Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Nitesh » 10 Sep 2008 17:01

kit wrote:Forgive me if i am wrong.Whats this thing for multiple vendors ? If someone has what you need and willing to sell you whats wrong in just getting it ? Now is this a good or bad thing ? Just like the spyders the HARPOONs are the best in its class.What is the MOD trying to prove?

The official statement is "Without competition in one deal we can't bargain for better prices" :(( :((

The actual statement is "Without multiple vendors in race chances of chai bikoot sessions are negligible". :evil: :evil:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 10 Sep 2008 18:16

Anant wrote:SunilU,

I don't want to hijack the thread but your statement on international patents is wrong. You can apply in multiple countries at the same time and have the patent valid in all those countries at the same time (if it issues) due to the Patent Cooperation Treaty. The mechanics of this are handled by WIPO, the World Intellectual Property Organization. I know because I am a patent attorney. We have inventors routinely apply for protection in certain valuable countries, at the same time due to concerns with patent infringement. India is now a signatory that adheres to the PCT because the penalty for not signing was harsh trade penalties specified in GATT (global trade agreement). This is good and bad. That is another discussion. Carry on with the missiles :)


OT warning

Anant,

Sorry, I was not very clear in what I wanted to convey. While one can certainly apply a petent application under PCT, designating multiple country, the granting authority is still vested with national (such as India, US or China etc) or regional (such as EU) patent offices. WIPO doesn't have the authority to 'grant' a patent. WIPO can accept an application, do a International search wrt to patentability (International search authority, ISA), publish an International search report. But after that the application will enter 'National Phase', where in the applicant has to pursue grant of patents with each individual national patent office.

Getting patent in say India, will not give automatic protection for the invention in say USA, unless USA is also a designated country under PCT application and the applicant has the patent issued in USA.

We can take further discussion of this topic to another thread.

My last post on the topic in this thread. My apologies to all.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Raj Malhotra » 11 Sep 2008 11:04

US$ 170 for 20 missile is extra-ordinary expensive. Though it would be in keeping with trend of high price single vendor deals. IIRC even exocets for IN Scorpene were purchased for US$ 6 million or so each. Now we seem to have gone upto US$ 8.5 million each for Harpoons.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 11 Sep 2008 18:38

X-posting..

Israeli firms set to get another defence deal

Central vigilance panel clears Rs10,400cr joint venture for missiles

NEW DELHI: In an unusual development, the Central Vigilance Commission has given the go-ahead for a massive joint venture with two Israeli defence firms that are under investigation for kickbacks in the Barak missile scandal.

The JV that involves Israel Aerospace Industries and Rafael teaming up with India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and the Indian Air Force to build medium range surface-to-air missiles (MRSAMs) could be kickstarted very soon, sources said. The deal, worth Rs10,400 crore, would be India’s biggest defence JV with a foreign country.

The CVC clearance for the project — it has been on hold since June 2007 despite approval from the cabinet committee on security — has caused surprise in official circles. For, a few months ago, the law ministry had given a very ambivalent opinion on the JV when the ministry of defence (MoD) referred the matter to it.

Sources said the CVC clearance for the deal came in the last week of August and the “file is being processed”. The CVC approval is a clear departure from the government’s policy on defence scandals and middlemen. Over the past few decades, the government has blacklisted firms such as Bofors and Denel of South Africa when allegations rose of them paying middlemen, even before clear evidence was found of corruption. Official circles were, however, reticent on the latest development.
The CBI has claimed in its Barak chargesheet that it has found evidence of kickbacks in the original Barak deal of 1999-2000. That Rs1,150-crore deal for the purchase of seven Barak-1 anti-missile defence systems made by Israel Aerospace Industries and Rafael had been opposed by the DRDO. The CBI has named then defence minister George Fernandes, then navy chief Admiral Susheel Kumar, and arms dealer Suresh Nanda among others in the deal.


The investigations started after Fernandes’s Samata Party’s treasurer RK Jain was caught on camera speaking about kickbacks, in a sting operation carried out by Tehelka.

The CVC clearance now reflects the unprecedented run Israel is having in the Indian defence market. Only a few days ago, the cabinet committee on security cleared the outright purchase of Spyder low-level quick reaction missiles from the same Israeli consortium of IAI and Rafael. The Israeli consortium already has a programme in collaboration with DRDO under way for developing a ship-borne next generation Barak (called Barak NG) for the Indian Navy.

