Indian Naval Discussion

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vina
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vina » 15 Jul 2009 22:23

the waist section being used for recovery, there is no way to put a ski jump on those cats unless you ask pilots who miss to ski jump again on the fly


I think you possibly will see ski jumps with EM cats in their USMC assault carriers and arrestor wires put. That way , you could possibly get rid of the F35B and just have the A and B versions. Capability increases, one model less,longer production run, more profit, lower cost .. etc. etc . Brits could adopt that too , along with the rest of Naval Sea Harrier users.

A carrier to have a full capability should be able to sustain air ops for 24 hrs in different sectors in different missions at the same time. Wondering whether a compliment of 20 multi-role a/c could do that. During the AG negotiations..a section of IN officers were not so happy with AG capabilites as it gives only marginal increase(in capability) in consideration with previous a/c carriers that India operated. And that weighs ~ 40k


Frankly, the AG sucks. Remember, it was a cruiser primarily ,with some "hybrid" VTOL/ Helicopter carrying capability. The hanger doesnt extend the full length of the ship and is very small. It was never a carrier with a clean sheet design. The Viraat at around 25K ton displacement carries 30 planes. A clean sheet design like the Charles De Gaulle carries 45 aircraft or so , which by any measure is a sizeable foce, with around 30 or so being multi role aircraft and the rest like choppers and AEW aircraft. So really I think 3 40K ton carriers will be fine for India. AG carries 15 to 20 aircraft less than what it ideally should if it were a clean sheet design.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 15 Jul 2009 22:41

Singha wrote:some say onlee a 60000t Kuznetsov/Khawk sized carrier has the internal hanger
space to carry a air wing of sufficient number and diversity to function as a potent offensive air arm of the fleet with no compromises.

anything below that one needs to sacrifice this or that to compensate.
......

methinks that the size of a carrier (over what is required for the 2 sqdn fighters + 10-15 helos threshold) would be determined by the flight deck needed to operate a fixed-wing AEW aircraft and the necessary tonnage due to it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 15 Jul 2009 22:49

^Yep very much feasible specially when UCAVs would be thrown in the mix ; starting from ASW and AEW roles and finally even carrying out tactical or strategic bombing missions . Manned jets will be for air superiority and air defense or even escorts for UCAVs.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Jamal K. Malik » 15 Jul 2009 23:24

Sorry for off topic.
Atleast we can sleep without tension of our seas

Navy fully prepared at all times: Sureesh Mehta

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Baljeet » 15 Jul 2009 23:46

Jamal K. Malik wrote:Sorry for off topic.
Atleast we can sleep without tension of our seas

Navy fully prepared at all times: Sureesh Mehta

AWWW, now isn't that cute coming for Naval Chief. Guess he forgot that worst terrorist attack on Indian Soil came from seas. 8)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 16 Jul 2009 00:18

Baljeet wrote:
SNaik wrote:Sonar MGK-400EM "Irbis" control console. Inside Nerpa (Project 09719).
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... _09719.jpg


WTH, is this inside a submarine or some workshop. If this is inside the submarine, I have my doubts


The pic was made in 2007during installation and setup of systems which was performed by civilians, not Navu personnel.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Jul 2009 00:21

Routine posturing , The chief needs to be seen confident to deal with such attack and sound confident to reassure the nation.

How would the nation and Govt takes if he says well I am just 90 % confident that i can deal with it , for the rest 10 % this is always a chance.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 16 Jul 2009 00:22

snaik, thanks a lot for the tidbits !

austin, it's damned if you do ........... :wink:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Jul 2009 00:25

Nice at least the Nerpa have those 19'' LCD in shock proof casing , hopefully with ICMS. Not too long back in late 90's were videos of improved Akula with all dials and knobs with few CRT type display.

SNaik are you sure the Akula 2 plus or more specifically Nerpa are fitted with MGK-400EM sonar ,aren't these compact low volume sonar that are fitted on Kilo 636 ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 16 Jul 2009 01:23

Austin wrote:Nice at least the Nerpa have those 19'' LCD in shock proof casing , hopefully with ICMS. Not too long back in late 90's were videos of improved Akula with all dials and knobs with few CRT type display.

