Indian Space Program Discussion

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jaladipc
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Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 25 Jan 2009 08:51

A small question to gurus of BRF regarding the IRNSS.

Its well known that India is going to launch a set of 7 sats which are going to cover +1500km outside the Indian land mass

And big is it to launch a whole spectrum of 21 or so sats to get a global coverage?

Even considering the fact that the IRNSS will be done by 2012 by launching approx 2 sats a year starting this year.

and our GSLV-MKIII will touch the outer atmos in 2 more years and may give us the capability to launch multiple IRNSS in one go.And the present budget for these 7 is turned out to be around 1 billion.And another 14 or 16 wont cost more than 2-2.5 billion.But on the other hand we are having a global coverage.

In future if any of our Agni family missiles wanted to have a visit to North America our own navigation sat system would come handy.

So far i didnt heard any plans of increasing the coverage beyond South-Asia.May be i might have missed the murmurings.
Can anyone enlighten me? :-?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Gerard » 25 Jan 2009 19:26


disha
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby disha » 26 Jan 2009 10:39

ss_roy wrote:Because Indians lack self-confidence and do not like to think critically (especially when following the white man blindly will get them promotions).

ISRO spent 2 decades developing the technology because they did not buy french cryogenic engines + technology when they could have (political interference + management attitudes). Even worse, they did not put enough resources and people towards developing them after 1993 (management). ISRO is an organization with competent people run by poor managers under a brain-dead central government/ bureaucracy (just like post 1972 NASA)


Can you take the above Rona-Dhona [R&Dh (tm)] to the whine thread? Above is nothing but :(( 'ing.

ss_roy wrote:Hypergolics have the advantage of reliability and storability along with a fairly decent mass fraction. It's fuels do not ignite in the air like H2 and RP-1.


Hypergolic engines are reliable, but hypergolic fuels are horrible for storage. I recommend that you read WoF to get a clue on hypergolics. Particularly your statement that hypergolic fuels do not ignite in air is factually wrong.[/quote]

ss_roy wrote: There is a reason that Russia and the USA developed ICBMs with hypergolics (before better solid fuels were developed). There is a reason that the Viking engines in Ariane-4 had less than 5 malfunctions (1-2?) in over 1,000 engine burns. Hypergolics are the only storable fuels that allow you to launch large spacecraft from the ground (CZ-2, CZ-3 family, Proton) without additional types of fuels/boosters.


Compare the bolded part above with bolded part below ...

ss_roy wrote:H2/LOX are theoretically desirable, but not cost-effective in lower stages. The reason that Ariane-5, Delta-4 and the Space shuttle use them boils down to decisions of politics and organizational stances, not cost!


So what is your problem against LH/LOX, to use in lower stage or not or compared to Hypergolics? Further can you give us links on the politics and organizational stances on engines? Till then that part is subjective and again belongs to the R&Dh thread.

ss_roy wrote:Solid fueled rockets are incredibly reliable and mechanically simpler, though they have a poorer mass fraction. But they make excellent Stage 0 and Stage 1's (Ariane 5, Space shuttle).


Ah! I see the light. Now can you tell me which are the top five solid boosters in the world? And then check your first statement in this post which is recommended for the R&Dh thread.

ss_roy wrote:RP-1/LOX are problematic to master, but once you master them- the reliability is very good! (Soyuz, Zenit, Delta-2 launchers)

If you have mature technology- Pure Hypergolics, Hypergolics + Solids and RP-1 are roughly comparable in cost and effectiveness. RP-1/ LOX can give you a better 'bang for the buck' with very heavy launchers. Do remember that I am talking about using cryogenic H2/LOX engines in the last stage for every case.


I have a suggestion for you, can you compare the re-startability of Rp-1/LOX and LH/LOX? Also add in regenerative cooling. All for the last stage of course.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby ss_roy » 27 Jan 2009 06:10

It is important to understand why we are in our current situation.

Can you take the above Rona-Dhona [R&Dh (tm)] to the whine thread? Above is nothing but 'ing


Hypergolic launchers can left for upto 6 months (with monitoring for leaks) at room temperature without any effect on launch reliability. That is why they were used in large ICBMs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-18

dimethylhydrazine or nitrogen tetroxide do not react explosively with the oxygen in air, though both are quite toxic. They can ignite in air, but not with air! RP-1 and H2, on the other hand, do react with the oxygen in air if you have an ignition source- compare titan-3/ proton blowups to soyuz, delta-2, ariane-5 blowups.

