Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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Re: India to fire 5,000 km range Agni missile by December 2010

Postby sum » 13 Feb 2009 13:55

Hiten wrote:India to fire 5,000 km range Agni missile by December 2010

India is likely to fire its Agni-V ballistic missile with a range of 5,000 km by the end of 2010,....

......scientists are now working to club the first and second stage of the missile to increase its range to 5,000 km........

I remember reading a quote earlier( from Mr. Chander??) that the Agni-V was already done and only some fine tuning required (this was 7-8 months back).

I think the delay is because the decision to fire will be left to the new govt.

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Re: India to fire 5,000 km range Agni missile by December 2010

Postby AmitR » 13 Feb 2009 14:59

sum wrote:

I remember reading a quote earlier( from Mr. Chander??) that the Agni-V was already done and only some fine tuning required (this was 7-8 months back).

I think the delay is because the decision to fire will be left to the new govt.


:( Maybe we are waiting for the Amrikis to give us the go ahead just as we waited for the Agni 3. Why can't the current UPA govt. give the go ahead to test this? :shock:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Dileep » 13 Feb 2009 15:11

ramana wrote:Interesting fix to the problem. So there was a possible malafide action. One way is not announce the date and time of tests. Cant shut off the sats for long duration.

What good is that Ramana? We make those not for test and demo. We need to use them in war, and I don't want to take anyones goodwill when I go to war. Nothing short of our own sats will do.

GPS can be jammed. How difficult it is to rig up a high power transmitter (modify a cell base station maybe) and point it in the general direction from the brahman comes?

I AM NOT HAPPY!!!! :evil:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 13 Feb 2009 21:23

Rahul M wrote:the AAD modified as SSM was to be named ashwin, not rohini which is the name given to satellites on SLV.


My bad... as all the names ends with ni and looking zmabolazamba got a little confused.

Anyways.... i had put this question in newbie thread a way back......may be i need to source the sawal back to mizzile thread to get the required jawaab.

1) Can the ramjet of Akash be redesigned and enlarged to fit into brahmos or else if not brahmos, can we use to a diff desi cruize mizzile which could be of low cost and long rangeeeeee and can be mass produced?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 13 Feb 2009 21:49

Dileep, All over the world test dates and times are classified to prevent outsiders from meddling and observing. Only in India even in remote areas there is fanfare and mela atmosphere to tip off everyone.

Anyway lesson learned is not to rely on one source of signals. And its being implemented. Lets wait for next week.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 13 Feb 2009 21:56

ramana wrote:Dileep, All over the world test dates and times are classified to prevent outsiders from meddling and observing. Only in India even in remote areas there is fanfare and mela atmosphere to tip off everyone.

Anyway lesson learned is not to rely on one source of signals. And its being implemented. Lets wait for next week.

And isnt it the other reason that all our testing ranges being known to public?

we barely have a couple of testing ranges.
one at chandipur and other at phokran while a new one is developing at suryalanka and other in b`lore.

Any one can keep a high vigil on these ranges and can seek the needed info wot we doing and wot ranges are we testing our mizziles.

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Re: India to fire 5,000 km range Agni missile by December 2010

Postby Arun_S » 13 Feb 2009 22:35

AmitR wrote:
sum wrote:India to fire 5,000 km range Agni missile by December 2010

I remember reading a quote earlier( from Mr. Chander??) that the Agni-V was already done and only some fine tuning required (this was 7-8 months back).

I think the delay is because the decision to fire will be left to the new govt.


:( Maybe we are waiting for the Amrikis to give us the go ahead just as we waited for the Agni 3. Why can't the current UPA govt. give the go ahead to test this? :shock:

MM Singh and his Govt needs its own cojones not Amrikans cojones to do their job (BTW Amrikans love lending their Cojones to further growth of their progney :rotfl: ) .

IOW when GOI is Mir Jaffar & sells national interests to massaland when do you expect the test launch ? and of course forget about ever having it operational except in museum. :twisted:

Raj Maata ki jai.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Dileep » 14 Feb 2009 09:06

Ramana, nothing is a secret for who want and need to know. WE chair marshals may not know, but that doesn't count.

I say ANY interference is good, because we get to know that can be done.

