Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Sep 2008 18:12

Mach 2.2 target is imo desirable. F-15, M2K, Tornado can sprint at such speeds for a while.
Su27 (J11) and Su30 can also manage Mach2+. these may be in clean config but I guess when
running away they might drop everything and just run. even the F-16 can sprint out to Mach1.8
JSF in similar range probably. Eurofighter Mach2+....

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 09 Sep 2008 20:38

Singha wrote:Mach 2.2 target is imo desirable. F-15, M2K, Tornado can sprint at such speeds for a while.
Su27 (J11) and Su30 can also manage Mach2+. these may be in clean config but I guess when
running away they might drop everything and just run. even the F-16 can sprint out to Mach1.8
JSF in similar range probably. Eurofighter Mach2+....

Lets not forget the good ol' fulcrum in that list. SUpposedly does Mach 2.3 clean!

Regards,
CM.

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 09 Sep 2008 23:32

If there are so many aircrafts capable of executing mach 2+ speed, then imho it is a very limited view to keep the missile limited to mach 2+. The target should be to make them capable of mach 3+ given the fact that there are many 5th generation aircrafts in production with God knows how many counter-measures for such missiles. Speed is one area which should hardly become a hindrance to counter such counter-measures

Better future-proof the missile at the time of making it rather than going for upgrades and more R&D at later stage.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Sep 2008 23:45

the current engagement envelope covers 90% of real world situations. there are few planes indeed that can go supersonic with load and if it drops everything and runs, you have achieved your purpose anyway ! frankly, a fighter without its combat load is no military machine.
air combat isn't all about kills.

the upgradation to 2 mach is an added sweetener that can wait. I would guess that it would require a SW upgrade only which they can manage once there is some confidence in the bare bones performance of the seeker.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 10 Sep 2008 00:00

What About contamporary AA missiles of US/Russian airforce? Can they intercept an aircraft manuvering at Mach-2.0?

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 10 Sep 2008 00:04

Katare wrote:What About contamporary AA missiles of US/Russian airforce? Can they intercept an aircraft manuvering at Mach-2.0?

Just a note to everybody looking for mach 2 maneuvers: it doesn't happen.

The aircraft of today dash in or dash out in a straight line when going at these burst speeds. The pilots can either try and use this to escape away if they are at the extreme envelope of the engagement or should they try to maneuver, it will almost always be at subsonic speeds.

-Vivek

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Sep 2008 00:09

vivek am I right in thinking that only the raptor and the EF is designed to be maneuverable at high (not necessarily supersonic) speeds ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Sep 2008 00:52

Katare wrote:What About contamporary AA missiles of US/Russian airforce? Can they intercept an aircraft manuvering at Mach-2.0?

the wiki page, which is otherwise quite detailed is silent on this issue. may be these type of details (max speed of target) are usually not shared widely by the manufacturers.

one interesting tid bit :

Although in this regard the RVV-AE (which is the missiles export name or R-77 the official Russian Air force designation) does have an advantage as it is faster and has a greater range than the AMRAAM. Meaning that the Russian airplane firing it can in fact fire first, although it still needs to lead the missile towards the target as the missiles own radar seeker has a limited range (under 10km, as on AMRAAM).

intended range of astra's seeker is 15 km. IIRC there were some reports that MBDA's seeker (meteor?) would be used.
dimensionwise, astra is smaller than the amraam but heavier, probably due to denser propellant given that it is supposed to have as much range as the D version.
all in all, very ambitious project.

P.S. I just wish we had a project for an electro-optic guided SRAAM. even license production of the python-V will do.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 10 Sep 2008 01:01

Rahul M wrote:vivek am I right in thinking that only the raptor and the EF is designed to be maneuverable at high (not necessarily supersonic) speeds ?

Rahul,

What made you mention Raptor and EF only? Note that the question of maneuverability is a very broad question. It depends on everything from airframe to altitude to what you and I perceive as high speeds to weights etc. But eventually what matters is what the enemy missile is capable of doing...