However, the move to now firm up a JV with IAI-Rafael would have much more serious repercussions for the future, because of the virtual monopoly it would offer the Israelis in IAF’s MRSAM domain.

Sources said the proposed MRSAM JV would initially build two regiments, 36 numbers, for the IAF. Only the missile launcher and the command post would be made in India, the rest of the complex system including the missile itself would be made in Israel. :shock:

The proposed MRSAM will replace the old Pechora missiles of the IAF, and would have a range of about 70 km. DRDO will station at least 25 of its scientists in Israel for the project. The first prototype is planned in about two and a half years and the development would be completed in five years from its start.


Barak and Barak NG for the Navy, Spyder and MR-SAM for IAF, that covers almost whole Air defence system!

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby sum » 11 Sep 2008 19:46

Thanks god that the Barak didnt get held up....

If only Bofors and Denel had taken tuitons from the Yahudis on working with/greasing the MoD/Finance babus, we wouldn't have reached the sorry state of affairs on the artillery front like we are in today (and we would have also had the Bhim and spanking new 155 mm howitzers strutting around in full glory...) :cry:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Surya » 11 Sep 2008 19:48

That reports tone is full of mischief.

Somebody wants to sabotage it desperately

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby ramana » 11 Sep 2008 20:33

Surya wrote:That reports tone is full of mischief.

Somebody wants to sabotage it desperately


DNA editorial policy looks like its being in India and look at India as outsiders. that toen is there in every story they report even about Bollywood. I stopped reading long ago.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 12 Sep 2008 16:57

This missile will go beyond visual range

Defence scientists are planning to conduct a series of tests of indigenously developed India’s first beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile ‘Astra’.

The decision comes days after the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) gave a clean waiver to India to carry out nuclear commerce. A source in the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur, 15 km from here, said the test would be conducted between September 11 and 20.

‘‘The scientists have planned to carry out two or three tests of ‘Astra.’ The missile would be launched from complex II of the ITR,’’ the source said.

‘If weather permits and everything goes as planned, the first attempt may be made on Thursday. Or else, the tests will be conducted on September 13 and 17 for which range integration has already been completed,’ it added.

‘Astra’ missile, a part of India’s Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP), has been developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The aim is to equip the Indian Air Force’s Mirage 2000, MiG-29, Su-30 MKI and the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) with an indigenously-designed beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM).

The missile, which has strike range of 25 to 40 km, uses a terminal active radar-seeker and a mid-course internal guidance system with updates to track targets. The on-board capability allows it to jam radar signals from an enemy’s surface-to-air battery, ensuring that the missile is not tracked or shot down.

‘The 3.6-metre long missile has a launch weight of about 154 kg and uses solid-fuel propellant and a 15 kg high-explosive warhead, activated by a proximity fuse. The missile has a maximum speed of 2.2 Mach and a maximum altitude of 20 km,’ said a scientist.

‘Although designed to use a locally-developed solid fuel propellant, DRDO is reportedly looking at rocket/ramjet propulsion to provide greater range and enhanced kinematics performance,’ he said.

Being extremely complex, only a few countries like the US, Russia, France and Israel have managed to develop BVR missiles.

Once operational, the ‘Astra’ will be cheaper and advanced, capable of destroying highly-manoeuvrable supersonic aerial targets, the scientist added


http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... kuKw=&SEO=

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby ravi naik » 12 Sep 2008 22:05

I was disappointed to read the above news.

The 'Astra' as it was envisaged according to my knowledge was going to have a max. speed and range much greater than mentioned in the news. something like mach3+ and range of 70 km.

Mach 2.2 is quite insufficient relative to many of today's fighter aircraft which have more speed.

as we know top speeds

Mig 29 : Mach 2.3
F-15 : mach 2.5
su-27: mach 2.3 etc.

I am not suggesting that the target fighter would be able to always be able to escape by achieving top speed, but there is a small chance. Also the probability of a successful intercept reduces.

The max. speed of both AMRAAM and R-77 is mach 4.

