Indian Space Program Discussion

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 09 Nov 2008 01:40

The outside world had little clue about W2M, but Antrix does not mind. It is now putting together another satellite, Hylas, for a UKbased client, even as ISRO works on Chandrayaan-2.

HYLAS is a hybrid Ka Band/Ku Band satellite with European coverage. The satellite will be used mainly to provide broadband Internet access and to distribute and broadcast High Definition Television (HDTV).

The contract between ESA and Avanti Screenmedia Group PLC covers support for the development of the most innovative elements of this new system. The supplier of the HYLAS Satellite is EADS Astrium Limited. ESA’s contribution is €34m of a total estimated project cost of €120m.

Raj · Post by **Raj** » 09 Nov 2008 02:46

vavinash wrote:Manned mission will use GLSV-II not III. It will most likely put 1-2 cosmonauts in space not an entire platoon.

Thanks for the education, Avinash. It looks like GSLV-II has been canceled according to wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSLV_III

There is no GSLV-II - the GSLV-I has a Russian-made cryogenic third stage, which was to be replaced with an identical Indian-built one for the GSLV-II. US objections based on the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) prevented the Russia-India technology transfer that would have enabled this, leading to cancellation of the GSLV-II.

7500 kg, I mentioned is based on ShenZhou-5 mass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhou_5

* Mass: 7,790 kg
* Perigee: 332 km
* Apogee: 336 km
* Inclination: 42.4°
* Period: 91.2 minutes
* NSSDC ID: 2003-045A

Thanks also for the information about not putting an entire platoon but only 1 or 2 Astronauts.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 09 Nov 2008 03:41

The GSLV Mk2 has not been canceled. The indigenous cryogenic stage has been qualified and will be flight tested on GSLV-D3

Raj · Post by **Raj** » 09 Nov 2008 03:55

Gerard wrote:The GSLV Mk2 has not been canceled. The indigenous cryogenic stage has been qualified and will be flight tested on GSLV-D3

Gerard, thanks for the clarification.

George J · Post by **George J** » 09 Nov 2008 04:03

GSLV Mk.II will launch the Glonass-M sats.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 09 Nov 2008 04:25

Nothing much has been heard about GLONASS M. There were some rumours that russia will be launching all of them. Any new updates. Raj, you are welcome.But seeing the time line I believe India might use GSLV-III. Its first flight in 2010 gives enough time to perfect its launch and test life support systems by 2015.

George J · Post by **George J** » 09 Nov 2008 05:07

GSLV Mk.II will be use to launch the GLONASS-M, the Payload Assembly Module has already been fabricated.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 09 Nov 2008 05:30

Any dates fixed yet? The GLONASS-M is 1450 kg ideal for GSLV-II compared to K which will be 750 kg. Hopefully India can do a single triple launch of K on the GSLV-II later.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 10 Nov 2008 22:53

Saw this very good graphic done at this website - Bharatboom

Indian Space Launchers

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 11 Nov 2008 13:52

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Afte ... latestnews

After moon odyssey, it's 'Mission Sun' for ISRO
11 Nov 2008, 1307 hrs IST, PTI

BANGALORE: After Chandrayaan-I moon odyssey, it's in a way "Mission Sun" for team ISRO.

Scientists at the Indian Space Research Organisation are in an advance stage of designing a spacecraft, named 'Aditya', to study the outermost region of the Sun called corona.

"That's a mini satellite. In fact, the design is just getting completed," ISRO chairman G Madhavan Nair said.

"During solar maxim...which is happening...we would like to see the type of emissions which are taking place in the Sun and how it interacts with the ionosphere and atmosphere and so on," he said.

According to Dr Jayati Datta, deputy programme director, space science office, ISRO, Aditya is the first space based Solar coronagraph intended to study corona.

'Aditya' would be the first attempt by the Indian scientific community to unravel the mysteries associated with coronal heating, coronal mass ejections and the associated space weather processes and study of these would provide important information on the solar activity conditions, she said.

"A basic understanding of the physical processes and continuous monitoring would help in taking necessary steps towards protecting ISRO's satellites either by switching them off or putting them on a stand-by mode as warranted by the background conditions," Datta Said.