I say, it was in fact a test of the jammability of the GPS system in brahman, and THAT test was a success. That was the original report. Then some DDM found out that the target is still standing, and there is a crater a km away. So a story was needed to cover that. :evil:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby chetak » 14 Feb 2009 22:16

jaladipc wrote:
ramana wrote:Dileep, All over the world test dates and times are classified to prevent outsiders from meddling and observing. Only in India even in remote areas there is fanfare and mela atmosphere to tip off everyone.

Anyway lesson learned is not to rely on one source of signals. And its being implemented. Lets wait for next week.

And isnt it the other reason that all our testing ranges being known to public?

we barely have a couple of testing ranges.
one at chandipur and other at phokran while a new one is developing at suryalanka and other in b`lore.

Any one can keep a high vigil on these ranges and can seek the needed info wot we doing and wot ranges are we testing our mizziles.



jaladipc ji,

China has considerable SIGINT assets on the burmese coast as well as assets on coco island.

These monitor the chandipur test range as well as the entire east coast and that is the very reason that they are there.

If you are going to launch a test missile, conduct other weapon trials etc etc, a notam has to be issued mandatorily.

Chandipur is close to extremely busy international air routes, many of these aircraft don't even touch India but overfly.

Notams are specially covered in all pilot briefings.

Even if you test distress frequencies for any reason, a notam has to be issued in advance. Otherwise you will get your butt in an international sling. :)

Quote

from wiki

NOTAM or NoTAM is the quasi-acronym for a "Notice To Airmen". NOTAMs are created and transmitted by government agencies under guidelines specified by Annex 15: Aeronautical Information Services of the Convention on International Civil Aviation. A NOTAM is filed with an aviation authority to alert aircraft pilots of any hazards en route or at a specific location. The authority in turn provides means of disseminating relevant NOTAMs to pilots.

NOTAMs are issued (and reported) for a number of reasons, such as:

* hazards such as air-shows, parachute jumps, kite flying, rocket launches, etc.
* flights by important people such as heads of state (sometimes referred to as Temporary Flight Restrictions, TFRs)

Unquote.

Missile launches are also intimated to neighboring countries as a matter agreements and courtesy as well as to prevent "accidents" by someone imagining that you have launched a missile against them and mistakenly retaliating in kind.

Fishermen are also cleared from the area, ships are cautioned and they stay clear of the notified areas for the specified amount of time.

Anyone can pick up telemetered data ( often encrypted ) right off the airwaves like the chinese do and also like a great many interested submarines and specially positioned satellites doubtless do, every time there is a launch.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Vick » 15 Feb 2009 00:07

Note that DRDO-MBDA Maitri missile will be a surface launched Astra

Image

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 15 Feb 2009 00:37

Whatever but dont whine when the test gets interrupted. Only the gullible issue NOTAMs etc when testing at Pokhran. yes do bring in Chandipur and clud the discussion. Good show.

Arun_S, A krish posted this:

Image

AVATAR-RLV Launcher

Whats your take?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby p_saggu » 15 Feb 2009 00:46

The RLV-TD Launcher. Picture rotated.

Image

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 15 Feb 2009 02:21

ramana wrote:Whatever but dont whine when the test gets interrupted. Only the gullible issue NOTAMs etc when testing at Pokhran. yes do bring in Chandipur and clud the discussion. Good show.

Arun_S, A krish posted this:
Image

AVATAR-RLV Launcher

Whats your take?

Yes, this will be the first flight test of scramjet engine, a technology proving precursor craft to Avatar.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 15 Feb 2009 03:07

Vick wrote:Note that DRDO-MBDA Maitri missile will be a surface launched Astra

Image


Makes sense, but is this your info or interpretation of the pic?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby rsingh » 15 Feb 2009 03:30

Going through GPS and other satellite aided navigational system for my yatchman course. Prof was very much excited by Chinese system "baidu" which will have most accurate atomic watch synchronization ( means accuracy on target) and upload -download facility (first in world). Ruskie system is most outdated and incorrect..........ie atomic watch accuracy fit only for Burikina-faso.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Guddu » 15 Feb 2009 03:36

RaviBg wrote:BrahMos to get GPS data from Russian satellites

...
During the failed test, the missile’s GPS system could not link its onboard computers with hovering satellites. This eventually crippled its guidance system, and the mission objectives were not achieved. The missile had apparently performed the flight plan but missed the target. It was fitted with an advance seeker which was to home in on the target using GPS data obtained through the US satellites.

