Indian Space Program Discussion

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sunilUpa
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Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 15 May 2009 03:44

^^^Arun saar,
Here is the presentation by A.Bhaskaranarayana, on which the article is based.

indian IRNSS and GAGAN

You are right about 'special' positioning service, it is 'Standard positioning system.

The accuracy (of standard system) is 20 m over Indian ocean region and 10 m over India and neighboring countries.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 15 May 2009 04:04

And the positional accuracy can be enhanced by GAGAN to at least 3m, even for civil aviation. I'd love to see our soldiers carry IRNSS kits made by Tata or L&T :D

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 15 May 2009 04:20

An interesting interview with one of the fathers of GPS, Bradford Parkinson (linked from Wikipedia):

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/it/2004/2/2004_2_58.shtml

Pretty amazing to see how much technology has evolved so that we take it for granted & how difficult it was in the initial stages.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 15 May 2009 05:10

sunilUpa wrote:^^^Arun saar,
Here is the presentation by A.Bhaskaranarayana, on which the article is based.

indian IRNSS and GAGAN

You are right about 'special' positioning service, it is 'Standard positioning system.

The accuracy (of standard system) is 20 m over Indian ocean region and 10 m over India and neighboring countries.


The earliest was a 5 page paper by AS Ganeshan, SC Rathanakara, R Gupta and Anup Jain titled "Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS) Concept" published in Journal of Spacecraft Technology, Vol.15, #2 pp 19-23 July 2005.

Then there was a 17 page Presentation at COSPAR & IAF Workshop, 44th Session of S&T, 13 Feb 2007, by D.Radhakrishnan, of ISRO titled "Use of Equatorial orbit for Indian Satellite Navigation Programme" that I think is easy read and very informative.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 15 May 2009 05:30

Wow! a launch next year? Desi scientific community never ceases to surprise (pleasantly) :-)

What does this mean?

- Thousands of cheap Tomahawk-kumars put an end to dreams of Chinese 'we'll teach them a lesson' aggression.
- JDAM-kumars put an end to Kargil like intrusions.
- Krasnopol-kumar shells mean, no more jungle bashing and loosing 10 jawans in one encounter.
- The technology will also have tremendous civilian applications.

On a different note, this system appears to be unkil blessed. It will play nicely with existing GPS because its on L5 and I believe some of the exotic hardware (cesium clocks) are being supplied by unkil. In future, going by logic and tremendous leaps that desi scientific community is moving in, this system will be complimented by pseudollites (similar hardware but on planes and UAVs so it cant be taken out with 1 and done anti Satellite measures).

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Anujan » 15 May 2009 05:42

Arun_S wrote:The earliest was a 5 page paper by AS Ganeshan, SC Rathanakara, R Gupta and Anup Jain titled "Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS) Concept" published in Journal of Spacecraft Technology, Vol.15, #2 pp 19-23 July 2005.

Then there was a 17 page Presentation at COSPAR & IAF Workshop, 44th Session of S&T, 13 Feb 2007, by D.Radhakrishnan, of ISRO titled "Use of Equatorial orbit for Indian Satellite Navigation Programme" that I think is easy read and very informative.


Arun_S-saar
ISRO is making a massive push for Ionosphere studies. A mission planned in 2010 called "Small Satellites for Earth's Near Space Environment" has been proposed to launch 2 satellites solely for ionosphere studies.

The experience from GAGAN should help with the UDRE as well.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby rachel » 15 May 2009 06:55

I wonder .. since 7 IRNSS birds will cover the subcontinet.. if more can be sequentially added to expand the territory. Ie if seven are up by 2012, and then we decide we need to add MidEast coverage plus a big chunk of China, if we throw up another 3-5 birds to expand...??

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Victor » 15 May 2009 07:15

rachel wrote:I wonder .. since 7 IRNSS birds will cover the subcontinet.. if more can be sequentially added to expand the territory. Ie if seven are up by 2012, and then we decide we need to add MidEast coverage plus a big chunk of China, if we throw up another 3-5 birds to expand...??

