Indian Missile Technology Discussion

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 26 Sep 2008 04:08

sam_kamath wrote:
sunilUpa wrote:^^^Are you refering to Thixotropic gelled fuels?
yes .. the buffer polymers though is where the magic lies... loads of parameters to take care of not to mention near smokeless burns..

In that case, napalm is not really a good example, for AFAIK napalm is not shear thinning. In any case Thixotropic fuels are nothing new..late 60s or 70s technology.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Sep 2008 04:12

Mr. Kamath can you be a little bit more polite in your responses? People here are long timers and its not often that we get abrasive responses like the one you gave. Thanks, ramana

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 26 Sep 2008 07:17

vivek_ahuja wrote:I know that's something the Russians looked at, but going back and looking at the image you posted, and some terminal scenes of the missile just before impact it would seem that the Brahmos jettisons off the latter section somewhere along the way. So you could be right: the solid fuel sits in the jettison-able canister at the end.

The video of Brahmos on youtube explains clearly how it works. The booster is a normal cylindrical solid rocket motor that is inserted/embedded inside the combustion chamber of the ramjet. At the time of launch, the inlet is covered by gas thrusters for orientation. After that the thrusters are jettisoned. The booster goes on for some more time then the inlet cover is jettisioned too. The air pressure from the inlet then ejects the booster out of the chamber and ram jets kicks in.

Cheers....

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 27 Sep 2008 08:46

Indian ABM Interceptor
IANS cited a senior Indian defense official announcing that the next test is scheduled on November 6 at the Chandipur on sea, interim test range in coastal Orissa. "Preparations are on to conduct the interceptor missile test for building an indigenous defense shield in early November. It is aimed at intercepting and destroying ballistic missiles from a long range”, Indian defense scientist, VK Saraswat stated to the news agency. “The new test will seek to prove the 23-foot-long interceptor’s capabilities at a higher altitude than the test conducted last December”, Saraswat added.
"We have already conducted a test in endo-atmosphere at a distance of 48 kilometers. We are aiming at much higher altitude in exo-atmosphere, which is 50 kilometers to 75 kilometers (30 miles to 45 miles) above the earth”, told Saraswat.
IANS stated that the new interceptor would carry ’inertial navigation system and electro-mechanical actuators’ to enable it to perform critical functions required to engage the incoming missile during the latter’s terminal phase. "With the third test, we will have the entire BMD capability to detect, intercept and destroy intermediate-range and intercontinental ballistic missiles, coming from any country", Saraswat added

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Sep 2008 17:56

Russia, India to develop new BrahMos cruise missile

NEW DELHI, September 29 (RIA Novosti) - Russia and India will jointly develop a new BrahMos-2 hypersonic cruise missile, the head of the BrahMos company said on Monday.

"Today, at a meeting of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military-technical cooperation, we decided to set up a working group on the development of the BrahMos-2 missile," the company's CEO, Sivathanu Pillai said.

"The new hypersonic missile will have a top speed of over Mach 5, which would make it impossible to intercept," he added.

Established in 1998, BrahMos Aerospace, a joint Indian-Russian venture, produces and markets BrahMos supersonic missiles, whose sea-based and land-based versions have been successfully tested and put into service with the Indian army and navy.

Pillai said that the company had finished the development of the airborne version of the BrahMos missile and the Indian air force had chosen the SU-30 MKI Flanker-H multirole fighter as a trial platform for the missile.

The BrahMos missile has a range of 290 km (180 miles) and can carry a conventional warhead of up to 300 kg (660 pounds). It can hit ground targets flying at an altitude as low as 10 meters (30 feet) and has a top speed of Mach 2.8, which is about three times faster than the U.S.-made subsonic Tomahawk cruise missile.

The head of BrahMos Aerospace earlier said that the recent acquisition of an assembly plant in the state of Kerala from Kerala Hightech Industries Ltd, in addition to the main plant in Hyderabad, would allow the company to increase production to 50 BrahMos missiles a year and fulfill orders from the army on schedule.

Analysts estimate that India could purchase up to 1,000 BrahMos missiles for its armed forces in the next decade, and export 2,000 to other countries during the same period.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 29 Sep 2008 18:00

^^^

So India will have 3 hypersonic programmes? 1-DRDO, 2-ISRO and 3rd- Brahmos.