SNaik are you sure the Akula 2 plus or more specifically Nerpa are fitted with MGK-400EM sonar ,aren't these compact low volume sonar that are fitted on Kilo 636 ?

No, Austin, I'm not dead certain, but the information comes from a guy who is working at Okeanpribor and has been installing the thing on Nerpa.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby krishna_krishna » 16 Jul 2009 01:37

Is there a way we can launch protest against shiv aroor, he is trying to be a moron,He has published the atv's location :
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/ex ... -home.html

Is there a way we can file a complaint and make sure he stays away from pulling such things in the future.I am ready to go all the way without any support

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 16 Jul 2009 01:57

OK. Shiv aroor has taken this from wikimapia / google earth. There is a post there which appeared a few days back pointing the shipbuilding center. The image he has posted is a google earth image, except it is black and white. See for yourselves.

Not only has he posted this on his blog, but also marked this on wikimapia.

But the point is, who do we want to hide this from? The pakis, chinese or the khans? They all know much more than the average BRFite about the SBC or the ATV.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby krishna_krishna » 16 Jul 2009 02:11

The question is not whether they know much or not.I do not know because only them and our intelligence services can guess the extent of knowledge possessed by them.But should such a open crying and noises to the world what we are doing and where are we doing.We even showed door to an admiral on just because he reffered to atv( there would have been a reason why he was shown door),And by the same comment lets put the copy on every defence magazine in india showing people a tour of the complex and publishing stamps.Anyone who has been around there knows what kind of security we have.Just another death knell on the forces from insider.Really i pitty those who work day and night to keep us secure and give us the power we need.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby KrishG » 16 Jul 2009 02:50

krishna_krishna wrote:The question is not whether they know much or not.I do not know because only them and our intelligence services can guess the extent of knowledge possessed by them.But should such a open crying and noises to the world what we are doing and where are we doing.We even showed door to an admiral on just because he reffered to atv( there would have been a reason why he was shown door),And by the same comment lets put the copy on every defence magazine in india showing people a tour of the complex and publishing stamps.Anyone who has been around there knows what kind of security we have.Just another death knell on the forces from insider.Really i pitty those who work day and night to keep us secure and give us the power we need.


Don't worry! Almost all of us know the place and have already snooped around multiple times on Google Maps and Bing Maps. In the Bing Maps you can the refurbishment going on, on a Foxtrat-class and a Kilo class sub just beside the ATV dock. It's like a open secret! DRDO already knows about these things, that's why the have got a roof built for the ATV dockyard.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Samay » 16 Jul 2009 03:06

Jamal K. Malik wrote:Sorry for off topic.
Atleast we can sleep without tension of our seas

Navy fully prepared at all times: Sureesh Mehta

that is an official line that always comes out first followed by....
"but we need more AIP subs,as older ones are useless"
"will get gorky soon,matters will be russolved "
"we are latest getting p8i to safeguard cities, lacking which terror acts happen"
"will work on close coordination with CG,and others"..... :|

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby p_saggu » 16 Jul 2009 03:55

Hey there are only two places in India where you can repair or build submarines. Mazgaon docks and Vizag.

Now with this info, how difficult is it for someone to locate these two with google earth? I can tell you personally, that I have located so many things by just locating local place names which inadvertantly appear with newspaper reports, then doing a google and a google earth search.

Defence secrets are not where a factory is. A secret is what frequency a radar works on. What frequency of sound does a submarine's propeller generate, what is the range of its torpedos or missiles. How accurate are they. or the sub's location when it is deployed in the middle of the ocean or its mission.

