Indian Naval Discussion

Naidu · Post by **Naidu** » 24 Jun 2009 01:23

Interesting that I'm demoted back to "Trainee" after being around for a long time. The post count (on which the designations are based) also went below 100 suddenly.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 Jun 2009 04:25

Naidu, there is pruning of the forum going on. As the trash can is emptied, the post count goes down. and along with that the designation

Vinito · Post by **Vinito** » 24 Jun 2009 04:35

Found some information related to the features and performance related to the Akula 1 & 2 series of submarines.

AKULA
General Specifications
Country: Russia
Class: AKULA I, IMPROVED AKULA I and AKULA II (BARS) (TYPE 971)
Displacement:
surfaced: 7,500 t
submerged: 9,100 t
Dimensions
Length, overall:
Akula I/Improved Akula I: 110 m (360.1 ft)
Akula II: 114.0 m (374.0 ft)
Beam: 14 m (45.9 ft)
Draught: 10.4 m (34.1 ft)
Speed, submerged: 28 kts
Diving depth: 400 m (1,300 ft)
Complement: 85

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 24 Jun 2009 05:52

Missing sailor: ‘Navy backtracked on word to provide probe report’

A slightly dated article from RN's site,

Indian Navy Task Group Arrives For Exercise Konkan

Mayura · Post by **Mayura** » 24 Jun 2009 16:14

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=10931

So what are we (IN) gonna do about this?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2009 20:12

Mayura wrote: Mighty dragon in the sea

So what are we (IN) gonna do about this?

More chai, more biscuts.

On the flip side India should be thankful that the CPI is no longer a worthwhile political party in India - they seemed to be one of the most active pro-China parties in India. In my estimation the harm they seem to have done is reversible, but they cannot come into national limelight again.

India wants a 160 ship navy. China perhaps can deploy that many in IOR by herself in about 20 years!

IMHO, besides getting a better navy, India has to work much harder to get those "pearls" unstrung.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 24 Jun 2009 20:23

NRao wrote:
KrishG wrote:Shiv Aroor's blog says that Boeing/Bell are going to present V-22 Osprey to the Indian Navy for ship-borne AEW&C platform.

Dec, 2006 :: New Delhi to step up contest for new reconnaissance platforms, while INTEREST in V-22 Osprey emerges

This interest in all type of US weapons is dangerous,
v22 is fit for usa alone and is costly and has some maintenance issues with high maintenance costs as well,,.our mi-17 and other low cost russian birds are also not too bad to give the inspection rights of the basic transport fleet to americans., that's pity .
also it is not confirmed that whether usa will buy v22 in bulk as a long substitute for its ground support fleet.
I could only bang my head if defence babus purchase it even after knowing this.

arjun_vs · Post by **arjun_vs** » 24 Jun 2009 21:14

Vinito wrote:Found some information related to the features and performance related to the Akula 1 & 2 series of submarines.

AKULA
General Specifications
Country: Russia
Class: AKULA I, IMPROVED AKULA I and AKULA II (BARS) (TYPE 971)
Displacement:
surfaced: 7,500 t
submerged: 9,100 t
Dimensions
Length, overall:
Akula I/Improved Akula I: 110 m (360.1 ft)
Akula II: 114.0 m (374.0 ft)
Beam: 14 m (45.9 ft)
Draught: 10.4 m (34.1 ft)
Speed, submerged: 28 kts
Diving depth: 400 m (1,300 ft)
Complement: 85

Does somebody know our own ATV's specs.....?
I must admit i didn't search the whole thread for this info, so advance apologies if its already discussed.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2009 21:28

Samay wrote: This interest in all type of US weapons is dangerous,
v22 is fit for usa alone and is costly and has some maintenance issues with high maintenance costs as well,,.our mi-17 and other low cost russian birds are also not too bad to give the inspection rights of the basic transport fleet to americans., that's pity .
also it is not confirmed that whether usa will buy v22 in bulk as a long substitute for its ground support fleet.
I could only bang my head if defence babus purchase it even after knowing this.

The concern should be there. However, if one can trust a F-35 to land vertically, perhaps there could be tech upgrades in 2009/10 that could make the V-22 more reliable.

In Iraq. Refueling.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 24 Jun 2009 21:41

NRao wrote:
Samay wrote: This interest in all type of US weapons is dangerous,
v22 is fit for usa alone and is costly and has some maintenance issues with high maintenance costs as well,,.our mi-17 and other low cost russian birds are also not too bad to give the inspection rights of the basic transport fleet to americans., that's pity .
also it is not confirmed that whether usa will buy v22 in bulk as a long substitute for its ground support fleet.
I could only bang my head if defence babus purchase it even after knowing this.
The concern should be there. However, if one can trust a F-35 to land vertically, perhaps there could be tech upgrades in 2009/10 that could make the V-22 more reliable.

