty competent in providing a good engine for jag. Mods, Sorry for encouraging off-topic discussion. just couldn't resist. :P

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kailash » 16 Jun 2009 15:37

May be not totally related - but European radars are getting better

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 16 Jun 2009 15:42

GeorgeWelch wrote:http://www.defensenews.com/osd_story.php?sh=VSDP&i=4139303

a senior Italian official has said the talks are too late and that Italy will stick with the mechanically scanned version for the first of its tranche-three aircraft.

. . .

Eurofighter industrial partners have now started work on an e-scan radar for the Eurofighter, but work has been slowed by a lack of funding, they say.


T3a doesn't arrive till 2013 and apparently the AESA will still not be ready by then.

This lack of funding for such a critical feature does not bode well for future updates of the EF.


lack of funding is a problem that all nato governments face. they are all diverting funds from future programmes to pay for boots on the ground in eye-rack and fak-ap. the threat perception is changing, with limited funds aesa can easily take a back seat to mine protected vehicles

if putin rev's up the russians gain, aesa funding taps will open up quite easily

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kailash » 16 Jun 2009 15:51


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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Jun 2009 17:16

Kailash wrote:May be not totally related - but European radars are getting better


They will (we should expect them) to get better. More funding means "better" (actually even within India too). But, the same applies for the US. So, in the same time frame the US will also make that much advancement and I think will keep a lead over time.

There is another factor to be considered. The US developed these techs because she needs them in daily life. Neither Russia nor Europe (clumping a lot of countries there, sorry) really have no need. The UK (per FT), for instance, is actually considering wrapping up to some extent (they are discussing why they need nuclear subs for instance). It is not an accident that the non-US countries have not developed an AESA so far, or have maturing AESAs.

Finally, funds AND the pool of competitors is FAR bigger/greater in the US. Russia has the brains and a large pool of them, no funds, but a small political need ("if putin rev's up the russians gain, aesa funding taps will open up quite easily"). Thales has brain pool, no funds and no internal political need. Perhaps the same for EADS.

So, India needs to make a decision with these parameters in mind. Russia is equally good when it comes to technologies, BUT, is there a synchrony with a need, funds, etc between India and Russia. IF there is then things will be good, else it is bound to fail some place. Since at some point in time the priorities could become too different for Russia to bother about major Indian concerns - which is natural. Same goes for the US - the US Congress is a royal pain in the neck.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 16 Jun 2009 17:53

I would pay more attention the exciting news posted by Kailash.. actually, if not just for their price (and given their open invitation for us to partcipations and ownership), EADS has uped the ante for MRCA. This is serious folks, read these:-
According to Compans, this is a strategic capability for Europe, since the U.S. will not export this technology.

EADS can manufacture up to 100,000 T/R modules per annum–enough for 60 to 70 radars.

EADS is offering it for export. {i.e., GaN!!!}


In the past two years, EADS has been developing the first semiconductors using gallium nitrate (GaN), a material that delivers much greater bandwidth and power output than GaA. When used in T/R modules on an active radar array, it allows for multiple applications. A frequency range from 1 to 20 GHz is achievable, so that the radar can also be used for communications, IFF and ESM (for example, electronic intelligence). {AWESOME!!!}

The power output (100w per module) is up to 10 times greater than that available from GaA, so the radar can be used for electronic warfare. Compans believes Europe is not far behind the U.S. in GaN technology.
{this news link if truthful, proves F22 raptor is already on AlGaN.. and the earlier GaAs modules may be up for sale from unkill land, just for the heck of it!}



coming to think of EADS, they could supply us the GaN modules for LCAs as well, if our own efforts are going to take time.. ooops, did I feed some hungry mouth?

vote for EADS.. I know their price is the negative factor.. but we would only see after the evaluations are over and pitchers find any ways or means to come down on the price.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Omar » 16 Jun 2009 20:10

The biggest issue is that of faith with the US, and the US has proven earlier that it is an unreliable partner. If India conducts one more nuclear test due to its security concerns, chances are very high that we will face sanctions from US like we did in 1998.
The biggest issue is that of faith with the US, and the US has proven earlier that it is an unreliable partner. If India conducts one more nuclear test due to its security concerns, chances are very high that we will face sanctions from US like we did in 1998.


