Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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ramana
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Mar 2009 04:02

He is being sarcastic.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby tejas » 12 Mar 2009 07:43

Perhaps Arun garu can clarify this for me but I am at a loss to see the advantage of having a liquid fuel interceptor ( PAD) rather than a solid fuel one (AAD, PAC-3, THAAD, S300, Arrow2). With the Prithvi production line being shut down what gives?

Grasshopper awaits enlightenment from the master :!: BTW Arun garu, I usually read each of your posts three times to make sure I didn't miss anything the first two times.

Your article on Shourya was, as usual, oustanding. I only hope a laser inertial confinement facility can be built to confirm functioning of our TN weapons as outright testing, I fear, will be politically/economically impossible for quite some time.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby disha » 12 Mar 2009 08:50

tejas wrote:... I am at a loss to see the advantage of having a liquid fuel interceptor ( PAD) rather than a solid fuel one (AAD, PAC-3, THAAD, S300, Arrow2).


Tejas, which part of the PAD interceptor is liquid fuel? We can carry out the rest of the conversations in ABM thread.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Vipul » 12 Mar 2009 19:36

BrahMos II missile has 2013 date.

The GenNext BrahMos II hypersonic missile is likely to be ready by 2013, according to BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited's chief executive and managing director A Shivthanu Pillai.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation's (DRDO) chief controller of research and development was speaking to reporters after his lecture at the Vishwakarma Institute of Technology (VIT) in the city on Tuesday.

Pillai said BrahMos Aerospace has started working on an advanced version of the missile to prepare India for creating a defence system for cruise missiles (DDM ?)

Future wars will be fought with minimum manpower, but with high-powered weapons. "It will be network-centric and fought with intelligent systems," he said.Cyber warfare and robotic systems will dominate the battlefield, he added.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 12 Mar 2009 22:02

Vipul wrote:[url=http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1238287]Pillai said BrahMos Aerospace has started working on an advanced version of the missile to prepare India for creating a defence system for cruise missiles (DDM ?).

No sir that is not DDM, he is right on spot.

While cruise missiles defense system is largly pivitoed on an effective CM detection system; in terms of CM interceptor, the best type of interceptor propulsion for the purpose is RAM jet, thus a Akash type solid fueled ramjet or BrahMos style liquid fuel ramjet are equally competent.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 12 Mar 2009 22:14

Arun,

wot is the relativity between CM and typical RV`s of a BM in terms of dodging capabilities?

The life of a cruise missile itself is entirely dependent on the level it was being detected/tracked , where as an RV is 180 deg diff to the above equation.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 12 Mar 2009 22:25

jaladipc wrote:Arun,

wot is the relativity between CM and typical RV`s of a BM in terms of dodging capabilities?

The life of a cruise missile itself is entirely dependent on the level it was being detected/tracked , where as an RV is 180 deg diff to the above equation.

RV and CM are not manned crafts with radars to be able to detect an incoming interceptor and start dodging maneuvers. They are unmanned robos that are trying to flying a pre-programmed trajectory.

The more zig zagged pre-programmed trajectory they try to follow the lesser is the range and accuracy from its INS system, apart from impact on RF signature.

In the case of a subsonic CM, dodging doesn't pay against an interceptor that is 2 times its own speed.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 12 Mar 2009 22:44

Arun_S wrote:the best type of interceptor propulstion for the purpose is RAM jet, thus a Akash type solid fuelled ramjet or BrahMos style liquide fuel ramjet are equally competent.


I wonder why DRDO is not focussing on building Ramjet propulsion based long range SAM , when its inherent advantage in dealing with Air Breathing type vehical is apparent.

Instead for next generation of Naval and Airforce SAM we went the Israel route and opted for Barak-8 which has all solid fuel propulsion.

Naval SAM in our context will be mostly dealing with Air breathing type targets on the higher threshold supersonic missile and advanced combat aircraft , for which a ramjet propulsion with its inherent advantage in weight/volume and powered all the way flight would have been of good advantage.

I would have expected DRDO to build upon Akash success and go for a long range variant for a Naval/Airforce variant.

The only reason I can think of why we could have opted for Israel route for Barak-8 is perhaps some good ABM capability that would come with it , but could AAD have served better then on Naval ships ?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Mar 2009 22:53

Austin, Try to find out how much of the Brahmos is being built in India.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 12 Mar 2009 22:58

Austin,
there is a trade off between solid fueled ramjet and all solid rocket propulsion systems.
while the former has a disadvantage in terms of weight and range for the similar sized rocket propulsion system.and cost itself is another issue.

