Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby kit » 26 Feb 2009 19:19

On how to take on a supersonic antiship missile

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/aus ... dar-01055/

This technology is being developed by ACT electronics company CEA Technologies, and has become part of Australia’s ASMD project to make its new Anzac-Class frigates survivable against supersonic cruise missiles.

The 4th generation S-band CEAFAR active phased array radar is designed to be supplemented with the X-band CEAMOUNT Solid State Continuous Wave Illuminator, and both are intended to be small enough for installation on corvettes or small frigates like the ANZAC Class. These radars use digital beamforming techniques, which improves the ability to use multiple simultaneous beams that help improve performance in severe environmental clutter, and also provide improved search and targeting capabilities against very fast, maneuvering targets

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 27 Feb 2009 09:52

ramana wrote:I dint know thuis

Russia has already developed such seeker for multiple systems including I remember the only MMW guided Smart Shell with Anti Tank capability which was advertised as having MMW seeker something unique then.


Wonder how they get enough power for the seeker..

The power requirement will be no different from the current radar. In the overall power budget lower RF transmitter efficiency and higher propagation loss is largely compensated by higher antenna gain. Not to mention that MMW seeker could be using DSP for higher overall range while consuming lesser power for similar range performance from X band radar.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sum » 27 Feb 2009 10:57

Arun_S sir,
Sorry if i missed it but have you posted the article on Shourya (you had said that it will be out by 15th)?

TIA.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Avinash R » 01 Mar 2009 13:46

BrahMos-II by 2013, DRDO to develop invisible technology
Chennai | Sunday, Mar 1 2009 IST
The Indian defence establishment would have a hypersonic missile - BrahMos II - in its fold in the next four years and the DRDO was developing "Clock Technology" to make warships and aircraft totally invisible both to the human eye and radars.

Brahmos Aerospace was working on the hypersonic missile project, Brahmos II, which was expected to be ready by 2013, Defence Scientist and Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) Chief Controller Dr A Sivathanu Pillai said.

The indigenous second BrahMos missile would have improved speed and fire power. The speed range of the missile would be between Mach five (five times the speed of the sound) and Mach seven and it was expected to be ready by 2013, Dr Pillai, who is also the CEO and Managing Director of Brahmos Aerospace, said. He also said work on developing an universal missile launcher has commenced at the Brahmos Aerospace in Thiruvananthapuram.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby manoba » 01 Mar 2009 15:22

... the DRDO was developing "Clock Technology" to make warships and aircraft totally invisible both to the human eye and radars.


"Cloak Technology"... DDM at its best.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 02 Mar 2009 11:07

No news on Brahmos test yet?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby rahulranjan » 02 Mar 2009 19:18

ramana wrote:No news on Brahmos test yet?


DRDO to test-fire BrahMos II on Wednesday

Officials claimed that the technology in the Block II missiles was "unparallelled" and would help them hit even "insignificant targets" hidden in cluster of buildings.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Mar 2009 19:51

rahulranjan wrote:Officials claimed that the technology in the Block II missiles was "unparallelled" and would help them hit even "insignificant targets" hidden in cluster of buildings.


Now that should make ramana happy :)

Block II unparallelled means MMW radar .

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby vavinash » 02 Mar 2009 19:53

Block-II is different from hypersonic brahmos-II right?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby negi » 02 Mar 2009 19:57

Block II unparallelled means MMW radar .

Hmm interesting and obviously it is logical to assume NAG programe too should be doing well 8)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sum » 02 Mar 2009 19:58

vavinash wrote:Block-II is different from hypersonic brahmos-II right?

Certainly....

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ajay_ijn » 02 Mar 2009 20:11

posting from LCA thread.
Rahul M wrote:MIca/Astra combo for the joint SRSAM with MBDA.

oh so ur talkin about Maitri. but that is still in proposal stage. it would many years before they can develop and test it. Can IAF manage with SA-8 untill then. AFAIK they ordered 3 Squadrons worth of SPYDER.
in the news they were talking about 18 SPYDERs. couldn't understand if they are 18 TELs or 18 batteries. i am assuming that each squadron equipped with 6 TELs, which means 24 ready to fire missiles in each squadron.

How many squadrons would IAF require BTW? they will have to protect plethora of sites- airbases, cities, nuclear reactors, strategic missile/nuclear bases. considering 24 missiles for each squadron, requirement would be staggering. we have around 20 to 30 fighter bases alone.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Mar 2009 20:13

negi wrote:Block II unparallelled means MMW radar .