BrahMos will now concentrate on the eight Glonass satellites, although they have a shorter range than the US spacecraft. “The necessary software modification has been incorporated to take care of the eventuality of not many satellites (eight is a small compared to the 24 US satellites) available for position updates,” BrahMos Aerospace CEO and MD, A Sivathanu Pillai told Deccan Herald on the sidelines of the ongoing “Aero-India 2009” airshow here.
...


Pl. see this snippet of various GPS systems from Strat...the US system is the best, so now the accuracy of Brahmos is degraded.

"The Major Players
GPS
This is because the U.S. Global Positioning System (GPS) is the world’s only fully-deployed and operational (and thus premier) satellite navigation system. It is being upgraded again, with the first next-generation GPS III satellites scheduled to be launched by 2013. GPS has been up and running the longest. Its first satellites were in orbit by the late 1970s, with full operational capability achieved in 1995 with 24 satellites transmitting navigational data. Today, around 30 satellites are generally operational as part of the constellation.

The newest GPS III will have much greater transmission power (reportedly on the order of 500 times that of the current system), which will make for a more robust signal much more resistant to jamming. Jamming is a very real concern for U.S. planners, as adversaries look for asymmetric means to challenge U.S. technological dominance on the battlefield. While the transmission of signals to and from space-based assets is a perennial weak spot for any space-faring nation, GPS III currently seems poised to stay ahead of that challenge — and will certainly be better prepared than any other alternative system to resist and overpower jamming.

GLONASS
Ivanov may have legitimate complaints about mishandling of GLONASS. But according to the Information-Analytical Center of Roscosmos, the Russian constellation currently has some 17 operational satellites (with an 18th in the process of being commissioned), all launched after the turn of the century. This is indeed nothing to scoff at, even if Roscosmos’ own internal definition of “operational” may be overly generous.

Ivanov’s complaint was more pointed at the integration of efforts in not only getting new satellites into orbit, but modernizing ground control centers and outfitting the Russian military and the civilian market with hand-held GLONASS navigational receivers.

But even with sufficient satellites in orbit and civilian receivers on the market, GLONASS will remain hindered by years of neglect. While its satellites are new, during the time GLONASS was experiencing years of neglect, the GPS was thriving as a military and civilian tool — years and utility that the U.S. military has learned a great deal from and integrated into its next generation systems. GLONASS also has comparatively little experience with handheld military — and especially civilian — navigational receivers. This has inflicted a very real handicap on the Russian system, even as it renews itself with new satellites.

Compass
China’s first satellite of the Compass system went up in 2000. There are currently five in orbit, with plans for 10 additional satellites to be added over the next two years and a total of 30 before 2015. At the moment, the five satellites provide limited regional navigational services to the mainland.

Of all GPS’ three competitors, the Chinese have the most ground to make up before it can compete qualitatively with GPS, meaning that the system will have significantly lower accuracy and will almost certainly be more susceptible to jamming.

Galileo
Though Europe’s long-beleaguered Galileo continues to soldier on, it has largely died as a commercial endeavor because private funding on the order of US$3.3 billion never materialized for a service that would largely duplicate the already-free GPS service. Galileo has since received around US$4.5 billion in financing from the European Community budget, with collaboration between the European Commission and the European Space Agency. When all is said and done, its total estimated costs are expected to reach as high as US$12 billion.

Contracts to actually build the system are expected in the coming months.

Implications
Meanwhile, in 2004, the United States was able to outmaneuver France and keep the GPS military M-Code frequency separate from Galileo’s frequency. This has ensured that — at least hypothetically — GPS would be able to continue functioning on that frequency if Galileo’s frequency were jammed. Because GPS functions on both the M-Code and in the range of Galileo’s frequency, however, Galileo would not be able to function were GPS jammed.

In short, just as Russia is reconstituting GLONASS, China is pushing forward with Compass and Europe continues to struggle with the finer points of Galileo, GPS is poised to take another generational leap forward. And this leap is both in terms of military and civilian utility, ensuring that the world will continue to favor the U.S.-controlled system.

As the only fully functional global satellite navigation system, GPS continues to consolidate control of the civilian market. With all three alternatives at least a generation behind the curve (and possibly more), it will continue not only being free, but being the most competitive product on the market.

