Indian Space Program Discussion

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 18 Nov 2008 02:30

Gerard wrote:The Indians have landed

Chandrayaan's success has stoked India's ego.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 18 Nov 2008 04:36

Slipping satellite, rocket deadlines affect India’s space astronomy

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 18 Nov 2008 04:57

The Arab Probe

One is supposed to cheerfully welcome any scientific or technological advancement achieved by a close or remote nation.... Yet, I must admit that I was overtaken by frustration and envy when the news agencies circulated the story of the Indian probe.

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 18 Nov 2008 05:31

Happy to oblige

Titan 34D SRBs

Stage0: 2 x Titan UA1206.
Gross Mass: 251,427 kg.
Empty Mass: 40,827 kg.
Mass Fraction 0.83
Thrust (vac): 6,226 kN.
Isp (Vac): 265 sec. Burn time: 114 sec.

GSLV Mk3 SRBs

Stage0: 2 x GSLV-3 S200.
Gross Mass: 2400,000 kg (554,301 lb).
Empty Mass: 40,000 kg.
Mass Fraction 0.83 (S125 and S139 have a mass fraction of 0.82)
Thrust (vac): 7698 kN.
Isp (Vac): 269 sec. Burn time: 106-108 seconds. (based on S125 and S139)

Verdict for SRBs- Essentially equivalent. The S200 probably uses more optimized solid propellants mixtures.

Titan 34D -Core Stage

Stage1: 1 x Titan 3A-1.
Gross Mass: 116,573 kg.
Empty Mass: 5,443 kg.
Mass Fraction 0.95 (someone has to verify this- looks too high)
Motor: 2 x LR87-11.
Total Thrust (vac): 2,339 kN.
Isp: 302 sec.
Burn time: 147 sec.
Propellants: N2O4/Aerozine-50.

GSLV Mk3 - Core stage

Stage1: 1 x GSLV Mk3.
Gross Mass: 119,000 kg.
Empty Mass: 9,000 kg. [based on Ariane 4 first stage data]
Mass Fraction: 0.92
Motor: 2 x Vikas ??.
Total Thrust (vac): 1,600 kN.
Isp: 300 sec.
Burn time: 220-230 seconds. One vikas engine in the GSLV and PSLV uses 40 tons of fuel for a 160 second burn. The Mk3 allots 55 tons per engine.
Propellants: UDMH+N2O4.

Verdict for Cores Stage- Functionally equivalent. Improvements in fuel capacity or reduction in weight is doable.

Centaur IIIA

Gross Mass: 18,710 kg.
Empty Mass: 1,905 kg.
Mass Fraction: 0.89
Motor: 1 x RL-10A-4-1.
Thrust (vac): 99.155 kN.
Isp: 451 sec.
Burn time: 738 sec.
Propellants: Lox/LH2.

25 Ton Cryogenic Stage- GSLV-3
Gross Mass: 30,000 kg.
Empty Mass: 5,000 kg.
Mass Fraction: 0.83 [fuel capacity could be easily improved]
Motor: 1 x ICE.
Thrust (vac): 200 kN.
Isp: 450 sec.
Burn time: 720 sec.
Propellants: Lox/LH2.

Verdict for Cryogenic Stage- The Indigenous cryogenic engine is essentially equivalent to 2 Centaur III upper stages.

Final Analysis - The GSLV Mk3 will very likely exceed the capacity of Titan 3 lauchers. It is likely to have a LEO capacity of greater than 15 tons. The GTO capacity has to at least 6 tons, more likely 8 tons and thus it could put 4 tons satellites in GEO.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 18 Nov 2008 07:19

Sridhar Garu and Gerad Garu (Esq) thanks.

Gerad >> I thought so too about strategic implications but it does not completely explain.

If you see initially Prithvi Agni had Liquid fuels but not the kerosene ( as it because ministry of civil supplies would not supply Kerosene with out ration card for ISRO?

, remember Kerosene was always subsidized below market price for popular reaons)

Is it not worth having another track of K based space launchers in parallel? Is the program past that point and will give only diminishing results?

Why not induce pvt sector to build launchers in that area (K route)?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Nov 2008 08:33

India on the ISS

by Taylor Dinerman
Monday, November 17, 2008

As the International Space Station (ISS) nears completion, the partnership that built it needs to expand. It is not just a question of new resources, though of course spreading the expense amongst a wider number of partners would lead to small reductions in the operating costs paid for by the current partners. There are, however, two other, more important reasons: ideas and politics.

