MRCA News and Discussion

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NRao
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 17 Jun 2009 19:42

The reactions to his posts seem to bring about rather defensive posts on how we aren't all that bad!


Which is true. India is not ALL that bad.

Kaveri is not operational, but most of it is just fine. My understanding is that it has one or two MAJOR problems. French offer can solve it, granted that will nto advance Indian know-how.

But, and we have been through this umpteen times, given the funds available and politics, it is really not that bad.

but can they bring kaveri to operation


Is there another option? :-o

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Drevin » 17 Jun 2009 21:00

and considering a fighter superb for logistics managers and more importantly, pilot/technician training then nothing beats mig35 in this as IAF,IN already have mig29,29k and infrastructure


I think,

Mig35 subsystems----->meant for----->Indian Navy (29k will evolve using mig35 components)
Mig35----->not meant for----->Indian Airforce (because we dont want all eggs in russian basket)

all aircraft will have mature aesa in 2014

Don't forget, credit for this goes to the rfp from mrca contract. Its the motivating factor for all the vendors/suppliers.

jmt

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Ashutosh Malik » 18 Jun 2009 00:11

Hi Mr. Rao,

That is the whole point! :D. And that's why I made the comment on the defensiveness of the posts - we needn't be defensive!

Cheers

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 18 Jun 2009 01:15

Drevin wrote:
and considering a fighter superb for logistics managers and more importantly, pilot/technician training then nothing beats mig35 in this as IAF,IN already have mig29,29k and infrastructure


I think,

Mig35 subsystems----->meant for----->Indian Navy (29k will evolve using mig35 components)
Mig35----->not meant for----->Indian Airforce (because we dont want all eggs in russian basket)

all aircraft will have mature aesa in 2014

Don't forget, credit for this goes to the rfp from mrca contract. Its the motivating factor for all the vendors/suppliers.

jmt

if not all eggs going into russian basket then all eggs going into american basket nowdays

but bottom line is all eggs are still going into one basket whether this basket is russian or american

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 18 Jun 2009 01:56

NRao wrote:
The reactions to his posts seem to bring about rather defensive posts on how we aren't all that bad!


Which is true. India is not ALL that bad.

Kaveri is not operational, but most of it is just fine. My understanding is that it has one or two MAJOR problems. French offer can solve it, granted that will nto advance Indian know-how.

But, and we have been through this umpteen times, given the funds available and politics, it is really not that bad.

but can they bring kaveri to operation


Is there another option? :-o


so until GTRE come to know that whats wrong with their own design or where is the deficiency so that it can be solved to bring engine to operation,this is very important for upgrading and future development of engines for various purposes but no foreign company will help in this as its restricted by their govt.

france is not ready to solve the problems being faced on core/hot section design built by GTRE either and same for EADS

and this help increases the knowhow of GTRE in developing engines.

and keeping away GTRE from this knowhow these foreign companies bring their own design like france wants to bring ECO core for kaveri

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 18 Jun 2009 02:45

What?

NRao
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 18 Jun 2009 02:57

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:
k prasad wrote:


Thanks a ton for that Dorai.... just a clarification... are you referring to the MRCA page on wiki or the Rafale page??

...........................................................


although rafale's engines produce least power but rafale has got better thrust to weight ratio than f18 and f16

and less powerful engines means more saving in fuel costs


Your googlingness,

GE HAS addressed that issue WRT the F-18. Just go few pages back to see the URL for it.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 18 Jun 2009 05:46

and less powerful engines means more saving in fuel costs

not necessarily.. it depends on the turbine efficiency. what about meeting mtow requirements?

and.. what you all mean by "mature aesa"? maturity in what? multi-role/swing role/range/least power/high lpi/radar computing power/high gain - low noise t/r.. multi-functional/mission computing feeds & integration/weapons integration???......

