Indian Space Program Discussion

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby rachel » 24 Jul 2009 01:45

arun wrote:Arianespace To Launch HYLAS Telecommunications Satellite

ISRO has a role in all of this. HYLAS is based on ISRO’s I-2K bus and is designed to “bridge the digital divide” by providing broadband internet access to rural areas.


This is pleasant news. And a bit surprising in details.

Can tech gurus comment on something that is perplexing me: how can ISRO I 2K bus, which upto now has supported C band satellites, be the basis of a Ka band satellite?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Kailash » 24 Jul 2009 11:28

Raytheon wins ground station deal from India

India has awarded Raytheon an $82 million contract to deploy a GPS-aided geosynchronous augmentation system (GAGAN) that should allow the country to begin using satellite-based instrument landing capabilities in the 2014 timeframe.

In the US, such approaches are known as lateral precision with vertical guidance (LPV).

The system will use two geosynchronous satellites to be built and launched by the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), the equivalent of NASA in the US, and one master station and eight ground reference stations to be provided by Raytheon.

Raytheon is leveraging its knowledge in building, deploying or developing four other GPS augmentation systems to date, including the wide-area augmentation system (WAAS) in the US, Japan's Multi-Function Transport Satellite Augmentation System and the Joint Precision Approach and Landing System for the US military.

Augmentation systems gather positioning information from existing global positioning networks like GPS or Galileo, calculate signal corrections to account for accuracy-reducing atmospheric perturbations, and retransmit modified signals to GPS-receiving equipment onboard aircraft.

As in the US, GAGAN will be designed to provide a guaranteed "uncertainty bound" of 50m (164ft) worst case, a specification set by ICAO to ensure that an aircraft will have adequate ground clearance at the decision height of 250ft above the ground on an LPV approach. Worst case conditions are expected to occur on an extremely rare basis.

In general, the Indian augmentation system will provide positional accuracies of roughly 3m, the same as for the US.

Raytheon in 2007 completed a $25 million technology demonstration of the system in India, proving out the ground station and communication strategy.

Raytheon will begin deploying the GAGAN ground infrastructure in 2012, with plans to make the system operational in 2013. Airlines will begin equipping aircraft with global positioning system receivers in 2014.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby arun » 24 Jul 2009 16:08

Routine except for the fact that GSAT-11 is reported as using the new I-4K satellite bus.

Presumably this is a 4 tonne class communication satellite for launch using the GSLV Mk III being developed :?: :

Govt gives green signal to GSAT-11 communication satellite

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby rachel » 24 Jul 2009 19:09

arun wrote:Routine except for the fact that GSAT-11 is reported as using the new I-4K satellite bus.

Presumably this is a 4 tonne class communication satellite for launch using the GSLV Mk III being developed :?: :

Govt gives green signal to GSAT-11 communication satellite


I dont think that a satellite with only 16 Ku band transponders would weigh anything close to 4 tons.

A European 4 ton satellite would be bristling with at least 32 Ku band transponders.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby rachel » 24 Jul 2009 19:23

http://www.sindhtoday.net/news/1/33886.htm

Contradictory data being provided here. This says 4.5 ton weight, and in one place says 40 transponders of Ku/Ka band, and later claims only 16 Ku/Ka band transponders.

Which is it???

DDM: ' proudly providing more questions than answers.'

At 4.5 tonnes, it will weigh more than twice as much as the biggest Indian satellite in orbit now.

.....

“The satellite will be designed at our satellite centre in Bangalore, payloads consisting of 40 transponders in Ku/Ka band will be built at the space applications centre in Ahmedabad and the 630-tonne rocket (GSLV-Mark III) will be rolled out from the liquid propulsion systems centre in Thiruvananthapuram,” Satish told IANS.

............

“With 16 high capacity multi-beams in Ku/Ka band, GSAT-11 will provide much faster uplinks for a host of communications and broadcasting services, including direct-to-home (DTH television).


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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby rachel » 25 Jul 2009 17:13



This makes much more sense.

ISRO has over the past many years continued to build satellites of roughly the same capacity (12-25 transponders, mostly C band with a few Ku) I think part of the reason for this is that they were waiting for GSLV lift capacity to increase.... and this has been suggested here on BR

I am quite certain that ISRO could have built a satellite with 30-35 (mostly) Ku band transponders 2 years ago.. but it would weigh at least 3 tons .. and they wouldve had to contract foreign launchers for this.