If people are OK with these tradeoffs then ramjets can actually rule the world right from SAM`s, CM`s and AAM`s

U can see why meteor is costing a life hell no less than 1 million Euro while the similar capabilities embedded on simple rocket fueled Astra like system will cost as simple as 160K?
Arun_S wrote:
jaladipc wrote:Arun,

wot is the relativity between CM and typical RV`s of a BM in terms of dodging capabilities?

The life of a cruise missile itself is entirely dependent on the level it was being detected/tracked , where as an RV is 180 deg diff to the above equation.

RV and CM are not manned crafts with radars to be able to detect an incoming interceptor and start dodging maneuvers. They are unmanned robos that are trying to flying a pre-programmed trajectory.

The more zig zagged pre-programmed trajectory they try to follow the lesser is the range and accuracy from its INS system, apart from impact on RF signature.

In the case of a subsonic CM, dodging doesn't pay against an interceptor that is 2 times its own speed.

Then how do you consider the CM`s and some BM`s with conformal sensors all over its body to detect an incoming interceptor and dodge in the last millisecond, then again follow its predetermined trajectory/path?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 12 Mar 2009 23:08

I donno how gud is it to mention the name of the person ,
but a chanakya in DRDO himself mentioned that the later variants of Awill incorporate these conformal array of sensors on all three stages.Taking no chance from an incoming interceptor being a boost/mid/terminal phase interception.Or be it be an laser kill.the system itself will incorporate RWR`s,LWR`s, and IRWR`s and highly robust processor to do everything possible to get the missile into a safe trajectory to hit the same pre-destined location.And he did mentioned that the chanakyas themself are considering high volume missile(means highest possible range)to hit a target which is atmost 3/4 the range the missile can travel giving no chance to mid-phase interception.and the Avariant has already built in boot phase interception deflectors(donno wot he meant :-? )

So considering the tech we are incorporating into a desi mizzile, think abt the enemy himself who already started producing ICBM`sa way back.is our interceptors can consider a smooth way ahead?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ajay_ijn » 13 Mar 2009 07:57

Austin,
there is a trade off between solid fueled ramjet and all solid rocket propulsion systems.
while the former has a disadvantage in terms of weight and range for the similar sized rocket propulsion system.and cost itself is another issue.

If people are OK with these tradeoffs then ramjets can actually rule the world right from SAM`s, CM`s and AAM`s

U can see why meteor is costing a life hell no less than 1 million Euro while the similar capabilities embedded on simple rocket fueled Astra like system will cost as simple as 160K?

does this mean Akash will be also costly compared with Solid rocket SAMs or something specific to Meteor.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 13 Mar 2009 08:20

ajay_ijn wrote:
Austin,
there is a trade off between solid fueled ramjet and all solid rocket propulsion systems.
while the former has a disadvantage in terms of weight and range for the similar sized rocket propulsion system.and cost itself is another issue.

If people are OK with these tradeoffs then ramjets can actually rule the world right from SAM`s, CM`s and AAM`s

U can see why meteor is costing a life hell no less than 1 million Euro while the similar capabilities embedded on simple rocket fueled Astra like system will cost as simple as 160K?

does this mean Akash will be also costly compared with Solid rocket SAMs or something specific to Meteor.


It is costlier........no one attested that akash is a cheap system.BUT it is cheaper than the similar systems available world wide.

did you even wonder why we feel the warmth of brahmos?
no one is pointing to its price ,while a high level trading is happening between its price and its lethality together with its accuracy.If you want the best system, then you have to put more money on it-----no matter wot.......

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 13 Mar 2009 08:28

People are becoming so arrogant while talking about Brahmos-2
Not to mention brahmos-2 will cost our lives.and the deployment of such system in above modest numbers is like taking a grant from unkil.And its range is highly limited in regarding to the liquid H2 onboard.
People has to discount a lot while considering a scramjet based vehicle.fueling is a way risky than the normal liquid fuels(just becos H2 tops the lost of highly inflammables)And that too we have to work on it in cryo stage.enhanced costs.
I some how feel like fielding a hypersonic bomber(unmanned) is far better than fielding a hypersonic cruise missile.At least we can recover the cost in relaunching the bomber again and again.We as yindoos have to give value to each and every paise...isnt it?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby negi » 13 Mar 2009 08:30

Merits of RAM jet notwithstanding at the end of the day it is an air breathing missile, hence there are limitations on the max altitude these missiles can operate in; and that is why Arun's emphasis on RAM jet powered SAM's against CM's and UAV/manned aircraft.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 13 Mar 2009 08:50

I am not sure if ramjet will cost any thing more or any thing less than a solid propulsion system.

I think is designing is a challenge when developing such ramject system , but I am not sure of production cost is any thing more than a solid fuel missile.

It is the electronics that goes into the missile that makes it costly.

