Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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nrshah
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby nrshah » 15 Mar 2009 10:23

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=10691

Dispute over BrahMos field trial continues


NEW DELHI: It has been more than a week since a new version of supersonic cruise missile was test-fired but the Army is still to make up its mind on whether it was successful or not.

The result of the test carried out at the Army’s Pokhran field firing range in Rajasthan on March 4 is still being evaluated, said officials. Even as Brah- Mos Aerospace officials have claimed that the missile achieved the desired results during the trial, the Army still maintains that it is evaluating the general staff quality requirements.

The dispute over the trial result has only widened the rift between the Army and the scientific establishment. The BrahMos officials claim that the missile had hit the target within the error probability.

The Army claims that since it is going to be the end-user, it should be fully satisfied whether the weapon system
is capable of delivering as per its requirements.

This was the second test of the missile after a trial conducted in January had failed.

The Army wanted the cruise missile to identify and hit a target among a group of objects. In the first test, the missile had completely failed and the scientists blamed it on a defect in the homing software which was being used for the first time.

BrahMos has a range of 290 km but the new version is being tested in a short range scenario. The missile was assigned to hit the target within a distance of around 40 km. It becomes more challenging to guide the supersonic missile within a short distance. The duration of the test was a mere 150 seconds.

The difference of opinion between the Army and the BrahMos Aerospace, a joint venture of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Russian Federal Unitary Enterprise, has added to the widening rift between the developer and the end-user.

It has opened the debate in the defence establishment over the quality of indigenous weapons systems being developed by DRDO. The Army still has problems with the main battle tank Arjun.

It came to a point when the entire project was close to being scrapped till it was revived by the personal intervention of Defence Minister A K Antony.


The Air Force is not satisfied with the home built Light Combat Aircraft.


The scientific establishment feels that there is a lobby within the Armed Forces that prefers to go for foreign equipment.








If the issue is with scientific establishment, I am surprised to see that Indian navy is not in the list. The proportion of Indigenous component is highest in Navy and it does not have issues unlike Army and Airforce

-Nitin

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 15 Mar 2009 10:27

ticky wrote:@ Arun_S.

Reg: Way to a credible deterrent

Insightful article. Highly educational to an layman like yours truly. Thank you
Could you do a follow up on the article on these lines, atleast for BR consumption.
1. Minimum no. of nukes required using only proven design under the three risk scenario in the article
2. Minimum no. of nukes required using both proven & high confidence designs
3. Fissile Material stockpile to be maintain to bulk up nuke inventory from one risk scenario to another in the short to medium term assuming that we are maintaining a weapon stockpile for low risk scenario only.

Point 1 & 2, the minimum required taking into consideration the number likely to be destroyed in a first strike.

Saar: Dhanyavad.
This nacheez does not have enough hours in a day to do what he need to do.
So I suggest stay tuned on BRF threads and some wise men will sometime, put in their thoughts and reasons.

As the Yindoo "Puran"s say: "Be a seeker and you will find what you seek".

Western originals of world knowledge say in one of the the scriptures: "Seek and you shall get" or something to that effect.

"Iswar Kay Vidhan Ki Jai Ho" !!

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 15 Mar 2009 10:36

John wrote:But for CM isn't it better to use smaller SAMs something along the lines of VL-Mica, Akash was not design for low altitude intercept and requires radar guidance. Something IR or Active seeker based missile will not be limited to, useful especially in urban areas.

Its losing proposition to try to intercept CM in LoS interception. (will need too many missile batteries). So IR seeker based missile are useless. Short range missiles have same issue.

CM defense requires a different detection and guidance, no matter the propulsion used. For affordable overall cost, medium range interceptors are good fit. And for that purpose RAMjet propulsion IMHO is most apt.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby geeth » 15 Mar 2009 10:48

>>>If the issue is with scientific establishment, I am surprised to see that Indian navy is not in the list. The proportion of Indigenous component is highest in Navy and it does not have issues unlike Army and Airforce

I feel it is an article for Psy-ops. They keep repeating the same theme to see if someone comes out in the open ridiculing them. Looks like Unkeel is keen to know about the result, 'cause their chamcha is going to hit badly. May be the scientific / Army establishments are more careful in releasing the data this time.