We don't even have to go back as far as 1998. Remember this? This happened with the current Obama administration! Granted this was not a sanction and resolved quickly, but suppose the export of Superbug spares was temporarily placed 'under review' for 3 months during a Kargil-type conflict. The effects would be just as devastating as imposing sanctions. The Russians are also beginning to engage in this sort of perfidy (ex. Gorashkov). In this regard only the Europeans have avoided these shennanigans wrt to India (so far).
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 20:16

Omar wrote:
The biggest issue is that of faith with the US, and the US has proven earlier that it is an unreliable partner. If India conducts one more nuclear test due to its security concerns, chances are very high that we will face sanctions from US like we did in 1998.
The biggest issue is that of faith with the US, and the US has proven earlier that it is an unreliable partner. If India conducts one more nuclear test due to its security concerns, chances are very high that we will face sanctions from US like we did in 1998.


We don't even have to go back as far as 1998. Remember this? This happened with the current Obama administration! Granted this was not a sanction and resolved quickly, but suppose the export of Superbug spares was temporarily placed 'under review' for 3 months during a Kargil-type conflict. The effects would be just as devastating as imposing sanctions. The US will just use different terminology for the same effect.

future is always uncertain

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 16 Jun 2009 20:20

I get the funny feeling that the French are in with a real chance here,as it is easiest to acquire western tech from a Euroepan manufacturer than the US,with congress as a millstone round one's neck.To keep the Russians happy,more MIG-29Ks brought upto MIG-35 specs will be ordered for current and future carriers,with MIG-29 upgrades of aircraft in service,while the emphasis is placed upon the 5th-gen fighter.

A hint of this was in the statements just made about the SU-30's induction at Tezpur,that 200 Su-30s wopuld be the final figure,while 126 MMRCa's plus the future 5th gen fighter would be the IAF's plan for the future.No mention of the LCA or the MCA in this.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby archan » 16 Jun 2009 20:22

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:future is always uncertain

Of course, so one should disregard the past, learn no lessons from it and do whatever one feels like....coz future is always uncertain.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Omar » 16 Jun 2009 20:23

future is always uncertain


True, but unlike the US the Europeans have hinted at some level of committment toward indigenous programs like LCA. Even if the Europeans temporarily place the export of Eurofighter spares to India during a conflict "under review," we have a highly capable indigenous system that can perform a similar role.

Same goes for the US - the US Congress is a royal pain in the neck.


It doesn't even have to be just the US Congress. Even the executive branch (State Dept, president) has been a pain in the neck.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 20:29

Omar wrote:
future is always uncertain


True, but unlike the US the Europeans have hinted at some level of committment toward indigenous programs like LCA. Even if the Europeans temporarily place the export of Eurofighter spares to India during a conflict "under review," we have a highly capable indigenous system that can perform a similar role.

only europeans especially EADS have hinted towards LCA that too for they want to sell typhoon.
and if india goes with snecma for kaveri and mount this engine on LCA,RAFALE ,then consider rafale is winner

moreover even if russia loses MRCA they still have pak fa,MRTA which will cost 20-25 billion from developemnt to induction of 200th pak fa and around 50 MRTAs

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Omar » 16 Jun 2009 20:35

only europeans especially EADS have hinted towards LCA that too for they want to sell typhoon.
and if india goes with snecma for kaveri and mount this engine on LCA,RAFALE ,then consider rafale is winner

moreover even if russia loses MRCA they still have pak fa,MRTA which will cost 20-25 billion from developemnt to induction of 200th pak fa and around 50 MRTAs


I don't understand what you are getting at. I'm saying that India gains more than just ToT and simple reassurances from Europe because they are investing themselves as strategic defense partners. Ultimately each country wants to sell their planes to the IAF, but the point is what else are we getting. Everyone is saying they will adhere to ToT agreement, will not impose sanction, etc. But who is going beyond that? Clearly the Americans aren't. In fact, Boeing declined to be design consultant when HAL was attempting to overcome, "persistent design glitches that dog the LCA, including fuel distribution, uneven braking, flight controls, environment controls and testing."

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 16 Jun 2009 20:36

To keep the Russians happy..

we have to ensure we make IAF and our strategy happier than the russkies. .. getting them to be happy is nice to have.. but not at the expense of GUBOing.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Jamal K. Malik » 16 Jun 2009 20:53

Buy any potent bird,but bird's neck should remain free from any foreign hands.Otherwise it is of no use and it will remain in hanger during any conflict.If forces(fighters)have no use in conflict, it will be much more disasterous then buy a little low specifiction in fighers.
Buy a MMRCA is different from buy G-17 or P-8I,as these are the force multilpler, but the MMRCA is a force to multiple.
I have full trust in my govt. and in our baboozee as they have much more information on the table regarding all contenders then the other parties.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 20:53

Omar wrote:
only europeans especially EADS have hinted towards LCA that too for they want to sell typhoon.
and if india goes with snecma for kaveri and mount this engine on LCA,RAFALE ,then consider rafale is winner

moreover even if russia loses MRCA they still have pak fa,MRTA which will cost 20-25 billion from developemnt to induction of 200th pak fa and around 50 MRTAs


