Indian Missile Technology Discussion

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 18 Feb 2009 10:33

Arun_S wrote:
rakall wrote:BTW - Arun, you might be interested in these brochures of ISRO.. download from here - I left them in full res so that you can get all the numbers you may want..
http://rapidshare.com/files/199067468/ISRO.ZIP.html
Sorry I was busy with other stuff, and now I notice all 10 downloads are used, so cant download any more.
Can you pls upload again privately and email link that to me?

e-mail ID please!!!

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 18 Feb 2009 13:18

I think one of the immediate things that DRDO/RCI should take-up is a cheap seeker/guidance for Nag..

Either IIR or LaserGuidance that will enable Nag to be launched effectively against medium sized bunkers, command posts, radar sites etc from Rustom.. similar to the Hellfires raining on Paki's these days..

before the Rustom is ready we should develop a cheaper version of Nag (getting rid of the imported IIR seeker) and test it extensively from Hawk or LCA or Dhruv at slowspeeds and ready it for Rustom... For use on Rustom we could even go for a small datalink which can guide the missile to the target, recieving continous guidance updates -- in case we cannot develop a cost-effective seeker..

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 18 Feb 2009 17:37

Rahul M wrote:
Is it possible to convert one of the remaining foxtrots for this purpose? The torpedo tube that is.
why torp tube. cutting open the hull and inserting 2-4 VL cells would be the most optimum way to create a test platform rather than using one of the kilos.

it would probably need a protruding plug of the type PLAN xia sports, in order to accommodate the big brahmos and perhaps its successor.

They are looking seriously at a Pontoon launch, and that will be the first platform, after which, a sub will be used, as and when that comes in...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Feb 2009 20:44

KP, check the vayu page Nayak has kindly uploaded for us, they are talking of integrating the missile on submarine at russian shipyards.

it could be an IN ship or even an old russian one.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 18 Feb 2009 20:58

rakall wrote:I think one of the immediate things that DRDO/RCI should take-up is a cheap seeker/guidance for Nag..

Either IIR or LaserGuidance that will enable Nag to be launched effectively against medium sized bunkers, command posts, radar sites etc from Rustom.. similar to the Hellfires raining on Paki's these days..

before the Rustom is ready we should develop a cheaper version of Nag (getting rid of the imported IIR seeker) and test it extensively from Hawk or LCA or Dhruv at slowspeeds and ready it for Rustom... For use on Rustom we could even go for a small datalink which can guide the missile to the target, recieving continous guidance updates -- in case we cannot develop a cost-effective seeker..

It all depends on what Army or AF will ask. if they can get Helina into service with Dhruv WSI then its a gr8 start. Dhruv right now has no ATGM i guess, Mistral is just an AAM, So its more urgent for Dhruv.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Feb 2009 21:33

rakall, have they discussed the overall Nag guidance at all? Old reports had said there was Mg Telluride Focal Plane array which does the imaging. There is a radar that ranges the target and passes the coordinates to the Nag. It switches on the seeker in close proximity. All this is what gives its fire and forget capability. The IIR seeker was to be locally developed. Looks like that didnt happen.

The american car Cadillac has rear view imaging IR panel that is being adapted for mil use by the US military. The panel costs ~ $700 retail. So may be there are too high requirements for the NAG?

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 18 Feb 2009 22:20

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -2010.html

India plans delayed scramjet flight test for 2010
By Radhakrishna Rao

India's first scramjet technology demonstrator will be flight-tested next year, four years later than planned and having failed to meet two previous targets, by the government-run Defence Research and Development Laboratory in Hyderabad.

The Indian military wants to use scramjet systems for a hypersonic missile. The first demonstrator flight test will be carried out at India's integrated test range on its east coast.

Flight International revealed in 2004 that the country had planned a 2006 scramjet test. When that failed to take place, Israel Aerospace Industries announced in 2007 it was helping India develop the technology for a first flight in 2008.

"The biggest challenge [will] be how to sustain stable combustion during the high-speed trans-atmospheric flight of the vehicle," says sources at the Indian government's Defence Research and Development Organisation, under which the laboratory operates.