Hmm interesting and obviously it is logical to assume NAG programe too should be doing well 8)


Well I was about to ask that , how are we doing with Nag MMW variant , is the IA still interested in it or happy to have IIR and shelved the MMW variant ?

I think cost is the killer for Nag , considering the improved Milan and Russian 3rd gen ATGM are cheaper to import.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby p_saggu » 02 Mar 2009 20:26

Image

What are these holes in the nose cone of the Agni 3? Are these thrusters / piff paff motor outlets for terminal warhead maneuvring?
What is with the numerous slits on the nose cone and the second stage. I had earlier taken a picture of the dhanush, and it had similar slits all over its nose.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 02 Mar 2009 20:33

sum, AFAIK preliminary work on astra shorads has started but I'm not sure if the deal with MBDA has been inked or not.
btw, why call it LRSAM ? calling the same system LRSAM and MRSAM is a bit confusing.

...................
about R-77/derby integration the indications are that with significant israeli input in MMR it would be a much easier job. but derby is clearly a lesser capable missile than the R-77 in terms of range. but from KP/rakall's inputs IN has already taken the pragmatic decision to go for the derby while it waits for the astra, skipping the r-77.

however, RF seekers remain a sticking point, with MBDA asking for an arm and a leg, even the astra, both AAM and SHORAD versions will be dependent on them if DRDO doesn't have a breakthrough in the meantime. same goes for Nag.

coming to sqdn strength, it is likely that IAF SAM capacity may be expanded in the future if the right system at the right cost is available, so predictions based on past holdings may come down on the lower side.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby k prasad » 02 Mar 2009 20:44

Block II will be a true LACM variant, unlike the Block I, which was a very very limited land attack capability... the only difference is the new seeker SCAN ALGORITHM for scene correlation.

Do note that the seeker HAS not changed, and it is still a radar seeker, not a mmW seeker.

I asked if the Block II can be fired from a Block I launcher, or if they could be mixed within the launchers... the asnwer was that right now, it was not possible, but it would be easy to implement if required. Additionally, Block Is will be eventually replaced with Block IIs.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Mar 2009 21:10

k prasad wrote:Do note that the seeker HAS not changed, and it is still a radar seeker, not a mmW seeker.


I repeat , it is not possible to get those exotic "hitting a small target among the cluster of many small" unless they move to a high resolution RF seeker , which is MMW.

There is no way the present seeker which will most likely be a X band seeker for anti-ship role and to hit land based radio contrast target , can by any magic DRDO developed algo or S/W upgrade can turn Block I to what they are claiming a Block II can do.

My thinking here is this will be a Ka band MMW seeker either from Russia ( like in the case of present block I ) or something co-developed with them which brings this significant capability to Brahmos block II along with algo and S/W update , perhaps even a more modern DSP.

To add Russia already has this capability in some of their anti-tank and A2G weapon besides their claim about smart shell with such seeker , so obviously this is a mature and proven system ( check the pdf Phazotron at AeroIndia 2007 , page 17 & 18 " Milimeter Wave radar homer for air to surface missile , some one has linked it in BRF )

Now moving further it may be further possible to develop a dual seeker MMW/IIR ( multispectral is the word often used and EO seeker from Block 2 was also mntioned ) for an all passive approach anti-ship/anti-surface missile for Brahmos.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gerard » 03 Mar 2009 04:20


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 03 Mar 2009 04:36

k prasad wrote:Block II will be a true LACM variant, unlike the Block I, which was a very very limited land attack capability... the only difference is the new seeker SCAN ALGORITHM for scene correlation.

Do note that the seeker HAS not changed, and it is still a radar seeker, not a mmW seeker.

Austin wrote:
k prasad wrote:Do note that the seeker HAS not changed, and it is still a radar seeker, not a mmW seeker.


I repeat , it is not possible to get those exotic "hitting a small target among the cluster of many small" unless they move to a high resolution RF seeker , which is MMW.

There is no way the present seeker which will most likely be a X band seeker for anti-ship role and to hit land based radio contrast target , can by any magic DRDO developed algo or S/W upgrade can turn Block I to what they are claiming a Block II can do..

Problem with software ALGORITHM is that it is ony as good as the terrain data. Else it is "Junk in, Junk out".

If seeker is unchanged and SCAN is only a software algorithm, then IMHO the only way it can work is for apriori recce mission that has RF and optical fingerprints of target's environment. Then there is a good change that software SCAN ALGORITHM can do its job.
The other method is a high risk long shot, that of data fusion where by based on 3D ground map from carto satellites + previous optical recce photos; taking these two some hotshot algorithm can generate RF footprint of the approach path and target to create the datum data set for the SCAN ALGORITHM.