I do now that R & D of such missiles is complex, but I believe the missile capability should be contemporary. Otherwise in spite of the effort put in by DRDO at the end it might be classified as a technology demonstrator.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Rahul M » 12 Sep 2008 22:12

name changed to ravi naik. previous username was against forum guidelines.
welcome to the forum.


ravi, the report above is full of holes. check astra's specs here :
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Astra.html

range is 80km and max speed is 4mach+.

the last couple of pages of this thread might answer some of the points in your post. please go through those pages.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Raj Malhotra » 12 Sep 2008 22:31

The aforesaid report makes me believe that there are 3 versions of Astra:-


First with head on range of 80km
Second with head on range of 100km
and third which would be ramjet perhaps with range of anything like 150km

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Rahul M » 12 Sep 2008 22:38

Raj, I think that is unlikely. the report doesn't say that does it ?

if this is the part that led you to think of 3 versions,
The missile, which has strike range of 25 to 40 km, uses a terminal active radar-seeker and a mid-course internal guidance system with updates to track targets. The on-board capability allows it to jam radar signals from an enemy’s surface-to-air battery, ensuring that the missile is not tracked or shot down.

I had thought the reporter had made a mistake.
On second reading, I think this is referring to the no escape kill zone which is about 30-50% of the max range of 80 km, which is usual.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Kartik » 13 Sep 2008 01:52

another error in that report is regarding Astra being jam-proof from surface to air batteries..it should be jam proof against the target aircraft's electronic countermeasures..

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Singha » 13 Sep 2008 07:38

amraam has a launch weight of 150kg and a 50-70km head on range. speed mach4 using
climb, motor burnout and dive profile.

astra with a similar weight should be able to match this range and speed if it aspires for
acceptance into IAF. else it has no chance. IAF will simply go for Mica or Derby instead.

Matra 530D is 270kg launch weight with a large 30kg warhead and also does Mach4.

anything less than Mach4 and the closing will be slow, permitting fighters to leave the
no escape zone more easily.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby pkudva » 13 Sep 2008 10:27

It was earlier confirmed by DRDO scientists and media reports as well that the missile will have a kill range of about 60km-80 km.
But now has now been quoted as 25km-40 km. I think this is the initial phase of the development and after succesful trails then may be they might go for full load trails where the kill range will be 80km.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 13 Sep 2008 12:47

Air-to-air missile 'Astra' test-fired successfully

Balasore, Orissa, September 13: India's indigenously developed, beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile 'Astra' was on Saturday successfully test-fired from the integrated test range (ITR) at Chandipur in Orissa.
The missile was test-fired from a launcher in the launch pad number 2 of the ITR complex at about 1205 hours. After data analysis of the flight test, another test may be conducted in the next couple of days if needed, defence sources said.

"Before being made full operational, the complex missile system would undergo some more trials, though test on its navigation, control, air frame, propulsion and other sub-system have been validated," said a source from the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) at ITR.

The single stage, solid fuelled 'Astra' missile ‘is more advanced in its category than the contemporary BVR missiles and it is capable of engaging and destroying highly manoeuvrable supersonic aerial targets,’ the source added.

Describing 'Astra' as futuristic missile, DRDO scientists said the weapon could intercept the target at supersonic speeds (mach 1.2 to 1.4).

Though the exact range of Saturday's trial has not been disclosed, scientists are working to ensure that 'Astra' performs effectively at different altitudes - one cruising at an altitude of 15 km with 90 to 110 km range, another at an altitude up to 30,000 ft, having a range of 44 km and the third at sea level altitude with a range of 30 km.

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... ly/360997/

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 13 Sep 2008 12:50

India successfully test-fires indigenous Astra missile

New Delhi, Sept 13: India successfully test-fired on Saturday the indigenously developed beyond-visual-range ‘air-to-air’ missile Astra from the Integrated Test Range, Chandipur-on-sea, off the Orissa coast.

This was second of the four ground-level flight trials. The first trail was held two days ago on September 11. The subsequent tests will be conducted in the period of one-and-half to two months.

Scientists of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) conducted the ground-level flight test of the missile that is capable of intercepting fast-moving targets at supersonic speeds (1.2 to 1.4 Mach).

Astra Project Director S Gollakota said that scientists would test the guidance, avionics and the functioning of the communication link between the mother aircraft and the missile. The communication link in Radio Frequency would be tested and validated.

The tests would be used to generate data relating to temperature, vibration, stress and strain levels experienced by the missile at different speeds and altitudes.