The current partners—the US, Russia, ESA, Canada, and Japan—may still be engaged in finding ways to use the “World Class Laboratory” they have built, but they are still doing so within the limits and using the procedures they have established over many years. It has been hard just to build the station, and this effort has distracted the leaders of these government space agencies from preparing to utilize the facility to the fullest extent possible.
It has been hard just to build the station, and this effort has distracted the leaders of these government space agencies from preparing to utilize the facility to the fullest extent possible.

It has been natural for those involved in the project to concentrate on the task at hand and not to get distracted by plans and preparations that can only bear fruit if the job is completed. Now, however, the time has come to begin to change the focus and to seek ways to get the maximum return on the investment that has been made. The US Congress’s decision to designate the ISS as a national laboratory is a step in this direction.

The partnership now needs new sources of ideas and new people who will bring a new perspective to the program. Obviously China and India are the first candidates for membership. China seems to be holding its cards close to its vest, and the continuing lack of real transparency in their program will make it hard for them to join up any time soon. India, on the other hand, has opened itself to international cooperation and has proven itself a reliable and talented partner.

India’s Chandrayaan-1 moon mission has not only been a scientific and technological success, but it has been an international political winner. By incorporating instruments from Europe and the US as well as their own ones, and doing so in an open way, the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) has proven itself to be, without question, one of the world’s top space agencies.

ISRO wants to follow up this mission with another Moon mission and then a Mars mission. More to the point, ISRO has begun studying a two-person capsule that could put India in the same league with Russia, the US, and China: nations that are able to launch humans into orbit. For the moment, the only reasonable destination for such a spacecraft is the ISS.

India has not only proved itself with Chandrayaan, it has also made a critically important step towards a truly civil space program, by setting up a military space command. This separation puts India well within international norms and indicates that the government in New Dehli wants to make it fairly easy for ISRO to join international space projects, such as the ISS. By itself, this will not solve the problems with the transfer of sensitive dual-use technology, but it shows that India is ready to take those concerns into consideration. Of course, life would be easier for everyone if the US were able to seriously reform export control regulations.

One obstacle to India’s joining the ISS is lack of money. This is what killed Brazil’s membership and preliminary talks with India should be careful to insure that ISRO’s commitments are compatible with India’s overall budgetary policy. It spite of its limited funds, ISRO has already taken steps along the path to developing its own system for manned spaceflight.

In January 2007 they launched their Space Capsule Recovery Experiment on one of their Polar Satellite Launch Vehicles (PSLV). The experiment stayed in orbit for 12 days and was recovered by the Indian Coast Guard and Indian Navy in the Bay of Bengal. Among other things this showed that ISRO has the capability to design and build workable ablative heat shields that could be used for manned capsules. No one really knows how long it will take them to build their new capsule, but it will be interesting to watch the process they use to human-rate the Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV) they plan to use.
India has earned the right to be considered a full-fledged spacefaring nation. Inviting them to be a full partner on the ISS will simply make clear what everyone in the space industry already knows.

What makes sense for the ISS partnership in the short term is to offer India full control of an experimental rack. The agreement with Japan stipulates that a number of the racks in the Kibo module will be controlled by NASA. Since the US has been cutting back on some of the science work it once planned to do on the ISS, it would be logical to offer this space to India, free of charge. ISRO could then take charge of outfitting the rack with experiments devised by Indian scientists.

At some point India could begin to fly its own astronauts to the station, either on one of the last Shuttle flights or with the Russians. They have not had anyone in orbit since Rakesh Sharma flew to the Salyut 7 station in 1984. It’s about time that an Indian citizen returned to space.

India has earned the right to be considered a full-fledged spacefaring nation. Inviting them to be a full partner on the ISS will simply make clear what everyone in the space industry already knows. It would also be a nice way for President Obama to begin his administration’s relationship with the world’s most populous democracy.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 18 Nov 2008 10:34

Chandrayaan-II cleared by govt, to be in orbit by 2011-12
17 Nov 2008, 2142 hrs IST, PTI

COIMBATORE: Even as India's maiden lunar probe
circles the moon, the Centre has given its approval for Chandrayaan-II and it would be in orbit by 2012.

ISRO has started necessary research workfor the next mission for which the Centre has sanctioned necessary funds, Chandrayaan-I Project Director Mylswamy Annadurai told reporters. The second mission would be a fully indigenous one, he said.

Chandrayan-I is the best thing to happen to Indian space research and is designed to study the water availability and fertile standards of moon, he said.

The moon mission has proved that India is on par with any other nation which ventured to the earth's satellite, he said.

Stating that the pictures being received from moon were giving very valuable inputs, he said steps are being made to get continuous pictures by making some technical corrections.

Earlier, the Scientist was felicitated by the public at different places in Coimbatore district for the successful launch of the country's moon mission.