If OTOH Brahmos has MMW seeker it can perform RF to optical correlation on the fly, and zero in on target that is specified on the optical image during launch. This is more robust method and one that does not involve a long leap of faith by the end user services.

As an aside, the leap of faith analogy is similar to what prevents Indian army commanders and strategic military leadership from biting on Chidabram's hawking 200Kt TN bum based on fizz of Shakti-1. Incredible!! :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby narmad » 03 Mar 2009 05:15

DRDO to test-fire BrahMos missile on March 4
"The new seeker being developed is unique and would help us to hit our targets which are insignificant in terms of size in a cluster of large buildings. Once developed, we would be the only nation with this advanced technology," the officials claimed.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 03 Mar 2009 08:30

Arun_S wrote:If OTOH Brahmos has MMW seeker it can perform RF to optical correlation on the fly, and zero in on target that is specified on the optical image during launch. This is more robust method and one that does not involve a long leap of faith by the end user services.


Nice , i didnt know that MMW seeker can perform RF to optical corelation in realtime , so essentially a EO image of the target provided by UAV is all that will be needed to hit a small target with pin point accuracy :eek:

Any thing less than that is a 200 Kt leap of faith :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 04 Mar 2009 00:22

Austin wrote:
rahulranjan wrote:Officials claimed that the technology in the Block II missiles was "unparallelled" and would help them hit even "insignificant targets" hidden in cluster of buildings.


Now that should make ramana happy :)

Block II unparallelled means MMW radar .


Lets see. They will have toshow the end video after the recent non-performance. And hope its spectacular. Watch AAj Tak and Zeenews for video clips tomorrow.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gerard » 04 Mar 2009 05:25


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 04 Mar 2009 05:39


Y. Mallikarjun & T.S. Subramanian

They described it as “a major test to establish a ballistic missile defence [BMD] shield as part of the network-centric warfare.”
.... . . . .The launch will feature two missiles.

...... . . . As it zeroes in on the Wheeler Island, off Damra village on the Orissa coast, a Prithvi Air Defence (PAD) missile will lift off from the Wheeler Island, intercept the incoming “enemy” missile at an altitude of 70-80 km in the last one second and a half of its flight and pulverise it.
Editorial mistake in not catching error in "last one second and a half of its flight"
The interceptor PAD missile will use, for the first time, the gimballed directional warhead. It has so far been used only in the U.S. and Russia. When the directional warhead fragments in 360 degrees all round, the target missile coming in from only one direction is sure to be blown up.

A directional warhead weighs less than 30 kg but its lethality is equivalent to a 150-kg warhead.

Excellent. That is payload mass efficiency gain of 5 times. I/e/ small missile does the job of a 5 times bigger ABM mijjile (sic).

In terms of strategic importance, the test would establish India’s capability to intercept Pakistan’s Hatf and Ghauri missiles.

I am sure the writer meant "Hatf and Ghauri missiles launched by non-state actors". Just slip of Zabaan.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby andy B » 04 Mar 2009 05:47

^^^ Arun saar,

Noobie question: So directional warhead will be sort of exploding in a line "l" straight directed straight towards the targeted missile/rv rather than exploding in a 360 degree circle ''O" and thus requires a smaller warhead as it is intened to explode in only one direction and all/most available energy can be thrown in that direction....right :?:

Also yes there is a 5times gain...but I wonder if 30kgs is the weight of the new warhead including the gimballed assembly and other associated equipment needed for such a warhead :?: Either way it will still be way less than 150kgs so great achievement over all...JMT

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 04 Mar 2009 09:54



I think if this tests suceeds , the ABM system will enter into LIRP and continue further test till done by 2012.

I think the Directional Warhead blast will be something like this

Normal Blast 360 * ---> O T
Directional Blast will be Conical ---< T

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Shishir P » 04 Mar 2009 10:15

I read somewhere that the brahmose test is there today.........can anyone confirm this or give any updates

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby k prasad » 04 Mar 2009 10:19

Austin wrote:
k prasad wrote:Do note that the seeker HAS not changed, and it is still a radar seeker, not a mmW seeker.


I repeat , it is not possible to get those exotic "hitting a small target among the cluster of many small" unless they move to a high resolution RF seeker , which is MMW.

There is no way the present seeker which will most likely be a X band seeker for anti-ship role and to hit land based radio contrast target , can by any magic DRDO developed algo or S/W upgrade can turn Block I to what they are claiming a Block II can do.

