Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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babbupandey
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby babbupandey » 07 Mar 2009 11:27

John wrote:
Katare wrote:I think it was expected that they would move away from liquid fueled Prithvi's to newer more modern short range solid fuel missiles like Agni 1 and Shaurya besides more cruise missiles like Brahmos and Nirbhay. :twisted:

My question is why bother with Brahmos or Nirbhay for land based system when Shaurya can fill in that role.


Don't use a canon to kill a mosquito. Cruise missiles are cheaper to operate than Shaurya, which is meant for longer range depressed/ballistic trajectory. For example, US used around 1,000 Tomahawks in operation Enduring Freedom - ballistic missiles will so very expensive to operate in such number.
Besides, using ballistic missile could trigger false nuclear alarm and invite catastrophe. Nuclear weapons are those expensive showpieces which should never be taken out of display 8)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 07 Mar 2009 12:06

Bharat wrote:Arun_S: Could you please explain a bit more.. ?

Just like a horse stops eating hay when the rain make green grass abundent in pasture land.

Also.. have we met in Sunnyvale once for lunch about 5 December's back ?

Is it a new yankee town near Khost? I onlee visit areas near my abode in Khyber Durra :wink:

H.B.Krishna
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby H.B.Krishna » 07 Mar 2009 20:56

Now IMO (which might not matter much) cruise missiles can be intercepted as even in the supersonic range, they are at Mach 2-3... Unlike a ballistic missile which gets into Mach 12-14 which makes radar tracking and interception a whole new game..

That's true Bharatji , but yet...detecting a CM is by itself a great deal ! Once detected, it may be easier to take it out, but one more factor will still pop its head...CM is a lot more cheaper than BMs so its more likely to be fired in barrage mode than BMs. Imagine a Pinaka of 1000 KM range 8)

Added latter: Grass and Hay...
So indeed the green grass is growing at pretty good rate (Around 100 per year)??

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby John » 08 Mar 2009 01:51

babbupandey wrote:Don't use a canon to kill a mosquito. Cruise missiles are cheaper to operate than Shaurya, which is meant for longer range depressed/ballistic trajectory. For example, US used around 1,000 Tomahawks in operation Enduring Freedom - ballistic missiles will so very expensive to operate in such number.


For tactical purpose Cruise missiles are better suited in air or naval based platform rather than land due to their versatility.

Question: Can the Brahmos do a U-TURN at high speed and strike at the enemy's back? At Kargil, the IAF said if we could move across the line of control we will have greater impact.. Basically fly over TSP territory and then fly back into the line of control to hit bunker formations.. Sounds to be an expensive drop for a bunker, but would be a life saver in Tiger Hill kind of assault.

TACTOM can, they can be programmed to attack a different target/flight path thru waypoints via mid course guidance not sure on Brahmos.

While Pakistan does not have anything to shoot down Brahmos, China does. Brahmos' high - low flight profile was designed for naval engagements not for land attack would make it quite vulnerable while flying over S-300 platforms. Shaurya in the other hand :wink:.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Kartik » 08 Mar 2009 04:48

From Flight International

India's Defence Research and Development Organisation has conducted the first five test firings of the indigenously developed Astra beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile. The 154kg (340lb) weapon has a claimed range of 110km (59nm) and a cruise speed of up to Mach 2.2 carrying a 20kg fragmentation warhead.

The Astra missile is expected to be integrated with Indian air force types including the Aeronautical Development Agency Tejas light combat aircraft and Sukhoi Su-30MKI, and potentially also included in upgrades to the service's legacy Dassault Mirage 2000s and RSK MiG-29s.

The state-owned DRDO also plans to jointly develop a short-range air defence system with MBDA using a vertically launched variant of Astra.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Vipul » 08 Mar 2009 05:10

Longest wait for result of fastest missile.

Three days after India’s military scientists tested a missile that they said took 150 seconds to reach its target, India’s army is still evaluating if it hit the bull’s eye in Rajasthan’s Pokhran desert firing range.

By any standard, 72 hours must be one of the longest periods a supersonic missile — which is touted as the world’s fastest — has taken for an evaluation. The Brahmos Mark II is said to be capable of flying at 2.8 mach or nearly 2.8 times the speed of sound.