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Omar » 18 Jun 2009 06:11

so until GTRE come to know that whats wrong with their own design or where is the deficiency so that it can be solved to bring engine to operation,this is very important for upgrading and future development of engines for various purposes but no foreign company will help in this as its restricted by their govt.

france is not ready to solve the problems being faced on core/hot section design built by GTRE


NRao just said that the French offer would solve the problems faced by the Kaveri engine. Can you provide a source for your statements such as, "no foreign company will help in this as its restricted by their govt"?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Drevin » 18 Jun 2009 06:42

if not all eggs going into russian basket then all eggs going into american basket nowdays

but bottom line is all eggs are still going into one basket whether this basket is russian or american


russian basket is already full :!: :!: case of spot amnesia it seems.

When did we buy the mirage .....30 years ago approximately ....
When did we buy the jag ..... another 30 years ago.
When did we buy MKI, 29K .... and who is partner for future fgfa .....

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 18 Jun 2009 07:20

http://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416085913&o=ext

page 30

The article is about RSK-MiG's plan to shut down the MAPO/Duks plant in Moscow and move them to a new National Aerospace Engineering Center in the City of Zhukovskiy.

Establishing a new state-of-the-art facility is expensive and some people question what impact it will have on the MiG-35.

The large sums that must be expended to initiate MiG-35 production will have a negative impact in terms of increasing the price tag of the fighter, which will see those expenditures amortized across its production runs, say the experts interviewed. "The MiG-35 is an attractive option for customers because of the level of quality that it offers at a reasonable price, but this may destroy that balance because of the inevitable price increase," one commented.

. . . an increase in the price would be unfortunate timing for MiG's relations with India.

India is both disgruntled with the Russians as suppliers about increases above the contracted cost for spares for the Sukhoi Su-30MKI in service with the IAF, and a series of cost overruns and delays on delivery of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier to the Indian Navy.


also, to clarify an earlier discussion in this thread, same link, page 42

We are expecting qualification of the Damocles pod at the end of the year
Last edited by GeorgeWelch on 18 Jun 2009 07:48, edited 2 times in total.

Austin
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 18 Jun 2009 07:37

The aircraft which help us integrate maximum Indian built components ( Avionics , MC,RWR,EW what ever possible ) from Tejas,Jags upgrade represents the best bet for us , in terms of Life Cycle Cost/Maintenance , Avionics built around common Open Standard Architecture in the IAF , progressive upgrade through out its life ,reducing import contents to the maximum possible and use of Indian built and designed systems.

That way we have less of black box per aircraft and it helps in reducing the cost.

From what I have read only Mig-35 allows us the maximum flexibility in terms of what goes inside and how much control we have.

IMO any aircraft we purchase henceforth be it MMRCA or FGFA should have maximum possible indian designed and built component and system in it and fleet wide standardization this will reduce the over all logistics overhead and bring some sanity in the circus that we maintain now

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 18 Jun 2009 08:23



Page 30: MiG-35
Page 32: MKI + Brahmos
Page 34: SH
Page 42: Rafale
Page 54: Glass cockpit out, helmet-mounted avionics in

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 18 Jun 2009 09:20

Rafale is still not optimistic about mmrca.
and I do not think we will be delivering active radars by 2012..Other countries will come first.


^^ Rafale just shot themselves in the foot! [luckily ddm didn't read this.. headlines would fly again about Rafale does not consider mmrca contract serious.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby m mittal » 18 Jun 2009 10:21

I know this has been discussed like bazillion times......but going for Russian products carries a risk of cost escalations and even more important delays and unnecessary arm twisting.

I do not get a good feeling about further association with Russia anymore.

MRTA project was proposed like a decade ago and still they are talking.......is it just me or someone else also thinks that a decade is a little too much time for laying out what needs to be build and laying a road map about funding etc. Even the FGFA, they are still talking and nothing concrete is out yet.

We can learn a lot from Russians in terms of technology but any technology when not acquired at the right time looses its significance.

