Indian Naval Discussion

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NRao
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 02 Jul 2009 02:59

SanjibGhosh wrote:very interesting, though it's a paki view.

A new hot-spot of rivalry
http://news.google.co.in/news/url?sa=t& ... cles01.asp


Funny guy.

Indian Ocean is fast emerging as the new hot-spot of Sino-Indian rivalry.

Whether it is controlling piracy or use of sea resources, boats of the two countries face each other eyeball-to-eyeball.


Must be fishing boats. China loads theirs with spying equipment anyways.

Other than that I think China has sent ships to the Somali area. One ship?

It should let Indian Ocean remain the zone of peace.


Get rid of Pakistan.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gerard » 02 Jul 2009 04:03

It should let Indian Ocean remain the zone of peace


Err.. that is the purpose of Pax Indica

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby atma » 02 Jul 2009 08:02

Gerard wrote:
It should let Indian Ocean remain the zone of peace


Err.. that is the purpose of Pax Indica

http://pakobserver.net/200907/01/Articles01.asp
Amjed Jaaved

Indian Ocean is fast emerging as the new hot-spot of Sino-Indian rivalry.


This microcephalic idiot born of raped and forcibly converted ancestors, with his genes and brain muddled by ancestors marrying blood relatives does not realize that without the partition of India, and events since including massive duplicity, perfidy and incorrigible & habitual begging, with his "nation" becoming the meretricious "La Whore" to the US and China, the Indian ocean would be have been our front and back yard, and a region of peace with Indian hegemony and no inter-nation rivalry.
It is amazing that as their "nation" is failing they want to comment on things they created as a problem, generally pointing a finger to their motherland.

Makes me Puke cariously angry.

:twisted:
Last edited by atma on 02 Jul 2009 08:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby atma » 02 Jul 2009 08:06

Allright I will chill now :(

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Willy » 02 Jul 2009 09:06

India has a 30 year submarine building plan to build 24 submarines. With the number of subs proliferating in the neighbourhood that hardly seems enough.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 02 Jul 2009 09:35

When does the first Scorpene become operational?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Indrajit » 02 Jul 2009 09:54

2012 ideally but keeping in view our time management trac record 2015 seems more likely.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Willy » 02 Jul 2009 10:38

At the rate we are going we will be left with no subs before the scorpenes come online. Goodness knows when the second line will see the day of light.Only saving grace seems to be the Akula and the imminent trails of the ATV. But then they have been imminent for a few years now. Any idea if the ATV will go beyond the 3 numbers quoted anytime soon?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prashanth » 02 Jul 2009 13:08

Willy wrote:At the rate we are going we will be left with no subs before the scorpenes come online. Goodness knows when the second line will see the day of light.Only saving grace seems to be the Akula and the imminent trails of the ATV. But then they have been imminent for a few years now. Any idea if the ATV will go beyond the 3 numbers quoted anytime soon?


Why procure second line of subs at all? At $300 million per sub, scorpene is itself expensive. Another line of sub will definitely cost more. IMO, India should start manufacturing more ATVs. We already have the design. Only testing remains.
Given that the chinese are getting more and more adventerous at seas nowadays, I think we will need more than just diesel subs to have IOR in our grip.

As an aside, will it be difficult to scale down ATV and fit a diesel propulsion for the sub?
Im still wondering why we have to import diesel subs when we have developed the capability to build nuclear subs.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby AmitR » 02 Jul 2009 13:35

prashanth wrote:
Why procure second line of subs at all? At $300 million per sub, scorpene is itself expensive.
Im still wondering why we have to import diesel subs when we have developed the capability to build nuclear subs.


As Russel Peters says if we don't buy from the French "Somebudy Gonna get hurt real badd".
Indian arms deal are not for the armed forces but for the netas/babus/generals to add to their swiss bank account.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nirmal » 02 Jul 2009 14:24

Willy wrote:At the rate we are going we will be left with no subs before the scorpenes come online. Goodness knows when the second line will see the day of light.Only saving grace seems to be the Akula and the imminent trails of the ATV. But then they have been imminent for a few years now. Any idea if the ATV will go beyond the 3 numbers quoted anytime soon?