The pace of satellite development has been deliberately slowed down to allow indigeneous launch capacity to catch up. Which is a bit unfortunate.. I dont think we should deliberately slow down one part of the space program because another has to catch up.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 25 Jul 2009 21:54

There was supposed to the firing of Mk-3 solid boosters in the first quarter of this year. There is still no news from ISRO. The test firing of the ICE-25 is schedules for early next year. ISRO has complete these things quickly to realize the first flight in 2010-11.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 28 Jul 2009 01:27

ISRO 2008-09 Annual Report is out! :D :D :D

http://www.isro.org/rep2009/citizens.htm#

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 28 Jul 2009 06:13

Shankar wrote:Yes the C-50 is full cryo(LOX/LH2) as you call it to be placed on top of semi cryo stage now under project definition stage whcih will power the yet to be named booster .The thrust will also be much higher than C25 if not double)

C-50 !!
Bum bum Bholay Ji Ki Jai Ho.

rakall wrote:ISRO annula report:Semi Cryogenic Engine Development (SCED)
Semi-Cryogenic Engine development envisages the development of a high thrust engine producing 2000 kN (Vacuum) thrust with Liquid Oxygen and kerosene propellant combination for the Common Liquid Core in Unified Launch Vehicle (ULV). As part of semi-cryo engine development pre-project activities, five designs of single element pre-burner injector were realised and tested. Semi-cryo Project Report was prepared and clearance obtained. Conceptual design of the semi cryo engine has been completed.

Woaaa....
201 tonne thrust semi cryo stage !
That is as much thrust as the PSLV (S128) core booster stage

Is this thrust from one engine or cluster of engines?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Kailash » 28 Jul 2009 15:36

KrishG wrote:ISRO 2008-09 Annual Report is out! :D :D :D

http://www.isro.org/rep2009/citizens.htm#


Cool. Some information on the RLV-TD from above link. Looks like many of the subsystems are ready.

Reusable Launch Vehicle-Technology Demonstrator (RLV-TD)
As a first step towards realising a Two Stage To Orbit (TSTO) fully re-usable launch vehicle, a series of technology demonstration missions have been conceived. For this purpose a Winged Reusable Launch Vehicle technology Demonstrator (RLV-TD) has been configured. :?: .The RLV-TD will act as a flying test bed to evaluate various technologies viz., hypersonic flight, autonomous landing, powered cruise flight and hypersonic flight using air breathing propulsion. First in the series of demonstration trials is the hypersonic flight experiment (HEX).

Image
An artist’s view of RLV-TD

Towards this, Airframe Engineering model, axisymmetric proto nose cap after graphitisation (C-C) and slow burn rate propellant were realised. Aerodyanamic charcterisation of technology demonstration vehicle was completed at NAL, VSSC and IIST.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby symontk » 28 Jul 2009 20:49

201 tonne thrust semi cryo stage !
That is as much thrust as the PSLV (S128) core booster stage

Is this thrust from one engine or cluster of engines?


I have similar doubts about L110. Is it a cluster of 2 engines or a single engine? If its a single engine, its great :wink:

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 28 Jul 2009 21:29

symontk wrote:I have similar doubts about L110. Is it a cluster of 2 engines or a single engine? If its a single engine, its great :wink:

That is easy to answer. L110 is first Indian liquid engine cluster stage and it consists of 2 engines with many common parts of cluster that serve both engines.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 28 Jul 2009 22:04

Arun_S wrote:
Shankar wrote:Yes the C-50 is full cryo(LOX/LH2) as you call it to be placed on top of semi cryo stage now under project definition stage whcih will power the yet to be named booster .The thrust will also be much higher than C25 if not double)

C-50 !!
Bum bum Bholay Ji Ki Jai Ho.

rakall wrote:ISRO annula report:Semi Cryogenic Engine Development (SCED)
Semi-Cryogenic Engine development envisages the development of a high thrust engine producing 2000 kN (Vacuum) thrust with Liquid Oxygen and kerosene propellant combination for the Common Liquid Core in Unified Launch Vehicle (ULV). As part of semi-cryo engine development pre-project activities, five designs of single element pre-burner injector were realised and tested. Semi-cryo Project Report was prepared and clearance obtained. Conceptual design of the semi cryo engine has been completed.

Woaaa....
201 tonne thrust semi cryo stage !
That is as much thrust as the PSLV (S128) core booster stage.

Is this thrust from one engine or cluster of engines?


I believe it would be a cluster design. Something like Falcon-9 Heavy! It uses the same engine on the boosters and on the first stage. That way there will be no need of developing mutiple engines and testing all of them.

I also believe that one engine designed for the ULV could replace the present second stage of GSLV-Mk 3.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Katare » 29 Jul 2009 01:30

What are they going to do with 2000KN thrust (vacuum)? How big the rocket's going to be?