I personally feel that it is not so good an idea to publish every details of every test that is being conducted or weapons developed. Just release a general press release, that too days or weeks after the test.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 15 Mar 2009 10:59

nrshah wrote:The dispute over the trial result has only widened the rift between the Army and the scientific establishment. The BrahMos officials claim that the missile had hit the target within the error probability.

The Army claims that since it is going to be the end-user, it should be fully satisfied whether the weapon system
is capable of delivering as per its requirements.

... . . . The difference of opinion between the Army and the BrahMos Aerospace, a joint venture of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Russian Federal Unitary Enterprise, has added to the widening rift between the developer and the end-user.

It has opened the debate in the defence establishment over the quality of indigenous weapons systems being developed by DRDO. The Army still has problems with the main battle tank Arjun.

It came to a point when the entire project was close to being scrapped till it was revived by the personal intervention of Defence Minister A K Antony.


The Air Force is not satisfied with the home built Light Combat Aircraft.


The scientific establishment feels that there is a lobby within the Armed Forces that prefers to go for foreign equipment.

If the issue is with scientific establishment, I am surprised to see that Indian navy is not in the list. The proportion of Indigenous component is highest in Navy and it does not have issues unlike Army and Airforce

-Nitin

Nitin see my observations that I am cross posting from AEW&C News & Discussion thread:
George J wrote:
p_saggu wrote:The phalcon will serve as an airborne controller directing aircraft to their targets and have an overall battle field awareness......


EXACTLY. There seem to be an impression on the new and improved BRF that its some sort of airborne radar that will detect a/c taking off from country A etc. If that's all it did it would be ASP not an AWACS. The PHALCON and the CABS AEW (eventually) are going to be a airborne data center. The onboard AESA is just one piece of h/w that will collect data, it will have access to SEVERAL DATA SOURCES. Using some very advanced estrogen driven IT-Vity :D the a/c will collect, analyze, prioritize and instruct any asset capable of exploiting the data.

This is where the rubber meets the road, with no standardized datalinks no airborne asset can fully utilize all the info that a Phalcon can pump out (which is why the datalinks on the MKI become irrelevant, it has to be something that works across the board). That's the hardware issues....like I said please keep an eye out for it in AI09.

Now the operational issue, that bit about analyzing and prioritizing and instructing has a huge human element. So now the IAF has to figure out if it needs a Sq.L, GC or higher in the Executive Chair on the aircraft and in AHQ.

Finally, since we have already sacrificed our cojones at the alter of travel advisories we are not going to have tea at RYK anytime soon and we need at least 3 Phalcons, common datalinks and airborne management experience to really deploy the AWACS maybe the next time the al-keedas kills a couple of 100 people in prime time we "might" be ready to actually use the AWACS.

George J: You said my piece of mind.
Little bird sang in my ears many years ago how pathtic the IAF situation is and PHALCON was already being built at that time. This "naa-cheez" tried forewarning this issue to em, but obviously much water has flown down Ganga river, IAF is blissfully at peace, awaiting deliverance by fighter jockeys.

Why bother with radar-shadaar. RF waves can't meet the force of cold lead from MKI's guns. With officers posted out of responsibility every 4 years at Vayu Bhawan, who has the mission, balls and brains to make IAF's combat network system architecture, much less a network that will be able to talk to Gernails (sic) and Colonels of Indian Army on ground?

Just do as the Roman's do. Get your pay, make babies and chase girls, that is good life. War fighting, leave that to politicians, and there will be no war. Then why bother sharpening the axe?

I say idiots tread where angles fear.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Baljeet » 15 Mar 2009 20:35

Arun Boss
Bahut Bahut Dhanyavaad. Yeh Nacheez bhi mahinoon sey yehi kah raha hai, professionalism is in free fall, there is no leadership or focus in military. Everyone is responsibile for this problem.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 15 Mar 2009 21:42

so my earlier rant was right. IA doesnt want this new upgrade in case they have to use it.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby vavinash » 15 Mar 2009 21:51

GOI just needs to create a missile force drawn from all 3 services that does not answer to army or navy but the Defence minister directly. Then simply take away all A-2/A-3's and Brahmos, prithvis from the army. They only have the IQ to stick with rifles and guns.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby abhik » 16 Mar 2009 19:21

ramana wrote:Now that folks have it, how about feedback?

nice article but a bit short , had sufficient technical details (some which is beyond my understanding and the speculation bit) , I feel there was'ent enough about how different it is wrt the agni series(mainly tech wise) ,what it brings to the table or how it can be used differently(silo launched etc).