A total of FIVE 5 ATVs' are planned to be manufactured. Fitting of Nuclear Reactor in Scorpene sub is also on the anvil thereby converting it from deisel to Nuclear sub as the next logical step.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 02 Jul 2009 16:27

Nirmal wrote:A total of FIVE 5 ATVs' are planned to be manufactured. Fitting of Nuclear Reactor in Scorpene sub is also on the anvil thereby converting it from deisel to Nuclear sub as the next logical step.


Perhaps that could explain the extra pound of flesh by the French?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 02 Jul 2009 17:08

prashanth wrote:
Willy wrote:At the rate we are going we will be left with no subs before the scorpenes come online. Goodness knows when the second line will see the day of light.Only saving grace seems to be the Akula and the imminent trails of the ATV. But then they have been imminent for a few years now. Any idea if the ATV will go beyond the 3 numbers quoted anytime soon?


Why procure second line of subs at all? At $300 million per sub, scorpene is itself expensive. Another line of sub will definitely cost more. IMO, India should start manufacturing more ATVs. We already have the design. Only testing remains.
Given that the chinese are getting more and more adventerous at seas nowadays, I think we will need more than just diesel subs to have IOR in our grip.

As an aside, will it be difficult to scale down ATV and fit a diesel propulsion for the sub?
Im still wondering why we have to import diesel subs when we have developed the capability to build nuclear subs.

2nd line of subs will be far more than 300 million per sub scorpene is costing around 700+ million, need another line because putting too much faith in one design (Scorpene) is not a good idea. IIRC there already been some manufacturing issues with Scorpene. As for designing one locally original P-75 plan was to build submarines locally based off reverse engineered U-209 design but Scorpene, U-214 have far surpassed it in terms of technology especially its ICS hence we need to procure foreign design. That said i do agree that we should procured more U-209 (with improvement) built in MDL rather than Kilos in the 90s.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SanjibGhosh » 02 Jul 2009 18:08

Medvedev raps Russia shipmaker over late India deal

http://in.reuters.com/article/domesticN ... dChannel=0

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Yogi_G » 02 Jul 2009 18:16

NRao wrote:
Nirmal wrote:A total of FIVE 5 ATVs' are planned to be manufactured. Fitting of Nuclear Reactor in Scorpene sub is also on the anvil thereby converting it from deisel to Nuclear sub as the next logical step.


Perhaps that could explain the extra pound of flesh by the French?


If I remember correctly the Brazilians are already working on fitting a scorpene with a nuclear reactor, I am sure we can get all the lessons learnt from them to make our efforts quicker....

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shankar » 02 Jul 2009 18:20

What sort of diesel generators are the ones that are fitted as backup in nuclear submarines?


these are standard marine type diesel generator with turbo charging and snorkeling attachment used to charge up the batteries when nuclear reactors are not operational

They are used both to provide provide propulsive power during cruise (though the batteries ) as well as keep the coolant pumps of the reactor running to remove the core decay heat even when the reactor have been shut down . The radioactive decay of the reactor core takes palce all the time and this heat unless removed can lead to generation of local hot spots and may lead to reactor melt down .

The amount of nuclear fuel used depends on the type of fuel and type of submarine and of course reactor design itself . As a rule attack subs consume more fuel power ton of displaced weight than missile subs like ohio or typhoon

normally 7 -10% fuel rods are taken out every 3 years and new rods placed in its place .The rods nearest or forming the core get used up most so they are taken out and next layer of rods moved forward by one turn forward . Usaly the rods are arranged in concentric hexagons around the reactor core .

So a very rough guess for a 6000 ton attack sub like our ATV we may have to replace 300 -500 kg of enriched uranium rods (35% uranium)
during tri yearly refurbishment cycles .The burnt rods will be taken out -plutonium extracted and dumped in some safe place

Just my guess -nothing more nothing less

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bart » 02 Jul 2009 18:34

Nirmal wrote:
Willy wrote:At the rate we are going we will be left with no subs before the scorpenes come online. Goodness knows when the second line will see the day of light.Only saving grace seems to be the Akula and the imminent trails of the ATV. But then they have been imminent for a few years now. Any idea if the ATV will go beyond the 3 numbers quoted anytime soon?

