Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby bhavin » 10 Feb 2009 00:31

Rahul M wrote:quoting from nitesh's post above.
.......
interesting, this is a previously unknown revelation AFAIK.
AAD was told to be carrying a RF seeker only.



Rahul - If I am not mistaken, there was photo of AAD which had some sort of small "window" in it and at that time Arun_S had mentioned the possibility of infra-red or thermal guidance etc... This is purely from memory so I could be wrong...

jm2p..

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 10 Feb 2009 00:41

bhavin wrote:
Rahul M wrote:quoting from nitesh's post above.
.......
interesting, this is a previously unknown revelation AFAIK.
AAD was told to be carrying a RF seeker only.



Rahul - If I am not mistaken, there was photo of AAD which had some sort of small "window" in it and at that time Arun_S had mentioned the possibility of infra-red or thermal guidance etc... This is purely from memory so I could be wrong...

jm2p..

PAD closeup photos of Shiv Aroor clearly showed those optical windows.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby bhavin » 10 Feb 2009 00:45

Arun_S wrote:
bhavin wrote:.....

Rahul - If I am not mistaken, there was photo of AAD which had some sort of small "window" in it and at that time Arun_S had mentioned the possibility of infra-red or thermal guidance etc... This is purely from memory so I could be wrong...

jm2p..

PAD closeup photos of Shiv Aroor clearly showed those optical windows.


Thanks Arun_S !!

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Feb 2009 01:34

rakall posted in the Aero India thread:
- Brahmos has higher range in Hi-Hi profile, therefore full range 290km can be realised in a Hi-Hi profile.. How much extra range we can get if payload is reduced to say 50-100kg instead of 500Kg -- so now it can go 300+X km


Its not so easy. There is the matter of Cg shift and what to do with the empty space. Reducing the payload makes it a new vehicle and starts the clock back to say 6:00 AM if not Zero!

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 10 Feb 2009 01:55

thanks fellows, I'll try to hunt up the AAD pics from aroor.

added later : looks like I can't find the pic. :-?
anyone ready to help a poor soul ? :)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 10 Feb 2009 02:16

I don't recall AAD, but Ajai Shukla's PAD photo is on wiki (thanks Sniperz)
ImageClick for big img

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 10 Feb 2009 02:19

thanks boss. must have missed your comments at the time.

incidentally, is that the correct position for an IR sensor ? this would be looking sideways won't it ?
what am I missing ?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gerard » 10 Feb 2009 02:49

Rahul M wrote:thanks fellows, I'll try to hunt up the AAD pics from aroor.
added later : looks like I can't find the pic. :-?
anyone ready to help a poor soul ? :)


I've got two of Shiv Aroor's AAD photos saved. Here they are

http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1110826zc5.jpg
http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1110825pf1.jpg

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 10 Feb 2009 03:07

Rahul M wrote:thanks boss. must have missed your comments at the time.

incidentally, is that the correct position for an IR sensor ? this would be looking sideways won't it ?
what am I missing ?

In cricket while trying to avoid run-out, the player runs straight to the wicket (the direction to intercept point) while keeping his eyes off-bore on the ball coming from a player in deep leg. Rarely is the intercept point head-on i.e. aligned with velocity vector.

Squint is a desired feature for this astra.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby bhavin » 10 Feb 2009 03:18

Rahul M wrote:thanks fellows, I'll try to hunt up the AAD pics from aroor.

added later : looks like I can't find the pic. :-?
anyone ready to help a poor soul ? :)


Rahul, my apologies - I was talking about PAD and not AAD; the same pic that Arun_S has posted here... Sorry for the confusion..
Last edited by bhavin on 10 Feb 2009 03:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby fanne » 10 Feb 2009 03:20

Arun,
Slightly off topic, did you get around writing about the newclear deal?
TIA
fanne

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby putnanja » 10 Feb 2009 03:30


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Feb 2009 03:36

fanne wrote:Arun,
Slightly off topic, did you get around writing about the newclear deal?
TIA
fanne



Its in the new IDR.