The four trials would be followed by captive flight tests early next year when the missile would be mated to the aircraft. Several manoeuvres at different speeds and altitudes would be conducted and the compatibility of electronics, avionics and other systems checked. After the captive flight tests, the missile would be integrated with the Sukhoi-30 and test-fired by the middle of next year.

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=468789&sid=NAT

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby ranganathan » 13 Sep 2008 12:58

I wish for once the DRDO would come out with the max speed and range spec. A mach 1-2 missile would never get accepted by IAF. Heck heavier Akash has a speed of mach 2.5-3.5.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby K Mehta » 13 Sep 2008 13:00

ranganathan sir,
relax. IAF wants this missile, dont go by DDM reports.
and this is just mk-1, mk-2 is being developed with longer range.
Great news by the way, wish they could finish this testing fast and get it inducted.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby ranganathan » 13 Sep 2008 13:02

Range is not the issue. Even if it only has 30 km range use it to replace R-73, python-4 etc but the speed is important. A BVR missile needs to be > mach 4 to close in on the target.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Dhanush » 13 Sep 2008 13:15

Astra Project Director S Gollakota said that scientists would test the guidance, avionics and the functioning of the communication link between the mother aircraft and the missile. The communication link in Radio Frequency would be tested and validated.

The tests would be used to generate data relating to temperature, vibration, stress and strain levels experienced by the missile at different speeds and altitudes.

The four trials would be followed by captive flight tests early next year when the missile would be mated to the aircraft. Several manoeuvres at different speeds and altitudes would be conducted and the compatibility of electronics, avionics and other systems checked. After the captive flight tests, the missile would be integrated with the Sukhoi-30 and test-fired by the middle of next year.


So, we are at least a year away from testing ASTRA with the real platform SU-30. The earlier reports from DDM were completely misleading.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Mihir.D » 13 Sep 2008 13:30

ranganathan wrote:Range is not the issue. Even if it only has 30 km range use it to replace R-73, python-4 etc but the speed is important. A BVR missile needs to be > mach 4 to close in on the target.



Dude,
Astra is in the AMRAAM/R-77 family of missiles. The R-73,P-4 belong to a different family.. heat seeking,IIR. By the way when did the IAF start using the Python-4 ?
What matters is the no escape zone and the range of the seeker.
If the ASTRA has a no escape zone of 30-40 Km with a speed of 2.2 then whats the worry ?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Raghavendra » 13 Sep 2008 13:34

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
India successfully test-fires indigenous Astra missile

New Delhi, Sept 13: India successfully test-fired on Saturday the indigenously developed beyond-visual-range ‘air-to-air’ missile Astra from the Integrated Test Range, Chandipur-on-sea, off the Orissa coast.

This was second of the four ground-level flight trials. The first trail was held two days ago on September 11. The subsequent tests will be conducted in the period of one-and-half to two months.

Scientists of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) conducted the ground-level flight test of the missile that is capable of intercepting fast-moving targets at supersonic speeds (1.2 to 1.4 Mach).

Astra Project Director S Gollakota said that scientists would test the guidance, avionics and the functioning of the communication link between the mother aircraft and the missile. The communication link in Radio Frequency would be tested and validated.

The tests would be used to generate data relating to temperature, vibration, stress and strain levels experienced by the missile at different speeds and altitudes.

The four trials would be followed by captive flight tests early next year when the missile would be mated to the aircraft. Several manoeuvres at different speeds and altitudes would be conducted and the compatibility of electronics, avionics and other systems checked. After the captive flight tests, the missile would be integrated with the Sukhoi-30 and test-fired by the middle of next year.

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=468789&sid=NAT


Now porkistanis will have to run and beg before the hu emperor to get another ding dong missile to counter this indian missile.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Shankar » 13 Sep 2008 13:39

well pakistan can dream but china will never give astra level missile to Pakistan ever

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby jamwal » 13 Sep 2008 14:01

Shankar wrote:well pakistan can dream but china will never give astra level missile to Pakistan ever



China has already provided Pakisatan with nukes, muclear capable missiles, planes and much more. Whats stopping them from transferring an air to air missile??

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Avinash R » 13 Sep 2008 14:07

Astra'test-fired successfully
Sat, Sep 13 01:08 PM

Balasore (Orissa), Sep 13 (PTI) India's indigenously developed, beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile 'Astra' was today successfully test-fired from the integrated test range (ITR) at Chandipur in Orissa. The missile was test-fired from a launcher in the launch pad number 2 of the ITR complex at about 1205 hours.

