Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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K Mehta
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby K Mehta » 14 Aug 2008 21:19

tsarkar wrote:LOAL doesnt require datalink in some cases.

NAMICA Target Acquisition System with Low light CCD camera and thermal imager acquires the target and hands off the target designation to the missile IIR seeker in LOBL.

In LOAL, the missile is fired and the missile IIR seeker captures the tank using its inbuilt logic as a true fire and forget.

Not sure whether a short range missile like Nag has a datalink. It is touted as fire and forget. The engagement cycle is very brief for datalink updates - missile flight time is 16 seconds to 4 km.

However, in missiles with datalink, in LOAL, the missile is fired and target designates are transferred from sensor platform to missile via datalink.

Re-reading my notes, from the lecture.
Lock on before launch (LOBL) Fire and forget mode.
Lock on after launch (LOAL) both fire and forget as well as guided mode. Dont know how and what way, but the slide showed two nice arrows going from LOAL to active and guided. Again this I cant confirm by other means so FWIW.

ramana wrote:K Mehta, and Jane's correspondent in India is Rahul Bedi who is a self claimed leftist defence reporter. :eek:

The moral of the story is to seek from all sources and apply your own filters.
A simple procedure is:
1) read the news without opinion initially.
2) see what does it confirm that you know already.
3) filter out all the standard phrases.
4) what new info does the story convey?
5) can you corroborate the info in item 4?

Ramanaji, that is eggjactly what i meant by "So you can guess how bad it can be"
That guy can give Vivek and chorgupta a run for their money. The bright side is that due to increase in openness of DRDO and IA, a lot of reports are now official reports and not speculations, where these guys can put their fertile imagination to sprout.

Could you put these 5 points in the first post of DDM thread, because a lot of recycled news as posted as nayi khabar. My sincere request to you. No more OT post.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Gerard » 15 Aug 2008 06:42

A world class long-range missile
The Army has asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to develop a new series of missiles with ranges above 70 km to fill the crucial gap in its artillery.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Arun_S » 15 Aug 2008 14:33

I crystal glazed it here
Arun_S wrote: .... ..
The biggest deluge of future weapons products will IMHO come from India producing RLG in mass qty. That one component made cheap will allow slew of smart weapons like long range gliding bomb (work is in progress), bunker bursting guided sub-munition (air/missile delivered, or ground launched Nag derivative), guided rockets (future to Pinaka), Hand launched small-airplane that work like Harpy (Death dancing overhead).


..... .. and it takes just 2 days to see it happening in this newspaper report. :twisted:

A world class long-range missile
Thursday August 14 2008 03:08 IST
Manoj K Das
KOCHI: The Army has asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to develop a new series of missiles with ranges above 70 km to fill the crucial gap in its artillery.

The Army does not possess any long-range missiles after the Agni and Prithvi missiles were brought under the control of the Strategic Command that coordinates the country’s arsenal of nuclear weapons.

Other missiles in the artillery are open missiles like Pinaka, used for neutralising a specific area of operational interest.

Tops sources told to this website's newspaper that the Army has placed its quality requirements before the Pune-based Armament Research and Development Establishment.

“They are looking for a system that can hit specific targets beyond the borders. The directive clearly states that the Army is looking for a world class missile,” ARDE sources said.

In its GSQR or General Staff Qualitative Requirements, the Army has asked the ARDE to consider systems like the Russian Smerch (50 km), Brazilian Astros (80 km), Chinese Norinco (80 km) and Israeli Accular (100 km) before the new Indian missile is configured.

“They want a straight launch barrel with a diameter between 250-350 cm. We hope to upgrade the Pinaka to suit this need,” sources said.

The ARDE is planning to increase the range of Pinaka from its 38 km to 70 km to meet the Army’s requirements. “The Pinaka can be equipped with a guidance system to give it a sharper focus. We plan to combine its fuel tanks to create more space near the warhead to install control laws and inertial navigation systems,” sources said.

Even before the Army placed the new demand, the ARDE was working on range enhancement techniques on Pinaka. Some structural changes were effected and the fin dynamics changed to give the missile a range of 50 km.