The whole USP of Akash was a SAM which was to be cost effective and can be mass produced.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby abhik » 13 Mar 2009 16:52

ramana wrote:
Arun_S wrote:The following two articles were printed in latest Indian Defense Review magazine (Lancer Publishaers), these articles are currently hosted by India Research Foundation as PDF file.

Shourya / Sagarika Missile

and

Way To A Credible Nuclear Deterrent



Very good articles Arun. Hope they find a large readership. Do the webmasters have a hit counter at the site?

Cant say much about "a large readership" caus the site is still unaccessible , is it hosted some where else too or is there any other way that I can read it?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Avinash R » 13 Mar 2009 17:37

abhik wrote:Cant say much about "a large readership" caus the site is still unaccessible , is it hosted some where else too or is there any other way that I can read it?

Alternate download link for the pdf file.
Shourya / Sagarika Missile
http://www.mediafire.com/?nrkbjx0tj1j

Dont have the other file on nuclear deterrent.
Others who have downloaded may kindly upload and provide a link.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby shynee » 13 Mar 2009 17:52

Avinash,

Check this out
http://rapidshare.com/files/208708496/WayToACredibleDeterrent.pdf.html

Avinash R wrote:
abhik wrote:Cant say much about "a large readership" caus the site is still unaccessible , is it hosted some where else too or is there any other way that I can read it?

Alternate download link for the pdf file.
Shourya / Sagarika Missile
http://www.mediafire.com/?nrkbjx0tj1j

Dont have the other file on nuclear deterrent.
Others who have downloaded may kindly upload and provide a link.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Avinash R » 13 Mar 2009 18:13

^Thanks shynee. Very helpful.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 13 Mar 2009 20:34

Now that folks have it, how about feedback?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 13 Mar 2009 21:00

Here is the file on Nuclear Deterrent
Way To A Credible Deterrent- Rev 3C2.pdf

And the Shourya/Sagarika Missile
Shourya_missile_article_for_IDR-rev3A1a_03Jan09 Final.pdf

Feedback/critique welcome.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby tejas » 13 Mar 2009 21:08

Both the Shourya/Sagarika and Nuclear deterrent articles IMHO were extrememly well written and informative. I think the take home message must be that if the next GOI does not quickly build ICFs to guarantee reliability of lightweight TNs, the action must be considered nothing short of treason.

We cannot wait 20 yrs. until the the 3rd stage of our nuclear program frees us from the cluthches of the NSG. Moreover, once 4th generation ( fissionless) TNs arrive, I fear Unkil will force us into a FMCT and permanent nuclear inferiority/servitude.

P.S. A tiny nitpick/query. The wt of the TN bum next to its diagram says ~ 270 kg. Just below the diagram the wt is listed as ~340 kg. Which is the correct figure ?
Last edited by tejas on 13 Mar 2009 21:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SaiK » 13 Mar 2009 21:12

arun saab, before a look detail into your docs, may we know the target audience and the intended message you wanted to deliver to them, so that when one reads your docs, we could keep a tab on those aspects.

great efforts, btw.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 13 Mar 2009 21:18

The target audience is Indian policymakers, political analysts, strategists, GoI bureaucracy and military. For foreign audience it strives to convey Indian objective, posture and viewpoint.

For the Shourya article the target audience is Indian and foriegn political analysts, strategists and military.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 13 Mar 2009 21:20

tejas wrote:P.S. A tiny nitpick/query. The wt of the TN bum next to its diagram says ~ 270 kg. Just below the diagram the wt is listed as ~340 kg. Which is the correct figure ?

That is because bum and RV-warhead are 2 different things.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby tejas » 13 Mar 2009 21:24

That is because bum and warhead are 2 different things.


Ah so :oops:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 13 Mar 2009 22:18

tejas wrote:Both the Shourya/Sagarika and Nuclear deterrent articles IMHO were extrememly well written and informative. I think the take home message must be that if the next GOI does not quickly build ICFs to guarantee reliability of lightweight TNs, the action must be considered nothing short of treason.

We cannot wait 20 yrs. until the the 3rd stage of our nuclear program frees us from the cluthches of the NSG. Moreover, once 4th generation ( fissionless) TNs arrive, I fear Unkil will force us into a FMCT and permanent nuclear inferiority/servitude.

P.S. A tiny nitpick/query. The wt of the TN bum next to its diagram says ~ 270 kg. Just below the diagram the wt is listed as ~340 kg. Which is the correct figure ?


If you have been following the Strat and Tech forums you will find that the meltdown has reduced such freedom of action globally. However the only ones who will cap India are its leaders not anyone else. It might not be blatant but might come to that. Hope for Swiss meltdown.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ticky » 13 Mar 2009 22:52

@ Arun_S.