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 Feb 2009 08:59

rakall wrote:- Brahmos has higher range in Hi-Hi profile, therefore full range 290km can be realised in a Hi-Hi profile.. How much extra range we can get if payload is reduced to say 50-100kg instead of 500Kg -- so now it can go 300+X km


I was under the impression that Brahmos never had something called Hi Hi Profile because the range would far outclass the MTCR restrictions , the full range of 290 Km was achieved with Hi-Lo profile and a Lo-Lo trajectory would give it a range of 120 Km

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby rakall » 10 Feb 2009 10:54

Austin wrote:
rakall wrote:- Brahmos has higher range in Hi-Hi profile, therefore full range 290km can be realised in a Hi-Hi profile.. How much extra range we can get if payload is reduced to say 50-100kg instead of 500Kg -- so now it can go 300+X km


I was under the impression that Brahmos never had something called Hi Hi Profile because the range would far outclass the MTCR restrictions , the full range of 290 Km was achieved with Hi-Lo profile and a Lo-Lo trajectory would give it a range of 120 Km


Brahmos never had a Hi-Hi profile & had only Hi-Lo or Lo-Lo profile because the intended targets were ground targets (ships, command centers etc) .. so the optimised Hi-Lo profile was limited to 290km to meet MTCR guidelines..

But, if we use it in a Hi-Hi profile in time of war -- who is going to come and measure the distance? Anyway we dont even need to cross 300km.. 300km is a good stand-off range for a Sukhoi to fireoff at an AWACS (even ripple fire from 2 Sukhois with a little lag) - the AWACS will have its hands full trying to out-meaneuvere a supersonic missile.. Though we will have to take care with the seeker that it is not easily fooled by flares etc..

Even if we need to reduce payload to get more range -- the CG shift etc will not be a huge problem for Brahmos Aerospace to re-program the missile for..
- we could compensate the weight with additional fuel - if required..
- Or simply instead of extra range, we could put in more electronics or a tri-mode seeker in the space/weight created by removing some fuel.. A more robust tri-mode seeker will help the missle not get fooled easily by flares/decoys.

The idea is if we have a method to take out AWACS - we could get the airsuperiority easily..

Yesterday I saw news on TV that PLA was using MBRL's to do cloud seeding.. crazy, but innovative ! we need to think up such crazy things sometimes.. to win wars.. I guess it is not as easy as 2+2 = 4, but not something Brahmos Aerospace cannot do if there is value in it..

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ajay_ijn » 10 Feb 2009 12:08

Even if we need to reduce payload to get more range -- the CG shift etc will not be a huge problem for Brahmos Aerospace to re-program the missile for..
- we could compensate the weight with additional fuel - if required..
- Or simply instead of extra range, we could put in more electronics or a tri-mode seeker in the space/weight created by removing some fuel.. A more robust tri-mode seeker will help the missle not get fooled easily by flares/decoys.

It should also receive mid-course updates from Su-30MKIs radar since AWACS would move much faster than a Ship.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby vasu_ray » 10 Feb 2009 13:03

counter point, what if the target AWACS maneuvers continuously requiring mid course updates to Brahmos at a higher rate which opens a window for data link jamming?

or a fighter escort launches a BVR missile against it and is helped by the fact that Brahmos's trajectory is predictable towards a receding AWACS, what are the BVR's chances in a head on collision trajectory?

of course, TSP doesn't have the capability to use jammers against data links driving the Predators, China might

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 10 Feb 2009 15:12

rakall wrote:Brahmos never had a Hi-Hi profile & had only Hi-Lo or Lo-Lo profile because the intended targets were ground targets (ships, command centers etc) .. so the optimised Hi-Lo profile was limited to 290km to meet MTCR guidelines..


Not quite.

Brahmos has no hi-hi range mainly because to do a hi-hi profile, you need to get to that altitude. The internal ram-rocket booster on the Brahmos cannot allow it to reach an altitude that would allow it to be classed as a hi-hi profile when launched from the ground. From the air, however, the situation changes.