Accepting the felicitations, Annadurai exhorted the students to shelve their foreign dreams as opportunities were available within India.

The days of foreign students coming to India in pursuit of research works and higher studies were not far away, he said.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/New ... 724596.cms

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 18 Nov 2008 10:41

Nitesh wrote:Chandrayaan-II cleared by govt, to be in orbit by 2011-12
17 Nov 2008, 2142 hrs IST, PTI

COIMBATORE: Even as India's maiden lunar probe
circles the moon, the Centre has given its approval for Chandrayaan-II and it would be in orbit by 2012.

ISRO has started necessary research workfor the next mission for which the Centre has sanctioned necessary funds, Chandrayaan-I Project Director Mylswamy Annadurai told reporters. The second mission would be a fully indigenous one , he said.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/New ... 724596.cms

Change of plans or a DDM interpretation?

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 18 Nov 2008 10:50

prashanth wrote:II_cleared_by_govt_to_be_in_orbit_by_2011-12/articleshow/3724596.cms

Change of plans or a DDM interpretation?[/quote]
Changing of rover from russian to indian?

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 18 Nov 2008 11:31

Russians have prior experience with their Lunokhod rovers.

Shelving of the Indian rover in favour of the Russian rover could be an exclusive arrangement and could be due to strategic considerations i.e. preventing Russia from assisting other countries with similar aspirations until we get there first.

May also be about reducing mission risk.

UPrabhu · Post by **UPrabhu** » 18 Nov 2008 11:33

Nitesh wrote:
prashanth wrote:II_cleared_by_govt_to_be_in_orbit_by_2011-12/articleshow/3724596.cms

Change of plans or a DDM interpretation?

Changing of rover from russian to indian?[/quote]

I hope this is true. Before you know it, few months before launch the russians might ask for additional funds to complete the lander... time to learn from Adm. Gorky.

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 18 Nov 2008 11:40

wrong thread.

Saral · Post by **Saral** » 18 Nov 2008 20:06

Harrison Schmitt, geologist/astronaut, and former NASA advisory council chair, has resigned from The Planetary Society. Main Reason: Return to the Moon as the most natural path to Mars which he favors is not in style.

Some excerpts from the resignation letter:
--
This strategy would leave deep space activities, exploration and resources to others, i.e., China, India, maybe Russia, for the indefinite future. I believe that would be major step in initiating the decline of America's global influence for freedom and the improvement the human condition.

Returning to the Moon further enables, in a much more timely fashion and would a Mars initiative, the capability to do something about diverting an asteroid on a collision course with the Earth. We had this capability once, but lost it when the Saturn V assembly line was shut down in the early 1970s.
---

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=29813

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Nov 2008 07:25

ISRO Chief Dr. Madhavan Nair's interview - Businessline

What does the success of Chandrayaan-1 mean to ISRO and the country?

It’s a turning point for ISRO. Of course, in the last few years we have seen very unique ones - the space capsule recovery experiment; the launching of 10 (small) satellites at a stretch; and now Chandrayaan-1. All this shows the maturity of our technology.

I think we have established (the fact) that our systems are globally competitive and we will be able to get a really good share of the global market, whether it is satellite building or launch vehicles.

We are also in the process of formulating the next phase of space vision for 2025. That is unfolding. We have been working on it for almost a year now.

The important elements in that are the human space flight, the recoverable and reusable launch system; hyperspectral (64-colour) imaging, microwave imaging and wide-band communication system. So this formulation should find better support from all quarters in the light of Chandrayaan-1. In addition, we have the responsibility of meeting day-to-day national needs.

Do you expect other agencies to increasingly seek to partner with ISRO? Or a smoother path to getting technologies that you need quickly?

Other space agencies are appreciative of a difficult feat achieved. But basically international cooperation will remain on space exploration and space science.

On the technology side, I’m afraid even today, competition is very stiff.

I don’t think we will get much benefit out of collaboration on that front. But we may be able to exchange our products and many sub-systems needed for satellites which could be sold in the international market. Similarly, we also would be looking at buying some things in the international market based on the strength of technology and cost-competitiveness.

Has it been easy to find suitable vendors?

People already working for us have caught on with space quality. But if you ask me about the growth rate of the aerospace industry, it has not been as much as what we would have liked it to be. Big players like HAL, L&T, MTAR and Godrej have invested and are doing a major part our work. But to take on major space systems, perhaps other than HAL, the rest have not matured into that level of technology. But we will keep up the dialogue and enthuse them to take up more and more work load.

How is the human mission plan progressing? Have you given a name to the Indian in space?