Going by the satellite locations map posted by Arun in the previous page, it looks to me like the planned constellation will cover not only the entire Indian Subcontinent, Indian Ocean Region, Middle East and South East Asia but also most of China and a good portion of Australia and Africa. If so, that would make the most sense given the expense and effort.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 15 May 2009 07:22

The earth's surface area with land mass & oceans is 510 million km^2.
India's land area is about 3.3 million km^2.
There are 51 GPS satellites that cover the entire earth. Therefore, 7 for the desired region coverage is plenty.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 15 May 2009 09:07

Victor wrote:
rachel wrote:I wonder .. since 7 IRNSS birds will cover the subcontinet.. if more can be sequentially added to expand the territory. Ie if seven are up by 2012, and then we decide we need to add MidEast coverage plus a big chunk of China, if we throw up another 3-5 birds to expand...??

Going by the satellite locations map posted by Arun in the previous page, it looks to me like the planned constellation will cover not only the entire Indian Subcontinent, Indian Ocean Region, Middle East and South East Asia but also most of China and a good portion of Australia and Africa. If so, that would make the most sense given the expense and effort.

IRNSS coverage is all the way to North Japan, albeit with poorer DOP (Dilution of Precision) IIRC ~40 meters.

Meaning Indian message of love and peace extends to China (complete), Korea, Australia, Turkey, Libya and Angola.

The Indian Message of Peace flows from the tandem of :
    Sarve Bhavantu Sukhinah (May everybody be happy), Sarve Santu Niramaya (May everybody be free from disease) |
    Sarve Bhadrani Pashyantu
    (May everybody have good luck), Maa Kaschid Dukhbhag Bhavet (May none fall on sorrowful days)||.

    PLUS

    Peace reigns when the Gentle prosper, and the Wicked always chastised by 'dand' of Dharm (punishment).

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 15 May 2009 14:12

IRNSS will not be comparable to GPS or the Galileo (don't know much about Compass). IRNSS is mainly a Sub-Continent Satellite Navigation system. At present about 7 satellite are to be in the constellation. It's a very good start and it will pave way for an Indian GPS.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby krishnan » 15 May 2009 14:24


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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 15 May 2009 14:32

Bhaskara Narayana's presentation on IRNSS------------------

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/pdf/icg/2008/expert/2-3.pdf

I don't get this ---------------
It says that GAGAN payload will be launched on GSAT-4 this year.

We have already seen the PSLV-XL deliver the 1380 kg Chandrayaan into a 255 X22,860 km orbit. IRNSS will weigh 1380 kg and will be launched into 250 X 24,000 km orbit.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby shyamd » 15 May 2009 21:27

Mashallah! Our technology reaching the masses!

Image


Sky eye on opium dens
- Satellite maps guide police to illegal poppy fields in 11 districts, including Sahebganj & Pakur

Dumka, May 14: The home department has lodged a satellite war on opium dens. Armed with guide maps provided by remote sensing satellites, it is planning a crackdown on illegal poppy fields across 11 districts, including Sahebganj and Pakur.

Confidential letters, detailing the action plan, has already been rushed to police chiefs of all the concerned districts. It is learnt that the letters shed light on fringe areas — demarcated by satellite pictures — where illegal cultivation of poppy is rampant.

An intelligence officer, not willing to be named, said the districts of Sahebganj and Pakur hosted acres of poppy fields. “Last year, raids were conducted at a few places and poppy worth crores destroyed,” he said. “But the problem could not be exterminated.”

Interestingly, “outsiders” — mostly Bangladeshi drug peddlers —lure local peasants into illegal cultivation of poppy. “A drug merchant makes capital investment and also buys the produce from the poor farmer whose profit goes up to several thousands of rupees. The lure of the lucre is hard to resist — you invest little and earn a handsome profit,” the officer said.

The poppy pods are processed in Bangladesh. The druglords, who buy poppy from farmers in Sahebganj and Pakur, sell it in the international market at a much higher price. Besides these outsiders, Naxalite groups also indulge in the business for money to fund their organisations.