What is the strategy behind developing a hyersonic missile within MTCR guidelines?

K_Reddy · Post by **K_Reddy** » 29 Sep 2008 18:46

I have heard time and again that the real range of the Brahmos missile is well over the MTCR limit of 300 Km, even an article in Jane's a few years back said so. Can anyone estimate the real range of the missile given it's perimeters/dimensions?

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 29 Sep 2008 21:41

Completely different applications.
Brahmos-2 : Deadlier Anti-Ship missile
DRDO: Reusable long range LACM
ISRO: RLV for sats.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 29 Sep 2008 21:58

I just wanted to ask the Gurus a question. Is it possible to replace the Prithvi missiles with Agni-I AT. We can sell the Prithvi missiles which has range less than 300 km to friendly countries.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 29 Sep 2008 22:05

vavinash wrote:Completely different applications.
Brahmos-2 : Deadlier Anti-Ship missile
DRDO: Reusable long range LACM
ISRO: RLV for sats.

No where it is mentioned that Brahmos 2 is restricted to anti-ship role, same applies to DRDO version, that it is only meant for LACM role. In any case the basic technology will remain same for all three.

ISRO / DRDO bifurcation is understandable (though I don't think it is a sound decision). But DRDO/DRDO bifurcation is

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 30 Sep 2008 01:38

Mach 5

They should make a Air Launch version with a big seeker on it, would make a nice AWAC killer

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 30 Sep 2008 02:02

Too heavy for AAW role. This is where KS-172 with speed > mach 4 comes in handy.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 30 Sep 2008 05:07

uddu wrote:I just wanted to ask the Gurus a question. Is it possible to replace the Prithvi missiles with Agni-I AT. We can sell the Prithvi missiles which has range less than 300 km to friendly countries.

They should start selling the Prithvis to Vietnam and other Panda haters....that'll give the chicoms a nice nasty surprise...

Daedalus · Post by **Daedalus** » 30 Sep 2008 05:50

Anand Barve wrote:They should start selling the Prithvis to Vietnam and other Panda haters....that'll give the chicoms a nice nasty surprise...

That's a really good thought. I agree, revenue + scared chinkis

. But I am sure there will be international rules against that.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 30 Sep 2008 05:53

When we can sell brahmos, why not prithvi

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Sep 2008 05:55

no rules against exporting 150km range BMs to vietnam. but prithvi is very accurate and its guidance system is not exactly run of the mill. china won't be happy.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 30 Sep 2008 05:58

Daedalus wrote:
Anand Barve wrote:They should start selling the Prithvis to Vietnam and other Panda haters....that'll give the chicoms a nice nasty surprise...
That's a really good thought. I agree, revenue + scared chinkis . But I am sure there will be international rules against that.

On paper sell em the 250 km ones...that way you avoid breaching the MTCR.
However from what little I have seen the PII and PII look pretty much the same so if they in reality are the 350 Km ones...there would be now way for chicoms to find out to be sure.

Dumb the guidance down...if need be...use the hammer to drop a fly approach...if a 1 ton warhead is detonating in a cep of 300m instead of 30m it will still cause enough damage...or dumb down the guidance but give em more lethal warheads....

These mijjiles then will definately threaten the various listening posts and bases that the chicoms have established in the south china sea....

Will we ever get to that stage I very regrettably dont think so...why bcoz our babbus cant get their thumbs outta their a$$es...SDREs we are like this only.

P.S. Rahul tu kabhi sota hein kya yaar????

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 30 Sep 2008 06:01

Rahul M wrote:no rules against exporting 150km range BMs to vietnam. but prithvi is very accurate and its guidance system is not exactly run of the mill. china won't be happy.

China wont be happy....great Rahul last thing I expected from you sorry.

What about aew/fighters supplied to porkis...???
What about Myanmar????
What about Nepal???
What about Tibet???

The list goes on....India was never happy....did the F%$#ng Chicoms care???

I am sorry....but I am sick of listening China wont be happy....

Yes we need them for bilateral trade and all the other crap...but what good is it if we end up suffering....to their hands all the time????