As for a name, we are going to declare this as a national competition for schools and select an appropriate name from among those entries.

The Space Commission has cleared the human mission and it’s being submitted to the Government. It is a multi-disciplinary task. We have to create simulation facilities first and then open up other disciplines. We are in dialogue with the Institute of Aviation Medicine (under the Ministry of Defence). It selects fighter pilots (- a process which has) so many elements common with training astronauts also. We will make use of their expertise. That is the reason for our selecting Bangalore as the site for the astronaut training centre.

Not only the physiology, psychological aspects also come into picture for meeting the environment in space.

What is the status of your plan to send an orbiter to Mars?

We already have a projection for the Mars mission in the next five-year plan. We are in the process of selecting the scientific experiments and a formal proposal will follow. If everything goes all right, we should have that mission in 4-5 years.

Many non-resident Indian scientists are said to have contacted you after Chandrayaan-1.

I have not received a single request like that from anybody. I have come across many people who work in the same areas (overseas) but frankly, I don’t think they anywhere match the quality, knowledge base or the type of overall specialisation that we now have. Of course, if some bright ones do turn up, we would welcome them.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 19 Nov 2008 14:56

Indian space agency Isro to roll out a rival to Google Earth

Emboldened by its first mission to the Moon, India is to take on a target closer to Earth: Google.

The Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro), which is based in Bangalore, the Silicon Valley of the sub-continent, will roll-out a rival to Google Earth, the hugely popular online satellite imagery service, by the end of the month.

The project, dubbed Bhuvan (Sanskrit for Earth), will allow users to zoom into areas as small as 10 metres wide, compared to the 200 metre wide zoom limit on Google Earth.

It comes as India redoubles its efforts to reap profits from its 45-year-old space programme, long criticised as a drain on a country where 700 million people live on $2 (£1) a day or less. It also follows in the slipstream of the country's first Moon probe, Chandrayaan-1, which reached the lunar surface successfully on Friday.

Bhuvan will use a network of satellites to create a high-resolution, bird's-eye view of India – and later, possibly, the rest of the world – that will be accessible at no cost online and will compete with Google Earth. If a pilot version passes muster, Bhuvan will be fully operational by the spring. There are also plans to incorporate a global positioning system (GPS) into the online tool.

The data gleaned by the state-sponsored project will be available to the Indian Civil Service to help with urban planning, traffic management and water and crop monitoring. G Madhavan Nair, the Isro chairman, said: "This will not be a mere browser, but the mechanism for providing satellite images and thematic maps for developmental planning."

There could also be commercial spin-offs. Experts say that Google Earth is being built as a platform for advertising that could be worth billions, and that Bhuvan will also address one of the issues taxing the web's biggest companies: how to engage users amid the mass of digital detritus that has accumulated on the internet.

Alex Burmaster, of Nielsen, the web analysts, said: "The amount of time that people spend online is reaching a plateau and websites are battling furiously for attention. Anything that relates to where a person is, saves a user time, and makes the web more relevant — especially geographically — is big news."

Isro officials say Bhuvan will provide images of far greater resolution than are currently available online — particularly of the sub-continent, a region where large areas remain virtually unmapped.

There are plans to charge fees for the most detailed information.

The agency intends to refresh its images every year — a feature that would give it an edge over its biggest rival and help keep track of the frenetic pace at which Indian cities are growing. A recent report by Gartner, the technology analysts, gave warning of the risk of relying on the "outdated information" used by Google Earth, which is now four years old and has been downloaded some 400 million times.

About 2.5 million people used Google Earth in Britain last month, according to Neilsen, making it the web's seventh most popular application behind tools such as Apple's iTunes (fourth with 5.7 million users) and Windows Live Messenger (No1 with 14.8 million).

Indian scientists will be mindful, however, that theirs is not the first country to take on the might of Google. In 2005, a French plan to create a Eurocentric search engine to defend against the "Anglo-American domination of the net", part of a €2 billion (£1.7 billion) raft of technological grand projets, fizzled without trace. Undeterred, a year later France unveiled Géoportail, its own answer to Google Earth.

At the time, Jacques Chirac, then the President of France, said: "We're engaged in a global competition for technological supremacy . . . It's time to go on the offensive." Bloggers quickly labelled the venture "another mind-numbingly stupid boondoggle".

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 19 Nov 2008 20:40

"Spot beam" satellite being developed for rural net connectivity: ISRO news.

India is developing an unconventional satellite which will be designed to provide fast-track internet connectivity to rural masses and allow them to access advice on various aspects of agriculture, according to chairman of Indian Space Research Organisation, G Madhavan Nair.