The temperature of the solar corona goes beyond million degrees. From the Earth, corona can be seen only during total solar eclipses mainly due to the bright Solar disc and the scattering of the sunlight by the Earth's atmosphere. One has to go beyond the atmosphere to be able to mask the bright solar disc and study the corona.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 11 Nov 2008 17:21

prao · Post by **prao** » 12 Nov 2008 02:01

Came across this very interesting website of a Mexican gentleman who builds ingenious paper models. One of his paper models is India's very own GSLV! Indications are that a PSLV paper model is in the works too. Plans are posted. Here's the website:

http://www.chihuahuadepapel.com/index.htm

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 12 Nov 2008 02:13

China fears India-Japan space alliance

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 12 Nov 2008 02:23

prao wrote:Came across this very interesting website of a Mexican gentleman who builds ingenious paper models. One of his paper models is India's very own GSLV! Indications are that a PSLV paper model is in the works too. Plans are posted. Here's the website:
http://www.chihuahuadepapel.com/index.htm

Impressive for just paper, scissors and glue

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 12 Nov 2008 03:20

According to this forum:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. ... c=1173.270

PSLV-C12 (oceansat-2) will be launched in jan 2009 followed by GSLV-D3 (GSAT-4+ Tavuex). Haven't found a official link yet.
Had one question for experts. The oceansat-1 is supposed to help identify fishing zones etc. How does it do this? Can it see the fish shoals in the oceans. How deep can it look? Is it possible to look for larger objects like subs using this technique?

Ananth · Post by **Ananth** » 12 Nov 2008 04:10

Oceansat tracks plankton. Plankton is at the bottom of the food chain, find it and shoals of fish would likely be near by.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 12 Nov 2008 04:34

Planktons? They are microscopic. I guess when sufficient numbers are present they appear a different color from the ocean surface. Damn!! there goes my sub hunting theory.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 12 Nov 2008 04:42

Bioluminescent plankton glow when they are disturbed by a submerged submarine's wake. The last U-boat sunk during WW1 was depth charged by a ship following the bioluminescent trail

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 12 Nov 2008 06:16

Can this wake be picked up by recon sats? Ofcourse stationary sats would be better but they might be too far away.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Nov 2008 22:00

vavinash, yes. the tech exists.

anyway, people didn't respond to my earlier request

viz.

Rahul M wrote:guys, HELP WANTED !
anyone has a graphic showing the stage separation of a rocket as it injects the sat ? the kind we see regularly in magazines like frontline when sats are launched.

not the one in BR page http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SPACE/Images/fliprof.jpg
but a 3d one in colour that I remember having seen a number of times.
TIA.

but here goes another.
we all have seen the view of ISRO mission control during the launch of Chandrayaan-1 in the DD video.
unfortunately, I haven't been able to get a photo of the same in the media.
if anyone has come across such a pic, could you please help a fellow jingo ?

thanks.

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=xDfE83sFPHE
p.s. the scene is visible in this vid for example at 1:04 but I don't have the skills for a screen grab !

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 13 Nov 2008 15:54

ISRO mission control

ISRO mission control 2 at 1:04

rahul is this what you wanted?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Nov 2008 16:30

thanks avinash.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 13 Nov 2008 20:46

Chandrayaan-II to be launched by 2012: ISRO

CHENNAI: ISRO Chairman G Madhavan Nair on Thursday said India's second lunar mission, Chandrayaan-II, will be launched by 2012.

"Chandrayaan-II will be launched by 2012. We will have a lander that will drop a small robot on the moon, which will pick samples, analyse data and send the data back. Already the project has been formulated for Chandrayaan-II," he told reporters on the sidelines of a seminar here.

He dismissed as speculation reports that the government had not sanctioned ISRO's proposal for a manned mission.

Justifying the relevance of manned moon mission, Nair said, "We cannot be lagging behind in terms of our capability to access space. China, the US and Japan are going ahead with huge plans for space."

Talking about Chandrayaan-I, the country's first unmanned moon mission, he said the Moon Impact Probe would land on the lunar surface tomorrow evening. However, "we cannot specify the time as of now," he said.

On the success of the moon mission, Nair said already 95 per cent of the mission had been completed and just five per cent of the work had to be over. The total success of the mission would be known only after the remaining work was completed, he said.

He said Chandrayaan-I would get extensive study map of the moon by which an idea of the minerals of the moon would be available. Mineral mapping and surface feature mapping would be of prime importance, he said.

He also said the ISRO was going ahead with the study of sending a spacecraft to Mars.