“But it still is an open missile that can be fired in quick succession to pulverise an enemy concentration. Its precision can be made more accurate by providing GPS-based navigation.

We hope to finish development of the 70-km missile earlier than the deadline given by the Army,” sources said.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Raj Malhotra » 15 Aug 2008 16:27

I hope they choose the bigger dia of 350mm and do not repeat the mistake of 214mm Pinaka which Army accused of being short ranged (they had asked for 180mm to 240mm dia missile)

Also I think, Pinaka should also be put on tracked vehicle to enable it to move deeper into battlefield

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby tsarkar » 15 Aug 2008 20:12

K Mehta – the architecture you describe would be useful in the case where the target is thermally obscured – the NAMICA seeker would have better resolution and guide via datalink during initial flight until the missile seeker takes over terminally. If so, the architecture would be among the best in class.

Mihir – with proper signal processing algorithms, Astra and Akash could have a Nag based IIR seeker

Check out http://www.raytheon.com/media/ausa07/do ... /ncade.pdf

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby NRao » 15 Aug 2008 23:54

Gerard wrote:A world class long-range missile
The Army has asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to develop a new series of missiles with ranges above 70 km to fill the crucial gap in its artillery.



Do not know what use all this is.........the lastest Condi Act states that no one occupy a Capital and overthrow the current leader (US, as in Iraq, is exempt I trust)!!!! 123 is being prepared for signature/s. We can soon expect a restriction on such artilary systems - 2 Kms.......any system build after 2007 cannot have a range greater than 2 Kms.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby ramana » 16 Aug 2008 00:18

Tinkering with existing design is a setup for not meeting customer expectation. The folks are asking for a world class system and gave examples. And the spokesman talks about arranging a tank or two. BTW, I thought Pinaka was a solid fuel rocket.Where does this tank coe from? Not too hopeful if that is the attitude right off the bat.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby jamwal » 16 Aug 2008 00:58

Arun_S wrote:I crystal glazed it here
Arun_S wrote: .... ..
The biggest deluge of future weapons products will IMHO come from India producing RLG in mass qty. That one component made cheap will allow slew of smart weapons like long range gliding bomb (work is in progress), bunker bursting guided sub-munition (air/missile delivered, or ground launched Nag derivative), guided rockets (future to Pinaka), Hand launched small-airplane that work like Harpy (Death dancing overhead).


..... .. and it takes just 2 days to see it happening in this newspaper report. :twisted:

A world class long-range missile

We hope to finish development of the 70-km missile earlier than the deadline given by the Army,” sources said.



Did you ever consider a career in future telling?? :D


That increased range before deadline..whats the secret? Smerch?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Arun_S » 16 Aug 2008 12:56

jamwal wrote:
Arun_S wrote:I crystal glazed it here
Arun_S wrote: .... ..
The biggest deluge of future weapons products will IMHO come from India producing RLG in mass qty. That one component made cheap will allow slew of smart weapons like long range gliding bomb (work is in progress), bunker bursting guided sub-munition (air/missile delivered, or ground launched Nag derivative), guided rockets (future to Pinaka), Hand launched small-airplane that work like Harpy (Death dancing overhead).


..... .. and it takes just 2 days to see it happening in this newspaper report. :twisted:

A world class long-range missile

We hope to finish development of the 70-km missile earlier than the deadline given by the Army,” sources said.



Did you ever consider a career in future telling?? :D

I can tell some on how 1998 tested DAE's thermo Nukes will work in war !! ;) Who is going to pay me a fortune for that?

That increased range before deadline..whats the secret? Smerch?