"You know, if you take the country, even today more than 30,000 villages don't have proper connectivity. (With) conventional type of satellites, we cannot meet that requirement", he said. "So, we have to go for spot beams, high bandwidth type of capacity to be built up. Only that can make things happen", he said.

Aimed primarily at rural areas, the new INSAT-class, three tonne satellite, will not have an all-India beam, but spot beams instead which would cover different parts of the country. These would be controlled by a hub, which would be connected to the national network.

As for the satellite's applications, Nair, who is also secretary, department of Space, said "communication has to be established. Then, agricultural advice which needs to be given to farmers in various aspects...that would be provided through that (the satellite)".

The spacecraft would be launched by European space consortium, Arianespace, within two years, he added.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 21 Nov 2008 06:48

Raj wrote: Saturn V , the "moon rocket" had
Payload to LEO 118,000 kg (260,000 lb)
Payload to
Lunar vicinity 47,000 kg (100,000 lb)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V_(rocket)

I think we need to approach these figures if we want to go other planets.

The main reason why we limit ourselves (i.e. "Deny" our dreams) for Lunar landings or interplanetory missions is the context of the larger goals of the ISRO, which is to bring "space" to the aaam aadmi and have a successful commercial side bijjiness.

So while we can go for something like Saturn V and no doubt achieve it in some time, we would need to think of commercial aspect of the developments as well (i.e. would ISRO be able to leverage it for commercial launches as a humongous payload seems to be a risky overkill for most commercial launches).

And in that sense, reusable launch vehicles are a perfect starting point. We can have a LEO launch assembly for a larger launcher using multiple RLV launches and then use it to shoot for the moon. This is way economical and "commercializable" instead of a single shot with a humongous LEO/Transfer orbit capacity. This is the path that I see ISRO taking, and its the most logical one, if we dont slip schedules like the LCA. Multiple RLV launches + LEO launcher assembly also helps to hedge the risk of failure. Imagine a Saturn V blowing up with all the stuff in it.... its hard to imagine the devastation.

everything above is IMVVVVVHO

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 21 Nov 2008 10:04

While I am at it: Has anyone heard any (open/closed source) updates on RLV-TD????

It was supposed to use a Solid Booster initially and Glide back for the first two flights. In the third one it was supposed to breathe in and liquify air.

The SRE-1 was a pre-run to RLV-TD.

If anyone knows any andhar ka mamla or open source news of RLV dev. Please IM/Email/Message me.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 21 Nov 2008 10:39

Which organisation will develop the moon rover if Russians are kicked out? Any details of intruments onboard?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 21 Nov 2008 10:39

Which organisation will develop the moon rover if Russians are kicked out? Any details of intruments onboard?

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 21 Nov 2008 11:16

jamwal wrote:Which organisation will develop the moon rover if Russians are kicked out? Any details of intruments onboard?

The IIT team was doing it before they were kicked out by the Russians. I dont know if they were allowed back after the russians did a Gorshkov on the Rover

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 21 Nov 2008 11:23

The IIT team was doing it before they were kicked out by the Russians. I dont know if they were allowed back after the russians did a Gorshkov on the Rov

Iam sure we can do it on our own -after all a lunar rover is but a 4 wheel drive battery operated vehicle with robotic arms and very light weight construction and foldable wheels and solar array

But again it has been done - and proven why re invent the wheel?

Raja · Post by **Raja** » 21 Nov 2008 13:06

Shankar wrote:
But again it has been done - and proven why re invent the wheel?

It is not nearly that simple and the future of space exploration will unveil many advances in robotic exploration. So it is a complete cop out to say "why reinvent the wheel" because this is a tech that is going to be a must for any serious space exploration.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Nov 2008 14:41

jamwal wrote:Which organisation will develop the moon rover if Russians are kicked out? Any details of intruments onboard?

which DRDO lab created the robot bomb disposal unit ? might be the same lab.

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 21 Nov 2008 16:49

The third CY could use a fully local lander and rover. Remember for CY-2 we are using a Russian lander, and then the rover will be a JV between us and Russians. Some valuable lessons can be learn't and we can take it from there.

The rover is designed for a life of about 30 days. Hopefully it lasts more and goes on work for many months like those NASA beauties now in hibernation. Top class robotics.

Where co-operation is available we should be willing to exploit it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Nov 2008 17:20

Russia is nowhere in modern manufacturing robotics. Its probably japan and germany who are the world leaders. and in battery techs we all know who leads in fuel cells and hybrid cars - it aint Russia.

who do we need a 60s era Lunokhod when we can form a JV with japanese vendor and create a HelloKitty chandrama-rover.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 21 Nov 2008 17:27

Anabhaya wrote:Where co-operation is available we should be willing to exploit it.