India has longer-term plans to use scramjet technology for its proposed 25,000kg (55,000lb) spaceplane called Avatar, the Sanskrit word for a god who appears in bodily form on Earth. The spaceplane would ferry civilian and military satellites of about 1,000kg into a low Earth orbit.

pramodkumarca · Post by **pramodkumarca** » 18 Feb 2009 22:36

Nitesh wrote:http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -2010.html

India plans delayed scramjet flight test for 2010
By Radhakrishna Rao

India's first scramjet technology demonstrator will be flight-tested next year, four years later than planned and having failed to meet two previous targets, by the government-run Defence Research and Development Laboratory in Hyderabad.

The Indian military wants to use scramjet systems for a hypersonic missile. The first demonstrator flight test will be carried out at India's integrated test range on its east coast.

Flight International revealed in 2004 that the country had planned a 2006 scramjet test. When that failed to take place, Israel Aerospace Industries announced in 2007 it was helping India develop the technology for a first flight in 2008.

"The biggest challenge [will] be how to sustain stable combustion during the high-speed trans-atmospheric flight of the vehicle," says sources at the Indian government's Defence Research and Development Organisation, under which the laboratory operates.

India has longer-term plans to use scramjet technology for its proposed 25,000kg (55,000lb) spaceplane called Avatar, the Sanskrit word for a god who appears in bodily form on Earth. The spaceplane would ferry civilian and military satellites of about 1,000kg into a low Earth orbit.

what is difference between ramjet and scramjet

pramodkumarca · Post by **pramodkumarca** » 18 Feb 2009 22:38

rakall wrote:
Arun_S wrote:rakall saab: You rock.

http://rapidshare.com/files/199067468/ISRO.ZIP.html

Please upload this file again

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Feb 2009 23:23

pramod, google is your friend. spoon feeding is not encouraged here.

rakall, could you mail me the ISRO stuff ??
(email in my profile signature)

alternatively you can upload it to ifile.it
no such irritating download limits/counters etc.

Aditya_M · Post by **Aditya_M** » 18 Feb 2009 23:26

pramod kumar - Ramjet drops the velocity of the air down to subsonic levels inside the engine and then fuel is burnt to give thrust. The faster you go, the faster the air comes in and it is difficult to slow it down. At very high speeds (generally near Mach 4) it behaves like air from the mouth against a candle - it blows out the flame instead of supplying oxygen. A Scramjet on the other hand attempts to keep the flame burning at very high speed, so that speeds up to Mach 5 and more can be reached.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 19 Feb 2009 00:00

pramodkumarca wrote: what is difference between ramjet and scramjet

As Rahul said: Use Google.
In a Ramjet super sonic incoming air is compressed to reduce it velocity to sub-sonic speed, and in that subsonic speed air combustion is done like in traditional jet engine.

In Scramjet the fuel is burnt in supersonic flow regime. So yes that is like lighting a candle in the exhaust of a supersonic jet engine.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Feb 2009 00:23

X-post.

a present to BRFites from a guru who hasn't been seen here for a long time.

check these out.

http://www.showdailys.com/events/default.asp?id=13

comprehensive daily reports for all of u
http://www.showdailys.com/E-publisher/i ... 1_19_19_34
http://www.showdailys.com/E-publisher/i ... 2_10_07_08
http://www.showdailys.com/E-publisher/i ... 3_01_50_13

Arun saar, you might find page8 of this thing interesting.
http://www.showdailys.com/E-publisher/i ... 3_01_50_13

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 19 Feb 2009 07:59

Thanks Rahul.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 19 Feb 2009 10:47

Rahul M wrote:pramod, google is your friend. spoon feeding is not encouraged here.

rakall, could you mail me the ISRO stuff ??
(email in my profile signature)

alternatively you can upload it to ifile.it
no such irritating download limits/counters etc.