The market price of poppy pod varies from time to time. A single, mature pod can fetch anything between Rs 90 and Rs 130. Half-grown pods are sold at Rs 500-700 per bhari (about 10gm). Poppy milk, a gum like substance that is processed into opium, is sold at Rs 1,500-3,000 per bhari in the local market. The price in the international market is thrice, if not more.

The satellite watch has been spurred by recent reports prepared by the central economic intelligence bureau suggesting revenue loss of several crores because of illegal poppy cultivation. No official was ready to go on record with the exact figure. “You can imagine the loss to the state exchequer if you consider the price of opium ingredients,” an intelligence official said.

Earlier, under the chairmanship of state home secretary J.B. Tubid, district-level teams were constituted to counter the alarming rise in such activities. The committees comprise superintendents of police, district forest officers, district public prosecutors, representatives of district-level excise department, representatives of district-level special branch officers, representatives of district-level crime investigating bureau and district public relation officers. The deputy commissioners can nominate anyone in the committee.

The teams have been asked to identify poppy fields in their respective districts and destroy them. Now, the satellite maps will come in handy. A nodal officer has also been deputed in each district to co-ordinate between the state and police headquarters. A slew of other measures, such as awareness campaigns and rewards for information on opium dealers, have also been initiated to check the growing menace.

Sahebganj superintendent of police Parmeshwar Ravidas confirmed that they had received the guide maps and would take action accordingly. Sources in his office said raids were being planned in Rajmahal, Barharwa, Taljhari and Maharajpur. Pictures taken by remote sensing satellites show large-scale cultivation in these areas.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 16 May 2009 05:08

GPS, India's Equivalent in Three Years

“However, we plan to have our own IRNSS in three years. Covering the Indian Ocean region, this will provide positional accuracy of about 10 metres and is implemented using seven satellites, three in the geostationary transfer orbits and four in non-geostationary orbits,” he said.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby SSSalvi » 16 May 2009 11:25

In 1975/76 they were in the process of developing a GPS at Space Applications Center, Ahmedabad.
( Of course only the receiver part in those days ... suitcase size !! )

I don't know what happened later ( as I left SAC soon to join another DOS center ).

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Abhijit N » 17 May 2009 09:17

I was wondering...if GAGAN can provide 7.6m accuracy...

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/pdf/icg/2008/expert/2-3.pdf

..then we have the technology for accuracy up to that resolution right ? So why is the IRNSS still restricted to 18m....have they already frozen the design or is the technology of the 2 positioning systems very different ? Or has it to do with the accuracy of the clocks inside the satellites?

I mean 18m will provide a large error margin if used in cars or trains right ? A few days ago ISRO had spoken of equipping locomotives with GPS.Eventually if we wanted to shift this to our system....we would still have a long way to go

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=%E2%80%98RISAT+to+redefine+disaster+management%E2%80%99&artid=U2LI9jSLvkM=&SectionID=Qz/kHVp9tEs=&MainSectionID=Qz/kHVp9tEs=&SEO=Radar+Imaging+Satellite&SectionName=UOaHCPTTmuP3XGzZRCAUTQ==

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 17 May 2009 13:07

Abhijit N wrote:...
I mean 18m will provide a large error margin if used in cars or trains right ? A few days ago ISRO had spoken of equipping locomotives with GPS.Eventually if we wanted to shift this to our system....we would still have a long way to go
...


The existing GPS system is not going away for civilian use. The average Ramu or Shyamu is still going to find the nearest Barista using his GPS receiver. GPS receivers are sold in huge volumes around the world and economy of scale is going to ensure that it will only get cheaper with time. What is of greater importance to Indians really is that we have accurate maps for GPS receivers to use! I've used GPS in the US and Australia and the volume of information available at hand is mind boggling. Simply put the GPS can find you your nearest or desired pharmacy, parking lot, fuel station, hospital, hotel, restaurant, tourist destination, etc.