U.S. policy has long sought to coordinate “augmentation” of its GPS system, where other satellites can provide additional accuracy but work primarily in conjunction with the GPS system rather than separate from it. In addition to Galileo, the United States has had talks with Russia over GLONASS and discussed potential options with both Japan and India (both are beginning working on their own systems).

Given the superior capabilities of GPS, it is likely to remain a mainstay of NATO military operations even after Galileo comes online. And while the option for independent military operations free of reliance on GPS that a national satellite navigation system provides is indeed an attractive one, it comes at an enormous expense (billions of dollars), regular upkeep and will likely remain more vulnerable to interference than the more precise, robust and hardened GPS III.

But global precision-strike capability will become an increasingly important measure of military power in the years and decades to come, and satellite navigation has proven to be the most effective guidance for such capability. The continued development of satellite navigation alternatives to GPS thus will bear considerable watching from a military perspective, if not a commercial one. "

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Vick » 15 Feb 2009 09:17

Raj Malhotra wrote:Makes sense, but is this your info or interpretation of the pic?

My interpretation. The difference between the Astra and this SR-SAM (Maitri) seems to be that the 4 lateral strakes are longer on the Maitri due to greater need for control during the boost phase in the low altitudes.

Arun_S, are you sure that's the scramjet test bed? I thought this was the RLV test bed. The scramjet test bed, IIRC, has the clamshells that open up to expose the test subject.

Regarding the GPS thing: I assume that the Brahmos would use only the civie GPS signal as the mil grade sig is not accessible by non US/NATO entities. If during the Brahmos test, the civie GPS was tampered with, then everyone from airlines to ocean liners in the region would have reported degraded GPS capabity. AFAIK, no one has claimed any such anomaly. Unless of course the US can shut down the GPS sig in a very localized manner, which I don't think is physically possible...
Last edited by Vick on 15 Feb 2009 09:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 15 Feb 2009 09:29

If India is really using the USA controlled GPS system, then its the height of dumbness... Cause then in any future Indo pak war such a weapon is useless as the USA controlled GPS will be shut off when we need it. I don't think DRDO is that dumb

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby krishnan » 15 Feb 2009 09:41

How long can they shut that down? Especially with their own army deployed in iraq/afganisthan

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby chetak » 15 Feb 2009 10:50

Aditya_V wrote:If India is really using the USA controlled GPS system, then its the height of dumbness... Cause then in any future Indo pak war such a weapon is useless as the USA controlled GPS will be shut off when we need it. I don't think DRDO is that dumb





Aditya_V ji,

What is actually available to us and a whole lot of other countries is only the designedly degraded GPS signal that is used commercially. :)

The military GPS signal is available after decrypting and thus available only to the US and some of its select allies.

The difference between the military and civilian GPS signals is the accuracy to which one can plot ones position. Only the military GPS receivers can decrypt the "jitter" that is specifically introduced into the freely available American GPS signals to purposely degrade the quality of the received signal, hence its accuracy.

You now have GPS receivers that can simultaneously accept signals from either the American GPS or Russian GLONASS and choose the better signal in terms of signal quality and accuracy.

Some of the IN ships and submarines have already moved on to these receivers. :D

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby chetak » 15 Feb 2009 11:16

krishnan wrote:How long can they shut that down? Especially with their own army deployed in iraq/afganisthan



krishnan ji,

The Americans are notorious for tampering with GPS signals and also switching it off selectively as they desire. :)
The system is their own personal property and they are not bound to keep it on since they do not normally charge for its usage.
This constant tampering with the GPS signals is the main reason that europe, chinese, russians et al are seeking to establish their own independent gps systems so that they can be assured at all times of having access to accurate navigational signals.

The americans have the devious capability to selectively switch off ( in a geographically selected way) the GPS signals so as to render at grave risk some accurate missile launches including cruise missiles, some guided munitions and combat operations etc

Such a shifty capability and malafide intent was demonstrated in the Kashmir area when the Americans switched off for some time, the GPS signals during the Kargil incident.