The US Tomahawk cruise missile, meanwhile, is knocking on India’s door. Its maker, Raytheon Corporation, has contracted orders for the latest Block IV version of the missile to the UK’s Royal Navy.Raytheon has also made friendly enquiries in India and has offered to make presentations to the Indian armed forces.

Raytheon has earlier sold through government-to-government contracts six Firefinder artillery gun locating radars to India and is currently supplying equipment to India’s navy and air force apart from the army.

The Indian Army began raising a regiment of the Brahmos Mark I in 2007. The latest Mark II version is claimed to be four times faster and twice as heavy as the Tomahawk.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is also developing a Tomahawk clone, a secret project called the Nirbhay that is being prepared by the Advanced Systems Laboratory in Hyderabad. The Nirbhay is due for testing by end-2009.

The defence research establishment suspects that if Wednesday’s test is shown as a failure, competitors stand to gain.

For Sivathanu Pillai, the director of the Brahmos Mark II project, the Indian Army’s tests on the world’s fastest supersonic cruise missile are a nailbiter.

Brahmos is an acronym from the words Brahmaputra — India’s largest river — and Moskva — one of Russia’s best-known rivers — and is a joint venture between the DRDO and the NPO Mashinostroynia, the Russian Federal Unitary Enterprise.

A test of the Brahmos Mark II on January 20 went awry in mid-flight after a successful launch, missing the target. That test was witnessed by the Indian army chief, General Deepak Kapoor, among others.

The army was smug and, honestly, not unhappy with the failure.

The scientists concluded that a homing device on the Mark II version had failed and the missile missed the target by inches. Pillai had promised it would be set right within weeks and called for a re-test within a fortnight.

After the test on Wednesday (March 4), when Pillai briefly told a local radio correspondent that the test was a success and since then has gone mum, the standard army line has been “we are evaluating if it has met the general staff quality requirements”. The response from the Brahmos project team has been “you will have to ask the army”.

The army team at Wednesday’s test was led by the deputy chief of army staff (planning and systems), Lt Gen Madan. The parameters of the tests have not been made known but two of these are obvious.

First, whether it has hit the target, the bull’s eye, or not.

Second, because it is a cruise missile, whether it has performed an “S” manoeuvre to be able to evade an interceptor.

“We need to study every aspect,” said a senior army officer. “A series of tests have to be performed before we place an order worth Rs 10,000 crore,” he said.

In the 72 hours and more since the test, India’s defence research establishment is still sure about the speed of its missile but is less than sure about the pace of deployment.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 08 Mar 2009 06:24

Looks like new reqmts are being put. I think the army should get its own vehicle from where ever it wants and DRDO should forget about them. BTW they will still be unready next time something happens as they are still doing field trials and other humbug stuff.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gerard » 08 Mar 2009 07:47

The US Tomahawk cruise missile, meanwhile, is knocking on India’s door.


The US turned down a request from Israel to purchase the Tomahawk, because sales would violate the MTCR. Only the UK, which has an agreement with the US that predates the MTCR, has been allowed to buy the Tomahawk.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 08 Mar 2009 08:46

Maybe missiles should be under an autonomous force separate from the Army. At least then such things would not happen.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Kanson » 08 Mar 2009 09:45

Vipul wrote:Longest wait for result of fastest missile.

Three days after India’s military scientists tested a missile that they said took 150 seconds to reach its target, India’s army is still evaluating if it hit the bull’s eye in Rajasthan’s Pokhran desert firing range.

By any standard, 72 hours must be one of the longest periods a supersonic missile — which is touted as the world’s fastest — has taken for an evaluation. The Brahmos Mark II is said to be capable of flying at 2.8 mach or nearly 2.8 times the speed of sound.

......

A test of the Brahmos Mark II on January 20 went awry in mid-flight after a successful launch, missing the target. That test was witnessed by the Indian army chief, General Deepak Kapoor, among others.

The army was smug and, honestly, not unhappy with the failure.

The scientists concluded that a homing device on the Mark II version had failed and the missile missed the target by inches. Pillai had promised it would be set right within weeks and called for a re-test within a fortnight.

After the test on Wednesday (March 4), when Pillai briefly told a local radio correspondent that the test was a success and since then has gone mum, the standard army line has been “we are evaluating if it has met the general staff quality requirements”. The response from the Brahmos project team has been “you will have to ask the army”.

