Indian Naval Discussion

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 07 Jul 2009 22:17

naird wrote:Hows that possible ?? Always thought that the aircraft radar should be on to guide the mijhiles .....!!!! Can someone shed light on this ?

Also can phalcon guide missiles then ? Example :- Su 30 radar is switched off and plane is guided by phalcon , su 30 fires missiles and then phalcon takes over the guidance system. Is this possible ? I thought the answer is NO ....
derby is an active radar homing missile (ARH) which means it has its own radar(known commonly as seekers) to guide it to its target.

however, on-board missile seekers do not have the range for the whole envelope of a BVR missile, i.e a BVR missile can have a range of 50-90 km but its seeker has a range of only about 20 odd km.
therefore, the mother aircraft feeds in target information to the missile before launching it(previously this information could only come from the aircraft's radar, nowadays this info can be passed on by other radar platforms active in the area by datalink. I would hazard a guess that this is what the article is talking about) and the missile is guided by its on-board inertial navigational system to the approximate location of the target.

if the target has not managed to move out of the missiles field of view when it has reached the ~ 20 km kill zone (the proverbial 'break the lock') the missile will activate its onboard seeker and home on to the target.

obviously, there is a glaring drawback in the above scenario, a modern fighter aircraft is a very dynamic object and by the time a long range ARH missile reaches the box the target would be long gone from its view !

hence an ARH missile's range would have to be very limited if it uses only the above method.

solution : mid-course guidance using datalink. if you constantly update the missile with target information on its way to the 'box' it will have a much higher chance of actually reaching the appropriate place and time to annihilate the target. AFAIK, in all in-service a/c in the world right now, this can only be done with the mothership (err aircraft), i.e the mother a/c can receive updates from its assets and pass on that to the already flying missile.

now this too, or so the crystal gazers say can be done with an AWACS ! IOW an inactive(radar-off) platform will simply fire a missile while it will be entirely guided by active radar assets flying well away from harm's way !
saggu ji's idea is not that far fetched after all !

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby naird » 07 Jul 2009 23:31

Rahul M wrote:
naird wrote:solution : mid-course guidance using datalink. if you constantly update the missile with target information on its way to the 'box' it will have a much higher chance of actually reaching the appropriate place and time to annihilate the target. AFAIK, in all in-service a/c in the world right now, this can only be done with the mothership (err aircraft), i.e the mother a/c can receive updates from its assets and pass on that to the already flying missile.

now this too, or so the crystal gazers say can be done with an AWACS ! IOW an inactive(radar-off) platform will simply fire a missile while it will be entirely guided by active radar assets flying well away from harm's way !
saggu ji's idea is not that far fetched after all !



Thanks Rahul ..

Even if we assume that missile will be fired in the general direction of a target , how would the pilot know which direction to fire the missile in , in other words since this time radar will be switched off and target being BVR, pilot will not know the target location or cordinates.

Will AWACS or some other platform tell which direction to fire the missile in ? Maybe this is what the article is telling.

Also, as you rightly pointed out this type of scenario will be applicable only in case of stationary target or maybe a seaborne target. When fighter plane comes into picture then missile would need constant guidance.

Secondly a pretty naive question , does all our missiles have capability to receive datalink information ? Is that like a standard feature in missiles ? If missiles do have that capability then what would be the challenge of providing a constant guidance from a data linked aircraft to a missile ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Jul 2009 03:25

Rahul,

The scenario you describe seems to be somewhere near the ball park. The rafale (based on arthuro's posts on AFM) can in fact do MCU sans the radar and launch the mica IIR entirely passive @ BVR ranges. Nasty piece of work really, the enemy a/c won't have a clue. In case of the Shar in the IN, it will mean going v.close to seeker range before firing the shot/s. my guess. How far is that useful, esp. with a slowpoke like the Shar?

CM.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby putnanja » 08 Jul 2009 06:13

All set for a quiet launch of India’s first indigenous nuclear submarine

Posting in full as it has quite a bit of info.

More than two decades after it was conceived, India’s first indigenously built nuclear submarine, for long called the Advanced Technology Vehicle project, is set for a quiet launch towards the end of this month. Christened INS Chakra after the Charlie class nuclear submarine taken on lease from the Soviet Union in 1988 for three years, it will be put out in the waters of the Bay of Bengal in Visakhapatnam harbour for sea trials.

Top government sources told The Indian Express that the Navy has been cleared for two more 7,000 tonne-Chakra class submarines with an in-principle clearance for another two of the same class. Completing the nuclear triad as envisaged in the Indian nuclear doctrine, INS Chakra will carry intermediate range submarine-launched missiles that have already been tested twice on the eastern coast.