For example, if the aircraft is initiating a turn in the horizontal plane (no climb or dive), then the two parameters that are important as far as evading the missile is concerned is the radius of turn and rate of turn. Although I am no expert on electronics, but I would think that these are some of the things that matter in evading the missile. But the radius of turn is proportional to the square of the forward velocity and inversely proportional to the bank angle. In other words, higher the velocity, the higher is the turn radius. Go at 500m altitude at mach 0.8 and initiate a 45 degree bank and it can take you up to 6km to change attitude by 90 degrees!!

similarly the rate of turn inversely proportional to the velocity and directly proportional to the bank angle. Higher the velocity, lower the rate of turn. A pull up radius is similarly associated with velocity as turn radius.

The point is that to be able to do high speed maneuvers, the aircraft must be able to sustain high bank angles without falling out of the sky at low altitudes or be at high altitude. But if the aircraft is at high altitude, the high bank angle can be achieved even if the aircraft is dropping out of the sky in a corkscrew fashion. And that means that theoretically most fighters can do this.

That is where the aerodynamics come into the picture. How fast your controls respond to the pilot input is dependent on the aerodynamics of the aircraft at given speeds and it is this that separate aircraft from one another. If a Rafale is chasing a EF, but the EF pilot can initiate a 90 degrees flip in a faster time than that taken by the Rafale pilot, then the EF pilot has an advantage.

Same way, if the aircraft's aerodynamics allow quicker responses to the pilot input than offered by that of the missile, he can evade it. Note that this is different from the input from the guidance system to the elevons on the missile, which will be much faster than the human pilot. The missile traveling at higher velocities than the aircraft requires very quick control inputs to the elevons to ensure quick response, but the elevons take a certain time to respond and so does the total body of the missile.

And unless we replicate these dynamics, there is little in the way of saying which aircraft outperforms another...

JMT and all that.

-Vivek

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Sep 2008 01:22

thanks for the explanation, I get the basic funda of the things.

I mentioned those two a/c as I had followed some discussion elsewhere that claimed likewise.
IIRC, there was also some documentation to back those claims. not being an expert I can't vouch for the accuracy of those claims.

my armchair expertise on this issue :
AFAIK evading AAMs involves either dives to break radar lock (as your scenarios demonstrate) or using the speed of the missile against it. the a/c waits till the missile is close enough and then executes a sudden change in direction/flip to let the missile overshoot. this would work only against the medium/long ranged missiles which can withstand lesser g-forces and are much less maneuverable than WVR missiles.
another way is to present your side aspect to the missile and engage it in an energy wasting turn. useful if the missile is at the extreme end of its envelope.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 10 Sep 2008 01:29

Rahul M wrote:I mentioned those two a/c as I had followed some discussion elsewhere that claimed likewise.
IIRC, there was also some documentation to back those claims. not being an expert I can't vouch for the accuracy of those claims.

I don't suppose you have the details...?

my armchair expertise on this issue :
AFAIK evading AAMs involves either dives to break radar lock (as your scenarios demonstrate) or using the speed of the missile against it. the a/c waits till the missile is close enough and then executes a sudden change in direction/flip to let the missile overshoot. this would work only against the medium/long ranged missiles which can withstand lesser g-forces and are much less maneuverable than WVR missiles.
another way is to present your side aspect to the missile and engage it in an energy wasting turn. useful if the missile is at the extreme end of its envelope.

Not to mention active ECMs, chaff, flares (for WVR missiles) etc.

But all said and done, the Astra is a good step forward for Indian missile designers. When entering a new field, you have to start somewhere...

-Vivek

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Sep 2008 01:41

I don't suppose you have the details...?

no boss, no details retained.

Not to mention active ECMs, chaff, flares (for WVR missiles) etc.

yes, I mentioned only the kinetic measures.

But all said and done, the Astra is a good step forward for Indian missile designers. When entering a new field, you have to start somewhere...

AFA I can see, astra is supposed to match/exceed the capabilities of the latest amraam.
if they can finish the project by 2011, it would be a watershed event. (I'll buy mithai equal to the wt of one astra for BRFites

)

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 10 Sep 2008 04:18

Pentagon notifies US Congress of missile sale to India

WASHINGTON: The Pentagon said on Tuesday it has notified the US Congress of a possible sale to India of two dozen Harpoon air to ground anti-ship missiles.

Such a deal would be worth as much as 170 million dollars, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency said.

"India intends to use the Harpoon missiles to modernize its air force anti-surface warfare mission capabilities and improve its naval operational flexibility," the agency said in a statement.

