Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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vavinash
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby vavinash » 04 Mar 2009 13:47

Enough for pakistan. For china nirbhay and BM's.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Nitesh » 04 Mar 2009 13:59

DRDO is taking some time
"The analysis of the parameters of the missile flight will take some time," a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) official said while confirming the test firing of the missile.

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... lvacAxmrQ=

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Sanku » 04 Mar 2009 14:19

There does appear to be a new seeker in Block II; it is possible that there is only software correction in blockII test 1 and block II test 2, but block II probably had a new seeker and new software both to increase its lethality

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/brahmos-miss ... 761-3.html

"The new seeker system is unique and it will help us to hit the targets, which may be insignificant in terms of size, in a cluster of large buildings. We are the only nation having this advanced technology," they claimed.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby aditp » 04 Mar 2009 17:10

Philip wrote:Because there appear to be other goodies in store for the future! In two years time there will be other major developments on the missile front,with newer longer range missiles available to the forces,apart from the long awaited cruise missile.The IN's needs first have to be met,then the air-launched version for the IAF apart from the Army's requirements.Hypersonic Brahmos will also be in initial trials stage by then and should more be needed,there will be no problem whatsoever to do so.Brahmos missiles have one liability-that of the (official) range conforming to the MTCR ,which the Russians cannot break.


Read somewhere (on BR itself - I think it was rakall or k prasad) that Brahmos range is restricted to 290kms only via software. Actual max range is substantially higher. So the day the GoI decides to give the MTCR the one finger salute, the Brahmos will be hitting targets much deeper in Puke territory.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby nrshah » 04 Mar 2009 17:22

Read somewhere (on BR itself - I think it was rakall or k prasad) that Brahmos range is restricted to 290kms only via software. Actual max range is substantially higher. So the day the GoI decides to give the MTCR the one finger salute, the Brahmos will be hitting targets much deeper in Puke territory.[/quote]


Also, When they are talking of hypersonic version, range of only 300 kms does seem feasible. As the job can be done by supersonic version with precision, why use hypersonic version which will be costlier.

-Nitin

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ajay_ijn » 04 Mar 2009 17:53

Mihir.D wrote:
Nitesh wrote:DRDO officials claimed that despite the failure of tests, BrahMos would be able to start deliveries of the 240 missiles order from the Army in two years from now as per the original schedule.
(With inputs from agencies)


One question.. why only 240 ?

Since Army didn't state the exact numbers required in public, its quite difficult to guess how many they would actually need. but one thing is sure, it will be used against highly protected targets which fighter aircraft, attack helicopters cannot easily neutralize.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby vsudhir » 04 Mar 2009 17:54

New version of BrahMos missile test fired successfully

"The Block II BrahMos missile was successfully launched at 10.30 am on Wednesday morning," officials of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), who have developed the weapon system in collaboration with Russia scientists, told PTI.

The missile "took two-and-a half-minutes to strike its target in the Pokhran firing range in Rajasthan," they said.

The test launch was witnessed by Deputy Army Chief (Planning and Systems) Lt Gen M. S. Dadwal among others. The latest land attack version of the missile has been developed for the Army and the weapon was fired in a vertical-launch configuration, the officials said.


The officials said the "unique" technology in the Block II BrahMos version made the missile an "unparalleled" one giving the armed forces the ability to hit targets in building clusters. "The new seeker system is unique and it will help us to hit the targets, which may be insignificant in terms of size, in a cluster of large buildings. We are the only nation having this advanced technology," they claimed.


Really?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Baljeet » 04 Mar 2009 20:32

This news made my day. They should give some idea about what does "Unparalleled" technology means. Does this mean there is new seeker that is far advanced than anything available in market, with gimballed type warhead that will pulverize the building in 360 direction. If latter is the case there is no way any building structre can withstand such explosion, they will collapse onto themselves.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SaiK » 04 Mar 2009 20:51

that could simply mean, army can't ignore brahmos for any other replacement missile system. :wink:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ajay_ijn » 04 Mar 2009 20:56

vsudhir wrote:New version of BrahMos missile test fired successfully

"The Block II BrahMos missile was successfully launched at 10.30 am on Wednesday morning," officials of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), who have developed the weapon system in collaboration with Russia scientists, told PTI.

The missile "took two-and-a half-minutes to strike its target in the Pokhran firing range in Rajasthan," they said.