Hypergolic engines are reliable, but hypergolic fuels are horrible for storage. I recommend that you read WoF to get a clue on hypergolics. Particularly your statement that hypergolic fuels do not ignite in air is factually wrong.


The Proton-M and CZ-2/ CZ-3 family of launchers can do quite well without a cryogenic engines in any stage. However using a cryogenic stage at the top allows you to put larger satellites in GTO (or send bigger spacecrafts to other planets).

Japan and USA (officially) use lower stage LH2/LOX engines in some launchers because it reduces the launcher's total weight and is a technical achievement. There are also many people who see expensive and complicated engines as a means to get more money from the government. The space shuttle can put about 20 tons in LEO for about 600-900 million dollars. The Proton-M can do the same for less than 70 million dollars.

There was a lot of politics behind developing both delta-4 and atlas-5, even when atlas-5 was the cheaper and more reliable extra heavy launcher. The main engines of Atlas-5 (RD-180) are russian and are cheaper than delta-4 (RS-68), which are made by people with more influence. So while they cannot trash Atlas-5, they can make sure that there are orders for Delta-4s.

So what is your problem against LH/LOX, to use in lower stage or not or compared to Hypergolics? Further can you give us links on the politics and organizational stances on engines? Till then that part is subjective and again belongs to the R&Dh thread.


I have always maintained that a mix of solid + hypergolics is the easiest solution for launching things into space. My problem with the current GSLV design is that it could do much better if the burn times of the boosters were matched to the main SRB (or vice versa).

ISRO has always been driven by too many conflicting agendas and directions, resulting in a lack of long term direction. Example- They should have started developing RP-1/LOX engines 15 years ago and we would have had a Delta-2 type launcher by now.

Ah! I see the light. Now can you tell me which are the top five solid boosters in the world? And then check your first statement in this post which is recommended for the R&Dh thread.


As the apollo missions have demonstrated, LH2/LOX engines can be restarted with ease (compared to RP-1/LOX engines). The Trans-Lunar Injection (TLI) stage of Saturn V is one of the best examples of that approach, as it was both the 3rd stage and the TLI stage (2 burns- with a lot of fine tuning for the second burn)

However they do not offer big functional gains for Stage 1 or stage 0 engines (both stages usually burn at full blast for the first 140-160 seconds).

I have a suggestion for you, can you compare the re-startability of Rp-1/LOX and LH/LOX? Also add in regenerative cooling. All for the last stage of course.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 27 Jan 2009 21:03

The approach of ISRO towards developing GSLV was not ideal. The plan was to adopt the design of the PSLV and replace the the solid boosters by LSBs and combine the third and fourth stage with a single Cryogenic stage. This left behind the solid 1st stage and Hypergolic 2nd stage.

The GSLV-I/II are by no way the best design and there is a lot of room for improvement.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Jan 2009 04:49

The F/S will be changed out to a semi cryo. Its all planned. By any measure the ISRO launcher program is the most cost effective based on money spent and the results achieved. Yes there were delays but then others dont have to deal with sanctions etc.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby kasthuri » 28 Jan 2009 18:16

Chandrayaan II in GSLV and not in PSLV.

Chandrayaan II to be launched on GSLV

Can it be GSLV-Mk III ?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby ajay_ijn » 28 Jan 2009 18:21

kasthuri wrote:Chandrayaan II in GSLV and not in PSLV.

Chandrayaan II to be launched on GSLV

Can it be GSLV-Mk III ?

yes Hindu reported a while back that its going to be Mk-III.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby K Mehta » 28 Jan 2009 18:46

Moon Impactor Probe silenced sceptics
However, some scientists were doubtful about including the 28-kg MIP as a part of the payload and favoured carrying some other experiments, said senior scientist Narendra Bhandari, who has been involved with Chandrayaan-I since its inception.

On the one hand there was one experiment that "would weigh 28 kg and crash on the lunar surface and on the other hand, we had 10 experiments with a total weight of 50 kg," he said.

Any given day, scientists would have preferred carrying more diverse experiments instead of one weighing 28 kg, Bhandari said.