A total of FIVE 5 ATVs' are planned to be manufactured. Fitting of Nuclear Reactor in Scorpene sub is also on the anvil thereby converting it from deisel to Nuclear sub as the next logical step.


Source?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Jul 2009 18:38

Medvedev urges completion of aircraft carrier for India

SEVERODVINSK, July 2 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian president said on Thursday that modernization of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier should be completed as soon as possible so that it can be delivered to India in 2012.

Dmitry Medvedev said the Gorshkov project had become, in effect, the only issue in Russian-Indian relations.

"This is the first, very difficult experience. The ship must be finished," he said. "Otherwise there will be serious consequences."

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prashanth » 02 Jul 2009 19:55

Yogi_G wrote:If I remember correctly the Brazilians are already working on fitting a scorpene with a nuclear reactor, I am sure we can get all the lessons learnt from them to make our efforts quicker....


Yes, we have to wait and watch. No good building diesel subs at $700 million per unit(wiki). If possible India should alter the scorpene deal to have nuclear propulsion for all the subs, given that only three of the subs are planned to have AIP as per the current deal( wiki). A nuclear scorpene at $700 million is somewhat a consolation as opposed to a diesel/AIP sub. At least we will have our own reactor for propulsion.

One more interesting thing is that the french navy itself doesn't operate a scorpene. :lol:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Jul 2009 20:55

Nice Shankar , what prevents us from using enriched Uranium rod which is above 90 % similar to what US does , which will be more power per rod and does not need to be replaced at a faster rate , why stick to 35 % as russians do or 25 % as french

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby viveks » 02 Jul 2009 22:12

SanjibGhosh wrote:Medvedev raps Russia shipmaker over late India deal

http://in.reuters.com/article/domesticN ... dChannel=0



Thank you mr president for expressing your displeasure. We hope to keep close partnerships in future endeavours....
:)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vavinash » 02 Jul 2009 22:15

Could be because the MMRCA competition and second line of subs are starting up. Has a design been selected for the P-17a's?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Willy » 02 Jul 2009 22:46

There was an article sometime back stating that the 17A's would be an indian design. Could just be DDM what with the RFP's out or was that just RFI's?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby viveks » 02 Jul 2009 22:56

I have a feeling that the MMRCA is not going to go the russian way. Instead..the older Mig-29s are going to be made Mig-35s....sort of upgrades.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Prabu » 02 Jul 2009 22:56

vavinash wrote:Could be because the MMRCA competition and second line of subs are starting up. Has a design been selected for the P-17a's?


Yes, obviously, The Russians seems to have understood business, at last ! and its Good for us !

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Willy » 02 Jul 2009 22:59

As much as we want the Rafale's its going to be the superhornet cause of the nuke deal though I sincerly hope not. Recent noises about the AESA being a must for the trials again point in that direction though the Rafale will have its own AESA to. For our friends the Russians its going to be a few more 29K's.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 03 Jul 2009 09:06

Austin wrote:Nice Shankar , what prevents us from using enriched Uranium rod which is above 90 % similar to what US does , which will be more power per rod and does not need to be replaced at a faster rate , why stick to 35 % as russians do or 25 % as french

Austin I have posted two PDF's on India's Uranium enrichment programme in the 'India Nuclear news and discussion' thread in gas and acid causing forum.It has all the relevant info with regards to the power plant for the ATV.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 03 Jul 2009 09:26

Negi sir thanks will check that out.

Ok one more Mr Medvedev , it seems that India must have told the Russian to either shape up or shove off ...... Mr President is lecturing every one :D

Medvedev urges to upgrade Admiral Gorshkov under deadline

SEVERODVINSK, July 2 (Itar-Tass) -- Russian President Dmitry Medvedev urged to complete the project of upgrading the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier for the Indian Navy under the deadline, which was agreed upon earlier and under the already coordinated parameters.


