Indian Space Program Discussion

[Gerard]

The UMLV (Unified Modular Launch Vehicle) with semi-cryo core (mentioned in ISRO's outcome budget) will probably launch these larger sats

[vasu_ray]

while it is somewhat justifiable to happily claim shoestring budgets, salaries to scientists and support personnel aren't comparable elsewhere, perhaps creating a R&D vertical and having a separate pay package so that overseas talent can be attracted might be a good start. when R&D vertical is better than IT vertical so many more kids would opt for it.

A common minimum wage concept including medical insurance coverage hasn't taken root yet, when it does the costs wouldn't be the same when you include the whole supply chain.

[Arun_S]

GSLV-III will lob around 3.5 tons in space but now Communication satellites are growing in weight upto 6-7 tons, so its lift capacity would be low. There is no official indication of GSLV-IV, which in any case won't be commercially available before 2020

GSLV-III will carry 4 tonnes to GTO orbit and with some upgrades be extended to 6 tonne to GTO.

[SaiK]

can't we send modular satellites to space? that when joined (docked) will extend, augment and further improve the communication satellites. additional launches can piggyback fuel supply modules to existing space crafts.

[vavinash]

GSLV-III will lob around 3.5 tons in space but now Communication satellites are growing in weight upto 6-7 tons, so its lift capacity would be low. There is no official indication of GSLV-IV, which in any case won't be commercially available before 2020

GSLV-III will carry 4 tonnes to GTO orbit and with some upgrades be extended to 6 tonne to GTO.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SPACE/spa ... ml#gslvmk3

GSLV Mk-III able to launch 4,400 kg satellite to GTO, or 10 tonne to LEO by 2007/2008, with growth potential towards a 6,000kg payload capability through minor improvements

On a similar note once the Indigenous cryo engine comes online can GSLV-II be improved to carry further loads upto 3 tonnes?

[SaiK]

ISRO working on spacecraft engine
From Kalyan Ray,DH News Service,Shillong:
The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) has developed the first prototype of an ion-propulsion engine that can take unmanned spacecraft to the outer solar system.

Despite initial positive results in this highly ambitious project, ISRO top brass is tight lipped about the development unless they test the technology.
“I can not reveal any technology specifications of the ion-propulsion system unless we test them,” Dr K Radhakrishnan, director of Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre in Thiruvananthapuram told Deccan Herald here on the sidelines of the 96th Indian Science Congress here. Spacecraft propulsion is required to accelerate spacecraft and artificial satellites to go out of the earth’s gravity and move ahead in deep space.
Bulk of the current genre of spacecraft use chemical fuels for launch. Most satellites also have simple but reliable chemical thrusters for orbital station-keeping.
But there is active research on ion thrusters, which provide electric propulsion. The first successful ion-propulsion engine is a European Space Agency (ESA) payload, SMART-1 that reached the moon in 2004.
In a broad sense, ISRO’s ion-thrusters will use electricity to accelerate ions which left from the rear of the spacecraft (the ions act as the reaction mass). In the process the space craft pushes ahead. Another power source – initially a photovoltaic solar panel – provides the energy.
However, once the ion-propulsion technology is proven, the space agency may even use a miniature nuclear reactor as the electricity source.
ISRO chairman Dr G Madhavan Nair too said at the Science Congress that the “electric propulsion system from the stationary plasma thrusters may pave the way for nuclear propulsion system in future.”
The trials will possibly begin next year with the launch of GSAT-4 payload.
If the technology turns out to be a success, it would help ISRO design probes to explore the at least a portion of the outer solar system involving Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and their satellites.

perhaps nair should also take up GTRE team under his umbrella! /OT

[ss_roy]

Hmm.. I think you are not getting my drift. The problems with institutions in India is not the quality of most people who work in them, which is actually very high. The problems stem from the way they are utilized.. you can have the best, most motivated people and they can still achieve nothing because of bad/ overtly politicized management.

The public face of ISRO has often been too deferential to its critics and not willing to stand up to bad demands, whether they come from politicians or journalistic types. Look at how the GSLV misfire was handled. Not one person from ISRO was willing to emphatically point out (in public) that every space launcher family every built has had horrendous and unexpected failures. I would have expected someone at ISRO to make a press kit with footage of launch disasters from other countries to explain that everyone has screwed up -The Protons ,R-7 , Titan, Delta, Atlas, CZ family of launcher have all suffered from many disasters before they got it right.

I believe that the priorities of ISRO should be developing and mastering all existing rocket and related technologies, especially those that are well proven. So developing newer, bigger and better rocket engines is a worthwhile endeavour. However investing resources in unproven technologies without proper staging is a bad idea.