The test launch was witnessed by Deputy Army Chief (Planning and Systems) Lt Gen M. S. Dadwal among others. The latest land attack version of the missile has been developed for the Army and the weapon was fired in a vertical-launch configuration, the officials said.


The officials said the "unique" technology in the Block II BrahMos version made the missile an "unparalleled" one giving the armed forces the ability to hit targets in building clusters. "The new seeker system is unique and it will help us to hit the targets, which may be insignificant in terms of size, in a cluster of large buildings. We are the only nation having this advanced technology," they claimed.


Really?

may be they are talking about SAR type seeker as Austin speculated. AFAIK it hasn't been implemented with any long range standoff missiles availaible in the market.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 04 Mar 2009 21:50

Good. As per news reports Army officers witnessed the test. Now await the release of the target video.

From memory, Army bought Block I on the premise that Block II will be a follow-on. All new buy were to be Block II. Block II had the el-op seeker with video transmission to base and a special software to enable pinpoint strikes. If you scan the DRDO Techfocus and the Newsletters there are scientists who got awards for this gizmo. The algorithim enhancement appears like a side project for one scientist. I expect the IAF versio to have Block II from the get go.

This test once evaluated will allow the Army to take out most TSP targets with pin point precision. In addition if equipped with special warheads will allow the TSP nukes to be taken out even if hidden underground.

If anyone comes across reports from TSS in Hindu please post. All others are not upto mark.


New version of Brahmos test fired successfully

New version of BrahMos missile test fired successfully
New Delhi (PTI): After failing to hit its target in the previous test, a new version of the 290 km-range supersonic BrahMos cruise missile was successfully test launched on Wednesday at a firing range in Pokhran in Rajasthan desert.

"The Block II BrahMos missile was successfully launched at 1030 hours this morning," officials of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), who have developed the weapon system in collaboration with Russia scientists, told PTI.

The missile "took two-and-a half-minutes to strike its target in the Pokhran firing range in Rajasthan," they said.

The test launch was witnessed by Deputy Army Chief (Planning and Systems) Lt Gen M S Dadwal among others. The latest land attack version of the missile has been developed for the Army and the weapon was fired in a vertical-launch configuration, the officials said.

The earlier test of the Indo-Russian joint venture missile was carried out on January 20 when after a successful take off, it deviated from its course mid-way and failed to hit the target.

The officials said that a "defect" in the software of the homing device of the missile had been rectified leading to its successful test today.


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby vavinash » 04 Mar 2009 23:14

Whats wrong with these morons. How long does it take to analyze the flight data?

http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.ns ... enDocument

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 04 Mar 2009 23:26

You wont believe if I told you. ~ 8hrs for quicklook. And detailed a week to check all the parameters. They probably have the target video in about 10 mins. The Army has to be convinced.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SRay » 05 Mar 2009 01:37

More details...

http://www.hindu.com/2009/03/05/stories/2009030555111100.htm

Informed sources described it as “a difficult mission” because the target was just 50 km away instead of the normal range of 290 km. Besides, the missile had to perform “a discriminatory role”: it had to hit the desired target out of a cluster of small targets, resembling “a factory-type situation.” The time given to the missile to perform manoeuvres and hit the target was much less than the normal flight. But these “constraints were overcome” with the Global Positioning System (GPS) update coming in correctly and the missile homed in on the desired target, sources said.

The missile flew at a velocity of Mach 2, twice the speed of sound. The normal version flies at Mach 3.

Last time the missile failed to hit the target as the GPS did not have time to correct the error in the inertial navigation system (INS). So the GPS update did not come in. This time, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) ensured that even if the GPS update did not flow in, the missile would hit the target. Modifications were made in the software and simulation runs conducted.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Jay » 05 Mar 2009 01:53

vavinash wrote:Whats wrong with these morons. How long does it take to analyze the flight data?

http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.ns ... enDocument


Oh, let me apologise on behalf of these said morons who has nothing else to do, unlike your royal highness here Bit**ing about the delay in announcing results. Let me admonish them for not following our esteemed neighbours fast turnaround of results of their Pindi painted Barbers.

Note: What do you think this is, a Mcdonald???

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 05 Mar 2009 02:44

i asked
If anyone comes across reports from TSS in Hindu please post.



and
New BrahMos test successful

T.S. Subramanian

CHENNAI: A new version of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile meant to attack a particular target out of a cluster on land was successfully tested at the Army’s range at Pokhran, Rajasthan, on Wednesday.