As far as attacking ground targets is concerned, that can be achieved by both profile flights.

rakall wrote:- Brahmos has higher range in Hi-Hi profile, therefore full range 290km can be realised in a Hi-Hi profile.. How much extra range we can get if payload is reduced to say 50-100kg instead of 500Kg -- so now it can go 300+X km


The Brahmos is not a ballistic missile. There is little in terms of exponential increases in range versus payload variations. In cruise phase you will encounter the same drag if you maintain the same mach number. For that you will also require the same thrust. As a best case scenario if you were to replace the removed mass of payload with additional fuel, you might only increase the range of the missile by a few dozen kilometers in exchange for halving the destructive power.

Some very rough numbers:

Code: Select all

At 10m altitude, Mach 2.8, trimmed and cruising (assuming transfer of exchanged payload capacity to fuel storage):
warhead (Kg)       Range (Km)     Increase in Range (Km)
    300                  297.69                    0
    150                  322.84                25.15
     50                  341.55                45.93



Further, such changes are not the same in terms of design changes as for solid rocket designs.

What you need to think of Brahmos is as a very fast flying aircraft.

As it stands, the ground based Brahmos would be hard pressed to exceed anything above its stated range of ~300 Km. Go higher with an air launch version launch at above 20,000 feet, and you will just about hit the range of ~500 Km.

Even with simple calculations, you can see why its just about impossible to squeeze much more juice out of the design

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 Feb 2009 15:30

vivek_ahuja wrote:

Code: Select all

At 10m altitude, Mach 2.8, trimmed and cruising (assuming transfer of exchanged payload capacity to fuel storage):
warhead (Kg)       Range (Km)     Increase in Range (Km)
    300                  297.69                    0
    150                  322.84                25.15
     50                  341.55                45.93



As it stands, the ground based Brahmos would be hard pressed to exceed anything above its stated range of ~300 Km. Go higher with an air launch version launch at above 20,000 feet, and you will just about hit the range of ~500 Km.



Ok Vivek , help me understand , are you trying to say if Brahmos is doing a sustained cruise at 10 m altitude @ M2 , it will still have a range of ~ 290 km ?

if my assumption is correct then what is the so called Lo-Lo trajectory ( which i thought was 10 m ) which achieves a range of onlee 120 km ?

So an air launched Brahmos can go as far as ~ 500 Km ?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 10 Feb 2009 21:50

Re Vivek


I thought that the speed at 10m was around Mach 2 only but anyway increase in range by 45km would be increase by around 40% in lo-lo profile

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gerard » 11 Feb 2009 03:35


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Feb 2009 21:56

I have thought about the recent Brahmos test. SCAN is a GPS reciver and el-optical upgrade. Its not a hardware problem and as Dr Pillai says its a software problem. There wasnt sufficient time steps and in the interval it overshot. Lets wait for later in the month.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Feb 2009 22:52

Arun_S wrote:
Rahul M wrote:thanks boss. must have missed your comments at the time.

incidentally, is that the correct position for an IR sensor ? this would be looking sideways won't it ?
what am I missing ?

In cricket while trying to avoid run-out, the player runs straight to the wicket (the direction to intercept point) while keeping his eyes off-bore on the ball coming from a player in deep leg. Rarely is the intercept point head-on i.e. aligned with velocity vector.

Squint is a desired feature for this astra.


This combined dual guidance is very unique for PAD , I dont know of any ABM interceptor which uses combined dual guidance ( ARH/IIR ) , augurs well for future long range , high altitude midcourse type interceptor

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ajay_ijn » 11 Feb 2009 23:17

Austin wrote:
Arun_S wrote:In cricket while trying to avoid run-out, the player runs straight to the wicket (the direction to intercept point) while keeping his eyes off-bore on the ball coming from a player in deep leg. Rarely is the intercept point head-on i.e. aligned with velocity vector.

Squint is a desired feature for this astra.