If ISRO had pushed the RLV as a hypersonic technology development platform with potentially immediate applications in defence (spy planes) and future development as a LEO launcher- I would support it. This approach allows you to-

1] Manage expectations - hypersonic spy planes are much easier than true RLVs. Developing such planes allows you develop your skill base and iron out problems at a more leisurely pace.
2] Even a partial success is profitable- Building hypersonic manned/unmanned spy planes for the IAF can generate additional revenue/ interest/ access to technology and new ideas. which can then be used towards developing a true RLV

ISRO has never done anything to please others. So stop the crap about doing it to show off bit. IF ISRO did not think TSTO is practical then they would not pursue it. RLV-TD is only a TD to test the systems for the TSTO.

[ss_roy]

Thank god!! I thought it would take them "forever and a day". The problem with ISRO has always been in their misguided attempts at restricting themselves into doing useful but mediocre 'aam aadmi' stuff (communications/imaging satellites).

Ideally they should do the mediocre (but profitable) stuff and cutting edge research.

ISRO working on spacecraft engine
From Kalyan Ray,DH News Service,Shillong:
The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) has developed the first prototype of an ion-propulsion engine that can take unmanned spacecraft to the outer solar system.

[ss_roy]

Yes, and I also think that they should have better collaborations with other groups such as those involved in atomic energy, non-space related basic and applied physics, semiconductor technology etc. I hope that people can put aside their departmental fiefdoms in the interest of a better future for ALL of them.

My quibble with the RLV is linked to how it is being promoted- as a reusable LEO launch system. While a reusable LEO launch system is a good idea, they should have a plan B if things don't work well. I have mentioned in a previous post that promoting the RLV as a hypersonic spy plane that may be further developed to put objects in LEO is a better 'staged' idea- even a partial success would guarantee more revenue.

Agreed that it is going to be much more complicated than what ISRO has achieved till date. But as Mr.Nair put it, it is more about retaining talent by keeping them challenged intellectually. More problems to solve, more cutting edge research would attract and keep the best talented people in ISRO.

Till the RLV converts to a horizontal takeoff, single stage to orbit vehicle, the mass fraction would look absurd, unnecessary. It would look like an extremely complication venture with not much returns. But long term would prove it to be wrong..

You did not get the direction of my rant. I am saying that we should do things because WE want to do them.

We should not go to the moon just because the americans did it, we should do it because WE want to do it, because WE think it will create jobs and avenues for technology development in India, because it will make US proud.

we should not explore the planets because others have done it, but because WE want to do it, because WE think it is in our interests, because WE think that OUR future is best served by developing such technology.

Similarly we should not develop some technology because others are doing it, we should develop technologies because WE believe it is a good idea, because WE believe that it offers US advantages.

I am all for cutting edge research, in fact if you have read my previous posts you will see that I have always supported developing such technology even if it has no immediate applications. I have often chided indian scientists for being too conservative and not willing to lead the world. I have always supported spending in science because only science and commerce can lift millions out of poverty.

However you cannot do that by looking up to the west, you have to look AT the west- as an equal. Indians have the intellect to do that, but we choose to be a sidekick. Why should we continue that?

what I am saying can be summed up thus-

Stop others from defining your reach and ambitions! Do things because you agree with them after an objective analysis, not because it is in fashion.

Well then India should stop its space program. With GSLV-Mk3 we should be able to launch our heaviest satellites - after 2009, we would not need any more improvements to our space vehicles atleast (our satellites are already world class). Regarding cost, we Indians are quite efficient with the allotted funds and used to working on shoestring budgets. Regarding practicality, it depends on what all other countries think is practical - there was no reason in 1960s to go to the moon or send a man there, there has been no activity for almost 4 decades, now suddenly it started picking up in Asia (all this helium stories are humbug - would never be economical to mine stuff from moon, and we still havent perfected N-fusion yet). The latest fad is hypersonic flight and affordable space transport. But dont forget that due to their spending in the 60s, Russia and America are the top scientific superpowers when it comes to space today. Also you can only spend money in all this when your economy is doing good - but the knowledge/experience would stay for a long time to come.

[kit]

Thank god!! I thought it would take them "forever and a day". The problem with ISRO has always been in their misguided attempts at restricting themselves into doing useful but mediocre 'aam aadmi' stuff (communications/imaging satellites).

Ideally they should do the mediocre (but profitable) stuff and cutting edge research.

ISRO working on spacecraft engine
From Kalyan Ray,DH News Service,Shillong:
The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) has developed the first prototype of an ion-propulsion engine that can take unmanned spacecraft to the outer solar system.