The submarine was scheduled to be launched on July 26 but the date has now been changed because it also happens to be Kargil Victory Day and the government has no intention of sending any message to the neighbourhood. As of now, the plan is to quietly launch the submarine without fanfare or overt publicity. Even Defence Minister A K Antony is not expected to be present for the launch.

It will be nearly a year before the Chakra class submarine can take to the sea as the nuclear engine and its super structure will undergo rigorous tests in a special enclosure in the Vizag shipyard. For now, it will be put out in the waters, checked, fitted with parts and then put through tests in the waters. The tests and fitments over, it will be formally commissioned towards the end of next year.

Launched in the mid-1980s, the ATV project is now headed by Vice Admiral B Kanan whose wife Nirmala, incidentally, is the younger sister of Indian Ambassador to China and Foreign Secretary-designate Nirupama Rao. The submarine is going to be tested on India’s eastern seaboard and earlier plans of moving it to Karwar in Goa have been shelved for the time being. Instead, the first of the two Russian Akula class nuclear submarines that India is taking on lease will be deployed on the western seaboard.

The Chakra class submarine bridges a key gap in India’s minimum nuclear deterrence as the armed forces already have platforms for nuclear weapon delivery from sky and land through proven intermediate range nuclear missiles and aircraft-borne bombs.

The need for a nuclear submarine was felt by New Delhi as Beijing is moving towards a sea-based doctrine and already has one Xia class and two Jin class nuclear submarines with JL-1 and 2 series submarine-launched nuclear missiles. Each of these submarines carries up to 12 JL-1 or 2 strategic missiles. Even Pakistan has eight tactical submarines that have deep sea diving capability with advanced air propulsion and Harpoon missiles.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 08 Jul 2009 06:41

Instead, the first of the two Russian Akula class nuclear submarines that India is taking on lease will be deployed on the western seaboard.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 08 Jul 2009 09:20

The submarine was scheduled to be launched on July 26 but the date has now been changed because it also happens to be Kargil Victory Day and the government has no intention of sending any message to the neighbourhood. As of now, the plan is to quietly launch the submarine without fanfare or overt publicity. Even Defence Minister A K Antony is not expected to be present for the launch.

WTF is wrong with our netas? :x :x

I can only pray that they at least release pics/vids of the launch.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Indrajit » 08 Jul 2009 09:21

NRao wrote:
Instead, the first of the two Russian Akula class nuclear submarines that India is taking on lease will be deployed on the western seaboard.



Another DDM :) IN will receive one Akula II.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 08 Jul 2009 09:23

sum wrote:WTF is wrong with our netas? :x :x

I can only pray that they at least release pics/vids of the launch.

Its called talking softly but carrying a big stick!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Virupaksha » 08 Jul 2009 09:24

sum wrote:
The submarine was scheduled to be launched on July 26 but the date has now been changed because it also happens to be Kargil Victory Day and the government has no intention of sending any message to the neighbourhood. As of now, the plan is to quietly launch the submarine without fanfare or overt publicity. Even Defence Minister A K Antony is not expected to be present for the launch.

WTF is wrong with our netas? :x :x

I can only pray that they at least release pics/vids of the launch.

shhh, you could be booked under OSA. AFAIK Officially there is no such project as ATV :P :twisted:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby parshuram » 08 Jul 2009 10:45

If ATV is INS chakra then what will akula be christened and my my ... two akula's :D :D

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shiv » 08 Jul 2009 11:02

ravi_ku wrote:Officially there is no such project as ATV


False. Ati Tasty Vanaspati (ATV) is a well known brand in India.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 08 Jul 2009 11:29

rakall wrote:Yes.. this is what they are likely to do in this test..

But.. the datalink is not basic.. SHAR's have a proper ODL -- which can transmit complete "realtime radar picture" from one a/c to the other which is in RF-silence..

A single SHAR can illuminate a target or target-ship formation and relay the complete radar picture to a bunch of SHAR's which can pick their own target in the target-ship formation and take multiple shots.. Even a MKI can illuminate the targets and relay it to any ODL equipped fighter a/c... the ODL will become a standard feature across all IAF fighter a/c - I think, HAL Hyderabad is working on this... but basically all the modules will come from Yehudi land..


Rakall , yes the realtime radar pictures are just what they transmit and as I have said this is not really a new thing but has existed since decades , may be its a new thing for SHAR , but as you have mentioned correctly the MKI can do that as well.

And AFAIK Mig-31 was the first aircraft to perfect this art in early 90's exploiting their long reach of radar and equally long reach of their AAM.

But i have grave doubts of offboard sensors like awacs or ground based MFCR can help in there or provide MCG for AAM , the primary sensors till now for such trick is still the aircraft sensors , and radars like BARS , IRBIS or APG-77 can fully exploit their range when playing this trick.