Not at all. The is an unmanned mission. So the cost of failure is not that high. India should only send its own rover no matter how simple compared to russkie or any other nation's rovers. All the money we spend should contribute to our learning curve, our manufacturing, our pool of scientific manpower, advertisement of our capabilities.

One of the outcomes of such missions is the perception improvement that a nation earns. It helps the perception of our products for exports and is thus in part an advertisement of India's abilities. Using foreign rover would greatly dilute our bragging rights. Haven't you seen media reports in west where it is claimed that India sent CY to the moon with international "help" ? Such headlines when all their probes have nothing to do with putting CY in moon's orbit. That itself dilutes our claims in the minds of global laymen not bothered about checking details and we are seen as power that rose with help of crutches. For very critical technologies involving huge expenditures and long development times, the situation is different and country can cut the journey short through collaboration. But rover isn't exactly that.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Nov 2008 22:54

question for the endo-atmospheric gurus.

the payload section of most SLVs are fat and blunt nosed to accomodate
the increasingly larger sats

we have all seen the M51 and Trident SLBM videos

hence to reduce atmospheric drag and attain higher 1st and 2nd stage
speed why is not a aerospike topped by a round plate used by SLVs ?

we could even deploy a grid of aerospikes permanently on the nosecone
to save interior penetration.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Nov 2008 22:59

Vipul wrote:"Spot beam" satellite being developed for rural net connectivity: ISRO news.

on the parallel, DRDO should also develop space based ABMs that kills the BMs in mid-course itself., perhaps like a space based MLRS housing a dozen or two Akash sized ABMs. It requires less fuel to impact in mid-course. And, being space based, ISRO-DRDO combines would have already be in orbit, with a life span of at least 10 years.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 21 Nov 2008 23:30

Arya Sumantra wrote:
Anabhaya wrote:Where co-operation is available we should be willing to exploit it.
Not at all. The is an unmanned mission. So the cost of failure is not that high. India should only send its own rover no matter how simple compared to russkie or any other nation's rovers. All the money we spend should contribute to our learning curve, our manufacturing, our pool of scientific manpower, advertisement of our capabilities.

One of the outcomes of such missions is the perception improvement that a nation earns. It helps the perception of our products for exports and is thus in part an advertisement of India's abilities. Using foreign rover would greatly dilute our bragging rights. Haven't you seen media reports in west where it is claimed that India sent CY to the moon with international "help" ? Such headlines when all their probes have nothing to do with putting CY in moon's orbit. That itself dilutes our claims in the minds of global laymen not bothered about checking details and we are seen as power that rose with help of crutches. For very critical technologies involving huge expenditures and long development times, the situation is different and country can cut the journey short through collaboration. But rover isn't exactly that.

here are the things we need to "invent"

1) Tires which work in vacuum and also do not get damaged in the Lunar Surface.
2) Robots that can handle Lunar thermal extremes.

I have a completely different idea here is my "Rover Doctrine":
The lander and rover should contain three parts
1) A stationary and large area high efficiency solar cell panel using nano-antenna array lets call this power station. This station should be able to be deconstructed, "compacted" and reconstructed when needed.
2) A mobile robot that can do mechanical assembly (for future moon.mars base). It should be able to do heavy lifting. It should have an efficient power storage mechanism that can charge from the station. A way to move around with minimal contact on the Lunar Surface (or have tank like motor system) which would give a long life. If this robot can be compacted to form a ship that carries the rest of the stuff (station and labs) and uses ION engines to move from one end of the moon then it would be awesome for exploration and mining.
3) One or more laboratories that do analysis, This can either be a set of small labs that can be spread around by the robot and communicate like a sensor network or it can be one big huge lab so that a lot of common requirements like water and power can be shared among them.

The advantage of the above is that it will help us for the future base building on the moon/mars. Another advantage if the robot is able to deconstruct/compact the labs and the power station it can move long distances and set camp somewhere far away. That can increase mission area and pave way for remote explorations/mining as i mentioned before.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 22 Nov 2008 14:31

lakshmikanth wrote:here are the things we need to "invent"

1) Tires which work in vacuum and also do not get damaged in the Lunar Surface.

Tubeless tyres for SUV already exist. Instead of tyres, a spider-like rover with legs wouldn't be bad either. the legs could double up as pneumatic arms of an earth mover for digging up small soil samples.

lakshmikanth wrote:2) Robots that can handle Lunar thermal extremes.

Mil-spec electronics meeting India's weather extremes already exist. Need to improve reliability in a wider range -233C(night) to +123C(during day on moon).