The existing GSLV produces 79KN (vacuum) to deliver 2 ton payloads to GS orbit

Could it be a typo and new engine is 200KN(vacuum) thrust, which would more than double the payload to 4-5 tons?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 29 Jul 2009 14:15

The RD-170 had 4 chambers and produced almost 8000 kN thrust. Manned flight to moon, re-usable launch vehicles perhaps for the ISRO semi-cryogenic engine ?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 30 Jul 2009 10:01

US Pact, not yet a launchpad for ISRO
Excerpts
One beneficiary would be the Indo-French meteorology satellite, Megha-Tropiques, with such components. Due in 2010, it may not need to seek US clearance.

The TSA, he said, should smoothen the way for governments and universities to look at ISRO to launch small experimental satellites.

While the Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre, the Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre and launch port Satish Dhawan Space Centre at Sriharikota remain blacklisted by the US as ‘entities’, the TSA’s benefits are anyone’s guess. Asked about this, the ISRO Chairman, Mr G. Madhavan Nair, said on Wednesday, “it’s a process which goes on [for removing them.]”

The pact limits ISRO to some of the 25-30 small satellites that are said to be coming up.
The operator of the Italian satellite `Agile' that went on a PSLV in 2007 reportedly got the clearances as a one-off. At least one contract was reportedly lost for the same reason.

Mr K. R. Sridhara Murthi, Executive Director of ISRO's business arm, Antrix Corporation, said, "[The pact] won't suddenly change our business. Third parties can now come to us for a launch with less uncertainty and more comfort. They do not have to wait for US export control clearance."

One refrain is: "It is difficult to find satellites without US components."

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 30 Jul 2009 11:28

Katare wrote:What are they going to do with 2000KN thrust (vacuum)? How big the rocket's going to be?

That is for the booster core and second stages. And that will reduce the size of ISRO vehicles that are comparatively monstrous due to the low ISP of the core stage.

The existing GSLV produces 79KN (vacuum) to deliver 2 ton payloads to GS orbit
Could it be a typo and new engine is 200KN(vacuum) thrust, which would more than double the payload to 4-5 tons?

Yes but semi-cryo is being developed not for the upper stage, that will continue to be cryo C12 or C25. Not a typo.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 30 Jul 2009 15:22

Yes but semi-cryo is being developed not for the upper stage, that will continue to be cryo C12 or C25. Not a typo.


Isn't 2000 kN in vacuum just a way of specifying the thrust in somewhat a near-ideal situation as vacuum. All rocket engines produce higher thrust in vacuum and even core-stage engines like the Merlin-1 have their thrust specified in both vaccum and sea-level. So, it would make sense for us to believe that this 2000kN engine would most probably be the core stage of a follow-on version of GSLV-Mk III.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Hiten » 30 Jul 2009 17:41

ISRO can now put US satellites into space

He added that the TSA gives an opportunity for the launch of foreign built non-commercial satellites and not the heavy commercial ones which will require the two countries to sign the commercial space launch agreement (CSLA).

CSLA is likely to be signed between India and US during Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s visit US.



ESRI Lauds Dr. Krishnaswamy Kasturirangan for Making a Difference

Award Goes to Astrophysicist for Launching Remote-Sensing and Geographic Information System Technology in India and Beyond



ISRO launches top notch GIS software


Mopping floors to mapping India

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Katare » 31 Jul 2009 01:46

Arun_S wrote:
Katare wrote:What are they going to do with 2000KN thrust (vacuum)? How big the rocket's going to be?

That is for the booster core and second stages. And that will reduce the size of ISRO vehicles that are comparatively monstrous due to the low ISP of the core stage.

The existing GSLV produces 79KN (vacuum) to deliver 2 ton payloads to GS orbit
Could it be a typo and new engine is 200KN(vacuum) thrust, which would more than double the payload to 4-5 tons?

Yes but semi-cryo is being developed not for the upper stage, that will continue to be cryo C12 or C25. Not a typo.


Ohh, makes sense now! Thx

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby dinesha » 31 Jul 2009 09:46

Space Launch Vehicles - total vacuum impulse (MN*s)
http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_2/Div ... /index.htm

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby SSSalvi » 01 Aug 2009 17:27

Understand that the Indigeneous version of Earth images [ said to be superior in content and more user friendly than Google Earth ] ( obtained by Indian satellites and which will update images very often with latest ones ) is coming very soon... within a matter of days.