In Iraq. Refueling.

well said sir, V-22 is a new technology and it would take its time before US can master its technology and try to optimize the performance.
I believe that it would make an excellent ASW platform for Indian navy for use on its carriers including Vikramaditya.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 24 Jun 2009 21:54

Hi,
As promised here are the pics @ http://khambat-dagha.blogspot.com/
I am now not sure whether ship is P-17 or Talwar

Regards,
Khambat Dagha

maz · Post by **maz** » 24 Jun 2009 22:07

KD, thanks 4 the pics. As you have surmised, it is indeed the Krivak/ Tabar.

It is easy to mistake the Krivak for the Shivalik given the similar forward arrangement of the two ships. The Shivalik is actually berthed at MpT. No worries, pictures of her will be released before too long. After all, what is another month or two after waiting for several years?

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 24 Jun 2009 22:07

KBDagha wrote:Hi,
As promised here are the pics @ http://khambat-dagha.blogspot.com/
I am now not sure whether ship is P-17 or Talwar

Regards,
Khambat Dagha

I think it's a Talwar-class frigate. The radar dome is very much different from that of Shivalik-class frigates. Pretty sure that they are not P-17s.

Sontu · Post by **Sontu** » 24 Jun 2009 23:47

^^^ One difference between two class is very quickly noticeable is that Shivalik class has a Oto Melara 76mm SRGM, mounted on a stealth cupola where as the Talwars class has a has one 100-mm A-190 (E) gun on a conventional mount.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 25 Jun 2009 05:24

Navy gets nod to court martial officer

A sessions court on Wednesday gave its order on an application filed by the Navy seeking to court martial one of its officers, arrested for allegedly stabbing his colleague’s wife in February this year. Passing the order, Principal judge M T Joshi sent the case back to a metropolitan magistrate, before whom the Navy will seek custody of its officer R A Chandran.
...

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 25 Jun 2009 08:57

Maz,
I have higher resolution pics. Each around 2.5MB. Let me know if you want.

Regards,
Khambat Dagha.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 25 Jun 2009 09:50

India to build 7 stealth frigates worth $9 billion

As India Defence Online reported today, India will pump in $9 billion to manufacture seven advanced stealth frigates for the Indian Navy at shipyards in Kolkata and Mumbai. Being one of the landmark indigenous defence deals, this ambitious project called the P17 A warship project will give India its most advanced stealth frigates. The project has been cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC).

Interestingly, the Indian Navy had issued a Request for Information (RFI) in 2007 to international ship manufacturers including French DCNS, Italian Fincantieri, American firms Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman besides shipyards in Russia and Korea to manufacture the frigates. However, the two Indian shipyards, namely Mazagon Dock Limited, Mumbai (MDL) and the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE), Kolkata, insisted that t all the frigates could be manufactured indigenously and there was no need to outsource the warships.

DAC has clearly ruled out the possibility of any foreign manufacturer and the indigenously designed P-17 A frigates will be manufactured in Mazagon Dock Limited, Mumbai (MDL) and the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE), Kolkata. The P17A frigates will be even more advanced than the P17 Shivalik class warships that are currently being inducted by the Indian Navy.

It may be noted that the P-17 A warship project will apply modular manufacturing. The frigates will be put together using 300-ton blocks that will be fitted together, similar to the construction style used to manufacture the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) in Kochi.

According to the Defence Ministry, the frigates are expected to be inducted by 2021. The project is expected to start by 2011 when both GRSE and MDL complete an upgrade which will enable them to start modular construction and the first frigate will roll out approximately four years after the project work is initiated.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 25 Jun 2009 14:12

Apparently we missed this
Indian Navy Task Group arrives at Portsmouth for Exercise Konkan 09June 18th, 2009

The Indian Navy Task Group, led by the 6,700 ton destroyer INS Delhi arrived in Portsmouth on Wednesday 17 June 2009, to take part in exercise Konkan with the Royal Navy.
Konkan 09 is the first to be conducted in UK waters and will be focused on Portsmouth with the sea phase taking place in the south coast exercise areas and the south west approaches.
The visiting Indian task group is under the command of Admiral Surinder Pal Singh Cheema, the Flag Officer Commanding Indian Western Fleet, based in Mumbai. Joining the INS Delhi in Portsmouth will be the frigates INS Beas and Brahmaputra and the tanker INS Aditya.