Smerch is a pure rocket as of now, thus for accuracy it can't be useing body lift, thus it has to use "Zero" degree angle of attack thus follows a ballistic trajectory. Once it has an Inertial Measurement Unit (IMU), it can do full 3 axis control, and can use a slight angle of attack, to use available body lift. That itself will increase the range significantly. And this is when there is no explicit mid-body wing/fin. For now just a small fin in the forward or aft section for attitude and spin control will do. IMU thus is used for both flight control as well as INS.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Raj Malhotra » 16 Aug 2008 13:42

The Point of Precision
Russian guided-artillery systems make the breakthrough
by Michal Fiszer& Jerzy Gruszczynski [www.edefenseonline.com]
Jul. 1, 2003




Red Rocket's Glare

By coordinating fires from dispersed batteries in range, it was possible to time the fires so that the rounds from different guns landed more or less simultaneously. This was desirable for instilling the shock required to achieve a breakthrough at a desired point on the battlefield. Not possessing such coordination, the Soviets found a solution in the multiple-launch rocket system (MLRS), where many tubes fired in a short period of time. The famous "Katyusha" and "Stalin's Organ" 82mm through 300mm rocket systems were produced in huge numbers and could drop thousands of rounds on the point of decision at a dizzying rate. It should be noted that Germany produced a number of "Nebelwerfer" rocket systems as well, although significantly fewer than the Red Army employed. The US Army experimented with 4.5-in. rockets, but much preferred cannon artillery.

Conventional artillery and unguided MLRS batteries showered the breakthrough area, leaving many holes in the ground, but only a small portion of the tens of thousands of shells fired found any targets. This was sufficient if an enormous mass of firepower was employed, as it was during WWII, but after the war, it was understood that alternatives needed be found. During the Cold War, nuclear strikes were the solution. But the return to conventional warfare doctrine in the 1970s brought the question of conventional firepower back to the front. The answer was found in precision engagement. The result was the extremely effective 9K58 Smerch MLRS system, as well as laser-guided munitions for field guns and howitzers.

Soviet technological progress during the 1970s enabled the development of a longer-range multi-barrel rocket launcher. The 9K57 Uragan system had twice the range of the then-standard BM-21 Grad, although it still used unguided rockets that were cousins to the weapons of the Great Patriotic War. In the 1980s, the 9K58 Smerch MLRS system employed a simplified inertial-navigation system (INS) for missile stabilization that resulted in increased accuracy.




The 9K58 Smerch was developed by the Splav State Research and Production Association (Tula, Russia), which also manufactured the Uragan, Grad, and Prima rocket launchers. The system was introduced to service in 1987 and equipped front-level MLRS brigades. A brigade was organized into three MLRS battalions, each with three batteries of two MLRSs and one reload vehicle. In total, a battalion has six launchers, and a brigade had 27. In 1989 a modernized 9K58-2 system was introduced to service and gradually replaced the older ones through modernization of existing systems. All subsequent production was conducted in this version.

Equipping the frontal brigades with Smersh MLRSs gives them tremendous precision, conventional firepower that could be projected into a zone between 20 km and 70 km. The Smersh brigades are intended to reinforce the armies and even divisions fighting on the main axes of battle. They are to engage armored and mechanized units, command posts, helicopter airfields, air-defense sites, and other high-value area targets.

Presently, the Smerch system is in service with the Russian Army. It is also in service with Belarus and the Ukraine and has been exported to Kuwait (27 systems) and the United Arab Emirates (six systems). In 2002 the Indian Army carried out a series of firing trials of the modernized Smerch-M system, which features an automatic rocket-preparing and -launching system and an increased range of up to 90 km (more below).

The ultimate 9K58-2 system consisted of a 12-barrel 300mm launcher (designated 9A52-2) that could fire various types of missiles, a reload vehicle (9T234-2), and a Vivari command-and-control (C2 ) system with E-715-1.1 computers. The Vivari was developed by the Kontur research-production facility (Tomsk, Russia). It has either one or two E-715 computers to calculate ballistic and targeting data for each launcher. The command vehicle has both satellite- and radio-communications systems to link to both subordinate units and headquarters.

The 9A52-2 combat vehicle is comprised of a 12-tube launcher system mounted on an 8x8 chassis with a powerful diesel engine, providing excellent cross-country capability. A single Smerch unit is capable of firing a complete 12-round salvo within 38 seconds, engaging an area of 672,000 sq. meters. High accuracy (maximum error of 220 meters and stated circular-error probable [CEP] of 120-150 meters at maximum range) of fire is provided by INS/gyro stabilization on the active part of the flight and an in-flight quick rotation technique later in the trajectory. Fire can be controlled from the special cabin of the combat vehicle or remotely.