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Sep 2008 06:15

sorry, you don't understand. I was not talking from our POV but vietnams'.

china is the big bully in that part of the world. w/o the assurance of full backing from a strong power they won't be so eager to antagonize the new china. this is not the PRC of the 60's, nor are we the USSR which could back the vietnamese with a full range of weapons and direct support thru' the base at cam ranh.

both our power and our commitment to use it remains suspect, especially the later.
unless we demonstrate to the world that we have both the means and the will to back a friendly nation to the hilt, irrespective of the opposition, no country will trust us enough to buy weapons to pin prick the neighbourhood bully.

hope I have clarified my stand.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 30 Sep 2008 06:27

Yes I do Rahul, I appologise for being too aggro...I let my undying luv for PRC take control...

Ok I agree that supplying major items like BMs would cause a storm.
But this is one of the few opps that we do get to start a "Khujli" trend.
Small arms, AAA, AA, etc and progressively build em up. As we build up the supply so too yindia will get stronger in time financially and millitarily.

Also yes Vietnam is worried about upsetting PRC...but on the other hand they also dont want to get completely sidelined and puppeted by them...

Chicom basta$%s are encircling us on land and in the oceans....

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 30 Sep 2008 15:27

New Delhi, Sept 29 (PTI) India and Russia today decided to work together on development of hypersonic version of BrahMos missile and have set up a working group in this regard.
The decision in this regard was taken at the 8th inter-governmental commission (IGC) for military and technology cooperation meeting here in Delhi.

The new version would be an improvement on the already-developed BrahMos supersonic cruise missile.

"India and Russia have today agreed to set up a joint working group (JWG) for the development of a hypersonic version of the Brahmos missile," BrahMos Aerospace Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director A Sivathanu Pillai said at a function to mark the Russian Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov's official visit to BrahMos Complex this afternoon.

The first meeting of the Indo-Russian JWG on the hypersonic version of BrahMos missile would be held in November this year.

"Our first meeting would be held in Moscow and after that work on the new version of BrahMos will start," Pillai said.

Talking about the integration of the supersonic missile on the Russian Su-30 aircraft, Pillai said the work in this regard was in progress in both India and Russia.

Deputy Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal N A K Browne, who was present on the occasion, said the missile would be integrated with the latest version of Su-30s.

"The missile would be fitted on Su-30 MKI Block III, which are being inducted in the IAF since last year. The induction of these aircraft would be completed by 2010," Browne said. PTI

http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.ns ... enDocument

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 01 Oct 2008 11:48

did we sign any agreement on joint development of SAM with France,in PM's French visit,i heard it in a Tv news channel,that there was a agreement in principle for joint development of such,i dont remember the channel name

skher · Post by **skher** » 01 Oct 2008 12:22

did we sign any agreement on joint development of SAM with France

Yes,the maitri LLQRM Surface To Air Missile.

But,iirc PM's visit had nothing to do with it....this agreement was signed quite sometime back.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 01 Oct 2008 12:36

here you go N^3
x-posting from Indian Military aviation thread.
India, France agree to bolster defence cooperation

Paris, September 30: India and France on Tuesday agreed to bolster bilateral defence ties by working on joint development of quick reaction short range surface-to-air missiles (SRSAM) and concluding a crucial deal on upgradation of IAF’s frontline Mirage 2000 fighters.

Transformation of defence ties from a buyer-seller relationship to joint production and transfer of technology for making hi-tech weapon systems and platforms was highlighted in a joint statement issued after summit talks between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and French President Nicolas Sarkozy in Paris.

Negotiations on upgradation of IAF’s fleet of 52 Mirages 2000 fighters, which will enhance their life for another 25 years, are almost in final stages.

This was reflected in comments made by Sarkozy after the summit meeting where he said “discussions on the upgradation are well underway and expected to be finalised by next year”.

In the proposed deal worth over 1 million euros, the French aviation major Dassult has offered to upgrade the IAF Mirages to the level of French Air Forces Mirage 2000-9.

Another major French-led European company EADS has offered an agreement to jointly produce 1,000 SRSAM for the Indian Army in collaboration with DRDO and state-owned Bharat Dynamics.

Dassult is also one of the leading contenders for the IAF’s biggest ever military contract worth USD 10 billion for acquisition of 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 01 Oct 2008 12:42

Thanks Mehta Saab,

In the proposed deal worth over 1 million euros, the French aviation major Dassult has offered to upgrade the IAF Mirages to the level of French Air Forces Mirage 2000-9

i think the "1 million euors" is a typo,typical DDM

it should be 1 Billion.