Rahul, Prasadkumar, Arun --

the ISRO stuff can be downloaded from here http://ifile.it/j947dly

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 19 Feb 2009 11:48

Arun_S wrote:
pramodkumarca wrote: what is difference between ramjet and scramjet
As Rahul said: Use Google.
In a Ramjet super sonic incoming air is compressed to reduce it velocity to sub-sonic speed, and in that subsonic speed air combustion is done like in traditional jet engine.

In Scramjet the fuel is burnt in supersonic flow regime. So yes that is like lighting a candle in the exhaust of a supersonic jet engine.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that a combination of the two is required to get the scramjet portion to work. I'd say the ramjet portion needs to feed the 'pilot flame' to the scramjet portion.

But I'm an unpad when it comes to all things supersonic.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 19 Feb 2009 12:37

Rahul M wrote:KP, check the vayu page Nayak has kindly uploaded for us, they are talking of integrating the missile on submarine at russian shipyards.

it could be an IN ship or even an old russian one.

The problem, which the Brahmos guy told me is that the IN is already facing serious sub-serviceability issues, and are finding it difficult to spare one for almost a year. They are trying to see if they can combine an upgrade with this so that the numbers dont suffer.

The problem on the Russian side is that given their reluctance to bring Brahmos in their service, they are not willing to give one sub to be cut open just to test a weapon system that the Indians will use... .their thing is that since the Indians will use it, let them bring the platform. We cant spare any.

Negotiations on this aspect are going on with Brahmos, IN and the Russian navy involved.

In fact, when I asked this question a year ago, they said that they were looking at a pontoon launch. Now, when I asked the question, the pontoon launch had become much clearer, and they said that they are trying to ready a suitable pontoon platform.

ramana wrote:rakall, have they discussed the overall Nag guidance at all? Old reports had said there was Mg Telluride Focal Plane array which does the imaging. There is a radar that ranges the target and passes the coordinates to the Nag. It switches on the seeker in close proximity. All this is what gives its fire and forget capability. The IIR seeker was to be locally developed. Looks like that didnt happen.

The american car Cadillac has rear view imaging IR panel that is being adapted for mil use by the US military. The panel costs ~ $700 retail. So may be there are too high requirements for the NAG?

We are facing serious problems with IIR seekers... the tech is still being developed, and thus, we cannot really make usable seekers just yet. The problem is compounded by the fact that the French have us as a captive market and are unwilling to let that go by giving a JV or ToT.... instead, they are ripping us on price. However, we are slowly getting the tech, and with Israel also having some breakthroughs, we are looking at a JV... the French have obviously got nervous, and are trying to offer a JV.

The matter is better with mmW seekers, where we have one that is working upto 2 km. Due to our radar expertise, we're able to do better in this field (we're doing even better with Radar seekers) However, given the weight and the fact that IIR is ok for now, Army has said that we should work on it further and get back with a better product, till which time, they are happy with the IIR.

Now, given that we're better with RF seekers, ad knowing our level in this field, you can imagine our standard in the other two - mmW and Optronic (IIR) seekers.

Rahul M wrote:Ramjet & Scramjet

An interesting titbit from Brahmos - apparently, the Russians offered us full ToT on the propulsion, but we are not really that eager to accept their terms for it, since we're already moving to scramjet, and do have enough expertise in that area. So Ramjet ToT isn't really that important to us right now (I guess the Akash expertise is also good for us).

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 20 Feb 2009 00:57

rakall wrote:
Rahul M wrote:pramod, google is your friend. spoon feeding is not encouraged here.

rakall, could you mail me the ISRO stuff ??
(email in my profile signature)

alternatively you can upload it to ifile.it
no such irritating download limits/counters etc.
Rahul, Prasadkumar, Arun --

the ISRO stuff can be downloaded from here http://ifile.it/j947dly

That stuff is very informative and gives insight to many overt and not so overt capabilities. Specially the engines/thrusters with the stated dry mass.

Also interesting to see the 85 Kg Indian Medium Satellite sporting resolution of first generation IRS satellites that were much heavier.