The possible non availability of GPS signals during operations has been factored into the Indian military planning since. :D

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby rakall » 15 Feb 2009 15:35

Updates on Brahmos:

1. All naval versions of Brahmos - Ship to ship, Ship to land, Coastal land battery to Ship and the Army versions - mk1, mk2 -- all of them have the same RF seeker.. There is no difference in the seeker

Whatever differences are there only in the software - algorithm for target detection.

2. The INS is accelerometer based with updates from GPS/Glonass.. But the recent test failure had nothing to do with GPS signal failure.. such premise is "false and foolish" - the GPS correction required at 55km range is very very insignificant.. INS is very accurate at those ranges..

The failure was due to a software error which was immediatly identified.

3. The previous tests of Army had to identify a RCS target in a bunch of non-RCS targets and destroy it.. The recent test was about eliminating a RCS target when it is surrounded by targets of similar RCS -- all of them having insignificant RCS or all of them having a similar RCS levels such that difference in RCS signature is not very large..

4. An RLG based INS is almost ready for future versions.. indigenous RLG programme has matured enough to adopt it with confidence now..

5. When either the IRNSS or GAGAN becomes operational - can get signals from that also.

6. Brahmos still waiting for IN to give them a sub to test the Sub-launched version.. The airforce version work will start when Sukhoi DB is ready to start work.. The structural work will involve strngthening the underbelly area with an additional stinger to take the load..

The pylon - which is not actually a pylon, but an ejector with all the electronics & s/w.. design is ready..

7. The max range of Brahmos is limited by the software.. if the missile travels 290km and does not find the target there - the software will liquidate the missile (even if the target is just 10-15km away).. this has been done to ensure adherence to MTCR guidelines..

But - the day GoI decides to give a one-finger salute to MTCR, range can easily be increased to 'much more'. There is internal volume capability for more fuel, so once MTCR is shown middle-finger - range is not a problem

Obviously there is absolutely no point if you put a 300km range limit on a hypersonic missile - so Brahmos2 will definitely not be 300km range.. Have your own guess to what it will be

8. When ripple fired - the initial startup (after acquiring targets from UAV or Satellite or AWACS or whatever ) will take 3.5mins.. the first missile will go after 3.5mins after targets are acquired and the other two will follow within a space of 2.5secs each -- both for salvo mode or ripple fire mode.

9. The Naval ship to land version has been tested to 250km range in Andamans.. (As seen from the video) The target was pretty makeshift - a triangular metal plate hoisted on two oil drums.. the missile got the centroid of the triangle..

10. Rajput has Brahmos in inclned mode.. All other warships (I mean destroyers & frigates) will get VLS... But IN is planning to put Brahmos in inclined mode on a few missile boats which can manuevre faster..

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 15 Feb 2009 16:31

rakall wrote:Updates on Brahmos:

1. All naval versions of Brahmos - Ship to ship, Ship to land, Coastal land battery to Ship and the Army versions - mk1, mk2 -- all of them have the same RF seeker.. There is no difference in the seeker

Whatever differences are there only in the software - algorithm for target detection.


So there is no MMW Seeker or SCAN Imaging Seeker which was tested recently ? Did you ask of any new dual mode ( RF/MMW & IR/EO ) under development ?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby rakall » 15 Feb 2009 17:05

Austin wrote:
rakall wrote:Updates on Brahmos:

1. All naval versions of Brahmos - Ship to ship, Ship to land, Coastal land battery to Ship and the Army versions - mk1, mk2 -- all of them have the same RF seeker.. There is no difference in the seeker

Whatever differences are there only in the software - algorithm for target detection.


So there is no MMW Seeker or SCAN Imaging Seeker which was tested recently ? Did you ask of any new dual mode ( RF/MMW & IR/EO ) under development ?


There is no mmw or SAR or any other type of seeker..

SCAN is just an algorithm..

I did not specifically ask if there was a dual seeker bcoz the question was kind of pre-empted.. When I asked "whether there is a new seeker or SAR" - Brahmos guys tried their best to explain that it was not a simple patch work to just change the seeker simply like that because of the realestate problem in the small radome.. So from that, if I have to guess -- there is no dual seeker or planned in immediate future.

But, apparently an "improved RF seeker" is under development as part of JV.. so there is slender hope that we might get seeker technology, but depends on how well we manage the pesky ruskies.