BTW, a nice video ESA video on Sriharikota launch base
[youtube]4Gv6kXZjJm8&feature=related[/youtube]

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 23 Nov 2008 14:28

You know.. we could easily make a better version of this rover

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Pathfinder

or this one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Explo ... er_Mission

There is no shame in copying and improving on a good idea. We should not be in the business of reinventing the wheel every time.

I personally would prefer this one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Science_Laboratory

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 23 Nov 2008 15:54

ss_roy wrote:I personally would prefer this one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Science_Laboratory

It has no solar panels. It is instead powered by RTG(Radioisotope thermoelectric generator). Wonder if we have developed that technology. The present day RTGs are safe enough that in case the launch fails the RTG remains intact and does not spill radioactivity into the ocean where it falls along with the rocket debris.

BTW why should a rover always have wheels? What's wrong with a spider legged rover? Isn't it an easier way to move on an uneven terrain?

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 23 Nov 2008 16:20

RTGs require Plutonium 238- an isotope made from waste products in light water reactors. You can use other isotopes like Strontium 90, but Pu238 is the best isotope.

The technology to make them is very well understood. We could always get a couple from the russians, if we do not want to build our own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisoto ... _generator

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Nov 2008 16:26

Singha wrote:hence to reduce atmospheric drag and attain higher 1st and 2nd stage
speed why is not a aerospike topped by a round plate used by SLVs ?

See this excerpt from the Cox report
Satellite Launches in the PRC: Hughes

The design of a fairing is governed by a myriad of factors including its weight, contribution to overall vehicle drag, structural strength, cost, and the size and shape of satellites it is to enclose. The relationship between fairing shape and just two of these factors weight and drag for a class of fairings of simple geometrical shape is shown above. The question of whether minimum weight or minimum drag should be given greater emphasis depends on the details of the launch. If the fairing can be dropped early in the flight, low drag is more important. If satellite payload protection is needed through a large part of the launch trajectory, then the weight of the fairing becomes more significant in launch performance.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 23 Nov 2008 22:30

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ISRO ... latestnews

ISRO plans manned space mission ahead of manned moon mission
23 Nov 2008, 2023 hrs IST, PTI

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: With the success of Chandrayaan-1, the country's first moon mission, the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) is planning a manned space mission as a first step to manned moon mission.

"Sending man to moon is a very complicated mission. So, as a first step, we plan to develop an Indian spacecraft that will take astronauts across the earth and bring them back," ISRO Chairman G Madhavan Nair said delivering a lecture on 'India's Recent Space Achievements' here on Sunday.

The government approval for the mission was yet to be received and ISRO was planning the programme by 2015, Nair said.

ISRO was also in the process of developing technologies for a manned moon mission and it would take more than six to seven years to develop those technologies, he said adding our effort is to achieve the milestone by the time the proposed next manned moon mission of USA and China materialise in 2020".

On the next Space programme of ISRO, Nair said government has accorded sanction for the Chandrayaan-II mission that would be launched in 2012. The work on Chandrayaan-II had started, he said. Under the programme, a robotic lunar rover would smooth land on the moon and conduct experiments, he said.

'Adithya', was the another space programme in the pipeline, he said. Under this programme, effort would be made to study the Solar System by launching a satellite and the same would be stationed within the earth orbit, he said.

"There was no plan to send any satellite to Sun," he said referring to media reports that ISRO was planning a Sun Mission.

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 23 Nov 2008 23:27

When I look at the current state of the Indian Space Program, a few aspects of the average indian psyche bother me-

Warning- this is somewhat of a rant (but with clear suggestions about solutions)

1] Most indians accept being defined by others. Our best sources of news about indians and indian history in general are outsiders, not ourselves. Letting this continue will have some dire long-term consequences.

ISRO could have created a very decent outreach program that explains the nature of their mission, what they hope to achieve, its significance and why spending money on such spacecraft is important. Instead they have become defensive and stuck to old narratives. They could have made it very clear that since no great human advance was ever planned, trying to achieve something interesting by itself opens doors that we cannot foresee. Ex- No one discovered the semiconducter effect for use in computer chips and Intergated Circuits were originally developed for ICBMs. CT scans were originally developed to look inside assembled nuclear weapons and missiles. Superconductivity was not discovered to make better NMR magnets.

The true significance of this mission was developing and modifying existing technology to do something interesting, that may have no short term monetary value- but which may eventually lead us down doors we never knew about. They could have been better representatives of the capacity of that mission vs previous missions. They could have been forceful and told foreign and leftist domestic reporters who asked about costs to shut up- since the indian space program is not funded with foreign aid. They could have put forth concept that space programs are more efficient at creating primary and secondary jobs than any other government run employment program.