The army team at Wednesday’s test was led by the deputy chief of army staff (planning and systems), Lt Gen Madan. The parameters of the tests have not been made known but two of these are obvious.

First, whether it has hit the target, the bull’s eye, or not.

Second, because it is a cruise missile, whether it has performed an “S” manoeuvre to be able to evade an interceptor.

“We need to study every aspect,” said a senior army officer. “A series of tests have to be performed before we place an order worth Rs 10,000 crore,” he said.

In the 72 hours and more since the test, India’s defence research establishment is still sure about the speed of its missile but is less than sure about the pace of deployment.


:rotfl: huh, some news trickling ? Selected leaks ? But, not telling the full story. What happened this time, Army Chief doesn't have time to physically witness the test and play Sherlock homes ? No more interviews? No more browine points to be scored, huh ? What they want to call this latest test ? A Success ? Then what will they call the previous one ? This is the height of stupidity and everyone has ego to malish. And everyone can act smart. If everyone going to do tit for tat, final loser is the nation and ofcourse inclusive of Army and DRDO. Only stupid will cut the arm that feeds him and services him. And what is termed as high priority mission where the missile was tweaked to do high priority task, this kind of stupidity is happening. May God bless India!

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Victor » 08 Mar 2009 10:16

Seems like a lot of confusion on this Brahmos test. The already-operational Brahmos Mk1 flies at Mach 2.8, has superb accuracy at maximum range and performs the evasive "S" maneuver, all of which have been tested ad nauseum for years. Brahmos Mk2 would be a totally new hypersonic, Mach 5-8 missile to be inducted in 2013-4 timeframe. So what is this "Mk2" test now at Mach 2.8? It is an Mk1 "Block 2" with an improved seeker to take out smaller targets in a more crowded environment. Very significant capability in the current scenario.

These ddm reports have the usual bs spin to confuse everyone so no need for elevating our bp. Of course the army won't accept the fastest, most unstoppable cruise missile in the world until it does a double-flip afer a Q-turn and hits the bathroom window of the 17th house 290 km away at 950 mt/s. :roll:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 08 Mar 2009 10:59

The following two articles were printed in latest Indian Defense Review magazine (Lancer Publishaers), these articles are currently hosted by India Research Foundation as PDF file.

Shourya / Sagarika Missile

and

Way To A Credible Nuclear Deterrent

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Kanson » 08 Mar 2009 11:05

Actually, the poor chaps were asked to replicate the success attained elsewhere in this vehicle, at the request of service. There can be 100 things happen between the two, they can cross swords and spite each other privately. But you cant do that in public, and worse through media, can you ? The whole drama started after that. It is a cheap way to win over some one who is there is help you. You are debasing an entire org. Let say if they decided to hit back and this continues back & forth, the loser is the nation. Let hope and pray someone with magnanimity solve this problem.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby kittoo » 08 Mar 2009 14:28

Hey guys,

Even though I've been a regular visitor, I joined BR just to ask and discuss this.

I am an Aerospace Engg. student. A very reputed and senior DRDO scientist (it was over 1 year ago...sorry guys I forgot the name) once came to our campus and we (Ist and 2nd year Aero students) had a discussion with him. In that discussion, one guy asked him that why India hadn't made a single ICBM till then. His words were like these- "ICBMs are decades old technology. Who said we don't have them? Its not necessary that we speak about it everywhere. Don't worry."
My question is, even though he sounded very confident, was there actually some truth in his words? Cause its obvious that one needs tests for ICBMs and I don't remember India doing any. And also, even if we somehow have this technology, whats the point of it if we haven't deployed it?
So, was he saying that simply to encourage us?

I know I should have asked it long time ago, at least when I still had the name in my memory. Sorry for that.....

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 08 Mar 2009 14:42

kittoo wrote: In that discussion, one guy asked him that why India hadn't made a single ICBM till then. His words were like these- "ICBMs are decades old technology. Who said we don't have them? Its not necessary that we speak about it everywhere. Don't worry."
My question is, even though he sounded very confident, was there actually some truth in his words? Cause its obvious that one needs tests for ICBMs and I don't remember India doing any. And also, even if we somehow have this technology, whats the point of it if we haven't deployed it?
So, was he saying that simply to encourage us?