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby somnath » 16 Mar 2009 20:08

vavinash wrote:GOI just needs to create a missile force drawn from all 3 services that does not answer to army or navy but the Defence minister directly. Then simply take away all A-2/A-3's and Brahmos, prithvis from the army. They only have the IQ to stick with rifles and guns.


A3/A2 are handled by the Strategic Forces Commnd, as are a lot of the Prthvis - SFC is a tri service org, reporting at least offficially to the Chairman COSC....In reality, the SFC has close oversight of the PM - the "real" orders ffor it will come frm the PM himself..

Prithvi (in conventional roles) and Brahmos are battlefied support weapons, and hence the services are always judging them from a cost effectiveness perspective....Especially something as expensive as Brahmos....

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 16 Mar 2009 21:28

From the Political Pulse section of Indian Express
http://epaper.indianexpress.com/IE/IEH/ ... ndex.shtml

Of misses and missile
AFTER a failed first test which was initially described and reported as a ‘success’ by DRDO, the Brahmos missile team has become more cautious. The results of the second test have not been shared more than a week since the trial took place in Pokharan. The reason being that the team wants to make sure that the Army is fully satisfied with the missile before DRDO goes public about its ‘success’. It appears to have learnt its lesson from the first time after a huge uproar occurred after it was revealed that the test failed. The Army, on its part, is waiting for a third trial before giving its opinion on the missile.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SaiK » 16 Mar 2009 22:10

Is Army participating as a stake holder in these trials? if its user trials, why is it DRDO on an r&d mode? Something is not correct the way DRDO-IA is managing an important missile defence system.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 16 Mar 2009 23:51

In some other post the cost escalation was attributed to the Russians asking for more and not due to DRDO contributions. So its a Brahmos Corp issues.

In other words if the IA wants more of these weapons, then they will have to pay more regardless of the DRDO enhancements. Or saying it differently the IA will get better weapons for the money they shellout. Its their choice- old weapons or improved ones for same money. There is no need to confuse the two issues- cost and performance. Some poor bean-counter was put in charge and trying to pretend he is a strategist.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Mar 2009 01:11

Arun_S wrote:
tsarkar wrote:This apparently seems to be the AAD seeker as per the datasheet

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... d.jpg.html

Image Courtesy P. Kartik Kumar

Does anyone have more information on this?

Correct.
I am disappointed they have put this out in public display.
Surely DRDO bums will expose other family jewels too and do the same for other strategic systems including THE bum :evil:



Arun, If you see page one of this thread you will see the seeker mounted on the PAD vehicle.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Kailash » 17 Mar 2009 01:23

How fair are these brahmos trials? We are testing a missle with 290Km range within a 50Km test range, simply due to the fact that DRDO doesn't have a larger land based test range.

Is the missile supposed to be deployed and operated at this small a range in actual war?
How does the shortened range after the missile ability to identify, lock-on and destroy the target?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Mar 2009 01:35

Kailash, 150km is considered forward edge of battle. So the tests are realistic. Besides in the short distance it is more challenging for the sensors to acquire the targets.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Kailash » 17 Mar 2009 01:44

so IA is justified in using the result of this test to discredit the missile, though it was aimed at a target 40km away(less than a third of 150km)?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Mar 2009 01:54

There is something else going on. Its not just the test. The second one is not being disputed.

I think there is a mispreception. The IA wants the terminal S manouver for all targets. For 40km range its very difficult as the turn radius at Mach 3 is quite large. And there was a report of Mach 2 being the vehicle velocity. Again I dont know if the vehicle can reach Mach 3 in 40 km range. So a few technical facts to sort out.