UK participants, commanded by Commodore Simon Ancona, include the frigates HMS Westminster and HMS Northumberland, the nuclear powered submarine HMS Trafalgar, the auxiliaries RFA Mounts Bay and RFA Fort Rosalie and an RAF Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft.

Where is the foreign deployments and exercises thread?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 25 Jun 2009 14:37

It has gone to second page. Here is the link

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=3&t=3741

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 26 Jun 2009 12:00

thanks a lot krishnan

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jun 2009 12:33

tsarkar wrote:Here you go Austin
Detailed technical description http://www.iitk.ac.in/infocell/announce ... kondia.pdf

Thanks , but I could not find what was the depth rating for DMR-249B , they have mentioned IN and ATVP so most likely DMR-249B would be the pressure hull for ATV

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 26 Jun 2009 18:00

Russia to take part in Indian diesel submarine tender

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090626/155359644.html

Russia will participate in an expected tender to supply diesel-electric submarines to the Indian navy, the Russian state arms exporter said on Friday."We will offer India an export version of the Lada class diesel submarine - the Amur class vessel. We will take part in the Indian tender when it is announced with these submarines or vessels of another class," said Oleg Azizov, head of Rosoboronexport's delegation at the International Maritime Defense Show 2009 in St. Petersburg........................................The Project-677, or Lada class, diesel submarine, whose export version is known as the Amur 1650, features a new anti-sonar coating for its hull, an extended cruising range, and advanced anti-ship and anti-submarine weaponry, including the Club-S integrated cruise missile systems.................

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 26 Jun 2009 18:03

Russian firm pledges to deliver frigates to India on schedule

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090626/155360103.html

Russia will fulfill its obligations on schedule to supply three Project 11356 frigates to India by 2012, a shipbuilding industry official said on Friday. Russia is building three Project 11356 Krivak IV class guided missile frigates for the Indian Navy at the Yantar shipyard in Russia's Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad as part of a $1.6 billion contract signed in July, 2006.............................."The first ship will be floated out this year, the second, probably, in spring 2010, and the third - a bit later," he said, adding that the Indian government had provided sufficient and timely project financing........................All of the new frigates will be armed with eight BrahMos supersonic anti-ship cruise missile systems and not the Club-N/3M54TE missile system, which was installed on previous frigates.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 26 Jun 2009 20:42

Russian firm pledges to deliver frigates to India on schedule

ST. PETERSBURG, June 26 (RIA Novosti) - Russia will fulfill its obligations on schedule to supply three Project 11356 frigates to India by 2012, a shipbuilding industry official said on Friday

Russia is building three Project 11356 Krivak IV class guided missile frigates for the Indian Navy at the Yantar shipyard in Russia's Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad as part of a $1.6 billion contract signed in July, 2006.

All of the new frigates will be armed with eight BrahMos supersonic anti-ship cruise missile systems and not the Club-N/3M54TE missile system, which was installed on previous frigates.

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 27 Jun 2009 01:26

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/S ... +AEW-2.jpg

See the V-22 based AEW offered to Royal Navy to operate from Queen Elizabeth

I think it fits well for operations off Vikramaditya and Vikrant instead of E2D Advanced Hawkeye which reportedly cannot operate on STOBAR Carriers

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Jun 2009 01:51

It just may be that they are trying to offload those to the IN? Perhaps the same as the EFs?

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 27 Jun 2009 02:19

soutikghosh wrote:What is the difference between USN P-8 and IN's P-8I.

Just for you reposting my earlier post which was lost in the useless and senseless chatter by Anderw Dicristo???

http://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416085726&o=ext

See page 100

Quote:
The Indian configuration calls for an aft-facing radar in addition to the nose radar to achieve 360º coverage, and a depth charge has been added to the weapons load. The Indian Navy has also asked that the Magnetic Anomaly Detector, which the US Navy deleted in oder to save about 3500 pounds, be retained on their aircraft.

The one item still being worked out is the release of the active anti-missile defense system, which contains a directed IR countermeasures module from Northrop Grumman. The technology remains a sensitive issue, and the international sale of this item is currently being discussed with the US.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 27 Jun 2009 10:30

eh101 is a good option for ship-borne aew. Last i checked its UK's choice. Not sure if they are going to fund an osprey.

mv22 aew seems far fetched considering that the us navy won't support it in aew form.

Why would a nuke carrier with em catapults want a mv22.