“This is a matter of prestige,” the president said at a meeting on the development of the Russian submarine forces on Thursday. “The project should be completed under the deadline that was agreed upon and under the coordinated parameters,” Medvedev underlined.


Medvedev noted that the contract for upgrading the aircraft carrier has no equals for sophisticated design solutions and the amount of works. “But we should complete this work,” the president said. All disputes (with Indian clients) should be settled. It is necessary to agree on the remaining unsettled parameters and complete the work,” Medvedev said.

Sevmash Director General Nikolai Kalistratov earlier noted that after the examination of all equipment and units the modernization of the aircraft carrier turned out to be much more expensive than it was earlier planned. “We had to replace all equipment, so, making the price going up dramatically,” he said with regret. Kalistratov noted that the plant would obligatorily finalize the project. “We have already decided and prepared everything regarding tests,” he said, adding that the Russian side would hold tests at first. After that Indian colleagues will continue the tests. The handover tests are scheduled for 2012.

With the necessary funding the Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk hopes to complete the modernization project and launch trial tests of the warship in 2011. The service life of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier will last at least 30 years.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 03 Jul 2009 09:31

bart wrote:
Nirmal wrote:A total of FIVE 5 ATVs' are planned to be manufactured. Fitting of Nuclear Reactor in Scorpene sub is also on the anvil thereby converting it from deisel to Nuclear sub as the next logical step.


Source?

Two-three BRFites having high level chaiwallahs seem to be saying the same thing...
Hope this is true.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 03 Jul 2009 09:45

Groshkov Construction activity on this video , shown during Medvedev visit to Sevmash
Groshkov at Sevmash

If the want to fit a small reactor inside the scorpene , then they will have to work with DCN to redesign it , the present design is for conventional submarine with a margin of growth built in to fit the MESMA AIP not a nuclear reactor which fundamentally alters a lot of thing.

The Scorpene though is a nice design to be converted into an SSN

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Prem » 03 Jul 2009 09:52

[quote="sumto Nuclear sub as the next logical step.[/quote]

Source?[/quote]
Two-three BRFites having high level chaiwallahs seem to be saying the same thing...
Hope this is true.[/quote]

Its logical. This is why Chinese are making noices now. Indian Navy with 3 carriers , ATVs and 300 fighters (SHs) will be very much in position to severe Chini Panda 's "jaguar" vein in case it get wrong idea.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby rakall » 03 Jul 2009 10:09

negi wrote:
Austin wrote:Nice Shankar , what prevents us from using enriched Uranium rod which is above 90 % similar to what US does , which will be more power per rod and does not need to be replaced at a faster rate , why stick to 35 % as russians do or 25 % as french

Austin I have posted two PDF's on India's Uranium enrichment programme in the 'India Nuclear news and discussion' thread in gas and acid causing forum.It has all the relevant info with regards to the power plant for the ATV.



please post here also..

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 03 Jul 2009 10:19

From ....India’s Gas Centrifuge Enrichment Program:Growing Capacity for Military Purposes......by David Albright and Susan Basu

India’s interest in naval reactors for submarines goes back decades. More recently, it has concentrated on operating a naval propulsion prototype reactor near Kalpakkam and launching an indigenous nuclear-powered submarine that will use a miniaturized version of this reactor. The naval reactor program, codenamed the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV), is surrounded by secrecy. BARC is reported to be responsible for building the reactor, and military organizations and associated contractors are responsible for building everything else in the submarine.

In August 2006, The Hindu reported that the ATV’s naval prototype reactor at Kalpakkam was fully operational and running at its full capacity of 100 megawatts.16 Most media reports had stated that the naval prototype reactor would have a power of about 40-55 megawatts-thermal and would use HEU enriched to between 20 and 40 percent. Some reports, however, stated a greater power of between 90 and 150 megawatts-thermal. It is likely that the reactor started around 2004.