Having said that Mig-35 is an excellent aircraft with the most superior manuverability among the contenders but my question is how important is manuverability in times of BVRAAMs. Are we still thinking of world war era dog fights????

Russians will give us technology and allow us to integrate the avionics which we want but see what happened with T-90; delay in TOT resulted in IA having to buy T-90s off the shelf.

With all this I think we are better off staying away from Russians.

Just my 2 cents.......

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby krishnan » 18 Jun 2009 10:24

Almost all countries now are going to screw us just like russians are doing. When they can do it, would other countries be far behind in this.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Viv Sreenivasan » 18 Jun 2009 13:46

All this Russian arm twisting with regards to Nuke Sub, price of Gorshkov etc are all related significantly to MRCA purchase imo. If MRCA deal goes to some western country get ready for the Russians to ask for another billion for the Gorshkov. Its pure blackmail.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby brat » 18 Jun 2009 16:09

pl delete if posted already

Rafale for upcomming trails?
Image

NRao
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 18 Jun 2009 16:16

krishnan wrote:Almost all countries now are going to screw us just like russians are doing. When they can do it, would other countries be far behind in this.


True.

Then get screwed and get the product on time under control. Which is why I would keep away from RU. Furthermore I am not yet convinced they have caught up technologically - or that they really can. My fear is that they will rely on India funding THEIR projects and thus squeeze India

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 18 Jun 2009 16:17

Rafale will not come with AESA.. and should that be in the rfp, know your answers... Again, expect another round of ddm headlines, and finally Rafale agreeing to provide AESA at later tranches/delivery at a boosted price.

still advantage EF2K/jmt.. I am waiting to hear from GTRE on their decision on K-II, and should that be EJ200, we have an emerging black horse to the surface.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby krishnan » 18 Jun 2009 16:19

Is there any product being funded by us? Except brahmos i cant remember any thing else.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 18 Jun 2009 16:20

what do you think LCA is?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 18 Jun 2009 16:43

PARIS AIR SHOW: Sukhoi secretive on PAK-FA programmes

But:

Though reticent on the specifics of the PAK-FA programme, Pogosyan is confident of success in the Indian fighter contest, in which the MiG-35 has been entered. The MiG aircraft has "a good chance of winning", he says. It has already completed flight tests with the Indian air force.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby chiru » 18 Jun 2009 16:55

NRao wrote:PARIS AIR SHOW: Sukhoi secretive on PAK-FA programmes

But:

Though reticent on the specifics of the PAK-FA programme, Pogosyan is confident of success in the Indian fighter contest, in which the MiG-35 has been entered. The MiG aircraft has "a good chance of winning", he says. It has already completed flight tests with the Indian air force.


i think they mean IAF personnel have gone for a test flight in the mig-35 ...there are a couple of videos on aviapedia.com about AI 2007 and a cobra squadron pilot was speaking in russian after a test flight ...the cobra patch on his chest was clearly visible ...he looked very impressed and his body language showed it clearly

http://www.aviapedia.com/page/7

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 18 Jun 2009 19:11

Viv Sreenivasan wrote:All this Russian arm twisting with regards to Nuke Sub, price of Gorshkov etc are all related significantly to MRCA purchase imo. If MRCA deal goes to some western country get ready for the Russians to ask for another billion for the Gorshkov. Its pure blackmail.

bring the proof that russkies going to ask another billion or in Mr N Rao's language show URL for this

price of gorshkov is still cheaper and its been already discussed but if you guys want to discuss more then i am ready

for nuke sub as if whenever india wants a nuke sub just order it russia.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby AmitR » 18 Jun 2009 20:33

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:bring the proof that russkies going to ask another billion or in Mr N Rao's language show URL for this

price of gorshkov is still cheaper and its been already discussed but if you guys want to discuss more then i am ready

for nuke sub as if whenever india wants a nuke sub just order it russia.