Ion propulsion was first used by ESA back in the 80 's .. am not sure if theirs was a first !

[lakshmikanth]

Ion propulsion was first used by ESA back in the 80 's .. am not sure if theirs was a first !

I think they meant ISRO's first and not the worlds first.

Project Pluto did something similar though not exactly ion engines.

Small Nuclear power rockets are possible... but i dont know if ISRO would be "brave" enough to do that or our babus who sanction money would want to risk it.

[ss_roy]

The first operational ion thrusters were used by the soviet space program in the 1950s/ early 1960s. The most common type of ion thrusters are low thrust/ high Isp types. They are good for maintaining/ changing orbits or gently accelerating spacecraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_engines

An other type of ion thrusters are VASIMIR type designs that have a medium thrust and high Isps. It is these thrusters that could one day allow humans to travel to mars and beyond. However they require many hundreds of kW (preferably many MW) of electric power, and this is where nuclear power comes into play.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_s ... sma_rocket

Ion propulsion was first used by ESA back in the 80 's .. am not sure if theirs was a first !

[Kailash]

You did not get the direction of my rant. I am saying that we should do things because WE want to do them.

We should not go to the moon just because the americans did it, we should do it because WE want to do it, because WE think it will create jobs and avenues for technology development in India, because it will make US proud.

we should not explore the planets because others have done it, but because WE want to do it, because WE think it is in our interests, because WE think that OUR future is best served by developing such technology.

Similarly we should not develop some technology because others are doing it, we should develop technologies because WE believe it is a good idea, because WE believe that it offers US advantages.

Since most of the stuff we want to do are already done by someone else, we should not stop ourselves. Nor should be concerned about other comparing our achievements to the nations which have accomplished the same earlier than us.

I am all for cutting edge research, in fact if you have read my previous posts you will see that I have always supported developing such technology even if it has no immediate applications. I have often chided indian scientists for being too conservative and not willing to lead the world.

Well, how can we lead the world, if we are still not on par with the top two nations in these areas? As per your own statements Ion propulsion has been around for half a century and we are just catching up.

Ideally they should do the mediocre (but profitable) stuff and cutting edge research.

These two item are self defeating - in terms of one eating the budget of the other, conservative/ambitious mindset etc (in time both efforts will turn mediocre). Obviously money available is limited, hence we cannot take up unproven concepts and convince our government to allot funds. I too wish we lead the world, but we may have to limit our imagination in what we do (not how we do it) till we actually become as good as Russia or US.

[SSridhar]

ISRO to launch 4 foreign satellites this year

Indian Space Research Organisation will launch four foreign satellites this year as it seeks to make further inroads into the international satellite-building and launch services market in 2009.

Managing Director of Antrix Corporation Ltd, the commercial arm of Bangalore-headquartered ISRO, K R Sridhara Murthy, said the Indian space agency is gearing up to launch four satellites of Singapore, the Netherlands, Italy and Algeria. (These contracts were bagged by ISRO independently and not in partnership with EADS-Astrium). "It (the four spacecraft) is a mix of nano and small satellites".

Contractual obligations bar ISRO from talking about specific launch price but Sridhara Murthy said that the space agency's charge per kg of satellite (to be launched) is around Euro 20,000 per kg, quite cheaper than prevailing International prices.

But, he stressed that the launch price is guided by competition, market conditions and demand-supply scenario.

[Gerard]

India to launch 'unique' satellite to study distant galaxies

[KrishG]

WOW! India is planning to build 2 manned space-craft at the same time! One will be an indigenous cone shaped module like the Mercury class modules which can carry 2 men and the other a Soyuz-derived space-craft built with Russian help which can carry 3 men!
COOL! All the other space-faring countries would have only one space-craft at a time( Orion, Soyuz and Shenzhou) but they are deciding to have 2 ! They really are serious about manned missions!

'Sharing some details about the maiden manned space flight with scientists, Nair said the ISRO envisaged designing two space modules — for carrying two and three astronauts respectively into space.
In the first manned mission, two Indian astronauts will be sent for a seven-day stay in a low earth orbit — anywhere between 160 km to 2000 km — above the earth’s surface using a GSLV rocket.'

http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Jan ... 110557.asp

[Praveen]

WOW! India is planning to build 2 manned space-craft at the same time! One will be an indigenous cone shaped module like the Mercury class modules which can carry 2 men and the other a Soyuz-derived space-craft built with Russian help which can carry 3 men!
COOL! All the other space-faring countries would have only one space-craft at a time( Orion, Soyuz and Shenzhou) but they are deciding to have 2 ! They really are serious about manned missions!