After data analysis of the flight test, another test may be conducted in the next couple of days if needed, defence sources said. "Before being made full operational, the complex missile system would undergo some more trials, though test on its navigation, control, air frame, propulsion and other sub-system have been validated," said a source from the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) at ITR.

The single stage, solid fuelled 'Astra' missile "is more advanced in its category than the contemporary BVR missiles and it is capable of engaging and destroying highly manoeuvrable supersonic aerial targets," the source added.

Describing 'Astra' as futuristic missile, DRDO scientists said the weapon could intercept the target at supersonic speeds (mach 1.2 to 1.4). Though the exact range of today's trial has not been disclosed, scientists are working to ensure that 'Astra' performs effectively at different altitudes - one cruising at an altitude of 15 km with 90 to 110 km range, another at an altitude up to 30,000 ft, having a range of 44 km and the third at sea level altitude with a range of 30 km.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Avinash R » 13 Sep 2008 14:09

Astra missile successfully test fired
Sat, Sep 13 01:24 PM

Balasore (Orissa), Sep 13 - India successfully test fired the Astra air-to-air missile from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) of Chandipur-on-sea off the Orissa coast Saturday.

'Astra is a beyond visual range air-to-air missile. The test was a success," S.P. Das, director of the ITR, told IANS.

"There may be some more tests in the next couple of days," he added.

State-run Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) has already completed the control flights of Astra, designed for an 80-km range in head-on mode and 20 km-range in tail-chase mode.

The beyond visual range missile has been integrated with the carrier aircraft Sukhoi-30 MKI and might be integrated with other fighter jets (Mirage 2000 and MiG 29) once all tests are done to verify its accuracy in destroying manoeuvring targets.

The Hyderabad-based Defence Research & Development Laboratory (DRDL) took nearly five years to develop the 150-kg tactical missile at an estimated cost of Rs.10 billion under the integrated guided missile development programme of the DRDO.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby sum » 13 Sep 2008 14:13

Describing 'Astra' as futuristic missile, DRDO scientists said the weapon could intercept the target at supersonic speeds (mach 1.2 to 1.4).

Guess ,it is 1.2 Mach then....Does seem a bit less when up against contemporary fighters..

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Nitesh » 14 Sep 2008 07:01

India needs Harpoons? – Analysis

http://frontier india.net/india-needs-harpoons-analysis

Written on September 13, 2008 – 4:01 pm | by P. Chacko Joseph |

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency on September 9, 2008, notified US Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sales that includes HARPOON Block II Missiles to India. The possible sale might include 20 AGM-84L HARPOON Block II missiles and 4 ATM-84L HARPOON Block II Exercise missiles. The Harpoon missile was developed to be used in US Navy as the basic anti-ship missile. It has been adapted to be used on submarines, aircrafts and land launchers in addition to surface ships.

AGM-84L HARPOON Block II

AGM-84L is the air launched version of the Harpoons. Boeing advertised specifications of AGM-84L are Length: 3.84 meters, width: 0.34 meters and Weight: 526 kg (all approx). Harpoon Block II is capable of executing both anti-ship and land strike missions. As per the Boeing brochure, conventional anti-ship missions, such as open ocean and near land, the GPS/INS eliminates mid-course guidance errors en route to the target area. The accurate navigation solution coupled with launch system improvements combine to offer better discrimination of target ships from islands, nearby land masses or other ships. These Block II improvements maintain Harpoon’s high hit probability against ships very close to land or traveling in congested sea lanes.

AGM-84L is a mid range antiship missile with a range in excess of 124 kms. This makes is a mid range anti-ship missile. The main competitors are the French Exocet AM-39, with a range of up to 70 km; Russian Kh-35 (AS-20 Kayak) with estimated 130 km range and Swedish RBS-15 Mk. II with 70+ kms range. All of these are sub sonic cruise missiles.

Air Launched Anti-Ship Missles in Indian Service

By mid-80s, No.6 Squadron of the Indian air Force was equipped with the Maritime Jaguar carrying the then British Sea Eagle anti-ship sea-skimming missiles. Indians have been in the arms bazaar for its replacement. Indian Navy Sea Kings can carry these missiles too. India is also in the process of integrating its heavier air platforms like SU-30 MKI with Brahmos anti-ship cruise missiles. Brahmos is a longer range missile and does not fall in the Harpoon class of missiles.