Since you seem to have such deep understanding of the Russis can you tell us what exactly the state of the Mig35 and PakFA right now. What is the level of advancement and development that you see in the avionics, electronics, bambootronics and stealthoshky that the Russis have achieved. No need of URL also mr Putin.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 18 Jun 2009 22:25

by gorshkov, if we are only spending.. then we might as well increase spending on 120MW nuker powered ADS. But, why are we talking about that in this thread?.. is it because the Mig29K->Mig35 has a direct bearing on the cost of MRCA given the strong russian feeling that the migs will win the contract?

the engines are still smokie, and nothing koraput had gained visible enought to input to furthering two types of russian engine mftring here in India. We have already established the AL31fp, perhaps that would further get augmented to AL4xxxx? for the FGFA. We can stop at the seawasp engine assembly level, and focus more on how we could finalize Kaveri with Ej200 help.

Furthermore, more inputs will come in terms of GaN AESA, increased EF2K learning and participation, MDBA weapons and systems, that can also role some of its parts and features into FGFA. Going by EADS fine print ddm/firang news that they have submitted a competitive bid on the challenging 50% offset, and still they say, they are really excited to work with us, and very serious about it.. and I think we will pay very serious attention to their offer. /JMT.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 18 Jun 2009 23:07

brat wrote:pl delete if posted already

Rafale for upcomming trails?
[Rafale's Image]

Lovely photo, If I were ACM ,I would definitely want to park one of these birds outside my residence or the hangar of my choice,even if any other AC is taken for mrca :)

why are they waiting ?, have field trial of Rafale first, if it satisfies, kick others without wasting time

Added later: Rafale will undergo field trials first :D

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 18 Jun 2009 23:09

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:
Viv Sreenivasan wrote:All this Russian arm twisting with regards to Nuke Sub, price of Gorshkov etc are all related significantly to MRCA purchase imo. If MRCA deal goes to some western country get ready for the Russians to ask for another billion for the Gorshkov. Its pure blackmail.

bring the proof that russkies going to ask another billion or in Mr N Rao's language show URL for this

price of gorshkov is still cheaper and its been already discussed but if you guys want to discuss more then i am ready

for nuke sub as if whenever india wants a nuke sub just order it russia.

DeCristofaro, stick to the topic,
if not then at least to the thread :P

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 19 Jun 2009 00:22

Rafale cockpit is mind boggling though..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Omar » 19 Jun 2009 02:04

Seems like Eurofighter generic sales pitch includes licensed manufacturing and integration of avionics from other sources. Here is what the BAe has proposed to the Japanese Ministry of Defense:

Although export of the F-22 would be strictly controlled to prevent its military technology from falling into the wrong hands, Latham said selling the Typhoon will take a "no black box approach. "The biggest difference between the two planes will be the "ability to offer Japan's industry a significant package of work," he said, explaining that the consortium could allow licensed manufacturing of the fighter in Japan and integration with Japanese equipment.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Katare » 19 Jun 2009 04:07

SaiK wrote:Rafale will not come with AESA.. and should that be in the rfp, know your answers... Again, expect another round of ddm headlines, and finally Rafale agreeing to provide AESA at later tranches/delivery at a boosted price.

still advantage EF2K/jmt.. I am waiting to hear from GTRE on their decision on K-II, and should that be EJ200, we have an emerging black horse to the surface.


You may have misunderstood what he said/meant. I think he said that Indian contract will take a long time and other countries would start getting RBE-2 radars before India. It's French English :lol: Kinda makes sense too! Even if India completes field trials for all 6 contenders and than completes price negotiations and signs the contract with the winner in next 12 months. Still the first aircraft would be delivered in mid 2013 as per IAF requirements. So Dassault would still be supplying AESA radars to other countries for more than a year before delivering it to India. In all probability it'll take at least another 3 years to sign the MRCA contract meaning first deliveries in 2015-16.


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