This was its 19th flight and the launch took place at 10.35 a.m. In its previous flight on January 20 it missed the target following a software glitch.

This variant is called the Block II version. BrahMos is essentially an anti-ship missile.

Informed sources described it as “a difficult mission” because the target was just 50 km away instead of the normal range of 290 km. Besides, the missile had to perform “a discriminatory role”: it had to hit the desired target out of a cluster of small targets, resembling “a factory-type situation.” The time given to the missile to perform manoeuvres and hit the target was much less than the normal flight. But these “constraints were overcome” with the Global Positioning System (GPS) update coming in correctly and the missile homed in on the desired target, sources said.

The missile flew at a velocity of Mach 2, twice the speed of sound. The normal version flies at Mach 3.

Last time the missile failed to hit the target as the GPS did not have time to correct the error in the inertial navigation system (INS). So the GPS update did not come in. This time, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) ensured that even if the GPS update did not flow in, the missile would hit the target. Modifications were made in the software and simulation runs conducted.

The launch met different mission requirements.



So it was slowed down to account for the terminal manouvers. And software fixed in case of non reciept of GPS signal update. Still very challenging.

And the more difficult mission short range was proofed first. The longer range one should be easier. So TSP cant keep their battlefield chotus anymore in the field.

BTW, 150 Km is FEBA (Forward Edge of Battle Area).

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 05 Mar 2009 04:29

Oh! Oh! Something is not right. Per Telegraph, Army and DRDO still pouring over data. The quick look can tell if it hit the target or not. And whats all the fuss about meeting all the reqmts? Need to see what the rumor mongers come up with.


Google Link

OTH could be extra caution after the Jan 20th test.
-
I bet they will come back and say its a failure as it didnt hit at Mach 3.

Can the bird accelerate to Mach3 in ~ 50km flight?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SaiK » 05 Mar 2009 05:07

http://deccanherald.com/Content/Mar52009/national20090305122126.asp The missile “took two-and-a half-minutes to strike its target in the Pokhran firing range in Rajasthan,” ...“The new seeker system is unique and it will help us to hit the targets, which may be insignificant in terms of size, in a cluster of large buildings. We are the only nation having this advanced technology,”


btw, 2 1/2 min per this report.. and the earlier TSS news says 50 km away. had it been 300 km, meaning for this time it near 2 km/sec. if its only 50kms, then it took about .33km/sec [=> 33 m /s] !?.

now, at a google level mach conversion, it would be [mach 2 = 680.58 m / s].. something i am not getting.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 05 Mar 2009 05:10

From where is it gonna hit mach 3???? the reporters are bingo journos standing in line and blowing air in opposite direction to hardly decrease the speed to mach 2.8. and that too is onleee passible if thier editors accept to do so :-o

forget the real specs and the cause and wotever the heck out of it........the people poping out newly every day and creating a blog with some silly bully poses nearby helos or fighters and proclaiming themself as technomighty( the person who thinks himself to be gud,better and best in all technology related stuff).recently a redhot neo-boran alloy rod deepened into prasun who himself claims to be a jingo living with yankee pennies.Soon the other journos will follow the perimeter.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 05 Mar 2009 05:26

SaiK wrote:
http://deccanherald.com/Content/Mar52009/national20090305122126.asp The missile “took two-and-a half-minutes to strike its target in the Pokhran firing range in Rajasthan,” ...“The new seeker system is unique and it will help us to hit the targets, which may be insignificant in terms of size, in a cluster of large buildings. We are the only nation having this advanced technology,”


btw, 2 1/2 min per this report.. and the earlier TSS news says 50 km away. had it been 300 km, meaning for this time it near 2 km/sec. if its only 50kms, then it took about .33km/sec [=> 33 m /s] !?.

now, at a google level mach conversion, it would be [mach 2 = 680.58 m / s].. something i am not getting.


I think it makes sense. Mach 1 = 1000kmph right? So @ M2, you have 2000 km for 60 minutes approx. For 1 minute, its 33km @ m2, 2 minutes should be 50 odd km (since its not exactly 2000km). Whats to not understand? Or am i missing something?

USS.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SaiK » 05 Mar 2009 05:37

sorry boo boo in my cut and paste.. i had copied only the after decimals. its 333.33 m/s where as at mach 2 it is googled to be at 680.58 m / s. sope, was it traveling then near mach 1 rather?

the confusion remains. for 50km range, the 150 seconds sounds too much of a time to hit the target.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Kailash » 05 Mar 2009 06:03

What we are calculating is based on total time and distance. That give the average speed over the trip.