'Sharing some details about the maiden manned space flight with scientists, Nair said the ISRO envisaged designing two space modules — for carrying two and three astronauts respectively into space.
In the first manned mission, two Indian astronauts will be sent for a seven-day stay in a low earth orbit — anywhere between 160 km to 2000 km — above the earth’s surface using a GSLV rocket.'

http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Jan ... 110557.asp

I am guessing ISRO is designing Soyuz-derived space-craft to be in the run for replacement low-cost transport for ISS.

[sanjaykumar]

BRF gold medal candidate of the week.

http://www.khabrein.info/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=62


New Delhi, Jan 13, 2009: Will India be able to send the manned mission to moon before China? Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) director today claimed that by 2015 India will send a manned mission to the moon, leaving behind Chinese plans for the same. China planned to send its manned mission to moon in 2017.

China has much developed space programme when compared to India. Chinese Lunar Exploration Program is a program of robotic explorations and human missions to the Moon undertaken by China National Space Administration (CNSA), China's space agency.

It uses Chang'e lunar orbiters, rovers and soil return spacecraft and adapted Long March 3A, Long March 5/E and Long March 7 launch vehicles. The launch and the flight are monitored constantly by a TT&C System (Deep Space Tracking Network, with radio antennas of 50 m in Beijing, 40 m in Kunming, Shanghai and Ürümqi, forming a 3000 km VLBI antenna. and the Ground Application System, responsible for downlink data reception.

The first spacecraft of the program, Chang'e 1, an un-manned lunar orbiter was successfully launched at Xichang Satellite Launch Center on October 24, 2007.

After the unmanned missions, Chandrayaan-1 and Chandrayaan-2 that ISRO plans to send in three years time, ISRO plans to send a manned mission to the Earth's only natural satellite. The dream year is 2015.

India plans to achieve this rare feat much before China realises its manned mission to the Moon.

So far only the USA and the erstwhile USSR had sent manned missions to the moon. But only the USA had achieved the feat of actually landing man onto the lunar surface. India will be second nation if it succeeds sending man onto the moon's terrain as scheduled in 2020.

[lakshmikanth]

The timeline for the above is way too unrealistic. We do not even have the facilities to train any Anthriksh Yaatris.

Let us assume it takes around 3 years to stabilize and prove that GSLV is capable of taking humans to space

It would take around 3 years to build an Anthriksh Yatri Training org.

4 -5 years to redesign soyuz and build our own system with life support.

If ever everything proceeds parellely (assuming no interdependency):- First Indian in space using Indian tech would be somewhere in 2013- 2014 timeframe.

Going to space is certainly a big leap from what we have right now.... going to moon is going to be 10x times the leap compared to going to space. I just cannot see it happening in 2015. 2018 - 2020 seems to be a more reasonable timeframe.

What I DO see is that by 2017 (if our fund-babus (peace be upon them) ) in space ministry are hawkish enough is that we are going to have a manned orbiter around the moon. This can be either a permenant manned space station around the moon with people visiting once in a while or it can be a one time business. This can get us solid revenues from stuff like space tourism.

[Kailash]

I just cannot see it happening in 2015. 2018 - 2020 seems to be a more reasonable timeframe.

Not if Uncle Sam decides to help. But I too believe it is highly improbable. Even if it is possible, we should not be rushing it. Allow the manned platforms to mature before contemplating a manned moon mission!

India has limited budgets, any setback would push the program minimum half a decade..

[ajay_ijn]

BRF gold medal candidate of the week.

http://www.khabrein.info/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=62


New Delhi, Jan 13, 2009: Will India be able to send the manned mission to moon before China? Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) director today claimed that by 2015 India will send a manned mission to the moon, leaving behind Chinese plans for the same. China planned to send its manned mission to moon in 2017.

China has much developed space programme when compared to India. Chinese Lunar Exploration Program is a program of robotic explorations and human missions to the Moon undertaken by China National Space Administration (CNSA), China's space agency.

It uses Chang'e lunar orbiters, rovers and soil return spacecraft and adapted Long March 3A, Long March 5/E and Long March 7 launch vehicles. The launch and the flight are monitored constantly by a TT&C System (Deep Space Tracking Network, with radio antennas of 50 m in Beijing, 40 m in Kunming, Shanghai and Ürümqi, forming a 3000 km VLBI antenna. and the Ground Application System, responsible for downlink data reception.

The first spacecraft of the program, Chang'e 1, an un-manned lunar orbiter was successfully launched at Xichang Satellite Launch Center on October 24, 2007.

After the unmanned missions, Chandrayaan-1 and Chandrayaan-2 that ISRO plans to send in three years time, ISRO plans to send a manned mission to the Earth's only natural satellite. The dream year is 2015.