And the Chankian Yindus stating the IRNSS accuracy of 20m at the fringes of 1,500Km distance from Indian borders

. Paki pigs can figure out what will be the accuracy when their national assets hidden in hills and crevices of their Garnail's musharraf are taken out by inhuman UAVs, be it La-whore, Sar-kutta, Quetta, Pasni, Swat or Malakhand. Jaguar(sic) vane be slit with surgical precision.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 20 Feb 2009 01:38

Arun Boss
I was going through these brochures, was quite struck by Air Breathing Engine--Scramjet engine. It has uncanny similarity to Akash design. Is there a Akash MKII in the offing?

GSLV MKIII LEO Payload 10 Ton. For the love of Mahadev. What kind of sat are we designing that will weigh a truck. Now from IRNSS I could guess, Indian Military will be getting a great shot in arm. All Navigation owned, operated by us.

SuKan · Post by **SuKan** » 20 Feb 2009 13:51

Any Update on second(feb 20) Brahmos Test.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 20 Feb 2009 19:58

Bangalore Local news says, the test has been postponed due to technical reasons. Is it an strategy because recently i read Mr Pillai saying that the missile was ready for testing.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 20 Feb 2009 22:34

Baljeet wrote:Arun Boss
I was going through these brochures, was quite struck by Air Breathing Engine--Scramjet engine. It has uncanny similarity to Akash design. Is there a Akash MKII in the offing?.

IMHO First BrahMos-II will use it, other new vehicles will come later.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 20 Feb 2009 23:39

BEL short-lists vendors for Akash missile

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Feb 2009 23:53

pkudva wrote:Bangalore Local news says, the test has been postponed due to technical reasons. Is it an strategy because recently i read Mr Pillai saying that the missile was ready for testing.

A lot of agency reports say the same thing. A software glitch was noted and the test postponed. It seems to be a DRDO only test as it should have been.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Feb 2009 00:20

rakall and kprasad a dated but relevant article on ATGMs. Explains why the cost of 3rd gen ATGMs is so high.

Recent advances in ATGMs- N Iyer, DRDO

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 21 Feb 2009 00:34

any updates on the Astra ? what seeker will it use, will it have LOBL and LOAL, both ? and by when will its captive trials and then developmental air to air trials be carried out?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Feb 2009 05:59

Could anyone paste the link to the article on shaurya by our asthana pandit

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Feb 2009 07:06

one more update :

MRSAM is just a land based variant of the same system developed for the Navy. Range should be similar, around 70 odd km. Radar will be the longer range variant of the Elta EL/M-2084 Multi Mission Radar. Mission S/W, TEL etc will be developed by India using the standard Tatra/ AL chassis. Model to be used will be similar to the Brahmos model.

SRSAM is basically going to be a hybrid of the Mica and Astra programs. But in this program, the radar and almost every other thing will be developed by DRDO.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 22 Feb 2009 11:57

Rahul M wrote:one more update :

MRSAM is just a land based variant of the same system developed for the Navy. Range should be similar, around 70 odd km. Radar will be the longer range variant of the Elta EL/M-2084 Multi Mission Radar. Mission S/W, TEL etc will be developed by India using the standard Tatra/ AL chassis. Model to be used will be similar to the Brahmos model.

SRSAM is basically going to be a hybrid of the Mica and Astra programs. But in this program, the radar and almost every other thing will be developed by DRDO.

2084 seems to be developed for detecting short range rockets.
more info

Elta's EL/M-2084 Multi-Mission Radar (MMR) is an advanced phased array radar capable in performing artillery and air defense missions. It detects a wide range of flying objects with low radar cross section (RCS), including artillery shells and rockets, even in the presence of ground clutter and electromagnetic interference. For ballistic targets the radar can spot and track hundreds of targets simultaneously, and pinpoint artillery fire sources at a range of 100 km. The system will also calculate the anticipated impact points for each target, alerting the locations that might be affected by the threat. The MMR is being integrated with the RAFAEL Iron Cap rocket intercepting system developed under an Israel MOD contract. When employed in support of air defense missions, the MMR detects and tracks all types of airborne targets, including aircraft, helicopters, cruise missiles and UAVs. The radar is capable of detecting aircraft and missile targets at ranges up to 350km, depending on altitude.

but may be land-based version can use extended range Rajendra or LRTR.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 22 Feb 2009 13:00

I feel all the missile tests whould be kept confidential, so that we dont come to wrong conclusions.Isnt it??