A factory's location hardly constitutes a secret (Except say a secret factory under a mountain or the weapon designing lab in BARC - but even here we all KNOW what goes on inside the BARC complex as a whole)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby andy B » 16 Jul 2009 04:43

SNaik wrote:Sonar MGK-400EM "Irbis" control console. Inside Nerpa (Project 09719).
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... _09719.jpg


A hearty dhanyavad SNaik ji, the emergence of COTS has completely revolutionalised the Russian manufacturers from ships to planes....now only if you could get some more pics, some more info.... :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Willy » 16 Jul 2009 12:11

There was a report a few days back saying that the 12 K-15 (3x4) will be eventually by 4 Agni3-SL(1x4). Now even if they are MIRV that wont be much for a boomer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jamal K. Malik wrote:
Sorry for off topic.
Atleast we can sleep without tension of our seas

Navy fully prepared at all times: Sureesh Mehta
----------------------------

AWWW, now isn't that cute coming for Naval Chief. Guess he forgot that worst terrorist attack on Indian Soil came from seas.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dude it was not the navy's job for costal policing. The navy cant stop every ship and boat and check it nor does it have the intelligence network to detect terrorist type activities. Its getting the armed forces into internal policing thats sapping their capabilites and moral.
Last edited by Willy on 16 Jul 2009 12:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby putnanja » 20 Jul 2009 01:54

Final price tag of Gorshkov to be close to $.2.9 billion - K.V. Prasad

NEW DELHI: India is all set to finalise the price tag of aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov), which would be closer to the revised demand made by Russia at $2.9 billion.

Authoritative sources in the Ministry of Defence say the figure is likely to be finalised next week when negotiators end discussions.

...
The team has conveyed that the cost had been calculated as per the standards specified by its government and there was little room to de-escalate the cost, revised from its original price of $1.5 billion. This figure too had been later changed to $2.2 billion.

After the recent visit of Defence Secretary Vijay Singh, New Delhi was hopeful that the price would be closer to $2.2 billion; however, over the past one week, negotiations had moved in a direction that showed it would be closer to the re-revised demand, the sources said.

...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby yossarian » 20 Jul 2009 22:26

The final price does not include the 16 MiG29 K deck-jets that India plans to buy for the carrier


:?:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 20 Jul 2009 22:29

Hoping and praying that a second Akula has snuck under this inflated price tag..

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Jul 2009 23:04

gee, the brand new Cavour came in at $2b iirc, a ship that will last 50 years for sure, with a dedicated carrier layout internally (big hangers).

and with a ski jump it could presumably operate the Mig29K.

they did a good one-two tag team on this one - floored us with a 100% price escalation.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby RamaY » 20 Jul 2009 23:18

Singha wrote:gee, the brand new Cavour came in at $2b iirc, a ship that will last 50 years for sure, with a dedicated carrier layout internally (big hangers).

and with a ski jump it could presumably operate the Mig29K.

they did a good one-two tag team on this one - floored us with a 100% price escalation.


Can a AC cost less than $2-3B? I was reading a Telugu news paper the other day and they put the cost of INS Arihant at Rs 30,000 crore = $7B.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 21 Jul 2009 00:20

RamaY wrote:
Singha wrote:gee, the brand new Cavour came in at $2b iirc, a ship that will last 50 years for sure, with a dedicated carrier layout internally (big hangers).

and with a ski jump it could presumably operate the Mig29K.

they did a good one-two tag team on this one - floored us with a 100% price escalation.


Can a AC cost less than $2-3B? I was reading a Telugu news paper the other day and they put the cost of INS Arihant at Rs 30,000 crore = $7B.


In India they lump all costs on to a single item to show its too much. That includes the new toilets for the shipyard workers. The reason is they would not have built them if it wernt for the sub!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 21 Jul 2009 01:52

RamaY wrote:
Singha wrote:gee, the brand new Cavour came in at $2b iirc, a ship that will last 50 years for sure, with a dedicated carrier layout internally (big hangers).

and with a ski jump it could presumably operate the Mig29K.

they did a good one-two tag team on this one - floored us with a 100% price escalation.