India plans to achieve this rare feat much before China realises its manned mission to the Moon.

So far only the USA and the erstwhile USSR had sent manned missions to the moon. But only the USA had achieved the feat of actually landing man onto the lunar surface. India will be second nation if it succeeds sending man onto the moon's terrain as scheduled in 2020.

we don't even have such launch vehicles. they are probably mistaking manned mission to space for manned mission to moon.

[Rahul M]

I just cannot see it happening in 2015. 2018 - 2020 seems to be a more reasonable timeframe.

Not if Uncle Sam decides to help. But I too believe it is highly improbable. Even if it is possible, we should not be rushing it. Allow the manned platforms to mature before contemplating a manned moon mission!

India has limited budgets, any setback would push the program minimum half a decade..

and why exactly should uncle sam decide to help ?
there should be a limit to this mentality of looking up the massa for anything and everything.

[KrishG]

First of all, we'll not be using the Soyuz-derivative for the first manned mission. The first manned mission will take place aboard the ISRO Orbital Vehicle. We would be ready with the Astronaut Training center by 2012-13 if the work begins in the first or second quarter of 2009. The 3rd launch pad at SHAR should be completed by 2013-14. The OV design is more simple compared to the Soyuz-derivative so it would take about 3-5 years thats some date like 2014. It's design is largely based on the successful SREs.

Yeah! Human rating GSLV can begin somewhere in 2010 and test flights could be started in 2014.
The GSLV is not capable of lifting the 3-man Soyuz derivative and will only be used to lift the OV which can carry 2 weighs around 4-4.5 tons i.e. within the capability of the present GSLV.

The Soyuz-derivative will weigh anywhere between 8 tons - 12 tons. That's got to be lifted by GSLV-Mk 3. And that's why ISRO has proposed the 2-capsule idea to speed up the whole process. OV will be completely indigenous while the Soyuz-derivative will not be. e
The 2015 date we are talking about is for the OV. The work on Soyuz-derivative is yet to start and could take what 7 years or so including testing Mk-3 and human rating it.

The OV, human rating the present GSLV and a manned mission by 2015-16 is the first priority. Then we can talk about lunar missions.

And China is not planned a manned lunar mission in 2017! It will carry out a manned lunar mission only in 2020, most probably 2024 as the Long March-5 has a long way to go. And also with the Long March-5 they can only carry out a circum-lunar mission. The 2017 date is for a sample return mission. They have yet to master docking techniques and space-craft capable of landing and returning from another heavenly body. And the thing about ISRO carrying a manned lunar mission by 2015 is completely wrong and 2020 time frame is more achievable if pursued with vigor.

The minimum requirement for a 3-day lunar sortie mission is a launch vehicle capable of lifting atleast 40 tons into LEO. The Long March-5's capability is only 25 tons, enough for a circum-lunar mission. 2 launches a docking could do the trick but I'm really doubtful as it would be prick to 'China's prestige'.

[KrishG]

Our first step in 'Mars Three Program'-------------

The Indian Space Research Organisation has recently commissioned a world class solid propellant plant at Sriharikota, where the 200 tonne propellant booster meant for the' Mars programme' was processed, an official of the Satish Dhawan Space Centre said.

"Two months back, we commissioned a world class solid propellant plant at Sriharikota, where we are able to process the 200 tonnes propellant booster meant for the Mars three programme, which will be commissioned in two years," M Chandradathan, director of SHAR, said, delivering the K Unnikrishan Memorial lecture here last night.

http://www.indopia.in/India-usa-uk-news ... ogy/8/20/8

[ajay_ijn]

Our first step in 'Mars Three Program'-------------

what is that? new launch vehicle?

[wasu]

Just when u think the reporters (especially on tech issues) can't be any more clueless, they keep pushing the bar even lower..
"Mars three" is the DDM equivalent of Mark 3..aka GSLV Mk.3.

[ajay_ijn]

Just when u think the reporters (especially on tech issues) can't be any more clueless, they keep pushing the bar even lower..
"Mars three" is the DDM equivalent of Mark 3..aka GSLV Mk.3.

. these dillholes will never change. they changed mark 3 to mars 3 and forget the "GSLV" part. i guess there is lot of talk abt M-word nowadays- mars, moon and manned mission.
they might call GSLV Mk-II man-rated as Man Two

[KrishG]

Just when u think the reporters (especially on tech issues) can't be any more clueless, they keep pushing the bar even lower..
"Mars three" is the DDM equivalent of Mark 3..aka GSLV Mk.3.