========
s^3

http://en.netlog.com/sssalvi

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Willy » 01 Aug 2009 20:58

What type of monster rocket is the C50 cryo engine going to blast into space?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby symontk » 01 Aug 2009 21:55

You can have different versions of GSLV-Mk4. My favourites are the below ones

Ver 1

S200 * 2 - 450
L110 - 130
C50 - 70

Total Weight - 650 tonnes

Ver 2

S200 * 2 - 450
SC200 - 250
C50 - 70

Total Weight - 770 tonnes

Ver 3

S200 * 2 - 450
L110 * 2 - 260
SC200 - 250
C50 - 70

Total Weight - 1030 tonnes

Ver 4

S200 * 4 - 900
L110 * 2 - 260
SC200 - 250
C50 - 70

Total Weight - 1480 tonnes

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby tejas » 01 Aug 2009 22:30

Hi, symontk. What is the payload capability of the GSLV mk III version 4? I thought 6 tons to GTO was the max. TIA

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 01 Aug 2009 23:20

KrishG wrote:
Yes but semi-cryo is being developed not for the upper stage, that will continue to be cryo C12 or C25. Not a typo.


Isn't 2000 kN in vacuum just a way of specifying the thrust in somewhat a near-ideal situation as vacuum. All rocket engines produce higher thrust in vacuum and even core-stage engines like the Merlin-1 have their thrust specified in both vacuum and sea-level. So, it would make sense for us to believe that this 2000kN engine would most probably be the core stage of a follow-on version of GSLV-Mk III.

An engine specified for 2,000 kN (I.e. 204 tonne force) in vacuum will generate somewhat lower thrust at sea level. When used as a booster the cone has to be reshaped and re sized (somewhat bigger then the version that is specified for use above 15 Km altitude) thus will have somewhat lower stage mass-fraction. But given the very significant ISP difference w.r.t. solid stages, when used as booster it will perform much better than an equivalent weight solid booster stage. Also because such high ISP cores stage can be easily sized up for larger fuel capacity (unlike solid fuel stages), the configuration lends itself to efficient booster strapping with solid or liquid stage-0 that augment thrust for shorter flight period (compared to classic problem with PSLV/GSLV where the core expends sooner than the strap-ons, thus the strap-ons unnecessarily accelerates the dead weight of expended core stage.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby disha » 01 Aug 2009 23:53

Arun_S wrote: But given the very significant ISP difference w.r.t. solid stages, when used as booster it will perform much better than an equivalent weight solid booster stage. Also because such high ISP cores stage can be easily sized up for larger fuel capacity (unlike solid fuel stages), the configuration lends itself to efficient booster strapping with solid or liquid stage-0 that augment thrust for shorter flight period (compared to classic problem with PSLV/GSLV where the core expends sooner than the strap-ons, thus the strap-ons unnecessarily accelerates the dead weight of expended core stage.


That is what I thought, the Semi-cryogenic will become a booster stage for UMLV. One can have a core alone stage or strap on booster stage, just like we have with PSLV but with higher ISP.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 02 Aug 2009 00:35

disha wrote:
Arun_S wrote: But given the very significant ISP difference w.r.t. solid stages, when used as booster it will perform much better than an equivalent weight solid booster stage. Also because such high ISP cores stage can be easily sized up for larger fuel capacity (unlike solid fuel stages), the configuration lends itself to efficient booster strapping with solid or liquid stage-0 that augment thrust for shorter flight period (compared to classic problem with PSLV/GSLV where the core expends sooner than the strap-ons, thus the strap-ons unnecessarily accelerates the dead weight of expended core stage.


That is what I thought, the Semi-cryogenic will become a booster stage for UMLV. One can have a core alone stage or strap on booster stage, just like we have with PSLV but with higher ISP.


I would predict something like the Delta-IV Heavy ie the engines to be used in the same way RS-68 is used. The RS-68 powers both the boosters and the core stage with the burn-time being 10 sec more for the core stage.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 02 Aug 2009 01:19

OK. The current 2 MN thrust semi-cryo engine that ISRO is planning to develop will according to me very very closely match the RD-191 of Russia. The RD-191 is the basis of the Angara family and by seeing at this family of rockets we can imagine where ISRO's 2 MN rated engine goes---

First of all, specifications of RD-191

Dry weight : 2,200 kg
ISP (vacuum) : 337 sec
Thrust (vacuum) : 2,090 kN
Thrust (SL) : 1,920 kN

ISRO's 2 MN thrust engine could have very similar performance to RD-191.