The 9K58-2 system can use various types of guided missiles:

* 9M55K cluster projectile with 72 fragmentation submunitions (1.81 kg), intended to engage troops and soft targets.

* 9M55F with a separable HE warhead containing 95kg of explosive for use against lightly armored vehicles, fortifications, and personnel.

* 9M55K1 with five MOTIV-3M top-attack anti-armor submunitions, each of which are which is fitted with a dual-band infrared seeker. The MOTIV-3M is the MLRS version of the SPBE-D sensor-fuzed weapon, used in aerial cluster bombs. Each bomblet measures 284x255x186mm and weighs 15 kg. It is ejected and descends by parachute. The seeker detects a target, specifically armor, guides the submunitions to its vulnerable upper surfaces, and activates the warhead. The seeker's field of view is 30 degrees. The sensor triggers the warhead about 150 meters above its target. The 173mm copper plate forms a 1kg penetrator with a velocity of 2,000 m/s, able to penetrate 70mm of armor at an angle of 30 degrees.

* 9M55S 300mm rocket projectile with a thermobaric warhead is designed to defeat unsheltered troops, as well as personnel in light field fortifications and in soft-skinned/lightly armored vehicles. The warhead weight is 243 kg with 100 kg of explosives. The diameter of the thermobaric field (with the temperature in excess of 1,000° C) is 25 meters.

* 9M55K4 300mm rocket projectile is designed for remote laying of antitank minefields. Each rocket carries 25 mines. The mine weighs 4.85 kg, the weight of explosive is 1.85 kg. Time of mine self-destruction is 16-24 hours.

Splav has also developed a new 9M528 projectile for modernized Smerch-M systems that uses a high–energy composite propellant that will enable an increased range of 90 km. In addition, two new guidance systems were developed for the 9M528. One is a "true" INS, working all the way to impact, thereby reducing the maximum error from about 220 m at a range of 90 km to about 90 meters (CEP is unknown). The other method developed corrects the missile in flight via radio while the missile is observed by a radar system. Both systems have been tested but neither has been fielded.

It has been reported that a miniature aerial vehicle containing a stabilized camera, the R-90, is being developed that could be fired from the Smerch launcher, enabling real-time battlefield surveillance data to be relayed to the Smerch commander. The aerial vehicle, which uses Glonass or GPS, has the same 70-km range as the 9M55K rocket and can transmit data for up to 30 minutes. It is also disposable.


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby uddu » 16 Aug 2008 15:15

The recent tests may be that of the 120 km rocket.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY/Pinaka.html

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby neerajb » 16 Aug 2008 22:47

* 9M55K1 with five MOTIV-3M top-attack anti-armor submunitions, each of which are which is fitted with a dual-band infrared seeker. The MOTIV-3M is the MLRS version of the SPBE-D sensor-fuzed weapon, used in aerial cluster bombs. Each bomblet measures 284x255x186mm and weighs 15 kg. It is ejected and descends by parachute. The seeker detects a target, specifically armor, guides the submunitions to its vulnerable upper surfaces, and activates the warhead. The seeker's field of view is 30 degrees. The sensor triggers the warhead about 150 meters above its target. The 173mm copper plate forms a 1kg penetrator with a velocity of 2,000 m/s, able to penetrate 70mm of armor at an angle of 30 degrees."


Very similar to it's American counterpart.

Cheers...

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby ramana » 17 Aug 2008 01:27

Is this what was used in Georgia for all those neatly punched tanks?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 18 Aug 2008 02:32

IAF to add teeth with Israeli missile system

NEW DELHI: The long-delayed IAF plans to plug gaps in its air defence capabilities are finally making some headway now, with the government giving the go-ahead for the procurement of SpyDer low-level quick-reaction missile systems from Israel.