Boeing would be the prime contractor.

The 84L Harpoon Block II missiles are designed primarily as satellite guided anti-ship missiles.

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Sep 2008 04:30

those are for the poseidons

and "Although initially tested on United States Navy ships, the decision was made to not procure Harpoon Block II for the US Fleet. Boeing claims 28 foreign navies as Block II costumers."

source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-84_Harpoon

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 10 Sep 2008 04:54

I hope those Harpoon are not for Poseidon! 20 Harpoons are not even sufficient to arm all 6 poseidon IN is planning to acquire.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 10 Sep 2008 05:07

Are these for the Jaguars? Why harpoon? We already have Kh-35, KH-31 and brahmos in works. Are we procuring Kh-58/59?

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 10 Sep 2008 06:13

Hmm didn't pakis order a few (20-60) odd. These might be useful to develop counter measures.

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 10 Sep 2008 06:22

sunilUpa wrote:I hope those Harpoon are not for Poseidon! 20 Harpoons are not even sufficient to arm all 6 poseidon IN is planning to acquire.

These are most likely the Sea Eagle replacement.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 10 Sep 2008 06:24

There is more to it than meets the eye. There is a pattern emerging, seems like unkil is getting real tired of paki obfuscation. Chicken are coming home to roost. War is not on horizon but the prepration has started. If pakis have procured 20-60 Harpoon II that are satellite guided you can be assured they are dud now. Looks like US Congress has given informal approval behind close doors to Bush Administration, it is just a matter of taking up for vote. MRCA deal seems to be locked up too. All other agreements that were pending due to Commies Cry baby tantrums will be concluded. Things are moving way too fast in some arenas. Whats next Kitty Hawk type vessel construction in India, Unkils boys make money by providing desing and consultancy.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 10 Sep 2008 06:42

New tech to boost missile range by 40%
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/New ... 464620.cms

BANGALORE: Indian scientists have developed path-breaking technology that has the potential to increase the range of missiles and satellite launch vehicles by at least 40%, a member of the team which achieved the technological breakthrough said.

India’s longest-range missile, Agni III, is capable of hitting targets 3,500 km away and the new technology could boost its range to 4,900 km. The enhanced range is made possible by adding a special-purpose coating of chromium metal to the blunt nose cone of missiles and launch vehicles, G Jagadeesh, an assistant professor at the Indian Institute of Science (IISc) here said.

IISc, which is in celebrating its centenary this year, has applied for an international patent for the technology.

“Objects such as missiles fly at hypersonic velocities which are more than five times the speed of sound and encounter atmospheric drag because of friction. The chromium coating works by adding temporary heat and pushing the stagnating gas away to create an easier path,” Mr Jagadeesh said. Laboratory experiments have shown that atmospheric drag because of the coating fell by 47% and Mr Jagadeesh said a “conservative estimate” was that this would result in range going up at least 40%.

The findings of the team—which also includes Vinayak Kulkarni of IIT-Guwahati and G M Hegde, E Arunan and K P J Reddy of IISc—have been reported in the latest issue of the Physics of Fluids journal published by the American Institute of Physics.

The breakthrough also has potential to help avert problems of the type which led to break up in 2003 of the American space shuttle Columbia when it was re-entering the earth’s atmosphere. The disaster was caused by damage to the shuttle’s thermal protection system, killing seven crew members, including astronaut of Indian origin Kalpana Chawla.

The special-purpose coating in place of the tiles and panels which now protect orbiters against extreme heat during re-entry into the atmosphere is seen as distinct possibility.

“The coating evaporates once the object has re-entered the atmosphere. This novel method is path-breaking because additional energy is not required to reduce drag; objects which travel into space need to carry a much lower fuel load,” he said.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Sep 2008 06:58

IISc, which is in celebrating its centenary this year, has applied for an international patent for the technology.

Juts curious. Is that wise?

Also, do we now have a viable ICBM?