Kittoo: Welcome to BRF.

Per your reckoning what is the typical range of ICBM missile?

Pls read this articles and see the graph there to determine for yourself what is the range of Agni-3 and if India has any ICBM.
http://www.indiaresearch.org/WayToACred ... errent.pdf

In particular the
    Figure 3: Without TN warhead Indian payload’s effectiveness rapidly drop off at longer range

And for more pls read:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/ ... GNI-TD/TTB
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/ ... II_r11.pdf

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 08 Mar 2009 16:58

Hi Arun, help this layman understand the statement:

Pending the verification of thermonuclear warhead the high-yield Boosted Fission warhead sets the upper limit of Indian warheads, thus Indian missile range is often quoted for 1,000 Kg payload.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby vavinash » 08 Mar 2009 17:31

It means believing that India has a TN is a 200Kt leap of faith so 100o kg (80's nuke weight) is used as standard for range.
Kitoo, GOI will not officially acknowledge existence of ICBM. They did not acknowledge nukes for more than 2-1/2 decades.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby kittoo » 08 Mar 2009 17:49

vavinash wrote:Kitoo, GOI will not officially acknowledge existence of ICBM. They did not acknowledge nukes for more than 2-1/2 decades.


But the question is, how do you 'have' them without even testing?

And I read the documents and our best shot is 3500KM (going by official figures), nowhere near the 5000-5500 required to be called an ICBM.

And BTW, what happened to the special patented technology of increasing the range by 40% by applying a chromium based coating on the blunt cone of rocket? Did they apply it?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sum » 08 Mar 2009 20:27

vavinash wrote:It means believing that India has a TN is a 200Kt leap of faith so 100o kg (80's nuke weight) is used as standard for range.
Kitoo, GOI will not officially acknowledge existence of ICBM. They did not acknowledge nukes for more than 2-1/2 decades.

IIRC (as per some post Arun guru earlier), we do have 250 kg warheads now. Hence, those(1000 kg warhead weight) are worst case values onlee...
Also, helps in showing the range lower than it actually is(due to heavier warhead weight) :twisted:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gerard » 08 Mar 2009 20:39

Indian Express, Friday April 13 2007
Union Minister of State for Defence MM Pallam Raju... Giving the technical details of Agni-3, a ballistic missile, the minister said the strategic payload of the missile is between 100 kg to 250 kg

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Dileep » 08 Mar 2009 21:04

Some IT guru, please spoof the e-mail of rosoboronexport and send a message to who matters, offering the Topol-M to India.

In three days flat, there will be several articles in the media showing how lousy the Agni was, and how ALL the tests were utter failures.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby milindc » 08 Mar 2009 21:21

kittoo wrote:
vavinash wrote:Kitoo, GOI will not officially acknowledge existence of ICBM. They did not acknowledge nukes for more than 2-1/2 decades.


But the question is, how do you 'have' them without even testing?

And I read the documents and our best shot is 3500KM (going by official figures), nowhere near the 5000-5500 required to be called an ICBM.

And BTW, what happened to the special patented technology of increasing the range by 40% by applying a chromium based coating on the blunt cone of rocket? Did they apply it?


kittoo,
We are taking baby steps...
Now that we have precisely put a satellite in Moon's orbit, we will start the more harder ICBM testing and validation. :x

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Nayak » 08 Mar 2009 21:33


ramana
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 08 Mar 2009 22:10

I think the IA is not ready to accept anything local unless its useless stuff. They did this with Arjun and now with the Block II.


I dont know if the IA guy leaking the resentment has any technical brains or not but demanding an S manouver while getting a small target in a clutter environmnet at short range (~ 50km) is ridiculous as the high speed vehicle has to do many short duration divert pulses to get to the target to avoid the need for large turn radius moves.

In aerospace parlance he is technical ****ya. Must have got there by seniority and not by brains.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby kittoo » 08 Mar 2009 22:23



Oh I hate these leftist guys so much. Our nation has taken too much toll just because of their ideologies.
I don't get it, just don't get it. Why are they always at loggerheads with progression of Indian power? Are those reports of claiming them to be pro-Chinese true? I really don't believe in theories until proof is given but its for everyone to see that whenever there is an opportunity of India going upwards in International order, these guys would have some problem-always.
And why o why public still votes them in power? Am I being paranoiac or am I right here?