Sources said the deal for the 18 SpyDer systems, at a cost over Rs 1,800 crore, should be "inked within a few weeks" after being approved by the Defence Acquisitions Council. The deal has been hanging fire for quite some time now, with one of the main reasons being the naming of Israeli Aerospace Industries and Rafael in the Rs 1,160 crore Barak-I deal kickbacks case by the CBI.

The government, however, was reluctant to blacklist these Israeli armament firms since it would have proven "counter-productive" with several "crucial" defence projects underway with them. Now, with the Left albatross no longer hanging around its neck, the government seems to be quietly moving ahead with procurements and projects with Israel. These include the projects to develop new-generation 'Barak' surface-to-air (SAM) missile systems.

The IAF had pushed for the SpyDer systems, which have Python-5 and Derby missiles to take on hostile aircraft, helicopters, drones and PGMs (precision-guided munitions), due to persistent delays in the indigenous Akash and Trishul SAM systems. Interestingly, DRDO earlier this year declared that the Akash air defence system, with an interception range of 25-km, was now ready. It promised to deliver an initial two Akash squadrons to IAF, at a cost of Rs 1,081 crore, within three years.

The IAF, of course, is in desperate need of advanced air defence systems to replace its ageing fleet of Russian-origin Pechora, IGLA and OSA-AK missile systems. The gigantic Rs 10,000 crore project with Israel to develop an advanced new-generation SAM system, capable of detecting and destroying hostile aircraft, missiles and spy drones at a range of 120-km, will go a long way in boosting IAF's air defence capabilities to protect "vital and strategic assets".

This project, cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security in July 2007, will provide IAF with an initial nine air defence squadrons. It's actually an extension of the ongoing DRDO-IAI project, cleared in January 2006 at a cost of Rs 2,606 crore, to develop a supersonic 70-km-range Barak-2 missile defence system for the Navy. This naval long-range SAM (LR-SAM) system basically has four components: the multi-function surveillance and threat alert radars, with a 350-km range; the weapon control system with data links; the vertical launch units; and the actual two-stage interceptor missiles.

"With most of the design work now over, this LR-SAM project should be completed by 2011. The three Kolkata-class guided-missile destroyers being built at Mazagon Docks will be the first to be equipped with them," said a source. These projects, one again, underline the emergence of Israel as India's second largest defence partner since the 1999 Kargil conflict, with New Delhi sourcing armaments worth a staggering $8 billion from Tel Aviv.


Is this a gap filler till Maitri arrives?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Raj Malhotra » 18 Aug 2008 23:19

Rather than piece meal imports of Barak-1 with no license production. I think that we should take right of license production and ToT for Spyder-derby-pythonV-radars etc till indigenous missiles come on line

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Singha » 18 Aug 2008 23:29

Maitri is the Army's project for a mobile shorad isnt it ? Spyder is for IAF airbase defence and god knows we sure need it. right now the SA3 is all we have - the IA has the tunguskas and SA6?

with 18 systems each having multiple launch vehicles and radars, one could assume 2 units
would be kept for training and 16 airbases can be defended.

I hope delivery is super quick - we needed it yesterday.

and BDL must deliver the Akash's running extra shifts if need be.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Malay » 19 Aug 2008 10:01

Wouldnt it have been better had the AF would just have waited for the Maitri to materialize, seeing as its a JV, it would be a smarter buy.

Secondly, what role does Akash fit in, in comparison with Spyder? Are they of the same class and capabilities? Does buying SpyDer's mean that Akash's orders would be less?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Nitesh » 19 Aug 2008 10:43

Singha wrote:Maitri is the Army's project for a mobile shorad isnt it ? Spyder is for IAF airbase defence and god knows we sure need it. right now the SA3 is all we have - the IA has the tunguskas and SA6?

with 18 systems each having multiple launch vehicles and radars, one could assume 2 units
would be kept for training and 16 airbases can be defended.

I hope delivery is super quick - we needed it yesterday.

and BDL must deliver the Akash's running extra shifts if need be.


Isn't maitri is more of a Trishul system? Means short range SAM and Akash as medium range?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Singha » 19 Aug 2008 10:56

Maitri is many years away from production & deployment in range of 5-10 yrs. not even
prototype testing has started.