The missile could have still touched Mach 2 somewhere in the middle (though not very likely).

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby andy B » 05 Mar 2009 06:09

Since the speed of sound increases as the temperature increases, the actual speed of an object traveling at Mach 1 will depend on the fluid temperature around it. Mach number is useful because the fluid behaves in a similar way at the same Mach number. So, an aircraft traveling at Mach 1 at sea level (340.3 m/s, 761.2 mph, 1,225 km/h) will experience shock waves in much the same manner as when it is traveling at Mach 1 at 11,000 m (36,000 ft), even though it is traveling at 295 m/s (654.6 mph, 1,062 km/h, 86% of its speed at sea level).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_number

Saars from the above info if brahmos was travelling at a higher altitude and then dipped low on the horizon then obviously there will be diffence in speed as the actual speed for mach 1 increases as it nears the ground....

So if we assume that it travelled at sea level then speed is 1225 km/h x 2 = 2450 km/hr in a min it will thus cover 40.83 kms so for 50km it will be <1.5 mins.

Alternatively if it travelled at >11000m for most of its journey then speed is 1062km/hr x 2 = 2124 km/hr in a min it will thus cover 35.4 km so for 50km it will still be < or equal to 1.5 mins.

Now lets assume that it travelled with a mixed approach going high and then dipped low towards the end run....

So I average the figure out for both the mach numbers at low and high altitude and get 1143km/hr x 2 = 2286 km/hr in a min it will thus cover 38.1km so for 50km again it will be <1.5 mins.

Lastly as Kailash pointed out it might not even have reached mach 2 completely and thus would explain that part of the journey would very likely have been covered at mach 1 and the rest of it between mach 1.5 and 2...

I am guessing that the missile would have gained altitude when it was launched and then would have dipped low towards the end....
So:

- 2.5 mins is DDMitis and reported incorrectly...or they were given this info on purpose as DRDO might not want to release the actual time taken :?:
- We also need to take into consideration that yes the target was 50km but did the missile travel a straight line :?: Were there S shape zig zag dodging manouvers carried out if this was indeed the case then it would obviously have travelled more than 50km. :?:
- Also as Mr Kailash pointed out the missile would have reached mach 1 quite early and easily however it would taken quite longer or might not even have reached mach 2 (might have been just under) at all.
JMT

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby kobe » 05 Mar 2009 07:12

yumble reguest:

please don't throw overly simplistic calculations around as none of you (or me) was there, let the numbers come out from the horse's mouth. please no guestimates, guessing games, or guesswork. please provide info with references. and let gurus do the math.

it does not matter if the missile traveled for 2.5 minutes or 2 minutes or 1.8 minutes. as long as the scientists do the science and military does the killing, that will suffice just fine. they keep us arm chair internet experts safe at our computer tables and so we can eat our curry and surf the internet, does not mean we try to out-guess each other on missile travel trivia.

no use proving yourselves smarter than the news reporters

xie xie ni men

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SaiK » 05 Mar 2009 07:33

mr kobe.. if everything we have to hear is only thru the scientist, especially in strategic technology discussions, you are pretty much shunting off any one who wants know more or perhaps tries to understand.

no one is a born guru.. and imho, there is nothing wrong is postulation and trying to figure out if the ddm report is saying the right things etc.. as we all know how that works.

i'd see discussions be encouraged on the very same lines countering ddm, linking various articles, and perhaps going ahead adding few more of one's perceptions.

if we don't do these.. you can pretty guaranteed, no one will visit this thread.. if its just news and what ddm says that what the scientists says.., i (pretty much anyone) don't need BR at all.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby andy B » 05 Mar 2009 08:14

kobe wrote:yumble reguest:

please don't throw overly simplistic calculations around as none of you (or me) was there, let the numbers come out from the horse's mouth. please no guestimates, guessing games, or guesswork. please provide info with references. and let gurus do the math.

it does not matter if the missile traveled for 2.5 minutes or 2 minutes or 1.8 minutes. as long as the scientists do the science and military does the killing, that will suffice just fine. they keep us arm chair internet experts safe at our computer tables and so we can eat our curry and surf the internet, does not mean we try to out-guess each other on missile travel trivia.

no use proving yourselves smarter than the news reporters

xie xie ni men


Mr Kobe my only intent to do those "overtly simple" calculations was to learn a bit more and try and understand the figures stated. Obviously I am not as smart as you are and thus have to actually do these to understand it and the only reason I posted them was if someone else who again might not be as bright wanted to have a quick look at them to maybe draw a different conclusion or think of something thats been missed. I also acknowledge that there are a lot of other factors that need to be accounted for and have tried to jog some of them at the end of my post.