The only risk with using an American system is that it could disappear in our hour of military need. In that hour of need if our ballistic missile is 18m off target due to IRNSS then that's not a big deal. If the smarter cruise missile is 18m off target a few minutes before impact but the seeker is capable of discerning the target from the clutter then once again there is no problem. With a 4-way guidance system, i.e. accelerometers, ring laser gyros, IRNSS navigation, and terminal guidance from a smart seeker, I can't think of what more can be done to make the likelihood of a kill better. Having a laser illuminate the target is perhaps the only way it can get any better.

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Re: GSLV MK 3

Postby rachel » 17 May 2009 19:39

Sorry to detraact a bit from GPS dialogue, but I wanted to ask some opinions about our possibly catching up to Chin-Jap capabilities in large rockets:

INDIA says GSLV Mk 3 will be ready in 2010-2011; it will be fully indigeneous and lauch 4 tons.

CHINA and JAPAN currently have maximum launch capability of 4.4 tons geo.

MY FEAR: by the time we get our 4 ton capability into place, those two will have moved even further ahead.

BY 2011, how far do you thin China and Japan will have advanced ahead of where they are now? Do you think they'll be up to ..what? 6 ton? 8 ton?

When are we actually gonna catch up to these guys?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arunkumar » 17 May 2009 20:03

^^^

IMVHO development of 2MN thrust semi-cryogenic engine (SCE) should be complete by (2014??). Thrust of this engine is more or less equal to RD-191.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RD-191

Assuming ISRO goes in for a Angara-5 type design with 5 SCE in first stage and KVRB stage , we can put 6.6 tonne in GTO or 25 tonne in LEO.
http://www.geocities.com/launchreport/angara.html

Jest my opinion onlee.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 17 May 2009 20:27

Arunkumar wrote:^^^

IMVHO development of 2MN thrust semi-cryogenic engine (SCE) should be complete by (2014??). Thrust of this engine is more or less equal to RD-191.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RD-191

Assuming ISRO goes in for a Angara-5 type design with 5 SCE in first stage and KVRB stage , we can put 6.6 tonne in GTO or 25 tonne in LEO.
http://www.geocities.com/launchreport/angara.html

Jest my opinion onlee.


The most likely place where the first indigenous Semi-Cryo stage will be going is the core stage of GSLV-Mk 3.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Sanjay M » 18 May 2009 09:59

I really wish MTCR would be amended so that there could be international cooperation on space launch vehicles among top-level space powers. If NPT/NSG allow it, then why can't MTCR?

It's quite difficult funding/developing such large rockets on one's own.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby vavinash » 18 May 2009 12:14

After spending millions on them why would anyone be stupid enough to share it? India does not need any help. It will be self sufficient by 2012-14 time frame.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 18 May 2009 20:38

Abhijit N wrote:I was wondering...if GAGAN can provide 7.6m accuracy...

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/pdf/icg/2008/expert/2-3.pdf

..then we have the technology for accuracy up to that resolution right ? So why is the IRNSS still restricted to 18m....have they already frozen the design or is the technology of the 2 positioning systems very different ? Or has it to do with the accuracy of the clocks inside the satellites?

I mean 18m will provide a large error margin if used in cars or trains right ? A few days ago ISRO had spoken of equipping locomotives with GPS.Eventually if we wanted to shift this to our system....we would still have a long way to go

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=%E2%80%98RISAT+to+redefine+disaster+management%E2%80%99&artid=U2LI9jSLvkM=&SectionID=Qz/kHVp9tEs=&MainSectionID=Qz/kHVp9tEs=&SEO=Radar+Imaging+Satellite&SectionName=UOaHCPTTmuP3XGzZRCAUTQ==


Bhai saab, Where did you get the 7.8m GAGAN accuracy? WASS specificationcs call for maximum of 7.8m accuracy, but modern WASS systems (including GAGAN) greatly exceed that and provide 1 m or better accuracy that too in vertical axis (the most difficult of the axis for accuracy purposes) thus GAGAN/WASS is good for precision approach and automatic landing.