Thanks

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 02 Oct 2008 23:40

repackaged news:
Russia, India To Develop New BrahMos Cruise Missile

by Staff Writers
New Delhi, India (RIA Novosti) Oct 02, 2008
Russia and India will jointly develop a new BrahMos-2 hypersonic cruise missile, the head of the BrahMos company said on Monday. "At a meeting of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military-technical cooperation, we decided to set up a working group on the development of the BrahMos-2 missile," the company's CEO, Sivathanu Pillai said.

"The new hypersonic missile will have a top speed of over Mach 5, which would make it impossible to intercept," he added.

Established in 1998, BrahMos Aerospace, a joint Indian-Russian venture, produces and markets BrahMos supersonic missiles, whose sea-based and land-based versions have been successfully tested and put into service with the Indian army and navy.

Pillai said that the company had finished the development of the airborne version of the BrahMos missile and the Indian air force had chosen the SU-30 MKI Flanker-H multirole fighter as a trial platform for the missile.

The BrahMos missile has a range of 290 km (180 miles) and can carry a conventional warhead of up to 300 kg (660 pounds). It can hit ground targets flying at an altitude as low as 10 meters (30 feet) and has a top speed of Mach 2.8, which is about three times faster than the U.S.-made subsonic Tomahawk cruise missile.

The head of BrahMos Aerospace earlier said that the recent acquisition of an assembly plant in the state of Kerala from Kerala Hightech Industries Ltd, in addition to the main plant in Hyderabad, would allow the company to increase production to 50 BrahMos missiles a year and fulfill orders from the army on schedule.

Analysts estimate that India could purchase up to 1,000 BrahMos missiles for its armed forces in the next decade, and export 2,000 to other countries during the same period.

Source: RIA Novosti

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 03 Oct 2008 10:05

"The new hypersonic missile will have a top speed of over Mach 5, which would make it impossible to intercept," he added.

Why nobody mentions nor any reporters ask for range of Brahmos-2?,i dont hear any speculation either.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Oct 2008 18:00

the n number of posts on people with n number of n's in their names have gone to the trash can thread for RnR.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 03 Oct 2008 18:24

Russia's UAC may join India in development of BrahMos-2 missile

03/ 10/ 2008

MOSCOW, October 3 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) will participate in the joint development of a new cruise missile with India only if a decision is made to adopt it for service with the Russian Air Force, the company said on Friday.

UAC was formed last year from leading domestic plane producers to streamline the country's aircraft-building industry, and includes Ilyushin, Tupolev, Sukhoi, Antonov and Mikoyan, as well as companies involved in distribution.

"Our participation will be certain only if we receive an official request to equip Russian fighters, the Su-MKI in particular, with these missiles. So far we have not received such a request," said UAC president Alexey Fyodorov.

Russia and India announced in September plans to jointly develop a new BrahMos-2 hypersonic cruise missile.

The new missile will have a top speed of over Mach 5, which would make it virtually impossible to intercept.

At present, BrahMos Aerospace, a joint Indian-Russian venture, produces and markets BrahMos supersonic missiles, whose sea-based and land-based versions have been successfully tested and put into service with the Indian army and navy.

The head of BrahMos Aerospace, Sivathanu Pillai, earlier said that the company had finished the development of the airborne version of the BrahMos missile and the Indian air force had chosen the SU-30 MKI Flanker-H multirole fighter as a trial platform for the missile.

The BrahMos missile has a range of 290 km (180 miles) and can carry a conventional warhead of up to 300 kg (660 pounds). It can hit ground targets flying at an altitude as low as 10 meters (30 feet) and has a top speed of Mach 2.8, which is about three times faster than the U.S.-made subsonic Tomahawk cruise missile.

Analysts estimate that India could purchase up to 1,000 BrahMos missiles for its armed forces in the next decade, and export 2,000 to other countries during the same period.

http://www.en.rian.ru/russia/20081003/117416607.html

So there is no request made for integration?

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 03 Oct 2008 19:07

narayana wrote:
"The new hypersonic missile will have a top speed of over Mach 5, which would make it impossible to intercept," he added.
Why nobody mentions nor any reporters ask for range of Brahmos-2?,i dont hear any speculation either.

I think I have read about Brahmos-ii being about 1000km on a post on BR earlier.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 03 Oct 2008 20:17

Range can't be more than 300KM

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 03 Oct 2008 20:19

Katare wrote:Range can't be more than 300KM

Reason? MTCR ?