2] Indians tend to dream small and are afraid of failure. Why?? Have you ever read the long list of failures by Russia and USA when they were trying to develop technology? Why are Indians afraid of failure? Failure is a bad thing only if we do not learn from it. We could have used a GSLV type launcher right for CY-1. What were we afraid of? The rest of the world and most indians (lacking self confidence) expect ISRO to screw up. ISRO should hire/ promote forceful advocates of their missions to debate and demolish the leftist idiots that still dominate our media. There is no need to be defensive, when you can question their lack of knowledge about history, lack of technical understanding and the source of their views on India.

The CY-2 rover is supposed to have solar power.. why not RTGs or portable nuclear reactors? Who is stopping them, why are geriatric indian politicians concerned about western criticism. The west is dying out and losing relevance. We can blame our history, but 3 generations have been born since independence. The first 20-30 years after independence were influenced by our history, after that - it was our choice.

Is designing a human orbiter so hard? Really? Yes, there will be initial failures and setbacks- but so what?

3] Why are Indians so concerned about how others perceive them? I am not saying that we should ignore all criticism, just that we should understand why someone is saying, what they are saying.

Do you think that the west, japan or china will treat you as equals unless you break their skulls and jam the proverbial foot up their behind? No nation/race accepts changes in reality that hurt their self-image unless reality is beaten into them. Do you think that flowery words, MOUs and committees are going to cut it? It is also worthwhile to note that the west and japan are in terminal decline (hubris, complacency and adverse demographic trends). If an indian made RTG or nuclear reactor crashes into australia or new zealand, should indians care? Those people see you as less than human anyway.

4] Why do we starve both necessary and innovative projects of money? No country in the world has ever created new jobs without spending more than it could "afford". The best outcomes are typically the result of liberal spending, good coordination, strategic vision and accountability. If others can do it, why can't we? Are we so different? Or do we lack belief in our capacities? Or are we willing to screw over other to suck up to a firangi? Have we learned nothing from our history?

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 24 Nov 2008 01:23

I am touching a topic that i am sure has not been discussed earlier.

After the Pokhran blasts, it was in news that many indian scientists working on sensitive research in US were asked to leave, & india openly agreed to absorb them into existing indian programs.
Does anyone have any dope on this? Did these scientists come back to india & join indian institutions?
If they were working on sensitive tech in USA, then surely they would have brought back radical new 'thinking' and ideas.
I wonder if any of these have been incorporated into ongoing research & development...

Any new initiative based on new ideas will take a few years of gestation before the results start showing...& i think it's time for that now.

When i hear of the 'sudden' new developments of hitherto unknown missiles - Shaurya, anti ballistic missiles etc... i cant help but wonder - is there a possibility of new 'thinking' and ideas having begun showing results.

Ofcourse i coulf very well be wrong.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Nov 2008 01:40

After the Pokhran blasts, it was in news that many indian scientists working on sensitive research in US were asked to leave, & india openly agreed to absorb them into existing indian programs.
Does anyone have any dope on this? Did these scientists come back to india & join indian institutions?

The one known related event was Indian collaborators at a DOE run civilian facility (Fermilab) had difficulty getting visas and even the collaboration was uncertain for the future. The Indian flag was taken down at this facility is what I heard.

My personal experience during that time was immigration officer doing an extra grill on the nature of work. In a few instances physics graduate students with full scholarship faced difficulties in getting a visa to travel to the US. All this in a not too sensitive area of work, which gets regularly published with no restrictions.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 24 Nov 2008 02:05

ss_roy wrote:
1] Most indians accept being defined by others. Our best sources of news about indians and indian history in general are outsiders, not ourselves. Letting this continue will have some dire long-term consequences.

2] Indians tend to dream small and are afraid of failure. Why??

3] Why are Indians so concerned about how others perceive them?

4] Why do we starve both necessary and innovative projects of money?

Sad, but true. I have resigned to the fact that ISRO cannot "lead" it will follow and that will continue for a long time to come. ION engines/High density electric storage/miniature electric energy sources etc should be what we should aim for, and I dont see any developments in that area.

The ONLY "looking forward" project, which promises to change the face of launch tech, that I heard from ISRO is the RLV program. The rest is just trying to copy.

Here are the words of my Gym Instructor (who was obese like 6 years back and is now in the best possible shape a bodybuilder can be):

"Start Slowly and do whats possible for you and before you know it you will be planning for and achieving what is impossible"

Maybe thats ISROs mantra. So patience is the key i guess

. Someday we will lead..... and that someday maynot be in our lifetime, which is another sad fact that I have resigned to.