Here are some of the Angara family launchers -----------------

Image
Angara 3A
Boosters - 2 boosters each with one RD-191 (1,40,000 kg each)
Core Stage Engine - 1 X RD-191 (Mass of whole stage - 1,40,000 kg)
Upper Stage Engine- 1 X RD-124 (CE) (Mass of whole stage -25,200 kg)
LEO payload - 14 tons

Image
Angara 5A
Boosters - 4 boosters each with one RD-191 (1,40,000 kg each)
Core Stage Engine - 1 X RD-191 (Mass of whole stage - 1,40,000 kg)
Upper Stage Engine - 1 X RD-56M (CE) (Mass of whole stage -25,200 kg) (Similar thrust rating to ISRO's CUS engine going on the present GSLV)
LEO payload - 28.5 tons

Therefore I am pretty confident that UMLV will have a configuration similar to Angara-5A

UMLV can be the following (Speculated figures)--------
Boosters - 4 boosters each with one Indigenous 2 MN thrust engines
Core Stage Engine - 1 X Indigenous 2 MN thrust engine
Upper Stage Engine - 1 X ICE
LEO payload - approximately 25 tons

NOTE: Only speculated figures

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 02 Aug 2009 02:06

BTW Angara has now become South.Korean space launcher vehicle. They have the booster ready form Russia and S.Koreans added a mere 1 tonne upper stage to take their first satellite to low earth orbit.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 02 Aug 2009 13:38

Arun_S wrote:BTW Angara has now become South.Korean space launcher vehicle. They have the booster ready form Russia and S.Koreans added a mere 1 tonne upper stage to take their first satellite to low earth orbit.


RD-191 powers only the first stage of Naro-1. We have to remember that Naro-1 is just a 2-stage vehicle with a very, how to put it? Weak second stage ( Solid propellent, Burn time-25 sec, ISP-250 sec and Propellent weight is 900 kg)

It doesn't have boosters, so the max thrust at liftoff comes from the powerful RD-191. The second stage being solid has the least ISP and their target payload was 100 kg to LEO so the Koreans are making a suitable solid 2nd stage with a burn time of 25 sec.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby symontk » 02 Aug 2009 20:55

The versions which I have given shuld have increasing payload capability, the last one ver 4 should have 10-12 tons to GTO. Probably Arun can say the exact mass using his payload prediction tool

It was all dream vehicles. ISRO might have much better plans for those stages!!!

I have never heard of any mass restrictions to GTO. Have anyone come across one with restriction to 6 tons?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 02 Aug 2009 20:59

symontk wrote:The versions which I have given shuld have increasing payload capability, the last one ver 4 should have 10-12 tons to GTO. Probably Arun can say the exact mass using his payload prediction tool

It was all dream vehicles. ISRO might have much better plans for those stages!!!

I have never heard of any mass restrictions to GTO. Have anyone come across one with restriction to 6 tons?


I am really doubtful about your last version.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby symontk » 02 Aug 2009 21:08

Any reason for that, KrishG?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby kasthuri » 02 Aug 2009 22:31

Any news on the MK III launch and what is happening with it?

Looking at this calendar

http://www.isro.org/decade_plan.htm

it looks like its more than year behind schedule...

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby tejas » 03 Aug 2009 00:57

The 6 ton max payload to GTO by the GSLV mk III is stated on BR's Space page by Arun garu himself. I have seen this same number listed on several Google searches as well. This number seems much lower than what our Chinese brothers are capable of or will soon be capable of launching.

I was thus hoping a modified GSLV mk III or IV could put more than 6 tons into GTO as satellites seem to be getting heavier by the day.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby disha » 03 Aug 2009 06:54

tejas wrote:I was thus hoping a modified GSLV mk III or IV could put more than 6 tons into GTO as satellites seem to be getting heavier by the day.


Which satellites are getting heavier by the day? The IRS satellites? Or the communication satellites? Or the global positioning systems? Or the satellites for moon? Also if tomorrow Chinese put a bus in orbit, should India do the same? Why? To prove what capability?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby disha » 03 Aug 2009 06:57

kasthuri wrote:Any news on the MK III launch and what is happening with it?

Looking at this calendar

http://www.isro.org/decade_plan.htm

it looks like its more than year behind schedule...


Launch most likely in 2010.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby rachel » 03 Aug 2009 07:14

disha wrote:
tejas wrote:I was thus hoping a modified GSLV mk III or IV could put more than 6 tons into GTO as satellites seem to be getting heavier by the day.


Which satellites are getting heavier by the day? The IRS satellites? Or the communication satellites? Or the global positioning systems? Or the satellites for moon? Also if tomorrow Chinese put a bus in orbit, should India do the same? Why? To prove what capability?



Our own ISRO comm-sat announced recently (GSAT 11) will be over 4 tons. The latest EADS commsats with 50plus Ku and Ka xponders are about 5-6 tons, IIRC.

There certainly is a need to dramaticaaly boost lifting power.


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