But the breathtaking pictures beamed back on earth by MIP as it plunged towards the moon gladdened scientists. Never before had they seen pictures of the moon clicked from an altitude of 6 km.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 29 Jan 2009 00:27


ajay_ijn
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby ajay_ijn » 29 Jan 2009 08:32

man thats a surprise. we don't see ISRO Satellites failing anytime except for in olden days. would it possible for ISRO to investigate the failure

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby ajay_ijn » 29 Jan 2009 08:42

Eutelsat Statement on the W2m Satellite
Eutelsat Communications (Euronext Paris: ETL) announces that the performance of the W2M satellite, which was launched on 20 December 2008, does not comply with the requirements set with the spacecraft's manufacturer, EADS Astrium/ISRO Antrix, following a major anomaly affecting the satellite's power subsystem. This anomaly occurred during the satellite's transfer from the location used for in-orbit tests to its operating position at 16 degrees East where its mission was to replace well in advance Eutelsat's W2 satellite.

In the interests of protecting continuity of service for clients leasing capacity at the 16 degrees East position, Eutelsat has consequently taken the decision that in the current circumstances W2M will not be integrated into Eutelsat's satellite fleet. Currently under the control of ISRO, the satellite is undergoing a full technical investigation by ISRO and EADS.


the last time communication satellite failed was way back in 1997, INSAT 2D.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Kailash » 29 Jan 2009 19:20


Avinash R
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Avinash R » 30 Jan 2009 10:14

Young IT professionals prefer ISRO now
Press Trust of India

Tuesday, January 27, 2009, (Coimbatore)
Many young software engineers were applying for posts in ISRO after the success of Chandrayaan-1, a top official in the Department of Science and Tecnology (DoST), said on Tuesday.

These engineers have stated during interviews that they lacked professional satisfaction in IT companies and their jobs and wanted to work in space related programmes, by which they could at least be proud and part of a great mission, Dr G J Samathanam, Advisor, DoST, said Tuesday.

Speaking at a workshop of 'short term course of Research Guides,' at UGC-Academic Staff College here, Samathanam said the success of Chandrayaan-1 has put India in the elite lunar club comprising of Russia, US, Japan, China and European Space Agency.

Stating that by 2025 India would land on the moon, he said considering the potential in science and technology, Rs 1.25 lakh crore have been allocated in the 11th five year plan.

However, the concern today was that how this huge allocation would become functional and mission oriented investment, he said, adding multidisciplinary approach or hybridisation of thoughts should be the need of the hour in India.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby lakshmikanth » 31 Jan 2009 13:22

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ISRO-built_satellite_fails_after_five_weeks/articleshow/4056577.cms?TOI_latestnews
"Scientists at ISRO are analyzing the anomaly in the hope of reviving the satellite," ISRO spokesman S. Satish said.

He said ISRO's two earlier satellites INSAT-1C and 2D had similar problems. But European analysts have told the authoritative Washington-based Space News, that the ISRO-built satellite "is likely a total loss".


We were critiquing NIGCOM sat going down the drain due to China.... This is just OUCH!!!!!

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Gerard » 31 Jan 2009 21:43


Arun_S
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 01 Feb 2009 00:46

Chandrayan: C1XS Catches First Glimpse of X-rays from the Moon

January 23, 2009
The Imaging X-ray Spectrometer, one of the 11 payloads onboard Chandrayaan-1 spacecraft, jointly developed by the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) and UK’s Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, has successfully detected the first X-ray signature from the Moon. This is the first step in its mission to reveal the origin and evolution of the Moon by mapping its surface composition. It may be recalled that Chandrayaan-1 spacecraft was launched from Satish Dhawan Space Centre, Sriharikota on October 22, 2008 and entered the lunar orbit on November 8, 2008.

In orbit around the Moon, Chandrayaan-1 Imaging X ray Spectrometer (C1XS) detected the X-ray signal from a region near the Apollo landing sites on ? December 12, 2008 at 02:36 UT. The solar flare that caused the X-ray fluorescence was exceedingly weak, approximately 20 times smaller than the minimum C1XS was designed to detect. The X-ray camera collected 3 minutes of data from the Moon just as the flare started and the camera finished its observation. C1XS depends on radiation from the Sun to activate the detection of X rays. Though, the minimum in solar activity was expected to end in early 2008, however solar activity is yet to reach the anticipated increase. With the highly sensitive C1XS instrument, it has been possible to detect the X rays.

The camera - C1XS (pronounced “kicks”) – was designed and built at Space Science and Technology Department at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory in collaboration with Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO). It is an X-Ray Spectrometer that uses X-rays to map the surface composition of the Moon and will help scientists to understand its origin and evolution, as well as quantifying the mineral resources that exist there.