But again if the opposing party has supported AWACS or similar long reach radar , then he will get the picture , unless you have a stealthy AC like F-22 playing the trick , or the painting aircraft flying high and the others low and exploiting the ground clutter to its benefit.

But all said and done with the right tactics this is a neat trick to have up your sleeve.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Jul 2009 11:39

hopefully someone like shiv aroor can atleast obtain pix of the 'soft launch'

when she joins IN formally next yr, I am sure there will be a public ceremony and smashing of wine bottle on the hull by the chief guests wife etc. they even did that for seawolf and daring class though not for F117 and aurora :((

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 08 Jul 2009 11:52

smashing of wine bottle on the hull by the chief guests wife etc

SDRE coconut only !

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 08 Jul 2009 12:28

Soft talk, big stick etc is ok but:
The submarine was scheduled to be launched on July 26 but the date has now been changed because it also happens to be Kargil Victory Day and the government has no intention of sending any message to the neighbourhood.

This is a nonsense reason if true(and i think it is).

Will we stop flying our Su-30s on July 26 since it might send wrong signals since it happens to be Vijay Diwas? :-?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby krishnan » 08 Jul 2009 12:33

ATV is different from Su-30, but yes it sounds stupid, the way they want to do it

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby rkhanna » 08 Jul 2009 13:27

Another DDM IN will receive one Akula II.


While various sources today insist that only ONE Akulla II class will be leased. Back in 2004 a high up IN Officer told me that the IN was interested in 2 Akulla IIs. While ofcourse the Eco-Political situation has changed between India and Russia (With Russia seeing a big rise in Mil expenditure) there is or was some truth to the above statement. (Though out dated)

However its nice to see that the ATV has expanded from the proposed 3 Boats to 5 now. Are the plans for an SSBN conversion/upgrade to the ATV class still on?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 08 Jul 2009 13:36

With both the RN and RAF sending their Sea Harriers and GR. Harriers operating from their carriers into an untimely retirement,thanks to drastic budget cuts,the IN has an excellent option to acquire as many of these which can be picked up at reasonable cots.The aircraft have at least another 10-15 years of life in them,and with the LUSH upgrades,will be particularly useful for any future flattops of the IN apart from any flattop amphibious vessels built.Since the naval variant of the LCA has yet to fly,the Harriers will be an excellent companion for the MIG-29Ks aboard the Gorshkov/Vik as well.

An interesting Q,from the report on the ATV/Akulas,where on the west coast will the Akula be based?The ideal base for it is at Karwar,as Bombay is too congested,but does Karwar already have the neccessary infrastructure to support a nuclear sub of this class? Bombay with the nuclear facilities at Trombay is more practical though.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shankar » 08 Jul 2009 14:05

well the news about 2 akulas is correct to great extent

the gorky package included 2 akulas and 4/6 backfires

there is no reason why india will settle for one since gorky price extra have been agreed up on

The akulas will be based in vizag niot karwar -karwar is for the scorpenes and pak specific or agosta specific

Akulas are china specific to keep the sea lanes of indian ocean open they will surely be based in vizag with kilos

question is what happened to half a dozen backfires -have the already come ??quitely

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 08 Jul 2009 15:00

Tanaji wrote:Rakesh should at least get a custom cake made in the shape of an Akula, cut it up, and send it to the members.


I am waiting for the 8,000 - 9,000 T of mithai.

By the way is it 8,000 - 9,000 T fro whole BR or 8,000 - 9,000 T per member !!!!

K

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vavinash » 08 Jul 2009 15:19

I don't think IN would waste time and money on backfires anymore. The Tu-142 itself is a maintenance nightmare. Its time IN standardized on LRMP's (P-8I) and MRMP's ( Embraer or some other platform). Maintaining just 4-6 backfires would be a tremendous waste of time and money.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shankar » 08 Jul 2009 16:02

tU 22 is not patrol aircraft nor is it meant for anti sub operation like 142/p 8 etc .

It is an out and out strategic offensive weapon system to take out a carrier group far from ones shores with nuke tipped missiles ( you can guess which country i am referring to and that is not china ). It need no fly all the time just the bare minimum like the Mg 25 we had and sued only when the 142/phalcon says they are needed .

It can be used for deep pentration strike as well with a punishing land attack load

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nrshah » 08 Jul 2009 16:18

Shankar wrote:tU 22 is not patrol aircraft nor is it meant for anti sub operation like 142/p 8 etc .

It is an out and out strategic offensive weapon system


Sir,

Wont it be better if we go for tu 160 rather than tu22? Tu 22 is very old and i am not sure if it can actually carry out task effectively.