So IA thinks they are getting spun or being taken for a ride. So they want a third test. But unless the parameters are decided before its another futile bad blood issue. And press is ready to play up differences to make resolution and climbdown difficult.

Best option is let IA go its one way and fight with spears.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Mar 2009 02:09

A website with links on

Aircraft Design

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Mar 2009 02:27

Ok. One way is to estimate the run radius for the vehicle.

The simple backof envelope formula is the centripetal acceleration formula: Accel = V^2/Radius

or Radius = V^2/Accel

Plugging numbers for
1000 mph = 447 m/s, gives for 2 g a radius of ~10km
1500 mph = 671m/s, gives radius ~23 km
2100 mph = 939m/s, gives ~ 45 km

So to execute an S manouver at a range of ~ 50km the vehicle has to start turning after 5km and then execute its two turns to get to the target. And this is at a 2g level. The turns are tighter at 8 gs from 2.5 ~ 11km. So its doable if the vehicle is designed to such levels.

I think the third test will have the S turn if they want.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 17 Mar 2009 03:27

Next: Surveillance radars in space

INTERVIEW/DR V.K. SARASWAT, CHIEF CONTROLLER (MISSILE SYSTEMS), DRDO
The ballistic missile interceptor is Saraswat's latest baby. As DRDO's programme director, he had spearheaded the concept of theatre defence systems and the integration of national air defence elements. He was responsible for the induction of India's first surface-to-surface missile, Prithvi, and its variants in the armed forces. This year, he hopes to hold a combined test of blasting incoming enemy missiles inside and outside the atmosphere. Excerpts from an interview:

How important was the ballistic missile interceptor test?
With this test, India has acquired the capability of air defence against incoming ballistic missiles. Once you have a ballistic missile defence system, a country with a small arsenal will think twice before launching a nuclear attack.

What are the specific advantages of the interceptors?
This interceptor can destroy missiles with a 2,000km range. In phase-II, we are developing above 2,000km class. For tracking missiles with 6,000km range, the interceptors will be helped by radars on satellites. Currently, the radars can cover an area of a radius of 600km. You need much more energy for missiles of higher range. In terms of seeker, the time is very less as the speed of the missile also increases.

How fast can the interceptor detect and react to a hostile missile?
Target classification takes just 30 seconds. Then the batteries [of the interceptor missile], which are in hot stand-by conditions, can be launched within 100-120 seconds. So in simple terms, an interceptor takes two to three minutes to react and destroy a hostile missile.

How good is the interceptor missile compared to the American Patriot missile?
The US system is developed for their defence. The threat profile of our country is different and the system has to be customised to our needs. So we cannot compare the two.

When are you expecting to complete the project?
By 2011, we expect to complete the development of missile systems. We will be conducting five tests each for endo- and exo-atmospheric (below and above 30km altitude) and integrated missile defence systems. Once that is over, the missile will be ready for deployment.

What is the technological capability of the programmes?

The system is fully automated and does not require human activation in case of an attack. Under the present system, the interceptors are on 'hot stand-by mode' and can take-off within 120 seconds of the detection of the incoming missile.

Any upcoming programmes or tech upgradations?
Till the 1990s, the challenge was to meet the range and warhead carrying capacity for the missile. But from 2002 onwards, the focus has been on accuracy of hit or hit to kill. This requires special technologies such as infrared and radio frequency seekers embedded in the missiles with high precision homing devices. We also have plans for a space-based surveillance radar system which could track any missile.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 17 Mar 2009 04:32

ramana wrote:So to execute an S maneuver at a range of ~ 50km the vehicle has to start turning after 5km and then execute its two turns to get to the target. And this is at a 2g level. The turns are tighter at 8 gs from 2.5 ~ 11km. So its doable if the vehicle is designed to such levels.


Ramana,

The acceleration provided is dependent on the aerodynamics of the missile (unless it uses thrust vectoring as well) and for the Brahmos it might be a good idea not to exceed the value of vehicle angle of attack by more than several degrees above or below zero.

In any case, assuming a 11 Km turn radius at different Mach numbers, you end up with the following chart:
Image

The above chart explains using very basic assumptions where that Mach 2 number for the S turning maneuvers comes from.