. these dillholes will never change. they changed mark 3 to mars 3 and forget the "GSLV" part. i guess there is lot of talk abt M-word nowadays- mars, moon and manned mission.
they might call GSLV Mk-II man-rated as Man Two

Good one!!!
Anyway I would expect the Mk-3 to carry the Mars probe! That enables us to put upto 2tons in Mars orbit. The Mk-3 has to be commissioned by 2013!

[Akshut]

BRF gold medal candidate of the week.

http://www.khabrein.info/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=62


New Delhi, Jan 13, 2009: Will India be able to send the manned mission to moon before China? Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) director today claimed that by 2015 India will send a manned mission to the moon, leaving behind Chinese plans for the same. China planned to send its manned mission to moon in 2017.

China has much developed space programme when compared to India. Chinese Lunar Exploration Program is a program of robotic explorations and human missions to the Moon undertaken by China National Space Administration (CNSA), China's space agency.

It uses Chang'e lunar orbiters, rovers and soil return spacecraft and adapted Long March 3A, Long March 5/E and Long March 7 launch vehicles. The launch and the flight are monitored constantly by a TT&C System (Deep Space Tracking Network, with radio antennas of 50 m in Beijing, 40 m in Kunming, Shanghai and Ürümqi, forming a 3000 km VLBI antenna. and the Ground Application System, responsible for downlink data reception.

The first spacecraft of the program, Chang'e 1, an un-manned lunar orbiter was successfully launched at Xichang Satellite Launch Center on October 24, 2007.

After the unmanned missions, Chandrayaan-1 and Chandrayaan-2 that ISRO plans to send in three years time, ISRO plans to send a manned mission to the Earth's only natural satellite. The dream year is 2015.

India plans to achieve this rare feat much before China realises its manned mission to the Moon.

So far only the USA and the erstwhile USSR had sent manned missions to the moon . But only the USA had achieved the feat of actually landing man onto the lunar surface. India will be second nation if it succeeds sending man onto the moon's terrain as scheduled in 2020.

On top it is 2015 and then 2020.
I dont know what to make out of this report. But even if ISRO did it by 2018-2020 it would be applaudable. The thing is to get it right, doesnt matter the 3 year gap(hopfully it won't be)!!

[KrishG]

Let's first develop a launch vehicle capable of putting 20 tons to LEO (most probably a future variant of mk-3 family)! Then we can decide if we have to develop a 40-60 ton capable rocket or carry out a lunar sortie in 2 steps like the American plan! First priorities first!

At present India's heaviest launch vehicle is Mk-2, capable of 5 tons to LEO. So, the lunar rocket must be 10 times better. Anyway, sooner or later we have got a develop a super-heavy lifter atleast the same class as N-1 or Saturn-V ! First priorities first! Keep your fingers crossed that the first LEO mission will take place in 2015 as scheduled !

[KrishG]

Hey! The Hindu has also the same mistake------------
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 152074.htm

[Hiten]

Dr. Kasturirangan was sounding quite like an alarmist

'India must not surrender its hard earned knowledge'

Dr. K Kasturirangan cautioned India not to surrender its hard earned knowledge and experience in Space Technology to the dictums of developed world.

Dr. Kasturirangan said, "Some of countries of the developed world have a habit of changing rules and making new treaties to monopolize the world's resources. India had to wait for more than 30 years to join the nuclear club. Now that it is one of the pioneering nations in space technology and satellite-based communication systems, it must protect and promote this edge.".....

Are they putting any pressure to restrain India's Space program. I thought the West was more than happy to see a successfull Indian Space program, which in its opinon would help counter the growing Chinese hegemony

Or does he know something not being made public pointing to such a thing?

[KrishG]

Dr. Kasturirangan was sounding quite like an alarmist

'India must not surrender its hard earned knowledge'

Dr. K Kasturirangan cautioned India not to surrender its hard earned knowledge and experience in Space Technology to the dictums of developed world.

Dr. Kasturirangan said, "Some of countries of the developed world have a habit of changing rules and making new treaties to monopolize the world's resources. India had to wait for more than 30 years to join the nuclear club. Now that it is one of the pioneering nations in space technology and satellite-based communication systems, it must protect and promote this edge.".....

Are they putting any pressure to restrain India's Space program. I thought the West was more than happy to see a successfull Indian Space program, which in its opinon would help counter the growing Chinese hegemony

Or does he know something not being made public pointing to such a thing?

I think he is specifically speaking about many Indians (IITians also) who work for ISRO for 2-3 years to gain work-experience and run off to NASA!

[skganji]

Yes, India cannot share its Space knowledge and technology with any Western countries . This is what these countries have did it to India for last 30 years.