-Nitin
Last edited by nrshah on 08 Jul 2009 16:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nihat » 08 Jul 2009 16:24

not in this thread nitin , please take it to the military aviation thread.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby amit » 08 Jul 2009 16:34

sum wrote:Soft talk, big stick etc is ok but:
The submarine was scheduled to be launched on July 26 but the date has now been changed because it also happens to be Kargil Victory Day and the government has no intention of sending any message to the neighbourhood.

This is a nonsense reason if true(and i think it is).

Will we stop flying our Su-30s on July 26 since it might send wrong signals since it happens to be Vijay Diwas? :-?


I really wonder, what's the purpose of that report and the point of not launching on July 26 but on some other date?

Now is the ATV already wet and swimming with the fish?

Psy-ops can be done in many ways and who'd want to give all the guys sitting at the bottom of the Bay of Bengal outside Vijag for snooping purposes advanced notice?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shankar » 08 Jul 2009 16:59

Wont it be better if we go for tu 160 rather than tu22? Tu 22 is very old and i am not sure if it can actually carry out task effectively.


sure it is Tu 160 is much much better but the Russians have a very limited number of them and not likely to spare -compared to this they have a large inventory of Tu 22 which can be upgraded .mkised and transferred to india on
'lease" for 15 years .

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shankar » 08 Jul 2009 17:01

Now is the ATV already wet and swimming with the fish?

think and guess you are right -ATV must have finished some trial stage before government announced its "launch" . That is why no reporter is allowed and date keep shifting . 15th august but sound like a better date for more reasons than one -ATV is our message to not just pakistan but the world at large

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nrshah » 08 Jul 2009 17:05

We can purchase new Tu 160. I hope russian wont mind it.

half a dozen of blackjack along with similar no of backfires will become formidable force to match in sub continent.

This will become important if tom we want to demolish all nuclear installation and warehead of TSP in a single strike. I dont think without them it will be possible.

-Nitin

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 08 Jul 2009 17:21

Shankar wrote:
Wont it be better if we go for tu 160 rather than tu22? Tu 22 is very old and i am not sure if it can actually carry out task effectively.


sure it is Tu 160 is much much better but the Russians have a very limited number of them and not likely to spare -compared to this they have a large inventory of Tu 22 which can be upgraded .mkised and transferred to india on
'lease" for 15 years .

Tu-160 is not maritime strike bomber, Tu-22m3 is for that role however it is not worth acquiring such an aircraft for single purpose. It has high maintenance cost cause of the millions you have spend filling it with gasoline each year. You are better off acquiring more Mig-29 or even purchase couple Su-30s to provide that role. It was also offered to China.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 08 Jul 2009 17:55

The Backfire,"backfired" during the Georgian crisis,when one was shot down,revealing the aircraft's vulnerability.Russia have several squadrons of the aircraft available if anyone is interested,but the cost of upgrading these aircraft to make them contemporary is probably what has detrred the IN from acquiring any.There may be a Blackjack lust from the IAF though if part of our deterrent is intended to be parked with the IAF.Quite correctly,the direction one can see is to put as much of it underwater with the ATV first series of SSGN/SSBNs,the most survivable option.

How long the new Rambili base will take to begin operations and base our nuclear subs is a big Q.It is supposedly to be operational by 2011.Ideally,we should have two facilities,one on each seaboard,at Karwar and Rambili (Vizag).Basing all our SSBNs at one base wouldn't be wise at all.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Jul 2009 18:18

I recall Ru had to negotiate for years to get some of the tu160 stuck in the ukraine when the ussr split. in total I think they only have <15 and each is considered a strategic asset suitable for launching very long range nuclear ALCMs onlee.

its not on the table at all.

instead we must nurse our hatred and use low cunning to get what we
need done. a bomber conversion of a EMB jet dropping say 4 nirbhay ALCM
out of the bomb bay would do nicely - a reasonably fast (800kmph, extra fuel tanks to boost combat radius to 2000km, good engines and avionics and no issues with exotic parts).

http://www.embraercommercialjets.com.br ... mb_195.asp

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 08 Jul 2009 18:28

@ Phillip..


Rambilli Sub base is a high level strategically important base.there are many wonders being constructed underneath it.
U might know how important it is ,such that the security is beefed up to an extreme extent that no human other than the people involved in it were allowed to just have a quick glimpse on the base.
Humble request to BRF mods is to take out Rambilli discussion out of the equation here.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 08 Jul 2009 18:33

the best option would be to use maritime optimised land based sukhois, some 20-30 odd samples for both the IN and eventually to replace no 6 squadron jags would be pretty decent.

a squadron based in that permanent aircraft carrier called A&N would give some people a severe indigestion ! :twisted:


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