Reg: Way to a credible deterrent

Insightful article. Highly educational to an layman like yours truly. Thank you
Could you do a follow up on the article on these lines, atleast for BR consumption.
1. Minimum no. of nukes required using only proven design under the three risk scenario in the article
2. Minimum no. of nukes required using both proven & high confidence designs
3. Fissile Material stockpile to be maintain to bulk up nuke inventory from one risk scenario to another in the short to medium term assuming that we are maintaining a weapon stockpile for low risk scenario only.

Point 1 & 2, the minimum required taking into consideration the number likely to be destroyed in a first strike.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby tejas » 13 Mar 2009 23:59

ramana wrote: If you have been following the Strat and Tech forums you will find that the meltdown has reduced such freedom of action globally. However the only ones who will cap India are its leaders not anyone else. It might not be blatant but might come to that. Hope for Swiss meltdown.


Ramana garu, I still remember the MPs tripping over themselves trying to touch the divine hand of Slick Willie (Bill Clinton) when he visited India during sanctions he imposed on India. India has been punching under its weight for the last 5,000 years.

With the possibility of Mayawati becoming PM can you still assuage my fears?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 14 Mar 2009 23:33

GLONASS Coverage

This is an nice image of the current GLONASS coverage around the world , it seems the Indian region has atleast 2 to 3 satellites visible , good enough to get Navigation updates for INS ?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 15 Mar 2009 01:30

Austin wrote:GLONASS Coverage

This is an nice image of the current GLONASS coverage around the world , it seems the Indian region has atleast 2 to 3 satellites visible , good enough to get Navigation updates for INS ?


Actually that looks pretty poor from an Indian point of view. It surprising to see better coverage for Africa than the subcontinent and the middle east. I'm tempted to believe this was intentional.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby namit k » 15 Mar 2009 01:47

Arun_S wrote:
tejas wrote:P.S. A tiny nitpick/query. The wt of the TN bum next to its diagram says ~ 270 kg. Just below the diagram the wt is listed as ~340 kg. Which is the correct figure ?

That is because bum and RV-warhead are 2 different things.

arun sir good job ,

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby John » 15 Mar 2009 02:34

Arun_S wrote:
Vipul wrote:[url=http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1238287]Pillai said BrahMos Aerospace has started working on an advanced version of the missile to prepare India for creating a defence system for cruise missiles (DDM ?).

No sir that is not DDM, he is right on spot.

While cruise missiles defense system is largly pivitoed on an effective CM detection system; in terms of CM interceptor, the best type of interceptor propulsion for the purpose is RAM jet, thus a Akash type solid fueled ramjet or BrahMos style liquid fuel ramjet are equally competent.

But for CM isn't it better to use smaller SAMs something along the lines of VL-Mica, Akash was not design for low altitude intercept and requires radar guidance. Something IR or Active seeker based missile will not be limited to, useful especially in urban areas.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby kobe » 15 Mar 2009 05:19

There is still controversy brewing regarding the 2nd Brahmos missile test.

Is it fair to deduce the following?

1) Brahmos did hit the target at 50Km range
2) Army thinks that Brahmos technicians probably cheated (for example entered the exact location of the target, instead of letting the missile software id the target among a clutter of buildings)
3) There seems to be a controversy as to what exactly is the level of intelligence in the system (confusion in target discrimination capability)
4) Army wants a magic solution, and DRDO wants to sell what is already available, with promise of future improvements

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Guddu » 15 Mar 2009 06:26

deleted
Last edited by Guddu on 15 Mar 2009 07:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sarang » 15 Mar 2009 06:44

or is there full coverage over Rus and US?
I think number of visible satallites for earth points means more coverage.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 15 Mar 2009 06:50

Austin wrote:GLONASS Coverage

This is an nice image of the current GLONASS coverage around the world , it seems the Indian region has atleast 2 to 3 satellites visible , good enough to get Navigation updates for INS ?


Indian region may have that number of satellites visible at one point in time, (Moscow time 23:59:10 24/11/2008) as indicated in the picture. This availability will change as the satellites geometry changes with the orbital motion of the satellites. These are not geo stationary communication satellites that will remain fixed in space from an earth based reference frame.

This partial availability of satellites is only because the glonass constellation is not completely deployed yet.

As the full Glonass constellation is put into orbit, availability over India and other regions of the world will increase, both in satellite count and also over periods of time.

As with GPS, you need at least 4 Glonass Satellites to get a good position fix.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Katare » 15 Mar 2009 06:51

Sarang is right!

They have more coverage on the area of threat/interest.

We kind loose out on that

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Victor » 15 Mar 2009 08:41

Yup. GLONASS shows full coverage for all areas with lesser coverage in Indian Subcontinent, Middle East and South Pacific region. The colors are a little misleading--lighter color means more coverage.


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