[vsudhir]

Kudos to Dr K for saying it like it is.

The yindians have been sanctioned and dissed and downplayed and screwed over quite a many times in the past. No more. Pious intent from the same abduls who previously devised and applied denial regimes should be treated with deep mistrust the kind our revenue and enforcement department babus in particular are capable of.

[Arun_S]

Just when u think the reporters (especially on tech issues) can't be any more clueless, they keep pushing the bar even lower..
"Mars three" is the DDM equivalent of Mark 3..aka GSLV Mk.3.

. these dillholes will never change. they changed mark 3 to mars 3 and forget the "GSLV" part. i guess there is lot of talk abt M-word nowadays- mars, moon and manned mission.
they might call GSLV Mk-II man-rated as Man Two

Oh no .... The GSLV Mk-III will be called "Man-tri" (in Hindi: 'Minister')
and the manned GSLV-Mk III will be called "Pradhan Mantri"; if only Pradhan Mantri shoots MMS into space on its first test flight instead of Laica and establish a world record.

If wishes had wings Pradhan Mantri will fly.

[lakshmikanth]

Dr. Kasturirangan was sounding quite like an alarmist

'India must not surrender its hard earned knowledge'

Dr. K Kasturirangan cautioned India not to surrender its hard earned knowledge and experience in Space Technology to the dictums of developed world.

Dr. Kasturirangan said, "Some of countries of the developed world have a habit of changing rules and making new treaties to monopolize the world's resources. India had to wait for more than 30 years to join the nuclear club. Now that it is one of the pioneering nations in space technology and satellite-based communication systems, it must protect and promote this edge.".....

Are they putting any pressure to restrain India's Space program. I thought the West was more than happy to see a successfull Indian Space program, which in its opinon would help counter the growing Chinese hegemony

Or does he know something not being made public pointing to such a thing?

I guess its a statement to our Babus in the negotiation depts not to trade our secrets with others. Its about using the tools that the west has... which is use the scientific might and monopolize it.

It also could be an indication that a LOT of work might go underground for strategic military purposes and would be kept under wraps and should be protected at all costs.

[Arun_S]

Dr. Kasturirangan was sounding quite like an alarmist

'India must not surrender its hard earned knowledge'
Are they putting any pressure to restrain India's Space program. I thought the West was more than happy to see a successfull Indian Space program, which in its opinon would help counter the growing Chinese hegemony

Or does he know something not being made public pointing to such a thing?

I guess its a statement to our Babus in the negotiation depts not to trade our secrets with others. Its about using the tools that the west has... which is use the scientific might and monopolize it.

It also could be an indication that a LOT of work might go underground for strategic military purposes and would be kept under wraps and should be protected at all costs.

Dr Kasturirangan saw first hand what was fritted away by Man Mohan Singh's "India US Civil nuclear agreement". Thorium fuel cycle is will become free for "World's Good" IOW "Public Domain". We onlee first-class peace fool (sic) world citizens.

Reminds me of a term in massa-land "Uber Grand Larceny"

[Arun_S]

Cross posting Rahul M's post from Kaveri thread, with lots of loaded information that has bearing on SLV and Avatar. My high lightes in blue colour.
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The member is back from his sojourn to the heart of India's aerospace industry.
The following are excerpts from his email :
(There are some good and bad news with the bad news presented up front, in accordance with the email ordering. The highlights are mine)

Unfortunately, unlike the guys at NAL, IISC, ASTE and CABS, who turned out to be very proactive in their discussions with yours truly, the guys at the GTRE were not overly helpful to my queries. The best I could get out of that place other than actually seeing the engines was to get the lead guy to accept a written version of my queries as a favor. he says he will get back to me later. When I get the email from him, I will pass you a copy of his replies.

Nevertheless, here's some of my personal observations of the place:
a) Compared to the other institutions I have mentioned above, GTRE was almost deserted. No sign of life in that place compared to ASTE, for example.
b) The people working inside were almost lethargic as far as my interactions went. (Again, relatively speaking. NAL EAD (Experimental Aerodynamics Division) was buzzing with activity from mini UAV designs to Saras models being tested in large facilities)
c) The Kaveri engine is beautiful and an engineering masterpiece given the cost at which it has been made. According to the folks in the labs, they are now "within a few percent" of the required thrust levels
d) The Naval version of the engine is going ahead nicely. In fact, I saw more Navy guys at the place than IAF guys!
e) LCA integration remains a paper dream at this point. No fixed dates for any goals at that place. Before going there I had been told to expect this, but it was nevertheless disappointing.
f) SC blades still remains the lynchpin of the design. The Turbine temperatures remains limited until the issues with the SC blades are resolved, which in turn limits the thrust. As mentioned above, several labs are apparently working on the SC technology but again no fixed dates for anything.