Pls also see this first phase result report :

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/2239

ISRO, Raytheon complete tests for GAGAN Satellite Navigational System
Dated 20/7/2006

Farnborough: An ambitious satellite-based navigation system being developed by India's space agency ISRO and US defence major Raytheon has successfully completed preliminary tests, a top official of the American company announced said.

The preliminary system acceptance test for the Technology Demonstration System (TDS) of the GPS-aided Geo Augmented Navigation (Gagan), being developed by the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) to improve Air Traffic Control, was successful, Raytheon Vice President Andy Zogg told reporters here.

"This test was significant because the Gagan-TDS ground elements supplied by Raytheon were installed and integrated ahead of schedule," he said.

"More importantly, the system functioned properly and exceeded the accuracy requirements."

The Airports Authority of India (AAI) plans to use Gagan to meet the civil aviation industry's growing needs in communications, navigation and surveillance and air traffic management. It will result in greater efficiency and safety in over 100 airports in India.

The Gagan-TDS network monitors Global Positioning Satellite (GPS) signals for errors and then generates correction messages to improve accuracy for users. Once in place, the system can also be used by other modes of transport, including rail, road and maritime traffic.

During the test period, average accuracy of Gagan-TDS was better than one metre horizontally and only slightly more than one metre vertically, thus surpassing the 7.6 metre requirement by a significant margin.

"We are very pleased with the cooperative effort among Raytheon, ISRO and AAI that led to this successful test," said Zogg. "The TDS phase of this programme demonstrated how to successfully deploy a SBAS (Satellite-Based Augmentation System) in India, so all of the participants are better prepared for the next stage of the programme."

ISRO awarded a contract in November 2004 to Raytheon to supply and install the ground-based elements of Gagan. India is investing nearly Rs 110 crore in the project.

The Gagan-TDS is the first phase of the project sponsored by ISRO and AAI to implement a space-based navigation system in Indian airspace. Gagan is one of several systems being deployed around the world as part of an initiative endorsed by the International Civil Aviation Organisation to help civil aircraft move to satellite-based signals from ground-based navigation aids.

The technology enhances navigation in all phases of flight, from take-off through landing. Routes are more flexible and efficient, landing safety is increased, and navigation service providers offer better guidance at lower costs.

The Gagan-TDS project consists of an Indian Monitor and Control Centre in Bangalore, an Indian land uplink station also in Bangalore, and eight reference stations distributed across the country.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 21 May 2009 02:15

Check the last line of this report out:

http://www.hindu.com/2009/05/21/stories/2009052155271100.htm

All the six AWACS will be linked with the country’s first military satellite proposed to be launched by the middle of next year.


What is this "military satellite" that is being referred to? I have come across this in several reports. Sometimes its referred to as a dedicated IAF satellite.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Sanjay M » 25 May 2009 12:02

If I may say, I feel that the "Indian Space Program" and "Chandrayaan" threads should either be in the Technology & Economics forum, or else in General Discussion forum.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Nitesh » 27 May 2009 18:06

India's manned space mission will have IAF men

NEW DELHI: When India's first manned mission to space takes off, possibly in 2017, it will have Indian Air Force (IAF) personnel on board.

"Let me promise you one thing, if there is a (Indian) man on moon (read space), it will be from the Indian Air Force," IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major told reporters here.


Dismissing the criticism of the huge costs involved in the mission, another senior IAF official listed its military advantages. He said it will help India acquire Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) capability.

"To place a spacecraft in orbit, we will require a bigger rocket booster. This large rocket booster will help India acquire ICBM capability," the senior official added. :!:


He also said it would boost the country's reconnaisance capability. "To be in constant touch with the astronauts as they revolve around the earth, we will need to interlink our satellites, which in turn will boost our reconnaissance capability. Presently, we are able to get 15 minutes' feed daily from our satellites. The space mission will give us 90 minutes' feed," he said.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby sum » 27 May 2009 19:31

"To place a spacecraft in orbit, we will require a bigger rocket booster. This large rocket booster will help India acquire ICBM capability," the senior official added

Did a IAF official actually say this or is it usual DDM? :-?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 27 May 2009 20:44

sum wrote:
"To place a spacecraft in orbit, we will require a bigger rocket booster. This large rocket booster will help India acquire ICBM capability," the senior official added

Did a IAF official actually say this or is it usual DDM? :-?