I don't know guys if I am being paranoiac but whenever I read or see or listen about these politicians doing something which does bad for India, especially in these times when its time to realize that we can be as powerful as any other country, I feel so angry I can't describe. Worst part is, I can't do anything. Yes I can vote, but that's it. What can I do when the next big step for nation is held hostage by these leftists for whatever reason they have. It makes my blood boil but just can't do anything. Say what you will about China being somewhat totalitarian state, what they have done in every single field is nothing short of impressive. I'm not saying that they don't have any problems or poverty or anything like that. But you have to admit that every single day they are surging ahead of us and we are held back by 'ideologies', 'vote bank politics' and the simple and plain 'cowardice' of our politicians and executives. So what if China and Russia or even USA will get angry if we deploy Missile shield or develop ICBM? Why cant we just tell them to do their own business cause whatever we are doing is on our own territory. Haven't they done it? What right they have to stop us? But the truth is, its more about we being easily pushed rather than taking a stand together and tell them we aren't going to listen. Do our politicians ever realize in what a volatile geo-political situation we are? Just what will we do when whole Pakistan will follow the ideology of Taliban. These guys dream of 'sultanate days' and 'Mughal days' when south Asia was Islamic, and if they somehow come into power in Pak, who is to claim that they wont use Nukes on India to achieve their dream? After all, India is the single biggest problem in achieving that. Yes we will still defeat them, but why should they even have courage to look at us that way? And why don't we reach such a level of power that as soon as they do something, we wipe them of.

Why our politicians don't see these simple things which every other person understands that a little anger of China or US is gonna cost us nothing. They too need us. Look at our trade with China and our importance geo-politically for US. And while understand that we need technologies from US so sometimes accommodating them must be done, why the hell should we listen to China on security measures? I mean, that country is so aggressive that they have all the plans to encircle us, through increasing relations with Pak, Sri Lanka and Burma. Everybody knows that. Do they care what India would think when they do that? And we have these 'traitors' (sorry couldn't resist) of leaders in leftists who unfortunately, still win some seats and disrupt the proceedings.

Oh I want to write so much, so much anger I have right now inside. But I realize that these are missile discussions and not political and that I've already written so much.

What do you guys think?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby nrshah » 08 Mar 2009 22:35

ramana wrote:
I dont know if the IA guy leaking the resentment has any technical brains or not but demanding an S manouver while getting a small target in a clutter environmnet at short range (~ 50km) is ridiculous as the high speed vehicle has to do many short duration divert pulses to get to the target to avoid the need for large turn radius moves.


Can't DRDO or any other set up ask army to show the same with the system that army proposes to buy?

- Nitin

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 08 Mar 2009 22:56

Aditya G wrote:Hi Arun, help this layman understand the statement:

Pending the verification of thermonuclear warhead the high-yield Boosted Fission warhead sets the upper limit of Indian warheads, thus Indian missile range is often quoted for 1,000 Kg payload.

The 1980 vintage 200 kt FBF that formed basis for Agni-TD payload (that is yet untested in its own) is credible deterrent to the most skeptical challanger ("Lal Topi"). That 1980 vintage warhead weighs considerable more then newer warhead that pending verification in LIF or field test.

From the article:
www.indiaresearch.org/WayToACredibleDeterrent.pdf

Credibility Issues
Payload credibility aspects have been addressed in the POK-2 round of tests conducted in May 1999. Nuclear Stewardship program and National Ignition test Facilities are critical to sustain credible deterrence.

Proven Indian nuclear warheads have small yield to weight ratio, thus delivery system consisting of Shourya, Agni-2 and Agni-3 are regional in nature. The old 200Kt FBF is heavy yet persuasive to skeptical challenger but results in shorter missile range. Agni-3 can carry three high yield warheads similar to Agni-2. India is likely to field Agni-3SL with a combination of FBF and TN to hedge the risk of untested TN warhead. India will require fewer missiles and warheads once Nuclear Stewardship Program is operational to make TN warhead credible. TN warhead will make Agni-3 a full range ICBM.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gerard » 08 Mar 2009 22:58

What system does the Army propose to buy?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby aditp » 08 Mar 2009 23:14

kittoo wrote:
vavinash wrote:Kitoo, GOI will not officially acknowledge existence of ICBM. They did not acknowledge nukes for more than 2-1/2 decades.