On the 'Solar mission' Aditya, he said a satellite was intended to study solar emissions. The design work had been completed and it would be launched within two years, he said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 709342.cms

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 13 Nov 2008 23:53

prao wrote:Came across this very interesting website of a Mexican gentleman who builds ingenious paper models. One of his paper models is India's very own GSLV! Indications are that a PSLV paper model is in the works too. Plans are posted. Here's the website:

http://www.chihuahuadepapel.com/index.htm

He is going to have a PSLV paper model too (it shows under construction right now)...Impressive....I typically prefer plastic models (they last much longer and are more sturdy and dust resistant).

prao · Post by **prao** » 14 Nov 2008 00:46

Raja Bose wrote:
prao wrote:Came across this very interesting website of a Mexican gentleman who builds ingenious paper models. One of his paper models is India's very own GSLV! Indications are that a PSLV paper model is in the works too. Plans are posted. Here's the website:

http://www.chihuahuadepapel.com/index.htm
He is going to have a PSLV paper model too (it shows under construction right now)...Impressive....I typically prefer plastic models (they last much longer and are more sturdy and dust resistant).

Indeed, plastic models of Indian rockets was what I was looking for when I came across the paper models. You'd think (hope?) that there might be some enterprising company that would try to leverage the pride among Indians to build and sell models of Indian rockets and satellites but I could find nothing

There's a model of the HF-24 Marut available from an East European manufacturer though if I remember right (it's been a while since I found that)

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 14 Nov 2008 00:53

prao wrote:
Raja Bose wrote: He is going to have a PSLV paper model too (it shows under construction right now)...Impressive....I typically prefer plastic models (they last much longer and are more sturdy and dust resistant).
Indeed, plastic models of Indian rockets was what I was looking for when I came across the paper models. You'd think (hope?) that there might be some enterprising company that would try to leverage the pride among Indians to build and sell models of Indian rockets and satellites but I could find nothing There's a model of the HF-24 Marut available from an East European manufacturer though if I remember right (it's been a while since I found that)

This can be something ISRO might look in to. they can authorize some company to do it for them with a share in the profit. its a win win. isro will make some money out of it plus all the publicity it will give to the program. it will also bring sense of pride among the indians who own it as well as it will garner support for our program nationwide.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 14 Nov 2008 01:11

prao wrote:

Indeed, plastic models of Indian rockets was what I was looking for when I came across the paper models. You'd think (hope?) that there might be some enterprising company that would try to leverage the pride among Indians to build and sell models of Indian rockets and satellites but I could find nothing There's a model of the HF-24 Marut available from an East European manufacturer though if I remember right (it's been a while since I found that)

http://cgi.ebay.com/MK-1-GSLV-ISRO-Indi ... dZViewItem

prao · Post by **prao** » 14 Nov 2008 01:16

vdutta wrote:
prao wrote:

Indeed, plastic models of Indian rockets was what I was looking for when I came across the paper models. You'd think (hope?) that there might be some enterprising company that would try to leverage the pride among Indians to build and sell models of Indian rockets and satellites but I could find nothing There's a model of the HF-24 Marut available from an East European manufacturer though if I remember right (it's been a while since I found that)
http://cgi.ebay.com/MK-1-GSLV-ISRO-Indi ... dZViewItem

Thank you for the link vdutta, the model is wood, hand-carved and painted and beautiful but at almost $180 (incl. shipping)

expensive too!

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 14 Nov 2008 01:29

No problem man. you can call me Vishnu.
i too feel that the model is over priced.
i would rather wait for a run-of-the-mill model rather than hand crafted one

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 14 Nov 2008 04:54

That is part of the babu mentality of even forward looking organizations like ISRO. If it was some Amirkhan org like NASA they'd have new models (both prebuilt and kits) out in a jiffy available online and in shops....this funda hasn't caught on in India yet at the right levels. I remember years earlier when I would visit the Palam AF museum regularly (the DTC route 764 bus ride sure used to be bumpy esp. if you missed the AF station stop and juddered on to Palam Gaon

) they used to have a gift shop but the range and quality of the the models was pretty shoddy....just imagine the disappoinment of many a youngster who after spending an hour or 2 (or in my case 4 or 6) with the real warbirds is all excited and inspired and wants to take a piece of it home but can only find junk in the gift shop!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 14 Nov 2008 18:25

Dunno, if this was posted already... Bhuvan prototype to be launched. India's version of Google Earth.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 15 Nov 2008 02:10

China fears India-Japan space alliance
By Peter J Brown
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JK12Df02.html

I thought it was a very interesting article about both JAXA and ISRO programs and capabilities. It talks about how the common misconception of people around the world that the Chinese program is so superior merely because they have a manned program going when in fact they are still quite rudimentary. It also talks about how the Chinese space program is more about projecting the Chinese image of "beating the USA" rather than science.