The purpose of this reactor is likely to test reactor concepts and fuel and to train operators of the submarine reactor. As a result, the prototype reactor core probably does not contain as much fuel as a naval reactor on a submarine. Submarine reactors are usually designed to hold as much fuel as practical to reduce the need to refuel the reactor. The prototype reactor would require about 30-60 kilograms of fresh uranium 235 each year, assuming that it operates at full power for 25-50 percent of the year.18 If this fuel is 30 percent enriched, the annual requirement would be 100-200 kilograms of HEU per year.19 Thus, the production of 100-200 kilograms of HEU enriched to 30 percent would require roughly 5,600-11,000 SWU per year.

The RMP most likely produces HEU for submarine reactor cores. The Indian submarine reactor is assumed to have a reactor with a total power of about 100 megawatts-thermal.To increase the time between refueling of the submarines to about 5 years, the submarine reactor would require about 100 kilograms of uranium 235 in HEU enriched to 30 percent, or about 330 kilograms of HEU.Production of this amount of HEU would require about 18,500 SWU. This HEU is assumed to be produced over five years, for an average annual requirement of about 3,700 SWU per year.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 03 Jul 2009 10:34

And something for the Jingo log to chew on..

India's Uranium Enrichment Programme....M.V. Ramana

Its just 4 pages and a good read fwiw.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 03 Jul 2009 10:38

Btw Rak man you don't visit the HANGAR often these days :) ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby rakall » 03 Jul 2009 11:01

negi wrote:And something for the Jingo log to chew on..

India's Uranium Enrichment Programme....M.V. Ramana

Its just 4 pages and a good read fwiw.



Thanks a lot


negi wrote:Btw Rak man you don't visit the HANGAR often these days :) ?


Not much of a chance.. My 9month old "Tejas" is keeping me busy these days...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 03 Jul 2009 13:16

negi wrote:In August 2006, The Hindu reported that the ATV’s naval prototype reactor at Kalpakkam was fully operational and running at its full capacity of 100 megawatts.16 Most media reports had stated that the naval prototype reactor would have a power of about 40-55 megawatts-thermal and would use HEU enriched to between 20 and 40 percent. Some reports, however, stated a greater power of between 90 and 150 megawatts-thermal. It is likely that the reactor started around 2004.


A ~ 55 MWt will yeald a ~ 9 MWe should that be sufficient to power the ~ 6000T ATV assuming the ~ 6K ton is the submerged displacement ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 03 Jul 2009 14:07

The only true AIP sub is a nuclear sub.This is the opinion of many in the IN too.Therefore,unless an AIP sub comes at a reasonable price...and only the Russians with the Amur/Lada seem able to do,The IT should accelerate the production of several ATV SSGN class subs.However,to make up numbers ,we need to augment the existing conventional fleet very quickly and the best way is to buy what is available from Russia,Brahmos equipped conventional AIP subs.The Scorpenes are expensive and integrating Brahmos will be difficult.The option of adding a nuclear reactor "plug" to the Scorpene or any other new design,perhaps what is being designed for Brazil,has to be seen bioth from the tech angle and the cost angle.With the Turkish-German agreement for production of 6 U-214s,the road is now open for the Pak acquisition/building in Pak of the same as planned.Therefore,an IN with about 8-10 nuclear subs will have a significant advantage over any Pak fleet and will be the minimum needed to deter the huge PLAN sub fleet which will only get larger and employ more SSGNS and SSBNs.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 03 Jul 2009 14:17

I think it would be a mistake if we go for Amur or German design as 2nd line of sub , there is no advantage of operating two different types from Western and Russia as it creates a logistics nightmare.

It is better to work with DCN and design a modified but larger version of Scorpene design with AIP and VLS capability , with as much possible as commonality with the Scorpene design , this would save on logistics , weapons , training and support facility at shore .

For AIP we can go for MESMA initially with an Indian Fuel Cell AIP is available.

Rationalisation and Standardisation is the need of we consider these subs will operate for the next 25 years.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Jul 2009 14:18

if DCN can put the rubis amethyste class into a scorpene hull for brazil , why not continue with the scorpene investment and build our future scorpenes as nuclear. as a relatively small vessel
its suitable for littoral warfare compared to 5-6000t full sized ATV.


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