However from here on I will ensure that no "overtly simplistic" calculations are put on by me. Although you might need to get admins to put up a note to ensure that no one else does the same as well..... :)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby kobe » 05 Mar 2009 08:22

1) i had a yumble reguest only, heed - no heed, anyone can decide.
2) no one is implying that we should only post links to news articles
3) all the above overly simplistic calculations are FALSE, i know, but i can't tell you why
4) i can only request to focus on intent of the forum and you guys do / write whatever you want
5) yes, no one is a born guru and one way to become guru is to be humble, be quiet, and read a lot, memorize a lot, and if necessary ask questions, then contemplate, meditate, and then again read a lot, memorize a lot, all the while being humble and quiet.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby shyamd » 05 Mar 2009 08:58

New BrahMos test successful

T.S. Subramanian

CHENNAI: A new version of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile meant to attack a particular target out of a cluster on land was successfully tested at the Army’s range at Pokhran, Rajasthan, on Wednesday.

This was its 19th flight and the launch took place at 10.35 a.m. In its previous flight on January 20 it missed the target following a software glitch.

This variant is called the Block II version. BrahMos is essentially an anti-ship missile.

Informed sources described it as “a difficult mission” because the target was just 50 km away instead of the normal range of 290 km. Besides, the missile had to perform “a discriminatory role”: it had to hit the desired target out of a cluster of small targets, resembling “a factory-type situation.” The time given to the missile to perform manoeuvres and hit the target was much less than the normal flight. But these “constraints were overcome” with the Global Positioning System (GPS) update coming in correctly and the missile homed in on the desired target, sources said.

The missile flew at a velocity of Mach 2, twice the speed of sound. The normal version flies at Mach 3.

Last time the missile failed to hit the target as the GPS did not have time to correct the error in the inertial navigation system (INS). So the GPS update did not come in. This time, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) ensured that even if the GPS update did not flow in, the missile would hit the target. Modifications were made in the software and simulation runs conducted.

The launch met different mission requirements.


Naval rockets and mortar on a different front
R. Krishnamoorthy

Products project capacity of HAPP to diversify operations

— Photo: M. Moorthy.

DISPLAY: R. R. Yadava (right), General Manager, HAPP, explaining features of an snti-submarine naval rocket in Tiruchi on Wednesday.

TIRUCHI: Naval rockets, anti-tank ammunition, mortar for use by Infantry, and components for Agni and Prithvi missiles were among the products that were on display at an exhibition conducted by HAPP (Heavy Alloy Penetrator Project) on Wednesday, as part of its Silver Jubilee Celebrations.

The main attractions of the photo-cum-product exhibition were the Anti-Submarine Naval Rocket RGB - 12, which is currently under trials, and the RGB 60 Anti-Submarine Rocket that is under production with indigenous research and development back up. These rockets, which were imported so far, carry war head masses of 34 kg and 25 kg respectively. The target range of the former is 1.48 km while that of the latter ranges between 350 metres and 5.8 km.

Also on display were 125 mm FSAPDS anti-tank ammunition with a range of 3.4 km and muzzle velocity of 1,500 to 1,550 metres per second, and 125 mm APFSDS IMI MK - 1 Anti tank ammunition with range of 4 km and muzzle velocity of 1,660 metres per second. It has been tested against modern targets and has shown excellent results, HAPP officials said.

The smaller products being manufactured by the HAPP includes WHA granules and balancing weight for Hindustan Aeronautics Limited; oscillating weight for HMT Bangalore; 2.8 mm cubes for Pinaka Rocket, and components for Agni and Prithvi missiles.

The HAPP General Manager R.R. Yadava explained the properties of the products to the chief guest, Subash Chander, Member, Ordnance Factory Board soon after the Silver Jubilee Commemoration at the Main Gate and floating of balloons. Additional General Managers M.K. George Kutty and P.R. Sudhakar and other senior officials accompanied the chief guest. These products project the capacity of the HAPP to diversify operations in accordance with the changing requirements of the country’s armed forces. Transformation of the HAPP into a multi-product manufacturing unit during its 25 years of existence is a matter of immense pride for employees, according to N. Dhanasekar, Member, Publicity Committee.