[Click for Image of First lunar spectrum under solar flare]

Chandrayaan-1 is the first lunar mission of ISRO and also the first mission with international partners. It is designed to orbit the Moon at an altitude of 100 km and carries 11 scientific instruments including radar and particle detectors as well as instruments that will make observations in the visible, near infrared and soft and hard X-rays.

Dr G Madhavan Nair, Chairman, ISRO said that the joint development and operationalisation of C1XS in Chandrayaan-1 between ISRO and RAL, UK is a major achievement. First signatures obtained from C1XS are highly encouraging.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby SaiK » 01 Feb 2009 02:28


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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby vikas_pandey » 01 Feb 2009 02:39


sunilUpa
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 01 Feb 2009 06:05

^^^ Guys please do read atleast the last page (if not the whole thread) before posting news reports.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby ajay_ijn » 01 Feb 2009 18:01


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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby putnanja » 04 Feb 2009 04:02


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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 05 Feb 2009 22:42

India Works With University Of Leicester On First National Astronomy Satellite
Astrosat will carry five instruments to observe exotic objects such as black holes, neutron stars, and active galaxies at a number of different wavelengths simultaneously, from the ultraviolet band to energetic x-rays ... . . .

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Nitesh » 07 Feb 2009 18:37

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/st ... 0090082661

IIT students keen to be a part of ISRO
Last edited by Gerard on 10 Feb 2009 04:16, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited - copyright

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Nitesh » 07 Feb 2009 21:12

Last edited by Gerard on 10 Feb 2009 04:17, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited - copyright

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby AmitR » 07 Feb 2009 23:26

Nitesh wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20090082661

IIT students keen to be a part of ISRO
.


:roll: Seems like this story has been created by an ISRO clerk and handed over to ndtv for posting in their website.
The only reason that freshers are keen in joining a PSU is because of the turbulent market conditions and H1 visa restrictions. Once the market opens up again these so called "starry eyed" engineers will vanish faster than the stars in the morning. God bless ISRO then.


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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby neeraj » 09 Feb 2009 22:03



The 3,463 ton W2M satellite is one of the biggest satellites built by ISRO in collaboration with EADS.

If it really was 3,463 ton - it will be the biggest object sent to space ever. DDM at its best.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Katare » 10 Feb 2009 01:07

Typo! Replace the cama with a dot


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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Sanjay M » 10 Feb 2009 05:41

Do I hear 2011? 2012? Anyone?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby saip » 10 Feb 2009 06:38

Katare wrote:Typo! Replace the cama with a dot


Isnt it European habit?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Gerard » 11 Feb 2009 03:34



ajay_ijn
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby ajay_ijn » 11 Feb 2009 23:34


waah its beautipul. :D
from the same article
In its maiden manned mission, ISRO's largely autonomous 3-ton capsule will orbit the Earth at 248 miles (400 km) in altitude for up to seven days with a two-person crew on board, ISRO chairman G. Madhavan Nair announced Jan. 3 at the Indian Science Congress held in Shillong. The capsule will be designed to carry three people, and a planned upgraded version will be equipped with a rendezvous and docking capability, he said.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arunkumar » 12 Feb 2009 05:40

It looks so cooool. :)

So for the antrikshyaan mk1 version rentry and orbital module are the same.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 12 Feb 2009 06:36

Why does the booster for the Orbital Vehicle have fins? Surely its not going to play a role during Earth orbit escape? I can't imagine the booster staying attached to the Orbital Vehicle long enough during Earth reentry for the fins to make a difference either... any gyan welcome.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 12 Feb 2009 07:24

Read the comments-Americans welcoming the competition as opposed to Chinese denigrating Indian efforts (see economy prc thread). That is why America is number one and China kills its own people to harvest their organs.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Ravishankar » 12 Feb 2009 10:37

US, Russian Satellites Collide

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/a ... llide.html

Debris Spews Into Space in Collision of Satellites

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/12/scien ... te.html?hp

Not sure if this news belongs here but sure has some relevance, I'll let the mods decide :wink:

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby kobe » 12 Feb 2009 12:30

i propose the first indo-naut to be arun_s saab,

no, on second thought... i propose the first two indo-nautees
to be arundhoti roy and mamata banerjee (just in case there
in a malfunction)


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