Akash can cover upto around 40km max while Spyder is 15km. Spyder missiles are meant
for point defence, while a networked battery of Akash launchers can defend a large city.
for IAF Akash would perhaps be a second layer of defence for its bases. for Army it
would protect vital installations , cities and corps sized operating areas.

Spyder should be quite good for low level base defence. it should with proper radar
cue be able to deal with air launched missiles of the KH family and low flying GLCMs.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby JTull » 19 Aug 2008 13:36

Singha wrote:for IAF Akash would perhaps be a second layer of defence for its bases. for Army it
would protect vital installations , cities and corps sized operating areas.


I don't agree. Infact Spyder will be the last line of defense. Akash has to be a layer above it. With so many standoff weapons tech finding it's way to our neghbours, Syder is not enough. For large bases like Pune, Gwalior, Tezpur etc (where atleast 2 sqns are posted) I'd expect ABM defense layer as well.

My belief is that defending large value assets go a long way in defending the city around it. It is not enough to say that IAF is only concerned with it's airbases and outside the fence it's Army responsibility.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Singha » 19 Aug 2008 14:00

two batteries of akash is a token order. if they are serious about 2nd layer order has to be
placed _now_ for 10 more batteries given the super-long lead time for such items in India.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby JTull » 19 Aug 2008 19:11

India places $2 billion Brahmos order: report

MOSCOW (AFP) — The Indian army has placed a two billion dollar (1.36 billion euro) order for cruise missiles from the Russo-Indian company BrahMos, the Interfax news agency said Tuesday.

"The order by the Indian armed forces comes to two billion dollars," the firm's chief executive Sivanthanu Pillai was quoted as saying by the Russian Interfax news agency.

BrahMos Aerospace is a joint Russian-Indian venture established in 1998 to design, develop, produce and market a cruise missile.

The BrahMos missile has a range of 280 kilometres (175 miles).

Russia is India's main arms supplier. New Delhi was one of the key allies of the erstwhile Soviet Union.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby ashish raval » 19 Aug 2008 19:26

Great News. I am also awaiting the "hypersonic long rang cruise" from Brahmos. I hope that these missiles will give Iron Fist to our forces.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Anurag » 19 Aug 2008 20:31

Any Brahmos experts care to comment on how many units does that amount translate into?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby jamwal » 19 Aug 2008 20:56

I think its kind of silly question, but how much will Indian part of Brahmos get from this order??

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Nitesh » 19 Aug 2008 21:17

Anurag wrote:Any Brahmos experts care to comment on how many units does that amount translate into?



approx 2 million dollar a piece. so order for 1000 missiles.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby p_saggu » 19 Aug 2008 22:53

Production rate?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Katare » 19 Aug 2008 23:15

It's not an order just an estimate of Pillai which he throws around everytime he talks to the media.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Nitesh » 19 Aug 2008 23:20

p_saggu wrote:Production rate?


50 per year (getting expanded not yet reached)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Sontu » 19 Aug 2008 23:45

With expected PR of 50/yr (after expansion) it will take 20 yrs to fulfill this order alone ?

Earlier it was stated 2000 nos of Brahmos 1 were expected to be built.

Even with PR of 100 /yr will take 10yrs to complete this indian order only..the PR data is not reasonable/practical enogh :-)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby abhijitm » 20 Aug 2008 01:15

Nitesh wrote:
p_saggu wrote:Production rate?


50 per year (getting expanded not yet reached)


real rate? :wink:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby narayana » 20 Aug 2008 10:45

"The order by the Indian armed forces comes to two billion dollars," the firm's chief executive Sivanthanu Pillai was quoted as saying by the Russian Interfax news agency.


How many units will russia buy?,they are still dragging their feet to place orders,its important in a JV that both sides should contribute and induct the systems in significant numbers for their armed forces.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby narayana » 20 Aug 2008 10:53

Sontu wrote:With expected PR of 50/yr (after expansion) it will take 20 yrs to fulfill this order alone ?

Earlier it was stated 2000 nos of Brahmos 1 were expected to be built.