Several Hundreds of photos were displayed under different sections including sports, social activities, women’s welfare association, quality month, VIP visits and old memories.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby k prasad » 05 Mar 2009 09:46

Sanku wrote:There does appear to be a new seeker in Block II; it is possible that there is only software correction in blockII test 1 and block II test 2, but block II probably had a new seeker and new software both to increase its lethality

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/brahmos-miss ... 761-3.html

"The new seeker system is unique and it will help us to hit the targets, which may be insignificant in terms of size, in a cluster of large buildings. We are the only nation having this advanced technology," they claimed.


The new "seeker" actually refers to the algorithm... the language used when I asked the ppl was the same, but when asked if it was new hardware also, or new software, the answer was quite clear...

The SCAN Algorithm CORRELATES between radar seeker data and the reference image. Given that for targetting, etc, we'll definitely need sensor data anyway, I think the source of the reference radar image should be clear.

However, a new seeker (hardware) is indeed being jointly developed between India and Russia for the BrahMos, but not for Block II.


nrshah wrote:Read somewhere (on BR itself - I think it was rakall or k prasad) that Brahmos range is restricted to 290kms only via software. Actual max range is substantially higher. So the day the GoI decides to give the MTCR the one finger salute, the Brahmos will be hitting targets much deeper in Puke territory.

Also, When they are talking of hypersonic version, range of only 300 kms does seem feasible. As the job can be done by supersonic version with precision, why use hypersonic version which will be costlier.

-Nitin


Yup... actual nominal range is 298 km.. talk of one finger salutes!! :D

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby vavinash » 05 Mar 2009 10:03

Jay, yes the morons can easily determine by now if the target was destroyed or not. Frankly I am sure there IQ's are far far lower than the scientists. How much time does it take to ensure the target has been hit? The kind of statement they released only damages the morale of the scientists. A barely competent person would have worded it as "Yes the target has been hit but we would like to make sure that the flight went as expected and all parameters will be studied in detail".

The 150 sec would fit the bill if Mach 2 was the fastest it traveled and not the speed throughout. Also it would include the time for vertical launch etc.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 05 Mar 2009 10:11

They're looking for ways to call it a failure! Old habits die hard!!

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 05 Mar 2009 11:04

SaiK wrote:
http://deccanherald.com/Content/Mar52009/national20090305122126.asp The missile “took two-and-a half-minutes to strike its target in the Pokhran firing range in Rajasthan,” ...“The new seeker system is unique and it will help us to hit the targets, which may be insignificant in terms of size, in a cluster of large buildings. We are the only nation having this advanced technology,”


btw, 2 1/2 min per this report.. and the earlier TSS news says 50 km away. had it been 300 km, meaning for this time it near 2 km/sec. if its only 50kms, then it took about .33km/sec [=> 33 m /s] !?.

now, at a google level mach conversion, it would be [mach 2 = 680.58 m / s].. something i am not getting.
Cain Marko wrote:I think it makes sense. Mach 1 = 1000kmph right? So @ M2, you have 2000 km for 60 minutes approx. For 1 minute, its 33km @ m2, 2 minutes should be 50 odd km (since its not exactly 2000km). Whats to not understand? Or am i missing something?

USS.

Did any one ask if the missile was shot straight to target?
or did it first make a detour to check out the brown pants in GHQ/pindi before hitting La-Hore? After all its is only a little walk away.

When DRDO says 2 1/2 minute, 150 seconds it is. No matter crow flight distance to target was 50 km or 100 Km.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 05 Mar 2009 11:07

ramana wrote:And the more difficult mission short range was proofed first. The longer range one should be easier.

Very true.

So TSP cant keep their battlefield chotus anymore in the field.
Again very true.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SKrishna » 05 Mar 2009 12:00

Arun Saar

I am still waiting for your promised article on Shaurya (or have I missed it?)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 05 Mar 2009 13:08

ramana wrote:with the Global Positioning System (GPS) update coming in correctly and the missile homed in on the desired target,[/b] sources said.