The technical stuff in the questionnaire I submitted to the head honcho at GTRE will contain the answers to what the members at BR want to know, but it might be a week before I hear from my friend so don't hold your breath yet. Disappointing, I know, but that is the definition of the place as far as the guys at NAL, IISC etc think of GTRE.

Anyway, enough of the bad news. Now for some brief good news from the other Labs at NAL, ASTE and CABS:

a) LCA making good progress and experimental program to accelerate in the next two months.
b) Amazing (indeed groundbreaking is a better term) progress in Hypersonics both at IISC and NAL EAD. The HSTDV program has been made feasible is all I can say for now. Full flight test in 3 months. Modified Agni-I boost to 40km and then a 20 second burn using hydrogen injection across strut based injectors. Wind tunnel tests completed.
c) Pathbreaking advances in plasma drag reduction techniques (what we read briefly in the news etc) that reduce missile drag by 30% during reentry using the most simplest of techniques. In addition, the temperatures at the surface are reduced dramatically so that heat shield no longer needs to be as bulky as before. Reduced weight as a result leading to dramatic new values for the missile fuel-mass values.
d) Active noise control helmets for the LCA under design. These will cut out the engine background noise completely so that the pilot can listen to AWACS controls etc more clearly in the thick of combat.
e) Significant progress on the CABS AEW radar electronics. Aircraft integration studies underway.
f) Micro-UAV designs being studied at NAL for the Army.
g) Chetan Helicopter undergoing flight tests.
h) Some activity seen on the Avro "Hack" with regard to LCA MMR. (Though that was out of bounds for me, so not many more details here)
i) New self compensating aero-nozzles for SLVs and Multi-stage missiles. Reduces overall requirement for different stages with different nozzle area ratios and increases fuel carriage and so shows exponential increase in range for the same design sizes. In wind tunnels right now awaiting flight tests.
k) Base bleed studies underway for reduced missile drag. Also in wind tunnels at NAL EAD.
l) A new fixed wing design aircraft being designed at NAL. Very hush-hush, I am told. They wouldn't even tell me what the aircraft type was!!
g) NAL designers are talking of a new large body civilian airliner type aircraft project about to begin.
h) NAL collaborating with GTRE now for advances in afterburning engine nozzles. Also, NAL now beginning studies in turbine blade perfromance. They seem to be bypassing GTRE on a number of issues. This is something that became increasingly obvious after a few hours of talks with the people there.

[KrishG]

Efficiency of GSLV-Mk III

The question has been bugging me for days and I decided to compare Mk-III with some launch vehicles. I know that there was a discussion on the capability of Mk-III and the conclusion was that it could launch about 6-7 tons to GTO and 15 tons to LEO.............................................

Now, we are hearing official statements from ISRO saying that it's capability will be lesser than or equal to 10 tons to LEO and 4 tons to GTO. Conformation from officials------------
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/space/sate ... ark-3.html
http://www.telecommagazine.com/newsglob ... ID=AR_4726 etc etc etc

*I was quite surprised to see some of the other launch vehicles in this payload category. The GSLV-Mk III weighs in about 630,000 kg.

*The American Delta-IV Medium has a payload capability of 4 tons to GTO and 9 tons to LEO. It weighs at around 250,000 kg

*The European Ariane-4 Heavy(retired) had a capability of 4.5 tons to GTO and 8 tons to LEO. It had a mass of 470,000 kg.

*The Japanese H-II (retired) had a payload capability of 4 tons to GTO and 10 tons to LEO. It's overall mass was surprisingly 260,000 kg

*The Chinese Long March-2E(A) has a capability of about 3.5 tons to GTO and 9 tons to LEO. It's overall mass is 462,000 kg.

These launch vehicles have almost the same payload capability as of the GSLV-Mk III. Yet Mk-III's overall mass is 630,000 kg.
Japan's present H-IIA Heavy version has a payload capability of about 6 tons to GTO and 15 tons to LEO with an overall mass of 445,000 kg i.e about 50 tons more than the present GSLV. ( Truly Whopping )

Even in it's final form GSLV-Mk III it's capability is predicted to be 6 tons to GTO and 15 tons to LEO.

I am really not criticizing GSLV-Mk III but I just want our ISRO to make GSLV-Mk III a efficient heavy-lift vehicle for our future manned missions and also for greater competitiveness in the commercial market. Let's hope we get an efficient heavy-launcher in GSLV-Mk III.