The US notification mentioned that, “India intends to use the HARPOON missiles to modernize its Air Force Anti-Surface Warfare mission capabilities and improve its naval operational flexibility. The missiles will assist the Indian Navy to develop and enhance standardization and operational ability with the United States.” The AGM-84L is probably destined for the maritime Jaguar squadron or the SU-30 MKI’s are to be adapted for maritime strike roles.

The other air assets that can use AGM-84L are the Indian Sea Kings or their successors. Since the US F-18’s can carry Harpoons, Indian Navy MiG-29’s can also theoretically launched from the Air Craft carrier with Harpoon payloads. The Russian AS-20 Kayak though have been offered with MiG-29K, but, somehow does not seem to be an option as even IL38 Sea Dragon upgrades did also not feature these missiles. AGM-84L Block II or its Block III version can be packaged with P-8I (US Navy version P-8A Poseidon) maritime resonance aircraft intended for Indian Navy.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Raj Malhotra » 14 Sep 2008 12:31

There were earlier reports that two versions of Astra are being developed. One with 80km head on range and second with 100km head on range. Now the latest report talks about ramjet version also. I think jumping to Ramjet from the present Astra missile would be a pretty long shot, so am assuming three versions of the missile.

My guess is that 80km range Astra is a missile with short time fast burn motor (5.4 sec) to reach a max speed of 4mach quickly. The next version would be missile with single stage but two grain structure which will give it quick boost with longer sustainer burn, thus a longer effective range with 100km head on range. The third version would be Ramjet version where max range may remain same but “effective range” doubles specially in chase mode.

The present test does NOT talk about seeker being tested. So my guess is test launch from aircraft in mid 2009, launch from ground equipped with seeker end 2009, launch from aircraft equipped with seeker mid 2010, user tests end 2010, induction into service 2012 or so for Astra Mk1, 2015 for Astra Mk-2 and 2018 for Astra Mk-3 Ramjet.

Note missile may have max speed of Mach 4 but their average speed is only around Mach2 or so. Similarly aircraft may have Max speed of Mach 2-2.2 but their max combat speed is only around Mach 1.2-1.4, they cannot practically reach speed above this range without running out of time, space, fuel or falling apart. Off course some exceptions are Mig-25, Mig31, SR-71 etc.

On a side note, I was thinking that DRDO would develop multiple versions of Astra, I wonder why there is no mention of other possible variants of Astra missile like:-

i) Ground launched version like Spyder
ii) VLS for Naval Ships to replace Barak-1
iii) ARM versions for anti-radar use etc

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby geeth » 14 Sep 2008 12:46

IMO, as mentioned in one of the reports, the different range mentioned is for different altitudes, and unlikely that it is for different versions. Being an Air-to-Air missile, the speed of the mother craft at the time of launch also plays a vital role in the speed & range of the missile. The speed being quoted now could be that when it is launched from ground.

As for the ramjet version, it should be fairly easy, since Akash is already developed, which is a Ramjet missile. Some refinement ofcourse would be required, if not required to design a new engine all over again.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Raj Malhotra » 14 Sep 2008 12:55

I cannot locate the report but am Sure that a DRDO head honcho was quoted that there are two versions 80km and 100km. Incidentally the following report gives a lot more detail. Note - at 23km the ground launched missile would be already sub-sonic

Air-to-air missile Astra test-fired successfully

The missile, launched from a specially-built ground launcher hit two simulated targets within 40 seconds and met all the “mission objectives.” Both the targets were hit by the same vehicle. Soon after impacting the first target in 20 seconds, the missile was manoeuvred and hit the second target in 60 seconds.

He said the indigenously-developed anti-aircraft missile covered a range of 23 km in about 80 seconds. The advanced system’s avionics hardware and software, mid-course guidance and the data link of ground-based transmitter and air-borne data link receiver were validated during the trial.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby geeth » 14 Sep 2008 13:27

>>>I cannot locate the report but am Sure that a DRDO head honcho was quoted that there are two versions 80km and 100km.