Last time the missile failed to hit the target as the GPS did not have time to correct the error in the inertial navigation system (INS). So the GPS update did not come in. This time, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) ensured that even if the GPS update did not flow in, the missile would hit the target. Modifications were made in the software and simulation runs conducted.



Dr Pillai have mentioned in very clear terms that Indian Missile do not depend on GPS , and it was also denied that GPS was a problem in last failure ( when we do not depend on GPS signals than it was never a problem )

Now they tell us that missile received GPS signal and even if missile did not received GPS signal it would hit the target.

So what is the factual position , do our missile depend in any small way on GPS signal or not , if they indeed do that doesnt it contradicts what Pillai stated that we dont.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby k prasad » 05 Mar 2009 13:17

Austin wrote:Dr Pillai have mentioned in very clear terms that Indian Missile do not depend on GPS , and it was also denied that GPS was a problem in last failure ( when we do not depend on GPS signals than it was never a problem )

Now they tell us that missile received GPS signal and even if missile did not received GPS signal it would hit the target.

So what is the factual position , do our missile depend in any small way on GPS signal or not , if they indeed do that doesnt it contradicts what Pillai stated that we dont.


Very Chankian onlee Austin - we DO NOT DEPEND ON GPS != Do not have GPS :lol: :lol: :lol:

Per my info, the latest has both GPS and GLONASS input for the turn maneuver control... if one does not give signal, another one will... when IRNSS comes, that will also give the signal. so yes, we do not depend on only GPS for it to work. :D

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby krishnan » 05 Mar 2009 13:22

GPS did not have time to correct the error in the inertial navigation system (INS).

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Singha » 05 Mar 2009 13:40

we dont get the 1m accuracy mil grade signal on encrypted channel, just the civilian channel. so it can be depended on only to get into general area not for taking out precision targets.
unkil can also degrade the signal or shut down the sats in the periods of time they are in our range at will in a time of war to help the munna.
I wouldnt trust Rus too much either....

better to put out a little constellation of our own to cover asia.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 05 Mar 2009 13:44

k prasad wrote:Per my info, the latest has both GPS and GLONASS input for the turn maneuver control... if one does not give signal, another one will... when IRNSS comes, that will also give the signal. so yes, we do not depend on only GPS for it to work. :D


Look we cant have two contradicting positions

DRDO ie DR Pillai clearly mentioned that we do not depend on GPS signal for our missiles , so its a clear statement which has no ambiguity.

Now reports tell us that this time GPS worked as expected and more ever if GPS updates dont come in DRDO has made some software (?)updates where the missile would still hit the target.

So what is the factual position ? I am more keen to believe Dr Pillai statement that we do not depend on GPS signal , the rest is just a media creation or deliberate confusion created.

GLONASS is still some time to go before it can become as reliable as GPS for Global Operation , which will happen in 2010 ~ 2012 , right not GLONASS works well only in Russian territory , so we can rule out GLONASS.

See depending on GPS has its own pitfall , they might just shut it off in a specific zone at the time of war or worst may just give erroneous signals , more ever it is not difficult to jam GPS signal in case of war as was shown in Kosovo , so the enemy might resort to GPS jamming.

So in every scenario relying on GPS signals for strategic/sub strategic missile is questionable , unless you have a real alternative operational which is GLONASS or IRNSS.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby kobe » 05 Mar 2009 14:13

Austin wrote:
k prasad wrote:Per my info, the latest has both GPS and GLONASS input for the turn maneuver control... if one does not give signal, another one will... when IRNSS comes, that will also give the signal. so yes, we do not depend on only GPS for it to work. :D


Look we cant have two contradicting positions

DRDO ie DR Pillai clearly mentioned that we do not depend on GPS signal for our missiles , so its a clear statement which has no ambiguity....


there is nothing contradictory,

"we don't depend on GPS" could very well mean:

- GPS will be used (if available)
- GLOSSNASS will be used (if available)
- IRNSS will be used (if available)
- Cellphone Triangulation will be used (if available)
- Mushi butt recognition will be used (if available)

(it uses TCXOs with stability of 10E-31 ppm if sat signal goes awry, presuming the remaining pathway is on a straight line, once locked, and halfway down, unkil can take the GPS and shove it, B'MOS will still hit the target)

Dr. Pillai would used some chanakian yinglish and said "we don't depend on GPS" he did not say "we don't use GPS"

Summary: believe whatever you want to believe, but when they press the button on brahmos, its gonna take out a lot of musharraffs


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