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ajay_ijn » 17 Mar 2009 14:57

A Sharma wrote:Next: Surveillance radars in space

INTERVIEW/DR V.K. SARASWAT, CHIEF CONTROLLER (MISSILE SYSTEMS), DRDO
The ballistic missile interceptor is Saraswat's latest baby. As DRDO's programme director, he had spearheaded the concept of theatre defence systems and the integration of national air defence elements. He was responsible for the induction of India's first surface-to-surface missile, Prithvi, and its variants in the armed forces. This year, he hopes to hold a combined test of blasting incoming enemy missiles inside and outside the atmosphere. Excerpts from an interview:

How important was the ballistic missile interceptor test?
With this test, India has acquired the capability of air defence against incoming ballistic missiles. Once you have a ballistic missile defence system, a country with a small arsenal will think twice before launching a nuclear attack.

What are the specific advantages of the interceptors?
This interceptor can destroy missiles with a 2,000km range. In phase-II, we are developing above 2,000km class. For tracking missiles with 6,000km range, the interceptors will be helped by radars on satellites. Currently, the radars can cover an area of a radius of 600km. You need much more energy for missiles of higher range. In terms of seeker, the time is very less as the speed of the missile also increases.

How fast can the interceptor detect and react to a hostile missile?
Target classification takes just 30 seconds. Then the batteries [of the interceptor missile], which are in hot stand-by conditions, can be launched within 100-120 seconds. So in simple terms, an interceptor takes two to three minutes to react and destroy a hostile missile.

How good is the interceptor missile compared to the American Patriot missile?
The US system is developed for their defence. The threat profile of our country is different and the system has to be customised to our needs. So we cannot compare the two.

When are you expecting to complete the project?
By 2011, we expect to complete the development of missile systems. We will be conducting five tests each for endo- and exo-atmospheric (below and above 30km altitude) and integrated missile defence systems. Once that is over, the missile will be ready for deployment.

What is the technological capability of the programmes?

The system is fully automated and does not require human activation in case of an attack. Under the present system, the interceptors are on 'hot stand-by mode' and can take-off within 120 seconds of the detection of the incoming missile.

Any upcoming programmes or tech upgradations?
Till the 1990s, the challenge was to meet the range and warhead carrying capacity for the missile. But from 2002 onwards, the focus has been on accuracy of hit or hit to kill. This requires special technologies such as infrared and radio frequency seekers embedded in the missiles with high precision homing devices. We also have plans for a space-based surveillance radar system which could track any missile.

Somebody was talking about will India need something like Sea Based X-Band radar US developed. But from saraswat it does seem like we need detecting ranges much beyond 600km. Beyond 2000km class of weapons, its cleary meant for China.

Can OTH Radars be good in early warning of both ballistic missile and aircraft/cruise missiles?
How would Satellite based radars exactly work? i read about Satellites with IR Sensors detecting BMs in boost phase.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby shyamd » 17 Mar 2009 15:48

The satellite needs a land segment before you can make the system fully operational. So what the satellites do is detect an infra red signature of a missile lift off. The satellite will take a year to collect all the IR images of the earth and differentiate between natural stuff like volcano eruptions etc, from heat that could be generated by a missile to avoid false alarms.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ajay_ijn » 17 Mar 2009 15:55

shyamd wrote:The satellite needs a land segment before you can make the system fully operational. So what the satellites do is detect an infra red signature of a missile lift off. The satellite will take a year to collect all the IR images of the earth and differentiate between natural stuff like volcano eruptions etc, from heat that could be generated by a missile to avoid false alarms.

what about Radar? can they detect RF Signature and differentiate between RF Signature of BMs and other things from hundreds of kilometers away considering the space & power limitations in a Satellite.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Sontu » 17 Mar 2009 21:00

ajay_ijn wrote:
shyamd wrote:The satellite needs a land segment before you can make the system fully operational. So what the satellites do is detect an infra red signature of a missile lift off. The satellite will take a year to collect all the IR images of the earth and differentiate between natural stuff like volcano eruptions etc, from heat that could be generated by a missile to avoid false alarms.

what about Radar? can they detect RF Signature and differentiate between RF Signature of BMs and other things from hundreds of kilometers away considering the space & power limitations in a Satellite.


there are few OTH radars are operational like
US made ROTHR
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/airdef/an-tps-71.htm

and even few Russian, Australian and French ones as posted in Wiki.