I don't understand what you are getting at. I'm saying that India gains more than just ToT and simple reassurances from Europe because they are investing themselves as strategic defense partners. Ultimately each country wants to sell their planes to the IAF, but the point is what else are we getting. Everyone is saying they will adhere to ToT agreement, will not impose sanction, etc. But who is going beyond that? Clearly the Americans aren't. In fact, Boeing declined to be design consultant when HAL was attempting to overcome, "persistent design glitches that dog the LCA, including fuel distribution, uneven braking, flight controls, environment controls and testing."

no one will go beyond this

did su30,mig21,mig27 tech transfer helped india developing LCA faster,simple answer big no.

so these tech transfer help only for specific fighter,
japan had tech transfer for f15,f2 can they develop their own stealthy jet??? ans no
and they begging US for f22

and TOT for MRCA won't help much in developing MCA/LCA mk2 ,you all will know.
Last edited by Andrew DeCristofaro on 16 Jun 2009 20:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Jun 2009 20:54

Who is going to keep the Indians happy?

We spend more time keeping the Russians, French, British, AmeriKhans, etc happy.

On another note, why is it that India cannot produce those AESA parts? Via ToT or offset.

No matter which AC India buys, the idea is not just to fill IAF squadrons. India better have a viable engine (NOT just a kaveri), AESA (and something beyond I would hope), etc in 10-20 years. Else this stupidity of US Congress, Russians happy, scared of China, LeT + Pakistan, etc will continue like a bad dream.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Jun 2009 20:59

did su30,mig21,mig27 tech transfer helped india developing LCA faster,simple answer big no.


It was never meant to - if you read the history that is very clear.

Part of the problem is politics, that the LCA never got built in time - as the original team wanted to.

The current effort with ToT + Offsets (which I think is bigger than ToT) is what will get India over the proverbial hump. Hope so.

and TOT for MRCA won't help much in developing MCA/LCA mk2 ,you all will know.


But, LCA techs will help FGFA!!! And, is in MKI!!!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby AmitR » 16 Jun 2009 21:04

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:did su30,mig21,mig27 tech transfer helped india developing LCA faster,simple answer big no.

What ToT you are referring to?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 21:05

NRao wrote:Who is going to keep the Indians happy?

We spend more time keeping the Russians, French, British, AmeriKhans, etc happy.

On another note, why is it that India cannot produce those AESA parts? Via ToT or offset.

No matter which AC India buys, the idea is not just to fill IAF squadrons. India better have a viable engine (NOT just a kaveri), AESA (and something beyond I would hope), etc in 10-20 years. Else this stupidity of US Congress, Russians happy, scared of China, LeT + Pakistan, etc will continue like a bad dream.

no one wants to keep indians happy .and this is the bottom line

and these tech transfers don't help much to be self reliant

look at BEL which produces radars all these radars are of foreign tech transfer,
can they produce land based aesa using that tech which was transferred for radars which BEL built under license ,you will know the answer

these tech are either stolen or bought(highly unlikely)
and developing in house is too tedious and long.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 16 Jun 2009 21:10

AmitR wrote:
Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:did su30,mig21,mig27 tech transfer helped india developing LCA faster,simple answer big no.

What ToT you are referring to?

india produced mig21,mig27,su30 in home and if tech transfer was not there then then how could HAL built these jets

and without tech transfer how will india build MCA in home ??/

and same thing will happen with MRCA tech transfer and be sure this tech transfer not going to speed up LCA/LCA mk2/MCA

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Omar » 16 Jun 2009 21:10

TOT for MRCA won't help much in developing MCA/LCA mk2 ,you all will know


Right but when the German and Spanish governments have already permitted EADS to part with the technology needed for the Tejas programme that the US wouldn't or when EADS says it wants to partner with India in developing and marketing the Tejas, it definitely helps in developing MCA/LCA mk2. Even now, EADS and DRDO are jointly co-developing products that will definitely help LCA Mk2 if integrated. Examples are more plentiful when consider long history of successful Indian and Russian defense R&D collaboration. Americans haven't even tried in this regard and when they have, their government imposes sanctions.

You are right when you say simple ToT won't get the LCA very far. You are wrong when you think that ToT is all the GoI is looking for, it is just the required minimum.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 16 Jun 2009 21:17

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/jun/ ... -fleet.htm

Though not related to MRCA, but upgrading MCU of Jaguars shows GOI leaning towards to an US aircraft. With this future MRCA and Jaguars can fire US AAMs. Only small doubt, does Mirage M2K can fire AIM-9X and AMRAAM or it needs some modification.


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