I personally still think that the Japanese space agency (JAXA) is by leaps and bounds far superior to both ISRO and the Chinese space agency simply because the kind of missions and instruments their programs have in space are phenomenal. For example, their current big exploratory mission (the Hayabusa probe) is a probe that is bringing back a sample of asteroid soil nearly a 2.5 AU's away using Ion engines. The capsule now is on its return trip to Earth. No song and dance about that one in the news media compared to a probe to the moon.

edit: Just saw the same article in the China military watch thread.

Hariprasad · Post by **Hariprasad** » 15 Nov 2008 20:04

Any updates on ISRO RLV TD

p.s Also why ISRO scientists in mission control have white suits?

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 16 Nov 2008 04:22

What would be the increase in LEO and GTO payloads for the PSLV if-

1] Agni-3 based solid strapon motors were used instead of the Agni-1 based strapons. (over 1MN compared to 650 kN)

2] These strapons had more segments for a burn time of 80-90s.

3] The Vikas engine (2nd stage) had enough fuel for a 240-300 second burn? (enough to put it in LEO orbit)

4] Replace 3rd and 4th stage with cryogenic stage (manned) or a nuclear reactor powered (Topaz type) ion/ VASIMIR engine (unmanned probes)?

Any ideas?

I am asking this question because these improvements are inexpensive compared to launching a GSLV Mk3. I was thinking that if we could put 6-7tons in LEO and say 2.5 tons in GTO. It would be possible to lauch probes to mars, venus, and anywhere else in the solar system. Most US probes to the outer planets weigh less than 1 ton dry weight.

Something to consider..

And you could also put a soyuz type orbiter (6.8 tons) or an upgraded gemini (4-5 tons) in orbit.

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 16 Nov 2008 04:23

A question-

Why can the GSLV lift only 5 tons to LEO when it uses

1st stage - 4 viking engines (2.7 MN) + SRB (4.3 MN)
2nd stage - 1 viking engine (0.7 MN)
3rd stage - 1 Cryogenic engine (75 kN)

Compared to the Basic Ariane 4 which could also lift 5 tons to LEO

1st stage - 4 viking engines (2.7 MN)
2nd stage - 1 viking engine (0.7 MN)
3rd stage - 1 Cryogenic engine (65 kN)

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 16 Nov 2008 04:35

equatorial location of french guyana.

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 16 Nov 2008 05:02

What about the Soyuz lauch Vehicle-

1st stage 4 * 1MN (4MN)
2nd stage 1MN
3rd stage 300 kN

Capacity to LEO ~ 7 tons

UPrabhu · Post by **UPrabhu** » 16 Nov 2008 05:54

In GSLV, how difficult it is to optimize the system by making the core stage liquid engines powered by 4 Vikas + augmented by SRBs on the side. In current configuration it has to drag almost 27tonnes of spent core stage for some 40-45+ seconds till liquid strap-ons burn up.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Nov 2008 06:45

HEC to manufacture satellite launch pedestal for ISRO

disha · Post by **disha** » 16 Nov 2008 06:46

UPrabhu wrote:In GSLV, how difficult it is to optimize the system by making the core stage liquid engines powered by 4 Vikas + augmented by SRBs on the side. In current configuration it has to drag almost 27tonnes of spent core stage for some 40-45+ seconds till liquid strap-ons burn up.

There are safety considerations as well, since you cannot shut down SRBs after they are ignited. So you may want to design it such a way that you ignite the SRB only when all other systems are go. That is actually a sophisticated design and the design worked during the maiden launch of GSLV.

Also, evan after the stage propellent is spent, there is still some momentum that needs to be extracted. So all stage separation take that into account.

Further stage separations involve shifting of Center of pressures and Center of Gravity. That needs to be taken into account as well. A premature stage separation may result in center of pressure moving ahead of center of gravity causing undue load on attitude control. All that considerations go into the design of the GSLV. Such design considerations made PSLV the workhorse and GSLV can be a similar workhorse - currently the issues with GSLV are not design but manufacturing control.

Also you do not want a stage separation that may result in an SRB falling in a populated area [or even in unpopulated forests lest it may start a fire

]

So it is not just raw power or optimization of power, if that was the case, Soviet N1 would have been a very successful rocket!!! And this is another area where ISRO is miles ahead of China.