But the question is, how do you 'have' them without even testing?

And I read the documents and our best shot is 3500KM (going by official figures), nowhere near the 5000-5500 required to be called an ICBM.

And BTW, what happened to the special patented technology of increasing the range by 40% by applying a chromium based coating on the blunt cone of rocket? Did they apply it?


Ahem......wildcard this one...but we did have several PSLV failures, didnt we? Could these have been intentional splashes guised as failed launches. Unlikely I know, but well...maybe.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 Mar 2009 00:10

neerajb wrote:
SaiK wrote:is it good to have an electro-optical homing for LACM for terminal phase, thus removing the dependency with satellite based corrections that could be used for mid-course INS adjustments onlee?


One will surely not like the missile to miss it's target in fog, smoke, rain, clouds, storms etc which could be present around the target. High frequency radiations (i.e. IR, MMW or Laser) are very susceptilble to atmospheric attenuation. RF seeker ensures all weather capability.

Cheers....


then explain why Astra uses laser proximity sensing for terminal guidance?.. I was trying to think on the same lines for brahmos.

wonder what would be the attenuation issues say for the final 50-100 meters or less?

of course i am not considering the cost aspect for a S2S missile using A2A technology.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Bharat » 09 Mar 2009 00:54

http://www.asianage.com/presentation/leftnavigation/news/top-story/army-will-push-for-a-third-trial-of-brahmos.aspx

The Indian Army will push for a third test of a new version of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, following two tests, one of which failed while the other was successful, Army sources said.

The Army wants to be sure that the missile's accuracy is not in doubt and will agree to induction of the missile in another of its regiments only after evaluating the performance during a future third test, the sources said.

The Army's insistence comes just days after the second test in Pokhran of the BrahMos missile on March 4, which BrahMos Aerospace Corporation sources had hailed as "successful". The first test of the missile had failed. "One test has failed while the other appears to have been successful. We would like to wait for the results of the third test now," Army sources pointed out. "Considering the cost of the missile, we would like to be completely sure about the accuracy of this new version before its induction," the sources added.

While sources in the corporation called March 4 test successful and say they have videographic evidence of this, Army sources have not yet confirmed whether the missile had hit the "bull's eye" or fallen within the "circular error of probability", in which case it could still be termed as a successful test. "The missile should be able to hit the bull's eye every time it is tested," the sources said.

The Army was earlier upset over the failure of the first test of the new version of the BrahMos missile, which was conducted in January this year in the presence of the Army Chief, Gen. Deepak Kapoor. During the first test, the missile had reportedly overshot the target by a couple of kilometres.

The BrahMos is a supersonic cruise missile that can be launched from submarines, ship, aircraft or land, and has a range of about 290 km. One regiment in the Indian Army is currently armed with the BrahMos missiles, while in the Navy the missile has been fitted on to several frigates. According to reports, India has also sent two of its latest Su-30 MKI Block III air superiority fighter aircraft recently to Russia for integration of the BrahMos missile in it.

The Army is determined that another of its regiments will be armed with the new version of the BrahMos only after its doubts on the missile's accuracy are cleared.



Ramana:- Didn't want to cause a copyright issue.
Last edited by Bharat on 09 Mar 2009 01:30, edited 1 time in total.

ramana
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Mar 2009 01:13

Gerard wrote:What system does the Army propose to buy?



Anything but DRDO.

bharat that Asian Age article should be psoted in full as it shows the mindset of the 'sources'. The 'sources' think its a bullet that has to hit 'bullseye' everytime. I think the fellow was watching Discovery channel reruns of Tomahawk all the time and coming up with requirements. Even if the missile hit is in its CEP he is not satisfied. With that type of attitude he will be again found shortcoming when the time comes when the nation asks him to deliver. He will wring his hands and say not ready saar. Will be ready in 2050. and make bs remarks abo ut fighting with what we have. Very brave. Whne you had the time to get the best developed you sabaotage it and then send juniors up mtn slopes.