But not sure if they can be used to EW and Track TBM/SRBM and IRBM s ?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 20 Mar 2009 05:01

From Deccan Chronicle Comment section: India needs an indigenous missile shield

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 25 Mar 2009 05:01


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Rahul Shukla » 25 Mar 2009 05:49

A Sharma wrote:Why BrahMos failed
The American satellites that run the GPS had been switched off on the day Barack Obama was sworn in the United States President, they said. The missile, therefore, travelled for 112 seconds instead of the slated 84 seconds and fell 7 km away from the target.
Officials of the DRDO described the January 20 mission as a difficult one because the target was just 50 km away instead of the normal 290 km. The missile, launched in a land-attack mode, had to hit a particular target out of a cluster of targets. The Army insisted that the error in hitting the target, which resembled a chemical weapons factory, could not exceed one metre. Reflectors had been installed to mislead the missile.

The DRDO, therefore, made a new seeker for the missile to meet this challenge. A software was developed with a new algorithm, which was to help the missile reach the target by using the GPS data obtained from the U.S. satellites.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby kittoo » 25 Mar 2009 06:46

I am sorry if what I am about to write isnt relevant or old.

Today there is news in our newspaper (Dainik Bhaskar to be precise) on the main page titled- 'Missile of doubt on defense pact' which says that there are questions on the pact for Barak missiles from Israel by UPA, costing about 10000Crore rs. So I searched the net and found these on the topic (sorry I am new to BR so dont if this was discussed)-

Barak Missile Controversy: Is the CBI crossing the line?- http://www.india-defence.com/reports/2598
Bribes threaten Indo-Israeli military ties- http://kumaraswamyjnu.blogspot.com/2008 ... itary.html

Indian weapons imports under the gun- http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HJ19Df03.html[/code]

All of these are old, with the latest of April 08. In the newspaper it says- exclusive report and that the deal was done just before the elections. It also says that indigenous Akash missile was sidelined in discussions and that not even bureaucrats but Army officers were given bribes too and they too lobbied for Barak. It was CBI who discovered this and all.

I dont get it, is there suddenly something new to the whole controversy? But I cant find anything on net, other than that we are already discussing about Army sidelining indigenous missiles.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sarang » 25 Mar 2009 07:23

I think you are talking about NDA not UPA who did not signed barak-1 deal. UPA is involved in Barak-8 or (whatever it may called) deal. and that deal costs Rs. 10,000 Cr ($ 2.5 Billion).

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby kittoo » 25 Mar 2009 07:59

sarang wrote:I think you are talking about NDA not UPA who did not signed barak-1 deal. UPA is involved in Barak-8 or (whatever it may called) deal. and that deal costs Rs. 10,000 Cr ($ 2.5 Billion).

No the newspaper clearly says UPA, thats why I am nonplussed.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 25 Mar 2009 09:01

So if American GPS satellite blinks in future , Brahmos will not suceed ? :-?

The report goes against what Dr Pillai mentioned recently , that none of our missile depends on GPS.

TSS is quite reliable , but the explaination offered that it failed because GPS blinked is hard to digest.

one interesting claim in the report is

Officials of the DRDO described the January 20 mission as a difficult one because the target was just 50 km away instead of the normal 290 km. The missile, launched in a land-attack mode, had to hit a particular target out of a cluster of targets. The Army insisted that the error in hitting the target, which resembled a chemical weapons factory, could not exceed one metre. Reflectors had been installed to mislead the missile.


The DRDO, therefore, made a new seeker for the missile to meet this challenge. A software was developed with a new algorithm, which was to help the missile reach the target by using the GPS data obtained from the U.S. satellites. The mission demanded that the missile’s inertial navigation system (INS), its GPS receiver and its seeker should all work together.


So now it is clear that its a New Seeker ( possibly MMW (?) ) and combination of New Algorithm with GPS inputs which makes this possible.