Can a AC cost less than $2-3B? I was reading a Telugu news paper the other day and they put the cost of INS Arihant at Rs 30,000 crore = $7B.


that is likely the entire estimated sum spent on the development of the nuclear submarine..much of it would've been spent on R&D and on establishing the required infrastructure to build more Arihant class nuclear submarines..its not just the cost of 1 INS Arihant.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sandipan » 21 Jul 2009 03:07

Any idea on when the second one going to be launched i.e. Arihant -2

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gerard » 21 Jul 2009 04:14


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 21 Jul 2009 04:55

Why would Indian navy launch the second one publicly... The first one shows that we have capability, what will showing the second one add ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kailash » 21 Jul 2009 16:39

Last edited by Gerard on 21 Jul 2009 18:18, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: proper link formatting

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nrshah » 22 Jul 2009 18:58

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SRR/2006/02/56.html

Does any one have a complete report on the above link.I tried but did not succeed.

If yes, please mail me at reach2indian@gmail.com

Thanks

-Nitin

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 22 Jul 2009 19:55

ramana wrote:
RamaY wrote: the brand new Cavour came in at $2b iirc, a ship that will last 50 years for sure, with a dedicated carrier layout internally (big hangers).

and with a ski jump it could presumably operate the Mig29K.

they did a good one-two tag team on this one - floored us with a 100% price escalation.

Can a AC cost less than $2-3B? I was reading a Telugu news paper the other day and they put the cost of INS Arihant at Rs 30,000 crore = $7B.


In India they lump all costs on to a single item to show its too much. That includes the new toilets for the shipyard workers. The reason is they would not have built them if it wernt for the sub!

as if there is only one project going in sevmesh shipyard which is gorshkov and they have nothing except to refurbish except gorshkov and we better think of making new toilets in india.

our govt could also buy a new ship in 1995 or 2000 or in 2004 then why our govt lingered around this ship.

those who say that russians should adhere to price in the contract signed then why there is cost increase in every project in india and those who say that india could buy a new carrier in the contract value from UK,france then why UK's new carrier cost is escalating to 5 billion pounds and this will be the fate of our ADS with estimate of initial price 4 billion and by the time ADS is commissioned it will cost 6-7 billion

and a 5000 ton shivalik class frigate cost 650 million

even if one considers work done on gorshkov is equivalent to the work which is needed to build a shivalik frigate or work needed to build two destroyers till today which definitely cost more than 705 million india paid

and in the end of 2007 our navy chief loosing his temper was claiming that russians used initial amount of money which was 600 million to upgrade sevmesh rather than spending on ship's refurbishment but its worth to think how much of that initial 600 million was spent on refurbishment and how much was spent on sevmesh upgrading if work done on gorshkov is equivalent to work needed to build a shivalik class frigate or work needed to build two destroyers back in the end of 2007 which definitely cost more than the 600 million but govt released 105 million extra only by april of this year totalling 705 million as of now

also how much of 9 billion to build 7 p17a will be used on upgrading shipyards and how much will be spent on building frigates, i was thinking our admiral will come shouting over this hefty price but it seems that he has successful in controlling his temper since 2007

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 23 Jul 2009 17:14

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogI ... 7373923162

Broadsword Comment

Broadsword said...

P28 report coming up.

P-17A report coming up... who's given you these figures, for God's sake? The correct figure is Rs 2600 crores per frigate, which amounts to about $550 million per piece.

Anonymous 14:20, where have you been living? Project 15 was delivered and completed some seven years ago. We are now in Project 15A, with Project 15B due to start next year.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 23 Jul 2009 18:18

Sadly,the Cavour cannot operate the MIG-29Ks,only VSTOL aircraft like the Harriers and future JSFs,which seem to be the preferred aircraft for the Italians and Spanish.The RN will also use the STOVL version for their large carriers,if they survive the internal war going on in the British MOD and the services,where the "dogs of war" are fighting each other for the budget bone.