I don't know about that. But personally, I don't see any reason to have two 'versions' for 80 and 100 KMs - I can understand if they say one for 80-100 km and another for (say) 150 Km range. What I mean is, the difference in range is too small to develop another 'verson'.

>>>Incidentally the following report gives a lot more detail. Note - at 23km the ground launched missile would be already sub-sonic

I don't know how you arrived at the conclusion that it would be 'sub-sonic' - to me it appears that it has reached a speed of around 1.2 Mach or so they claim.. The low mach is because it is launched from the ground, when it has to overcome its own weight plus the drag. If the same missile is launched from a fairly high altitude, its speed will be much more because,

a) the rocket thrust doesnot have to overcome weight (assuming horizontal flight)
b) The drag will be less since the air will be less dense
c) the initial speed will be that of the a/c (instead of zero when launched from ground)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Kakarat » 14 Sep 2008 14:49

'Astra' test fired for second consecutive day
Balasore (Orissa) (PTI): 'Astra', the indigenously developed beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile was successfully test fired from the integrated test range (ITR) at Chandipur in Orissa for the second consecutive day on Sunday.

The anti-aircraft missile, capable of ducking radar eyes and attacking enemy targets up to 110 km, was test fired from launch pad number 2 of the ITR complex at about 11.47 am, defence sources said.

The test was conducted after an analysis of the data generated from yesterday's flight trial in order to further validate all major parameters, they said.

'Astra' is a futuristic missile and will inetrcept the target at super-sonic speeds of mach 1.2 to 1.4, Defence Research Development Organisation scientists said.

The sleek single stage, solid fuelled 'Astra' is more advanced in its category than the contemporary BVR missiles and is capable of engaging and destroying highly manoeuverable supersonic aerial targets, a DRDO source said.

Some more trials would be conducted before the highly sophisticated missile system before is made fully operational, though test on its navigation, control, air frame, propulsion and other sub-systems have been validated, the source said.

Though the exact range of the trials conducted yesterday and today had not been disclosed, scientists are working to ensure that 'Astra' performed effectively at different altitudes - one cruising at an altitude of 15 km with 90 to 110 km range, another at an altitude up to 30,000 ft, having a range of 44 km and the third at sea level altitude with a range of 30 km, the sources said.

'Astra' is proposed to be integrated with combat fighter aircraft Sukhoi-30 next year and had undergone two experimental flight tests from the ITR launch complex at Chandipur on March 25 and 26 last year to study the ballistic performance and control of the missile at a low altitude and shorter range.

The tactical missile is capable of engaging and destroying fast moving aircraft at supersonic speed. It is 3.6 meters long, 7 inches in diameter and has launch weight of about 154 kg amking it the smallest weapon of DRDO's guided missile development programme in terms of size and weight.

It is capable of carrying 15 kg war head, the sources said.

Initially planned to arm Jaguar, Mig-29 and the indigenous light combat air-craft 'Tejas', DRDO officials are now concentrating on integarting the missile with Indian Air Force's front line fighter air-craft like Sukhoi-30 MKIs and Mirrage-2000.

The 'Astra' missile project is guided and led by Hyderabad-based Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) under the DRDO.

The prototype of the missile was first tested between May 9 and May 12, 2003 from the integrated test range at Chandipur.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby neerajb » 14 Sep 2008 15:13

The tactical missile is capable of engaging and destroying fast moving aircraft at supersonic speed. It is 3.6 meters long, 7 inches in diameter and has launch weight of about 154 kg amking it the smallest weapon of DRDO's guided missile development programme in terms of size and weight.


And I thought that Nag at 42 Kg and 1.90 meters is the smallest missile developed by DRDO under IGMDP.

Cheers...


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Avinash R » 14 Sep 2008 19:15



Superb pix, thanks to shiv and kakarat for posting it.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Singha » 14 Sep 2008 19:49

none of the thick white plume of a typical solid fuel ground to ground missile. this one looks like a smokeless
motor.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Sid » 14 Sep 2008 20:14



wow, looks like real quality weapon this time.

going forward Astra should also be developed into surface launched SAM just like US did with AM120.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Raveen » 14 Sep 2008 23:45

wouldnt the missle HAVE to be smokeless for multiple reasons?

1. You dont want to give away your location, spl if you have the BVR advantage, which is exactly what Astra is meant for
2. Smoke ingestion into launch aircraft engines could pose issues AFAIK


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