This combined dual guidance is very unique for PAD , I dont know of any ABM interceptor which uses combined dual guidance ( ARH/IIR ) , augurs well for future long range , high altitude midcourse type interceptor

Arrow-II has dual IIR,ARH. one for fighters/cruise missiles and another for ballistic missiles.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Feb 2009 23:30

Ajay yes indeed , I was not aware that Arrow has this capability , Thanks

Arrow 2

The dual mode missile seeker has a passive infrared seeker for the acquisition and tracking of tactical ballistic missiles and an active radar seeker used to home on air breathing targets at low altitudes. The infrared seeker is an indium antimonide focal plane array developed by Raytheon (formerly Amber Engineering).

The intercept altitudes are from a minimum of 10km up to a maximum of 50km.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 12 Feb 2009 04:21

Austin wrote:
Arun_S wrote:In cricket while trying to avoid run-out, the player runs straight to the wicket (the direction to intercept point) while keeping his eyes off-bore on the ball coming from a player in deep leg. Rarely is the intercept point head-on i.e. aligned with velocity vector.

Squint is a desired feature for this astra.


This combined dual guidance is very unique for PAD , I dont know of any ABM interceptor which uses combined dual guidance ( ARH/IIR ) , augurs well for future long range , high altitude midcourse type interceptor

Not sure what U mean by ARH.

IIRC, US interceptors use RF and optical seekers (perhaps multi spectral for decoy discrimination)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Amit Singh » 12 Feb 2009 08:59

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10602

What the hell? What does this mean for Akash?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 12 Feb 2009 09:05

Arun_S wrote:This combined dual guidance is very unique for PAD , I dont know of any ABM interceptor which uses combined dual guidance ( ARH/IIR ) , augurs well for future long range , high altitude midcourse type interceptor
Not sure what U mean by ARH.

IIRC, US interceptors use RF and optical seekers (perhaps multi spectral for decoy discrimination)


I mean Active Radar Homing for Terminal Interception of Target

On a second thought , I am wondering of the RF seeker of PAD is a MMW type which create a RF Image of the target and then homes on to it , it should provide better discrimination of the target against decoys ?
Last edited by Austin on 12 Feb 2009 09:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 12 Feb 2009 09:11

Amit Singh wrote:http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10602

What the hell? What does this mean for Akash?


Where does it say any thing about Akash ?

DRDO is working though with MBDA on Maitri QRM , may be reffering to it.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby andy B » 12 Feb 2009 10:16

To the Grand Ayotollah from Khyberdurra and other honourable mullahs:

I have seen a few images much like this oneImage where the multiple rvs are reentering the atmosphere.

I want to ask during the re-entry the rv would face massive friction and heat in such a case would the IIR system be able to distinguish between the core warhead and the so called heat bubble around it???

I understand that the IIR will have a clear target given that the rv is re-entering against the dark cold space background however given the velocities involved if its not able to distinguish or misjudges the exact location and in case of an explosive warhead for the abm explodes either before or after the targeted rv with distance to spare it will affect its killing capacity...???

Apologies if the question seems silly....

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Vipul » 13 Feb 2009 00:26

MBDA Looks to India for joint development of New Air Defense Missile.

MBDA is hopeful that talks with the Indian authorities will yield a contract for joint development of a new short range surface-to-air missile (SRSAM) with the DRDO procurement office, CEO Antoine Bouvier said Feb.12 at the Aero India show.

"Our discussions are making good progress to maturity," Bouvier. "We are still waiting - expecting - a final decision from the customer."

The European company is holding talks with the Indian Ministry of Defence, DRDO procurement office and MBDA's local industrial partner, Bharat Dynamics Ltd.

Bouvier welcomed remarks made the previous day by the French junior minister for defense and veteran affairs Jean-Marie Bockel pledging support for technology transfers to help companies win foreign business.

"It's very important to have the French government's blessing because there is very significant technology transfer in this program," Bouvier said.

If a deal goes ahead, MBDA would co-develop "the new missile and launcher, using technology and capabilities of the European company and DRDO," he said. BDL would be prime contractor and produce and integrate the weapon system. The choice of radar would be an Indian one, he said. The missile would have range of beyond 15 kilometers.

With development funds for new arms programs virtually non-existent in Europe, an Indian contract would mark an important source of fresh financing for MBDA and a step toward an internationalization, which reduces dependence on cash-strapped home markets.