When the Gorshkov deal was signed,there was no other alternative on the horizon,to acquire a carrier to replace the Vikrant,with the Viraat never expected to soldier on for another decade too,as it is going to do.The carrier is arriving about 4 years late thanks to the well known issues.Since we had so many years to look at it and the Varyag too (now with China being resurrected as a training carrier,rejected by the IN at that time because of the poor hull condition),we should've realised that the work would be far greater than anticipated and the cost would be much more than that estimated.It was an unrealistic deal in retrospect.I don't know how the carrier was acquired without the drawings being available!
Russia has admitted its negligence (the shipyard boss fired too,like the chief missile designer of the Bulava missile,who has just resigned) and though we have not admitted our shortsightedness,are acknowledging it by paying the extra price being negotiated.What the IN really needs for the future is a far larger carrier than either the Gorshkov or the IAC,with a far larger flight deck,that can handle SU-30MKI class aircraft,which will have the range and endurance to meet the IN's future challenges in the IOR and beyond.It will also be able to carry more aircraft and helos for AEW and ASW roles,ideally nuclear powereed.
A naval version of the 5th-gen fighter should also be seriously given thought too,because this twin-engined aircraft is reportedly going to be smaller than the current Flanker and therefore should be able to operate from both the Gorshkov and the IACs being built.With the enhanced stealth features and other goodies,it will enable the Gorshkov and the "Cochin" carrier to cruise in the coming decades with the very latest aircraft aboard.I would suggest that the IN builds the second carrier to larger size and consider nuclear propulsion for it with the experience gained form the ATV programme.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 23 Jul 2009 20:58

Philip wrote:Sadly,the Cavour cannot operate the MIG-29Ks,only VSTOL aircraft like the Harriers and future JSFs,which seem to be the preferred aircraft for the Italians and Spanish.The RN will also use the STOVL version for their large carriers,if they survive the internal war going on in the British MOD and the services,where the "dogs of war" are fighting each other for the budget bone.

When the Gorshkov deal was signed,there was no other alternative on the horizon,to acquire a carrier to replace the Vikrant,with the Viraat never expected to soldier on for another decade too,as it is going to do.The carrier is arriving about 4 years late thanks to the well known issues

why there was no other option except for gorshkov. when our govt could drag the negotiations from 96 to 04 during these 8 years our govt could also think of buying a new aircraft carrier then why did they stick to this ship for 8 years.

even HMS invinsible available today and can work for next 25 years.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 23 Jul 2009 23:03

Inside Talwar: where do you store liquids onboard :)
Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby p_saggu » 24 Jul 2009 01:06

Didn't know where to post this, what is this at cochin shipyards site?

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vina » 24 Jul 2009 13:27

There was no other carrier available,barring the French Clemenceau,riddled with asbestos,etc

There is the big enchilada available (always was),called Kitty Hawk. Unkil will be more than happy to sell it along with two squadrons of F18s, the entire Hakweye 2000, helis and other doo-dads, with the sensitive equipment either "downgraded" or ripped out of course. :mrgreen: . And yeah. You could have got the kitty at the same price you are getting the Gorshkov, only that , the Kitty was actually a carrier that served and a real McCoy, rather than the burnt out rusting hulk that the IN suckers fell for.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vavinash » 24 Jul 2009 14:51

Kitty would have been a true white elephant in the hands of IN. IN has never operated a ship as big as her and the cost of doing a SLEP would have been enormous (much more than gorky's cost). IN needs to learn to walk before it can run.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby rakall » 24 Jul 2009 15:20

vavinash wrote:Kitty would have been a true white elephant in the hands of IN. IN has never operated a ship as big as her and the cost of doing a SLEP would have been enormous (much more than gorky's cost). IN needs to learn to walk before it can run.



And, ofcourse, considering the time when the Gorshky deal was mooted, negotiated and signed -- and relations between US & India at that time... US wouldn' thave offered us a nail at that time..

Plus - as various whispers suggest that Akula was negotiated as part/sweetener of the deal...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 24 Jul 2009 19:27

bunch of OT posts moved to international naval thread, including one "USN CBG so pwns anything in da wrld, maan !" (duh !) :roll:
guess some people are so fanboyish they can't even read the thread title !


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