Cost:

As an addition to my previous post on Brahmos - I have enquired about the cost part.. "Which cost in the world has not increased in the world? How high had inflation gone? Everything prices wentup - petrol, metals etc".. So how can you expect cost to be flat -- was the answer. So the cost has gone up a little, but not 3times or etc as reported in some press..

The 3 persons I talked to at Brahmos were the same set of people I talked to AI07 which was a good coincidence (Same with GTRE, BDL, ADE where I found the same persons). I spent some quality time... I also asked about the 'crzy idea' of using Brahmos as an AWACS killer.. Apparently such crazy ideas did comeup in some of their internal brainstorming sessions.. but, ofcourse, I got an answer to why it would not work in that role..

Also the Brahmos guys were impressed with the BR-level questions/interactions.. so I got a very special Brahmos gift hamper with a supercool Parker pen and all (generally what they have reserved for VVIP's like RM or MPs visiting Brahmos stall).

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby aditp » 15 Feb 2009 17:15

rakall wrote:Updates on Brahmos:

10. Rajput has Brahmos in inclned mode.. All other warships (I mean destroyers & frigates) will get VLS... But IN is planning to put Brahmos in inclined mode on a few missile boats which can manuevre faster..



For another hit & run against Karachi / Gwadar? Otherwise missile bots are not exactly in fashion these days... :wink:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby aditp » 15 Feb 2009 17:18

rakall wrote:Updates on Brahmos:

1. All naval versions of Brahmos - Ship to ship, Ship to land, Coastal land battery to Ship and the Army versions - mk1, mk2 -- all of them have the same RF seeker.. There is no difference in the seeker

Whatever differences are there only in the software - algorithm for target detection.



If all difference is in software, why have different versions of the naval missile. Why not have a single variant with enhanced memory to store all algorithms, which ofcourse would be user selectable to suit the mission? :idea:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Dileep » 15 Feb 2009 17:35

rakall, you da man!! You rock!!

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ajay_ijn » 15 Feb 2009 17:50

rakall wrote:There is no mmw or SAR or any other type of seeker..

SCAN is just an algorithm..

I did not specifically ask if there was a dual seeker bcoz the question was kind of pre-empted.. When I asked "whether there is a new seeker or SAR" - Brahmos guys tried their best to explain that it was not a simple patch work to just change the seeker simply like that because of the realestate problem in the small radome.. So from that, if I have to guess -- there is no dual seeker or planned in immediate future.

But, apparently an "improved RF seeker" is under development as part of JV.. so there is slender hope that we might get seeker technology, but depends on how well we manage the pesky ruskies.

Cost:

As an addition to my previous post on Brahmos - I have enquired about the cost part.. "Which cost in the world has not increased in the world? How high had inflation gone? Everything prices wentup - petrol, metals etc".. So how can you expect cost to be flat -- was the answer. So the cost has gone up a little, but not 3times or etc as reported in some press..

The 3 persons I talked to at Brahmos were the same set of people I talked to AI07 which was a good coincidence (Same with GTRE, BDL, ADE where I found the same persons). I spent some quality time... I also asked about the 'crzy idea' of using Brahmos as an AWACS killer.. Apparently such crazy ideas did comeup in some of their internal brainstorming sessions.. but, ofcourse, I got an answer to why it would not work in that role..

Also the Brahmos guys were impressed with the BR-level questions/interactions.. so I got a very special Brahmos gift hamper with a supercool Parker pen and all (generally what they have reserved for VVIP's like RM or MPs visiting Brahmos stall).

thanks rakall, So if there is no SAR or IIR or MMW, how can RF Seeker meant for detecting ships can do the job with ground targets? there will be so much clutter?
also i cannot understand how will UAVs or other Spy planes acquire the target information. if they just take the image, then can Brahmos compare the image using its RF Seeker.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gerard » 15 Feb 2009 18:10


Austin
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 15 Feb 2009 21:30

Rakall , Thanks for all that gem of information you have posted in different thread , You simply rock , Awesome :)

Question to gurus , if there is no seeker change between AshM and LACM variant of Brahmos , and the difference is only in Improved Algo/SW and GPS.

How can a plain jane seeker of Brahmos AshM which can at best discriminate large radio contrast target ( much like Exocet blk 3 or Klub would do ) can with algo improvement can hit a small insignificant target amongst a cluster of such targets , much more something which is meters below ground ?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 16 Feb 2009 00:08

Vick wrote:Arun_S, are you sure that's the scramjet test bed? I thought this was the RLV test bed. The scramjet test bed, IIRC, has the clamshells that open up to expose the test subject.