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Feb 2009 22:52

astra on mki from aroor's blog.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 23 Feb 2009 07:38

Super Super Super! From the horses mouth!

Interview with Dr VK Saraswat, Distinguished Scientist CCR&D(MSS), DRDO

http://www.domain-b.com/Video_Mediaplay ... d=2&id=444

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Feb 2009 11:24

Anurag wrote:Super Super Super! From the horses mouth!

Interview with Dr VK Saraswat, Distinguished Scientist CCR&D(MSS), DRDO

http://www.domain-b.com/Video_Mediaplay ... d=2&id=444

What a thinker. A true Vishwakarma who sees the weapons technology in everything. And he is right in every way.

Can some one run a speech to text program and get the transcript for its truly all encompassing.

MukulMohanty · Post by **MukulMohanty** » 24 Feb 2009 01:15

Ok, not sure if you guys have seen the latest Jane's Weekly. It's being reported that the problem with Bhramos was caused by a blip in the GPS guidance system where the missile lost contact with the GPS satellites resulting in the missile missing the targets. Apparantly, its being reported that the Indians aren't too happy about the GPS System and want to back to Glonass.

Now this is like an article in the side bar and not sure how relevant it is.

In other news, Janes also reports that India is interested in purchasing up to 14,000 Hellfire II missiles. Yes its thousands, this post the deal for 4,100 Milan2 AT Missiles recently acquired.

I was planning to get the Jane's at home but forgot it at work - has fair bit of detail on Aero 2009 and India's Defence Industry, also Aviation Weekly has one dedicated the same.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Feb 2009 01:43

Mukul, That info about GPS etc was linked above in this very thread. And they were supposed to have retested it on Feb20th and it got psotponed due to last minute checkout.

About Hellfires etc read the paper on ATGMs by Sri. N. Iyer and listen to the Dr. V.K. Saraswat video on Nag.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 24 Feb 2009 03:12

ramana wrote:
Anurag wrote:Super Super Super! From the horses mouth!

Interview with Dr VK Saraswat, Distinguished Scientist CCR&D(MSS), DRDO

http://www.domain-b.com/Video_Mediaplay ... d=2&id=444
What a thinker. A true Vishwakarma who sees the weapons technology in everything. And he is right in every way.

Can some one run a speech to text program and get the transcript for its truly all encompassing.

Indeed, I heard that two times over to absorb all that he said. Couple of things he said was harbinger of systems that will see daylight soon. My recollection of key lead-ins were MIRV and multi-interceptor atop ABM with sensing, descrimination and auto targeting.

Truely a Vishwakarma.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Feb 2009 03:22

For those wondering why I am invoking puranic lore
Vishwakarma

Compare to VKS speech.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 24 Feb 2009 04:28

Dr M Natarajan has denied that brahmos failed due to access to american GPS system and cleared that none indian weapons systems uses american GPS.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Feb 2009 16:02

N.KOrea's imminent "satellite launch",is worrying the As-Pac allies of the US and western nations,as they claim it is actually that of a ballistic missile test which could even threaten India.From the way in which the N.Koreans have sold their missile etch to rogue states like Pak,the warnings are worth taking serious note of.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 794101.ece
North Korea prepares for 'rocket launch'

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 24 Feb 2009 16:21

A Sharma wrote:Dr M Natarajan has denied that brahmos failed due to access to american GPS system and cleared that none indian weapons systems uses american GPS.

I wonder why he'd say that, when the Brahmos people at the stalls were confirming that there was a problem with the GPS they were using. Apparently, they lost contact just before the hit. They are not sure if it is accidental, or a deliberate loss of contact.

However, they are going in for more redundancy by using the GLONASS also on next versions- that means taht both the GPS and GLONASS signals will be used - redundancy.