My thinking here is this will be a Ka band MMW seeker either from Russia ( like in the case of present block I ) or something co-developed with them which brings this significant capability to Brahmos block II along with algo and S/W update , perhaps even a more modern DSP.


I don't know what you have heard from the Brahmos people Austin, but what i hae got confirmed is that the Block II will have NO change in the seeker at all.... the extra algorithm is the only thing added. Hence, I dont see how our daydreaming will change the missile (at least the block II) in any way.

However, the brahmos guy did mention that they are looking at a new seeker, a jv between india and Russia... he didn't elaborate on the type - ie RF or mmW. However, if you are saying mmW will be fielded, it may probably only come on the Block III or IV BrahMos.

However, with the SCAN, he said that the radar seeker would process the return data and compare it with a reference image already obtained (a priori information as Arun was saying??), and at the right point, give the missile the order to tip over and attack from top....


Also, I don't know how we can field a mmW seeker with such a high required range, and the extra power required given that the ones we've developed are only reaching 2-2.5 km right now. Arun saar, qn about this - is it actually possible to create such a mmW seeker with tens of kms of range???

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 04 Mar 2009 10:47

k prasad wrote:I don't know what you have heard from the Brahmos people Austin, but what i hae got confirmed is that the Block II will have NO change in the seeker at all.... the extra algorithm is the only thing added. Hence, I dont see how our daydreaming will change the missile (at least the block II) in any way.


I might be day dreaming , but if what you say is true then DRDO is in the business of selling snake oil :wink:

However, with the SCAN, he said that the radar seeker would process the return data and compare it with a reference image already obtained (a priori information as Arun was saying??), and at the right point, give the missile the order to tip over and attack from top....


What DRDO is claiming about Brahmos II is really something exotic , something unheard of and something untried any where in the world , if they can hit a small insignificant target among a cluster of many with pin point accuracy and only SCAN with Algo/SW upgrade can do it , then let me pray to get that Big Leap of Faith :)

By the way have you though over , if this was that simple that only a software upgrade/Algo can do the task , why even the latest Block 3 Exocet subsonic missile can just claim to hit Land Based Radio contrast target , and not a small insigficant target among the cluster of many , AFAIK no subsonic missile leave aside supersonic one have claimed to possess such capability.

Seriously though why spoil the party , today is the D day , we will get more information if the test suceeds this time around.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Nash_M » 04 Mar 2009 11:10

Brahmos successfully test fired from Pokhran. Flash news on Samay.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 04 Mar 2009 11:23

Headlines Today confirms the same , sucessfull test of Brahmos

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 04 Mar 2009 11:29

andy B wrote:^^^ Arun saar,

Noobie question: So directional warhead will be sort of exploding in a line "l" straight directed straight towards the targeted missile/rv rather than exploding in a 360 degree circle ''O" and thus requires a smaller warhead as it is intened to explode in only one direction and all/most available energy can be thrown in that direction....right :?:

Yes. As Austin posted the blast will be sectoral instead of being omni directional.
IIRC Akash also sports similar warhead feature ( and that is based on computer selecting which fuse in the array to fire first)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 04 Mar 2009 11:46

k prasad wrote:I don't know what you have heard from the Brahmos people Austin, but what i hae got confirmed is that the Block II will have NO change in the seeker at all.... the extra algorithm is the only thing added. Hence, I dont see how our daydreaming will change the missile (at least the block II) in any way.

As I opinion'ed earlier its feasible, but will be a stretch. Now it may be day dreaming today, but once DRDO demonstrates it working, one can't argue against demonstrated fact.

I wish Chidambram demonstrated a 200kT in Pokhran, and no one will braying for his blood today. :twisted:

Also, I don't know how we can field a mmW seeker with such a high required range, and the extra power required given that the ones we've developed are only reaching 2-2.5 km right now. Arun saar, qn about this - is it actually possible to create such a mmW seeker with tens of kms of range???
The pattern recognition of environment around the target needs to be done when missile has already decedent to lower altitude (I.e. not required at 10 km cruising altitude). Hence range requirements between 2 and 5 m will be IMHO quite adequate. And making a mmW seeker with range of between 2 and 10 km is not a big deal. As I mentioned earlier making a mmW seeker with same range as current radar will IMHO not require higher battery power then the one used today. BrahMos is on right track.