Anyways, timely news.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 10 Sep 2008 07:18

^^^ OT, There is no such thing called 'international patent'! Patents are valid only within the boundaries of the nation where it has been granted.

nrao, one doesn't disclose everything in the patent. AFAIK this news has been reported earlier, some time in 2007 or early 2008.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 10 Sep 2008 07:55

India - HARPOON Block II Missiles

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 10 Sep 2008 08:04

This is just a paper research in a university worth a research paper in journal and a patent. The news is worth nothing and the rediculous claims are laughable at best. only university profs are capable of making these kind of claims

You can apply for patents that are valid all over the world ( the world that matters).

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 10 Sep 2008 08:12

Katare wrote: You can apply for patents that are valid all over the world ( the world that matters).

OT: You have to apply in each individual country; there is nothing like international patent.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 10 Sep 2008 08:16

Rahul M wrote:
Katare wrote:What About contamporary AA missiles of US/Russian airforce? Can they intercept an aircraft manuvering at Mach-2.0?
the wiki page, which is otherwise quite detailed is silent on this issue. may be these type of details (max speed of target) are usually not shared widely by the manufacturers.

one interesting tid bit :
Although in this regard the RVV-AE (which is the missiles export name or R-77 the official Russian Air force designation) does have an advantage as it is faster and has a greater range than the AMRAAM. Meaning that the Russian airplane firing it can in fact fire first, although it still needs to lead the missile towards the target as the missiles own radar seeker has a limited range (under 10km, as on AMRAAM).
intended range of astra's seeker is 15 km. IIRC there were some reports that MBDA's seeker (meteor?) would be used.
dimensionwise, astra is smaller than the amraam but heavier, probably due to denser propellant given that it is supposed to have as much range as the D version.
all in all, very ambitious project.

P.S. I just wish we had a project for an electro-optic guided SRAAM. even license production of the python-V will do.

That is what I thought would be the case, Indian armed forces always ask for the sky with two moons.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 10 Sep 2008 08:25

SunilU,

I don't want to hijack the thread but your statement on international patents is wrong. You can apply in multiple countries at the same time and have the patent valid in all those countries at the same time (if it issues) due to the Patent Cooperation Treaty. The mechanics of this are handled by WIPO, the World Intellectual Property Organization. I know because I am a patent attorney. We have inventors routinely apply for protection in certain valuable countries, at the same time due to concerns with patent infringement. India is now a signatory that adheres to the PCT because the penalty for not signing was harsh trade penalties specified in GATT (global trade agreement). This is good and bad. That is another discussion. Carry on with the missiles

sum · Post by **sum** » 10 Sep 2008 08:40

WASHINGTON: The Pentagon said on Tuesday it has notified the US Congress of a possible sale to India of two dozen Harpoon air to ground anti-ship missiles

Now,where did this emerge from? There were not even rumours about this!!!!

Can only hope that we dont make the missile inventory a circus/hotch-potch of all possible missiles like our aircraft fleet used to/still resembles....Will only lead to logistical nightmares.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Sep 2008 08:50

sea eagle replacements. the sea kings will probably not change over, but the EL2032 equipped naval Jaguars would certainly need to.

expect more quantity when the Seaking replacements are ordered and the P8I.

the Urans are getting long in tooth and do not have the land attack capability of
harpoon...there could be a move to replace the uran on smaller FFG/corvette types
going fwd with Harpoon.

God..I love being a Munna...

.....ordinarily this would be a 5 yr project
with two scandals in between. FMS potus2goi cuts out the middlemen and unlike
rosboronexport the US vendors probably operate through their own liaison offices
here rather than 'agents'.

Ru is slowly and steadily losing the market. T-90 & MKI seems to be the only
guaranteed cash flow for next decade unless they snare us into the pakfa.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 10 Sep 2008 09:52

Wait until spare parts are under sanctions during war

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 10 Sep 2008 10:06

Humm .... ... I would like to know what is the assumption of this claim that range of missile can increase bt at least 40%. My take is 47% drag reduction can optimistically increase range for say a medium payload A3 by <8%.

But hay if this is what it takes for official range of Agni to go up from 3500 km to 4900 km then what can I say, just give that missile two coats of chromium!

After New-clear deal even missile range is now-clearing up, all the while sitting in the shed; reverse psy-op

vishwakarmaa wrote:
New tech to boost missile range by 40%
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/New ... 464620.cms

BANGALORE: Indian scientists have developed path-breaking technology that has the potential to increase the range of missiles and satellite launch vehicles by at least 40%, a member of the team which achieved the technological breakthrough said.