Ooops my bad. I guess haste makes waste. Thanks for juggling my memeory. Very ture this is RLV test bed for flight control and materials verification. Scramjet will also be launched on S10 booster but as you rightly point out it will have camshell fairing to protect the scramjet vehicle during boost phase.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 16 Feb 2009 00:14

krishnan wrote:How long can they shut that down? Especially with their own army deployed in iraq/afganisthan

IIRC GPS sats do not use dish based high gain antenna, but instead use an array of circularly polarized helix antennas.
Thus using the phase array antenna they do have ability to create a radiation null at a designated geographic location while keeping Afghanistan Johnnies under GPS umbrella.

IOW the GPS umbrella can be made to leak where they want to using some arcane antenna technology. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Vipul » 16 Feb 2009 00:59

ICBM test to launch India into Big Five.

With the design work on the 5,000-km-range Agni-V virtually over now, DRDO chief M Natarajan on Friday said the missile would certainly be tested before December 2010. "I am very confident we will be able to do it,'' he said, speaking on the sidelines of the Aero India-2009 show here.

The work on the nuclear-capable Agni-V basically revolves around incorporating a third composite stage in the two-stage Agni-III, along with some advanced technologies like ring laser gyroscope and accelerator for navigation and guidance.

Agni-III, with a strike range of 3,500-km to accord the capability to strike targets deep inside China, on its part, has been successfully tested only two times till now.

Defence scientists want the solid-fuelled Agni-V, for which the government has sanctioned around Rs 2,500 crore, to be a canister-launch missile system to ensure it has the requisite operational flexibility to be fired from any part of the country.

Agni-V will be slightly short of true ICBMs, which have ranges in excess of 5,500 km. "We have the capability to go in for much higher range but it is for the government to give a go-ahead. At present, we have a green signal for only Agni-V,'' said a scientist.

As reported recently by TOI, while China is several leagues ahead, India continues to lag behind even Pakistan in the missile race. At present, only the 150-to-350 km short range Prithvi missile can be said to be "fully operational'' in the armed forces. The 700-km Agni-I and 2,000-km Agni-II are still in the process of being inducted into the forces.

India, of course, hopes to gate-crash into the very exclusive club of countries like US, Russia and China, which have both ICBM as well as SLBM (submarine-launched ballistic missile) capabilities, by 2010-2011.

DRDO is working on the K-15 SLBM, having tested it from submersible pontoon launchers till now, with the aim to integrate it on the indigenous nuclear submarines being built under the secretive ATV (advanced technology vessel) project.

Though not in the range of the over 5,000-km SLBMs in the arsenal of US, Russia and China, the 750-km range K-15 will accord India with the desperately-needed third leg of the "nuclear weapon triad''. India currently depends on the Agni missiles as well as fighters like Mirage-2000s as its platforms to deliver nuclear weapons.

DRDO, of course, is also going to shortly conduct the third test of the fledgling two-tier BMD (ballistic missile defence) system, capable of tracking and destroying incoming hostile missiles both inside (endo) and outside (exo) the earth's atmosphere.

The BMD system was tested for the first time in November 2006 when an "exo-atmospheric'' hypersonic interceptor missile was used to destroy an "enemy'' Prithvi missile at an altitude of 40-50 km.

The second time, in December 2007, an "endo-atmospheric interceptor'' took on an enemy missile at an altitude of 15-km. "After the third test in a month or so, we will test the endo and exo together in an integrated mode later this year,'' said a scientist.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 16 Feb 2009 01:06

Arun_S wrote:
krishnan wrote:How long can they shut that down? Especially with their own army deployed in iraq/afganisthan

IIRC GPS sats do not use dish based high gain antenna, but instead use an array of circularly polarized helix antennas.
Thus using the phase array antenna they do have ability to create a radiation null at a designated geographic location while keeping Afghanistan Johnnies under GPS umbrella.