Some of the development on the Indian missile could help feed MDBA's technology base in Europe.

MBDA is involved in the modernization of the Indian Mirage 2000 fleet, which will upgrade the fighter's capabilities to fire the infrared and electromagnetic versions of the Mica air-to-air missile. There were no plans for a ground strike capability, he said.

As part of the upgrade of the Jaguar, the light strike aircraft would be capable of firing the ASRAAM short range air to air missile.

MBDA signed an agreement in December with MDL which transfers production of the Milan anti-tank missile to India. The deal allows MDL to meet Indian demand, but there are discussions on exports of the Indian Milan, Bouvier said. MBDA has worked with MDL for 30 years under a licensed production deal.

MBDA is also supporting the three European fighters - Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale - entered for India's combat aircraft competition, he said.

The French government is pushing domestic companies to focus on foreign markets to offset flat spending, which effectively cuts funding because of higher inflation in defense costs.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby putnanja » 13 Feb 2009 02:57

BrahMos to get GPS data from Russian satellites

...
During the failed test, the missile’s GPS system could not link its onboard computers with hovering satellites. This eventually crippled its guidance system, and the mission objectives were not achieved. The missile had apparently performed the flight plan but missed the target. It was fitted with an advance seeker which was to home in on the target using GPS data obtained through the US satellites.

BrahMos will now concentrate on the eight Glonass satellites, although they have a shorter range than the US spacecraft. “The necessary software modification has been incorporated to take care of the eventuality of not many satellites (eight is a small compared to the 24 US satellites) available for position updates,” BrahMos Aerospace CEO and MD, A Sivathanu Pillai told Deccan Herald on the sidelines of the ongoing “Aero-India 2009” airshow here.
...

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 13 Feb 2009 03:12

Austin wrote:
Arun_S wrote:This combined dual guidance is very unique for PAD , I dont know of any ABM interceptor which uses combined dual guidance ( ARH/IIR ) , augurs well for future long range , high altitude midcourse type interceptor
Not sure what U mean by ARH.

IIRC, US interceptors use RF and optical seekers (perhaps multi spectral for decoy discrimination)


I mean Active Radar Homing for Terminal Interception of Target

On a second thought , I am wondering of the RF seeker of PAD is a MMW type which create a RF Image of the target and then homes on to it , it should provide better discrimination of the target against decoys ?

PAD do have a MMW seeker.And the same thing was debated a way ago when the seeker news came into public.If DRDO can come up with an MMW seeker for an ABM why not for NAG?
then they said it needs to be miniaturized and blah blah......

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 13 Feb 2009 03:35

Interesting fix to the problem. So there was a possible malafide action. One way is not announce the date and time of tests. Cant shut off the sats for long duration.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 13 Feb 2009 04:07

i might have missed the concert that was on hi profile a way back regarding the Shourya.Now a small question to the oldies here.

When AAD was ignited to let it go to see and then intercept the incoming bandit at a 15 km altitude,DRDO people pumped some compressed gas out in the air that AAD can be used as a Surface to surface under the name Rohini(terming it a spin off).the the gas being highly diffused spread all over .and as soon as people felt comfortable inhaling the decompressed gas the same DRDO ignited a new mizzile calling it as Shourya but with a slight diff in the total diameter and length as compared to AAD.

Now my question is is this Shourya-Chourya a modified AAD aka Rohini?

If this question is a redundant one in your data base....I appolise :P , but i still need an answer :D


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 13 Feb 2009 05:11

Jaldipc asked
Now my question is is this Shourya-Chourya a modified AAD aka Rohini?

No its not. Its more akin to the Sagarika/K15.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 13 Feb 2009 06:29

the AAD modified as SSM was to be named ashwin, not rohini which is the name given to satellites on SLV.

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India to fire 5,000 km range Agni missile by December 2010

Postby Hiten » 13 Feb 2009 13:43

India to fire 5,000 km range Agni missile by December 2010

India is likely to fire its Agni-V ballistic missile with a range of 5,000 km by the end of 2010,....

......scientists are now working to club the first and second stage of the missile to increase its range to 5,000 km........


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