BTW, I know IA folks will get mad at me but the nation was short changed in 1965 and even in 1971 on the Western front. Common aam janata gave their gold and savings to buy arms and what did that fool niranajn Prasad do? Panikced and lost his battle dairy to tthe pakis. And this great man was the one who reduced the Red Eagle division(the glorious 4th which even Rommel appreciated) to a rout in 1962 and got away with divisonal command in 1965. Who was his godfather? He panics at the gates of Lahore. What about Khambatta in 1971. Another non performer.

Operation Parakram got botched thanks to their long delay in mobilization from rest stations. And at Kalchak what the hell they were thinking by allowing terrorists to massacre Army families? cant they even stand sentry at time of Operational ready state of their own camp?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 Mar 2009 01:27

If one goes by history it may not be anything but DRDO. They have very rigid boundaries and well established channels from where they buy at large.

Surya
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Surya » 09 Mar 2009 01:32

well finally others are seeing what we have been agonising on the Arjun\Armour thread.

but anyway its all moot - we will be never be ready to fight anyway

The day the IA learns the importance of a local military industry complex - the day we will take a first step towards being a half rate power.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sivabala » 09 Mar 2009 01:39

nrshah wrote:
ramana wrote:
I dont know if the IA guy leaking the resentment has any technical brains or not but demanding an S manouver while getting a small target in a clutter environmnet at short range (~ 50km) is ridiculous as the high speed vehicle has to do many short duration divert pulses to get to the target to avoid the need for large turn radius moves.


Can't DRDO or any other set up ask army to show the same with the system that army proposes to buy?

- Nitin

Though off topic relates to your concern. I read this news from BR only.

Years ago when the OFB proposed to reduce the range of a mortar design requirement to meet the weight specified, the army rejected the mortar offered by OFB. Then the army shopped around the world and bought mortar from Israel with the weight they wanted. But you know what the mortar also had lesser range than the one OFB delivered and the army was still happier.

This is one of the example that captures the attitude of the army regarding Indian designed items.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 09 Mar 2009 01:48

What is the role of Brahmos in IA? Lets' confine our self to tactical (non nuclear) roles for the time being and evaluate what are the qualitative and quantitative requirements of the missile to fulfill that role!

Ramana Ji, that outburst was uncalled for, especially based on interpretation of silence by the press!

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Surya » 09 Mar 2009 01:54

Does the army pay for the expenses of further tests?

High time people got outraged. Its a good thing

else all you will have is Huffy and Tuffy.

ChandraS

Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ChandraS » 09 Mar 2009 02:16

OT but I have to clear this misunderstanding.
sivabala wrote:Years ago when the OFB proposed to reduce the range of a mortar design requirement to meet the weight specified, the army rejected the mortar offered by OFB. Then the army shopped around the world and bought mortar from Israel with the weight they wanted. But you know what the mortar also had lesser range than the one OFB delivered and the army was still happier.

This is one of the example that captures the attitude of the army regarding Indian designed items.


Read this discussion we had on this issue last year. CLicky

That was a genuine concern from the Army unlike some of their other protestations.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 09 Mar 2009 02:25

Surya wrote:Does the army pay for the expenses of further tests?

High time people got outraged. Its a good thing

else all you will have is Huffy and Tuffy.


Ok let me ask, if one test is a failure and another is a success, is the system considered qualified? In any type of business, let alone in military.

OT- It is unfortunate that DRDO trials fail during 'high profile' tests when Brass are present, be it Arjun and now Brahmos! Sheer luck! (or lack of it)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 Mar 2009 02:33

IA's requirements driven by the doctrine established are based on technology and products (both quality and quantity) available to its well established setup. They can cut across this, and chart out something like what US Army might go after.

This was clearly said by pillai saab, and saraswat ji that what DRDO is setting up is entirely new to IA.. and would have to drive their strategies out of what DRDO develops. Well, the russians or for that matter any force don't use it, doesn't qualify for IA requirements does not look forward thought at all. It is important that IA graduates and understands this fundamental setup.

Arjun is the same case.. IA is struggling find a role for it. It is understandable they are having difficulties for Brahmos. Perhaps, they need a special aspect to these requirements and regiments are established in parallel as and when DRDO starts developing.. la a software project. At the req stage, the stake holders feeds into DRDO and correspondingly they chart on their doctrine.


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