India’s longest-range missile, Agni III, is capable of hitting targets 3,500 km away and the new technology could boost its range to 4,900 km. The enhanced range is made possible by adding a special-purpose coating of chromium metal to the blunt nose cone of missiles and launch vehicles, G Jagadeesh, an assistant professor at the Indian Institute of Science (IISc) here said.

IISc, which is in celebrating its centenary this year, has applied for an international patent for the technology.

“Objects such as missiles fly at hypersonic velocities which are more than five times the speed of sound and encounter atmospheric drag because of friction. The chromium coating works by adding temporary heat and pushing the stagnating gas away to create an easier path,” Mr Jagadeesh said. Laboratory experiments have shown that atmospheric drag because of the coating fell by 47% and Mr Jagadeesh said a “conservative estimate” was that this would result in range going up at least 40%.

The findings of the team—which also includes Vinayak Kulkarni of IIT-Guwahati and G M Hegde, E Arunan and K P J Reddy of IISc—have been reported in the latest issue of the Physics of Fluids journal published by the American Institute of Physics.

The breakthrough also has potential to help avert problems of the type which led to break up in 2003 of the American space shuttle Columbia when it was re-entering the earth’s atmosphere. The disaster was caused by damage to the shuttle’s thermal protection system, killing seven crew members, including astronaut of Indian origin Kalpana Chawla.

The special-purpose coating in place of the tiles and panels which now protect orbiters against extreme heat during re-entry into the atmosphere is seen as distinct possibility.

“The coating evaporates once the object has re-entered the atmosphere. This novel method is path-breaking because additional energy is not required to reduce drag; objects which travel into space need to carry a much lower fuel load,” he said.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Sep 2008 10:44

Wait until spare parts are under sanctions during war

its a one use throwaway item not a plane. does need servicing every few
yrs but mostly such parts like batteries will be in hand for first line work.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Sep 2008 10:53

Anyway, it doesnt matter. The only wars we are going to fight are the ones that are "approved" and will be done in a "co-op engagement" framework. Has been the case for quite sometime. So it does not matter. Pakis must be heaving a sigh of relief - they wont loose any more wars.

The harpoons are a good bet against at least the chinese surface combatants. If we get to keep up with the USN Block upgrades, we might still get something useful out of this, as the seekers/target libs/ECM etc would be tiptop against the PLAN.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 10 Sep 2008 10:54

Harpoon is probably the best western anti-ship missile. I doubt Ru will loose any market over it. IN's premier missiles are brahmos and klub not some c-grade harpoon or exocet. I hope DRDO uses them to develop countermeasures against Pakis and their P-3's. Actually strike that IAF should have gone for NSM, far better than harpoon.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 10 Sep 2008 11:03

New tech to boost missile range by 40%

Maybe its 4 %...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Sep 2008 12:40

the news doesn't specify whether IAF or IN. the harpoons could as well be for the SHars.
RN Shars carried it IIRC.

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 10 Sep 2008 15:02

But why the high costs ? Are they going to be gold plated ? And why only 24 ? Isn't that too small a number ?

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 10 Sep 2008 15:34

Harpoons for jaguars was reported in indian media over a year back. In fact the report was more like IAF wanted harpoons but MOD was complaining that the tender didn't involve multiple vendors or something like that.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 10 Sep 2008 15:40

A Sharma wrote:Harpoons for jaguars was reported in indian media over a year back. In fact the report was more like IAF wanted harpoons but MOD was complaining that the tender didn't involve multiple vendors or something like that.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-2961

India's Air Force and Defence Ministry are clashing over procurement of air-launched anti-ship missiles. Ministry officials complain that only one bidder has been shortlisted, while Air Force leaders claim they are being pressured to accept lesser capabilities.

Boeing's Harpoon was the only missile among those offered by five competitors that service officials said met their requirements to replace the Sea Eagle anti-ship missiles that arm the Jaguar aircraft fleet.

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Sep 2008 16:48

Forgive me if i am wrong.Whats this thing for multiple vendors ? If someone has what you need and willing to sell you whats wrong in just getting it ? Now is this a good or bad thing ? Just like the spyders the HARPOONs are the best in its class.What is the MOD trying to prove?