I hope people get an idea of how well senior military officers are informed, abreast and kept in loop on strategic weapons domain.

And this is IAF who fought and claimed exclusive right to wield the Indian long range missiles.

It is not intentional obfuscation, it is as unwrapped core as it gets. If I had to grade them I will give them a 5 on scale of 100.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 27 May 2009 22:13

sum wrote:
"To place a spacecraft in orbit, we will require a bigger rocket booster. This large rocket booster will help India acquire ICBM capability," the senior official added

Did a IAF official actually say this or is it usual DDM? :-?


I think it was a cautious statement to justify the Human Spaceflight Programme. The U.S , Russian and Chinese airforces are heavily involved in Human Spaceflight Programme of their countries. IAF surely wants to go on with this and may well have been influential in getting it granted.

In all, IAF is very very keen on entering into a Space Programme of itself as ISRO had previously stated that it wasn't comfortable with immense military involvement in it's activities and because it is a matter of prestige to any military to have the capability of to maintain and launch satellites on it's own. This is just the beginning and we ought to see more IAF involvement in space activities before a full fledged Aerospace Command comes into being.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby kobe » 28 May 2009 01:50

cyclone aila

given indian expertise in space based remote sensing, why so many deaths occur all the time?
can india share the cyclone path and strength info with the bangladeshi's? (whether BD's act on it or not is another story, but if we have the info it should be shared).

if india wants to be a regional super power then ISRO etc should provide such services to the neighboring countries.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Virupaksha » 28 May 2009 02:28

kobe wrote:cyclone aila

given indian expertise in space based remote sensing, why so many deaths occur all the time?

Space and weather science is not 100% reliable. For example I remember about 6-7 years ago in AP, when met dept had forecasted huge cyclone- people were evacuated in many districts. but it was a damp squid. now remember the repeated "fox" story.

and met dept is just an input. Say a cyclone is predicted in 5 days. This information has to reach district admin, who will reach village admin, who then have to take action- approximately 1-2 days. Now the village admin has to dissipate this info to all and eliminate doubts. so around 1 day. Now get all the laggards moving another 1-2 days. Do we/BD have sufficient operational readiness to achieve all that in 3 days. Remember evacuate 1/4 of a district means around 10-20 lakh people, the same number of IDPs as in Swat. Where do these people go? To relief camps, so you need to be ready to set up and be able to feed 3 lakh people at 1-2 days notice.
Think of the logistics required and the amount of material which is to be required on stand by as relief camps of this magnitude have to set up in 1 day notice. Remember Katrina, forget pre-katrina, what happened for months after katrina. The "bestest" admin of US failed and you expect "third world" country admins to succeed?
can india share the cyclone path and strength info with the bangladeshi's? (whether BD's act on it or not is another story, but if we have the info it should be shared).

if india wants to be a regional super power then ISRO etc should provide such services to the neighboring countries.

should?? What obligation does Isro have towards bangladeshis - let me remind you zero, a big zero

yes, isro may help. But the problem is this, sometimes a cyclone can be bigger than predicted. So say it damages more areas than estimated. If BDs say this is becoz of India, how is anyone going to answer for it?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Bade » 28 May 2009 02:37

Folks, remember that after the failed evacuation of Houston as in clogged highways following the next hurricane after the Katrina fiasco, people were encouraged to stay put in their homes, as it was considered safer to do so than be on the roads.