Even with PR of 100 /yr will take 10yrs to complete this indian order only..the PR data is not reasonable/practical enogh :-)



maybe both indian and russian production lines will be used for faster deliveries,how many missile would we need to paralyze TSP assets?i remember US used nearly 1000 tomahawk missile in Iraq war.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Mihir.D » 20 Aug 2008 14:07

The rate of production of Brahmos should be 1 missile per day or even more to have a satisfactory inventory in case of a conflict in next 3-4 years.
The point to ponder over would be how many Brahmos missiles would be required in a war with China and how many for Pak ?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Rupesh » 20 Aug 2008 18:32

Mihir.D wrote:The point to ponder over would be how many Brahmos missiles would be required in a war with China and how many for Pak ?


Brahmos has a very short range, don't think it will be useful againt china .How long will it take us to develop cruise missiles with range beyond 1000 miles. Any news about Nirbhay, i thought it was supposed to be tested by dec-08/Jan-09.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby ramana » 20 Aug 2008 19:49

Gerard wrote:A world class long-range missile
The Army has asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to develop a new series of missiles with ranges above 70 km to fill the crucial gap in its artillery.


I am sorry unless it has a guidance & control unit its rocket and not a missile. Rocket is something that follows pure ballistic trajectory. A missile goes where it is aimed and has minimally a guidance unit and an error correcting system. So what do they want? Asking for a missile when they want a rocket will cause cost and technical overuns. And vice versa will lead to disappointment.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Austin » 20 Aug 2008 21:31

Ramana I think these extended range guided rocket ( one may call it missile as well depending how one would like to define it as these days every thing has intelligence/guidance in it from anti-aircraft bullet to missile ) which has intelligent or guided warhead like anti-tank with IIR/MMW seeker or sub-ammunition or even a small UAV.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Sumeet » 20 Aug 2008 22:50

narayana wrote:
"The order by the Indian armed forces comes to two billion dollars," the firm's chief executive Sivanthanu Pillai was quoted as saying by the Russian Interfax news agency.


How many units will russia buy?,they are still dragging their feet to place orders,its important in a JV that both sides should contribute and induct the systems in significant numbers for their armed forces.


why will russia go for export version maal when it already has original version Onyx ?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Austin » 21 Aug 2008 08:06

Sumeet wrote:why will russia go for export version maal when it already has original version Onyx ?


Sumeet that was part of the JV , that both Russia and India will jointly induct the system in their defence force , the RuN will start the induction of Brahmos on their Groshkov class frigate.

The Onyx perhaps might not see the light of the day

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby srai » 21 Aug 2008 12:40

JTull wrote:
Singha wrote:for IAF Akash would perhaps be a second layer of defence for its bases. for Army it
would protect vital installations , cities and corps sized operating areas.


I don't agree. Infact Spyder will be the last line of defense. Akash has to be a layer above it. With so many standoff weapons tech finding it's way to our neghbours, Syder is not enough. For large bases like Pune, Gwalior, Tezpur etc (where atleast 2 sqns are posted) I'd expect ABM defense layer as well.

My belief is that defending large value assets go a long way in defending the city around it. It is not enough to say that IAF is only concerned with it's airbases and outside the fence it's Army responsibility.


Both 15km SR Spyder SAM and 25km MR Akash SAM systems will be used in a BADZ air-defense network providing two-layers of protection. For BADZ BMD, AAD will be used.

For ADGES air-defense network, most likely 70-150km LR Barak-8/NG will be utilized. For ADGES BMD, PAD will be used.

The 18 Spyder SAM systems will provide an immediate capability boost to IAF's SR air defences. Maitri SR SAM will fill in the numbers required when it is ready in 6+ years time frame.

As far as MR SAM systems go, IMO, they will be superseded by LR systems with 70km+ ranges as air/ground-launched PGMs have been increasing their stand-off ranges. So in the future, there will be two class of SAM systems - point defense SR with around 15-30km range and LR coverage with 100+km ranges. In other words, today's MR concept will fall more into SR range coverage of tomorrow's SAM systems.


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