IOW the GPS umbrella can be made to leak where they want to using some arcane antenna technology. :twisted:


That's correct. They have the capability to jam L1 (Civilian GPS) at a time and place of their choosing. Having said that, as far as I know, they use a second antenna, that sends out a jamming signal focussed on the area where they want to deny the L1 signal. That way, users in other areas dont miss anything at all, while they are able to deny it to folks who want to get a free ride. I am not an RF guy, so take it FWIW.

India should invest in maintaining either a constellation of 4-5 geostationary satellites with simple ranging signals that can be used by fast moving objects like guided bombs/cruise missile or a constellation of 7-8 satellites in highly elleptical orbits to maximize time over India and neighbors (like the Japanese system). Even a simple system with just ranging signals, when integrated with a half decent INS in a Kalman Filter would result in JDAM like accuracy.

Such a quasi GPS system would also be a lot cheaper to maintain (one satellite launch every 2-3 years = approx 200 million $ per year).

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby babbupandey » 16 Feb 2009 09:06

Arun ji,

I am waiting for you to post the articles on Shaurya missile, which you had promised to put up after 15th Feb.
Thanks!

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Re: India to fire 5,000 km range Agni missile by December 2010

Postby AdityaM » 16 Feb 2009 09:15

Arun_S wrote:IOW when GOI is Mir Jaffar & sells national interests to massaland when do you expect the test launch ? and of course forget about ever having it operational except in museum. :twisted:
Raj Maata ki jai.


DRDO needs to get its act in order. Whats with these weirdly named missiles which do not see the light of the day?.
If they really wanted to expedite the missile program, all they had to do was rename the projects to
RajivG IRBM , IGandhi ICBM , RahulBumb

All departments of the UPA would then have scrambled to get the missiles in the air! :twisted:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 16 Feb 2009 09:20

babbupandey wrote:Arun ji,

I am waiting for you to post the articles on Shaurya missile, which you had promised to put up after 15th Feb.
Thanks!

babbupandey ji,
I was planning to do the necessary things today, but other things distracted me, and I will be very busy till tomorrow. So pls bear with me. or drop me a line ( Arun.s1971 AT gmail DOTcom ) and I can send you a pdf copy.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby andy B » 16 Feb 2009 10:27

^^^ arun saar email sent please check when you can, cheers.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby rakall » 16 Feb 2009 11:07

More missile updates:

1. NAG - the missile costs 70lakhs out of which (imported) IIR seeker costs 35-40lakhs.. Konkur-M with the same range costs 10Lakhs..

2. Indigenous IIR seeker not matured enough.. lot of work remaining..

3. Army does not want a mmw seeker NAG.. the NAG built with mmw seeker is generally larger/heavier than the IIR seeker proto.. that is what happened with the proto built with an imported mmw seeker.

4. IA so far placed LoI 500 Nags. Dont know if they will order more. As in point #1 - cost is issue.

5. Army has on order from BDL for 15000 Knokur-M's and 4100 Milans.. there are also 2 export enquiries for Milan's.. File pending with MoD for clearence to service export enquiries

ALWT
6. ALWT development complete.. 8mins operation @ 35-49knots.. 0.5km underwster..

7. HWT just not ready.. NAvy more inclined towards a german or italian designs on offer

8. 25 LSP order for ALWT.. 1-2 export enquiries which is very good.

Akash

9. The 2squadron order of Akash translates to 108missiles to be manufactured by BDL

Actually IAf has reuirement for 12sqds.. so a follow-on order for 4sqds is expected.. rest of the order is "hoped for".
Hope that IA will also place orders for Akash..

( Snippet -- IAF does not want to take PAC-2/3 bcoz they are not technically ready for that level of tech.. though this could be an individual view.. I heard, I am posting for whatever salt it is worth)

10. BDL is still manufacturing and delivering Prithvi's of 350km range.

11. The person I spoke to says Shourya & Sagarika are "close cousins".. Sagarika has 700km range..

(BTW - are any pics of Sagarika available? He says they are.. and if you compare you will see).

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby AmitR » 16 Feb 2009 11:47

rakall wrote:More missile updates:

1. NAG - the missile costs 70lakhs out of which (imported) IIR seeker costs 35-40lakhs.. Konkur-M with the same range costs 10Lakhs..



Once again superb piece of information. Thanks a lot. The only worrying factor is the price difference between Konkur-M and Nag, 7 times is just too much. I am sure whoever is the supplier is taking India for a ride.


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