India should follow wait-and-watch approach here and not rush into the unknown.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Jun 2009 10:42

Drevin wrote:eh101 is a good option for ship-borne aew. Last i checked its UK's choice. Not sure if they are going to fund an osprey.

mv22 aew seems far fetched considering that the us navy won't support it in aew form. Why would a nuke carrier with em catapults want a mv22.

India should follow wait-and-watch approach here and not rush into the unknown. Actually a land-based saras aew seems less far fetched.

Drevin saar,

The Saras has a fair ways to go for any kind of operations.

An AEW version will only further complicate the pusher envelope.

The continued absence of a forward wing on the Saras, a la the Beach Starship or the Avanti P-180 is intriguing.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 27 Jun 2009 13:04

Was trying some relative speak .... mv22 aew is not going to be funded. Anyway you will notice my post is changed before you could post

Anywayz the eh101 is the way to go for IN. If its too big the best bet would be a AMH variant of the ALH

I cant imagine India funding the mv22 aew and buying it

Just wild

C17 is understandable .... but an india-funded mv22 aew is very close to stupidity. Just a few months ago there was an article in deccan about interest in land based aew e2d hawkeye.

jmt

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 27 Jun 2009 17:22

The advantage of the V22 or any helicopter based AEW is that it can move with the carrier battle group. The shore based AEW platforms has the limitations to operate at distances for a credible period of time.

The Eh-101 is a good AEW platform. but what advantage will it bring over our existing KA-31?
The V-22 can move with the fighter's. Also notice in the picture the V-22 refuelling a F-35. Could be of interest to the navy.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2009 18:57

unless we develop a new heliborne avionics AEW suite or pick some israeli/eu soln based off a NH90 airframe, I dont see anything but more KA31-AEW. Rus will flatly refuse to see just the radar and avionics for us, citing loss of sensitive tech to nato.

Longer term I think a shorter variant of the EMB-145 phased array radar and a downlink module
stuck to a NH90 (if we get the new medium heli contract inked) would be best and most
maintainable soln.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 27 Jun 2009 19:43

Summary of Indian Navy modernization-Article
http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/article.aspx?id=3965

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 27 Jun 2009 21:24

The V-22 can move with the fighter's. Also notice in the picture the V-22 refuelling a F-35. Could be of interest to the navy.

vishnu have you heard of buddy-buddy refuelling

There is a refuelling variant of the superhornet. Current carriers dont have any dedicated carrier-based tanker. Also the f35c is the naval f35. HAs tremendous fuel carrying capability internally. Imagine if it carried external drop tanks too .....

Secondly shipborne aew is a major asset for any carrier. I dont know how far IN will go with this mv22 concept. And as pointed out we have brand new ka31's.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 27 Jun 2009 21:37

MOU signed between PHHL & Indian Navy
http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=49437

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Jun 2009 21:58

Ka-31 are really limited AEW assets. if it is feasible in terms of maintenance and reliability (which I doubt) the osprey would be a great AEW asset for IN.

what I mean is it has potential, if that can be realised within any realistic timeframe is another matter altogether. osprey will also be good for SF ops.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 27 Jun 2009 22:20

The V-22 is too big for a piddly 40000 tonne carrier. Its wingspan is 14 m, i.e wider than a mig-29k and cannot be folded. I can't see IN paying for its development either.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 27 Jun 2009 22:24

Buddy-buddy refuelling is there of course on our Mig29-k's. I know that, what about our NLCA?
what about ASW helicopters?

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 27 Jun 2009 22:26

vavinash, the V-22 can be folded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:V-22_ ... otated.jpg

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 27 Jun 2009 22:40

I used to know a group of engineer businessmen. During the initial stages when the military was seeking to modernize their lift capability, these group of experts came up with a design that competed with the Osprey's designers for the contract. Well, in the end they lost in their bid and the Osprey's team went on and got their billions of dollars worth of contract. However, when the Osprey's were droppping from the sky like the real osprey droppings, these guys would joke what a crappy design it was and that the only reason its team got the contract was due to "connections" both in the Defense Department and the Congressional Oversight Committee at that time.

To this day these guys insist that their design is far superior that the Osprey. I have no way of ascertaining their claim except that they are my friends. They all retired with very high military ranks including a few as generals and they all are qualified engineers with many years working in the aerospace field including under the legendary Kelly Johnson at Skunk Works.

What I am trying to say is that.....FORGET ABOUT THE OSPREY. They may have patched up many of its problems but it is still a patched up job.
Avram