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 03 Oct 2008 20:42

Katare wrote:Range can't be more than 300KM

Thats is not correct. You cannot sell a system like missile/uav which is having range moer than 300 Km but you can co-develop them. Since India would be developing the engine too, in this case co-development is possible.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Oct 2008 21:48

K Mehta wrote:
Katare wrote:Range can't be more than 300KM
Thats is not correct. You cannot sell a system like missile/uav which is having range moer than 300 Km but you can co-develop them. Since India would be developing the engine too, in this case co-development is possible.

I dont think that is a work around to MTCR , there is no evidence so far to suggest that India is developing the engine

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Oct 2008 13:20

The NIExpress has this report that finally Russia is to induct the Brahmos missile into its naval forces! This is great news as well as earlier reports of the hypersonic Brahmos being co-developed by both Russia and Indai.It puts to rest the asinine talk of Russia not cooperating with us and such projects are one-way trafffic.

http://epaper.newindpress.com/NE/NE/200 ... ndex.shtml

PUTTING an end to the prevailing uncertainty, Russia has decided to induct the BrahMos cruise missiles in its future navy and army systems.
The Russian Defence Ministry has managed a special waiver for the BrahMos, an Indo-Russian joint venture, to facilitate its induction. According to Russian law, that country is legally bound to induct only those weapon systems that have been indigenously developed.

Top sources in the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) told Express that this technical objection had now been waived vis-a-vis BrahMos. The move gives a huge boost to the export potential of the missile as prospective buyers who raised the ‘why-not-in-Russia?’ doubt, may feel more confident about procuring it.

From an Indian point of view, the Russian decision will silence the critics of the BrahMos joint venture who aired the view that the deal gave the Russians more say than India on the export and sale of the missile.

It was also maintained that the Russians had little use of a 290km cruise missile as they were more worried about long-distance strategic concerns.

“The waiver clearly underlines Russian interest in strengthening defence relations with India. All new Russian ships will be armed with the BrahMos,” DRDO sources said.

Russia is also in the process of altering the Gorshkov class frigates to accommodate the BrahMos.

India, meanwhile, is all set to carry out underwater trials of the BrahMos before it is installed on submarines. The delay, sources said, was in getting a submarine on which the launch facility could be integrated. “The design is ready . But we don’t have a subsea platform from which to testfire the missile,” sources said.

The DRDO is now mooting the possibility of firing the BrahMos from a submerged pontoon to evaluate its underwater launch capability. “We only need to carry out two or three firings. The pontoon is being designed and we hope to carry out the testing before the year end,” sources said.

The Indian Navy has not indicated the type of submarines it wants the BrahMos on. The current thinking is to fit it on Scorpene 6 and 7 before the second line submarines join the fleet.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 04 Oct 2008 15:15

Screen grabs showing the Gas generator of the Brahmos from the boss himself. He depicts how the gas generator is ejected out and then the ramjet fuel ignites in the combustion chamber. Note the size esp the length of the gas generator !

The combustion chamber

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 04 Oct 2008 21:46

What the hell do they mean scorpene 6 & 7? I thought only 6 were ordered. Another DDM? Though it would be interesting to see if 8 cell VLS can be added to the scorpene subs with indigenous fuel cell AIP.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 04 Oct 2008 22:59

I know its probably not going to happen, but I hope we develop a 1000km range brahmos variant ourselves...

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 04 Oct 2008 23:04

Unless Nirbhay range increases to 2000 km wouldn't they be overlapping?

H.B.Krishna · Post by **H.B.Krishna** » 05 Oct 2008 00:50

vavinash wrote:Unless Nirbhay range increases to 2000 km wouldn't they be overlapping?

IMHO,
Nirbhay is a subsonic CM while Brahmos 2 is hypersonic
Nirbhay is LACM/ALCM while Brahmos 2 will be ASCM/LACM/ALCM
Nirbhay is turbofan powered while Brahmos 2 is SCRAMJET powered
[Added latter]
Nirbhay will be a nuke capable strategic CM while officially Brahmos will not be.
Ultimately Nirbhay should have its range incremented from 750 KM -> 1500 KM -> 3000 KM at 500 KG payload

BTB No news about Nirbhay these days...Gurus please give us some gyan on the current status of Nirbhay