So what is the result of the missile test today.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby nrshah » 04 Mar 2009 12:01

http://www.samaylive.com/news/india-suc ... 12076.html

India successfully testfires supersonic BrahMos missile

Jaisalmer: The Block II version of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile was successfully test-fired today in the Pokhran field firing range, defence sources said.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gaurav_S » 04 Mar 2009 12:03

New version of cruise missile BrahMos test fired in Pokhran


From TOI. Have to wait for results.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby milindc » 04 Mar 2009 12:20

AoA.

Indian Express reporting that BrahMos hit the target...

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Nitesh » 04 Mar 2009 12:41

AoA
http://timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=31043

BrahMos missile successfully test-fired
3/4/2009 12:04:07 PM
The BrahMos cruise missile successfully test-fired at Pokhran

New version of cruise missile BrahMos was today (March 4) successfully test-fired in Pokhran in Rajasthan desert, DRDo officials said.

After failing to hit the target in the previous test, the Block II version of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile today hit the target during the test.

The earlier test of the Indo-Russian joint venture missile was carried out on January 20 where it took off successfully but deviated from its path and landed far away from its target.

Speaking about the earlier problems with the missile, officials claimed that there was a "small defect" in the software of the homing device of the missile, which they claimed to have rectified for the test this week.

Officials claimed that the technology in the Block II missiles was "unparallelled" and would help them hit even "insignificant targets" hidden in cluster of buildings.

"The new seeker being developed is unique and would help us to hit our targets which are insignificant in terms of size in a cluster of large buildings. Once developed, we would be the only nation with this advanced technology," the officials claimed.

Army has already made it clear to BrahMos Aerospace Corporation that it will induct the supersonic missile's new version only after it proves its capabilities in a series of tests to be conducted in the near future.

DRDO officials claimed that despite the failure of tests, BrahMos would be able to start deliveries of the 240 missiles order from the Army in two years from now as per the original schedule.

Army has already inducted one regiment of the Block I version of the missile. BrahMos is an Indo-Russian joint venture company with its headquarters in Delhi.

(With inputs from agencies)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby shiv » 04 Mar 2009 12:49

Arun_S wrote:
k prasad wrote:I don't know what you have heard from the Brahmos people Austin, but what i hae got confirmed is that the Block II will have NO change in the seeker at all.... the extra algorithm is the only thing added. Hence, I dont see how our daydreaming will change the missile (at least the block II) in any way.

As I opinion'ed earlier its feasible, but will be a stretch. Now it may be day dreaming today, but once DRDO demonstrates it working, one can't argue against demonstrated fact.

I wish Chidambram demonstrated a 200kT in Pokhran, and no one will braying for his blood today. :twisted:

Also, I don't know how we can field a mmW seeker with such a high required range, and the extra power required given that the ones we've developed are only reaching 2-2.5 km right now. Arun saar, qn about this - is it actually possible to create such a mmW seeker with tens of kms of range???
The pattern recognition of environment around the target needs to be done when missile has already decedent to lower altitude (I.e. not required at 10 km cruising altitude). Hence range requirements between 2 and 5 m will be IMHO quite adequate. And making a mmW seeker with range of between 2 and 10 km is not a big deal. As I mentioned earlier making a mmW seeker with same range as current radar will IMHO not require higher battery power then the one used today. BrahMos is on right track.

So what is the result of the missile test today.


Arun I spoke to the Brahmos people at Aero India. I was told that the missile in the first test actually passed exactly above the target and beyond it after which the self-destruct mechanism kicked in.

The explanation given to me was that the accuracy was not the problem but that the original software for the final homing in of the missile did not require the missile to dip down and hit a spot on the ground. According to the chap who spoke to me the software required tweaking for the missile to point nose down and hit the pinpointed target on the ground rather than pass a couple of meters (or whatever) over it

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Mihir.D » 04 Mar 2009 13:28

Nitesh wrote:DRDO officials claimed that despite the failure of tests, BrahMos would be able to start deliveries of the 240 missiles order from the Army in two years from now as per the original schedule.
(With inputs from agencies)


One question.. why only 240 ?

Philip
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Posts: 20723
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Philip » 04 Mar 2009 13:43

Because there appear to be other goodies in store for the future! In two years time there will be other major developments on the missile front,with newer longer range missiles available to the forces,apart from the long awaited cruise missile.The IN's needs first have to be met,then the air-launched version for the IAF apart from the Army's requirements.Hypersonic Brahmos will also be in initial trials stage by then and should more be needed,there will be no problem whatsoever to do so.Brahmos missiles have one liability-that of the (official) range conforming to the MTCR ,which the Russians cannot break.


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