TSS says the 2nd Test was a success

ramana
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 25 Mar 2009 09:57

Austin, The DRDo folks are too clever for their own good. they spin so much one doesnt know where the real stuff begins. And thats the IA dilemma. And for their supporters too!

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SaiK » 25 Mar 2009 10:17

all these are fine, but what fails me to understand is this an user trial (acceptance) or product testing with the stake holder participation during some string testing, that is integrating with various sources and parameters, that perhaps needs IA's inputs/feeds.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Nihat » 25 Mar 2009 10:52

http://www.bharatrakshak.com/NEWS/newsr ... wsid=10718

New Delhi: On the eve of the general election, the UPA government has quietly signed a massive, legally opaque, Rs10,000 crore defence deal with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), ignoring a continuing probe by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) and initial vigilance concerns.
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The contract, to supply medium-range surface-to-air missiles (MRSAM), has raised worrying questions of propriety, with key bureaucrats and former defence officers playing influential roles in creating and pushing the deal through.

The deal, which was signed into a contract this month, comes at a time when India already possesses a more powerful missile in the same class --- the advanced air defence (AAD) missile, part of India's anti-ballistic missile shield.

DNA investigated the deal by accessing documents, tapping innumerable sources, and interviewing key military officers. A key point that emerged was that legal opinion did not conclusively favour the deal.

The deal, which is being kept under wraps, could sound the death-knell of the indigenous surface-to-air Akash missile system, into which hundreds of crores have been invested over the years. More importantly, the deal ignores the success of the AAD missile, which could be deployed as a surface-to-air missile and used exactly like the Israeli MRSAM.


Some rather confusing aspects on the article , it says that a contract worth Rs. 10,000 Cr. MR-SAM has been signed by UPA Govt. with an Israili firm and it could mean the death of Akash and ABM projects.

How is that connected is what I want to ask , Akash is a SR-SAM and ABM by it's name makes it obvious that it's designed for Ballistic missiles and MR-SAM's are incapable of shooting down such missiles

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby rakall » 25 Mar 2009 11:19

Nihat wrote:
Some rather confusing aspects on the article , it says that a contract worth Rs. 10,000 Cr. MR-SAM has been signed by UPA Govt. with an Israili firm and it could mean the death of Akash and ABM projects.

How is that connected is what I want to ask , Akash is a SR-SAM and ABM by it's name makes it obvious that it's designed for Ballistic missiles and MR-SAM's are incapable of shooting down such missiles



What it means is --- we have Akash SAM which is SA-SAM.. We also have AAD missile which is longer range SAM, albeit in ABM role.. all associated radars and command & sontrol structure for both systems are developed.. So.. Why cant we use AAD or a derivative of it as a MR-SAM or LR-SAM rather than going for a Israeli version of it..

Is there a way of "directly using OR modifying" AAD for Anti-aircraft and Anti-CM roles... Did GoI/MoD/Services give it a serious thought from the heart as well mind? Did they take up that idea with Saraswat & co OR Did Saraswat & co raise the possibility, if it exists, with the end-user?

Or did we simply hoodwink at any such possibility and fall flat for the lobby !!!!

And there in lies the difference between the people who rule China & India...

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby maz » 25 Mar 2009 12:09

People,

josy joseph's piece is full of erroneous info. Don't think he can ID a Barak missile even if his life depended on it. Look at what the paper passed off for a Barak LRSAM!! His knowledge of basic military weapons/systems is , shall we say, lacking at best.....in 2001, he could not tell the difference between a corvette, FFg and DDG!

Unfortunately, this type of bad reporting only causes problems for the armed forces.

I do not think Josy J understands the extent of Israeli involvement in military-aerospace programs in India.

Given DRDO's track record, and the complexity of the task at hand, can the Navy really afford to wait another 15-20 yrs to have an operationalized long range SAM system - be it AAD or navalized Akash? Besides, Akash is not really a LRRSAM.
And who is to say that AAD won't be converted to a navalized anti BMD weapon system?

Anyhow there are indications that LRSAM test firings should be taking place this year.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby narayana » 25 Mar 2009 12:25

Any news on Astra test on Sukhoi Platform?,it was scheduled for Jan 2009


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