Targeted evacuation of specific areas in a timely manner is what will ensure disaster reduction. The track predictions even by IMD have improved considerably as is evident in this lower count of deaths...which usually used to end up in the thousands till a few years ago.

kobe
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby kobe » 28 May 2009 03:19

none of the reasons above compare with 200 people dying.
so what if its a false alarm? a simple email or phone call is what could
india / isro do to the neighboring countries on a previously agreed terms,
and the receiving country can take it for what its worth. actual evacuation
etc would be the individual country or state's responsibility. Only thing
that is suggested here is sharing of information about the size and path
of the cyclone. I don't know what politics need to be weighed here.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby BijuShet » 28 May 2009 03:32

kobe wrote:none of the reasons above compare with 200 people dying.
so what if its a false alarm? a simple email or phone call is what could
india / isro do to the neighboring countries on a previously agreed terms,
and the receiving country can take it for what its worth. actual evacuation
etc would be the individual country or state's responsibility. Only thing
that is suggested here is sharing of information about the size and path
of the cyclone. I don't know what politics need to be weighed here.

Kobeji if GoI started to share warnings with its neighbors then they will demand the proof/reason for the warnings. A weather warning is a result of lots of inputs (raw data gathered by several met stations & Sat data etc). So instead of taking the digested information in the form of warning they will want to get to the raw data. They will insist on verifying the authenticity of the warning themselves. Now GoI cannot start sharing all of its hard earned/acquired knoweldge with our neighbors just out of goodwill when we know the goodwill is felt from our side only. In addition, not all of the sat data may be pertinent just to weather i.e. some data may have potential for missue. Given all this how do you propose a simple way for us to warn our neighbor of an impending natural disaster? Besides any warnings that dont come true will lead to unnecessary anger from their population against the big bad Indians. As for the impending disaster warnings why do you feel we do not share this kind of information at the highest level? It is very likely we may not have a well defined formal structure for such data sharing.

Bade
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Bade » 28 May 2009 08:40

India does share information. Point in case was Nargis when Burma was warned before hand. Same goes for Bangladesh too. In the case of B'desh any warning for W.Bengal region is warning enough for B'desh too. Is there any proof that India does not share information with neighbours ? I very much doubt it, since satellite data is available for sale and some even free from various portals be it NASA, NOAA or ESA.

ISRO is not the nodal agency responsible for data distribution and disaster warning even within India. It is the Indian Meteorological Department. ISRO is not involved in the day to day forecasting and other disaster management operations and support activities. As far as I know even NRSA is an independent agency or was till recently.

It is another matter that things move at a glacial pace even in India and within Indian agencies, if that is what you want to address.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby disha » 28 May 2009 09:32

kobe wrote:none of the reasons above compare with 200 people dying.
so what if its a false alarm? a simple email or phone call is what could
india / isro do to the neighboring countries on a previously agreed terms,
and the receiving country can take it for what its worth. actual evacuation
etc would be the individual country or state's responsibility. Only thing
that is suggested here is sharing of information about the size and path
of the cyclone. I don't know what politics need to be weighed here.


There is already a framework to share information under the aegis of SAARC Disaster Management System. This system has been pioneered again by India and lot of information comes from India.

ISRO does not operate the meteorological department, it manages satellites and the met dept. job is to forecast and issue appropriate warnings and advisories. There is a gradation of Cyclones and the Cyclones are also now named. The met. dept. warnings are given at national and state levels and it is the state administration that has to take action. There is a chain of commands down to the district level.

In cases like Alia, India's met. dept. can only predict the path and issue warnings and advisories. It is upto the Bangla desh to follow it up and issue local advisories and coordinate evacuation and other aspects. So what you are suggesting is not at all new.

You can check this out http://saarc-sdmc.nic.in/pdf/publications/climate/cover.pdf. The framework was established atleast a decade back

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Gerard » 29 May 2009 03:46

link
"Space is more crowded than ever," said Lieutenant General Larry James of the Air Force Space Command in testimony before the Senate Subcomittee on Strategic Forces.
The government is supposed to warn of satellite collisions, but Nelson noted that an Indian satellite collided with a Russian satellite, which sparked a discussion of today's satellite capabilities.

sunilUpa
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 29 May 2009 04:19

^^^ Gerard, that is not 'Indian' satellite, but 'Iridium' which is a US satellite. There was a collission between Iridium and Cosmos in February.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby hnair » 29 May 2009 04:29

I think Brigadier Gerard is making a point :)


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