Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby shiv » 25 Mar 2009 17:28

Nihat wrote:http://www.bharatrakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10718

New Delhi: On the eve of the general election, the UPA government has quietly signed a massive, legally opaque, Rs10,000 crore defence deal with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), ignoring a continuing probe by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) and initial vigilance concerns.


Er wasn't the P8 deal the most expensive so far at 8000 crores? You mean a bigger deal has been signed in secret.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 25 Mar 2009 20:35

An important fact from the TSS article is the IA requirement of CEP of 1 meter for the Brahmos Block II upgrade. This was met on the second test.

IA wants another test but thats a different matter.

So Brahmos Block II is being envsioned as a PGM for the IA.

Any info if the IAF version of Brahmos has the Block II upgrade as the standard suite?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Raman » 26 Mar 2009 00:00

GPS receivers only provide a position fix at a frequency of 1Hz to 5Hz -- not a lot for a rapidly moving missile. In an INS/GPS based navigation system, those GPS position fixes are also combined with INS position fix through a Kalman filter to compensate for gyro and accelerometer drift.

It is very possible for one of those GPS updates to get lost because of atmospheric noise, etc. It might be that the code that combined the two fixes didn't correctly deal with the case when a GPS fix was absent.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby NRao » 26 Mar 2009 01:35


ramana
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Mar 2009 01:39

Both are needed. Besides the MRSAM is in the future. Looks like bureaucratic inertia delayed this signing for so long. A whole bunch of players who should never have the say were involved in delaying the decision. and the politicians who should have made the decision early were wavering.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 26 Mar 2009 01:54

Looks like a commie spin on the actual story! Remember, they were the ones who are overtly opposed to Indo-Israel deals.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby NRao » 26 Mar 2009 02:11

India to work on anti satellite weapons

Washington, March 24: India, which is one of the few countries in the world to have significant space capabilities, is willing to work with the US to develop anti-satellite weapons, a top diplomat has said


then .....

Saran was referring to the recent announcements made by the US President, Barack Obama, about his intention to join multilateral efforts to prevent military conflict in space and to negotiate an agreement to prohibit the testing of anti-satellite weapons.


:D

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Mar 2009 02:19

NRao, The DDM misquoted Shyam Saran's speech at Brookings Institute. The actual text is in the Strat Forum.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby NRao » 26 Mar 2009 02:21

I know. But this has got be super DDM. Within a span of three paras, each about a sentence long the author could make such a blunder?

Since it is on the net I hope s/he has the sense to correct it.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby tejas » 26 Mar 2009 02:50

10,000 crores is slightly over $ 2 billion. That seems like a $hitloaod of money for a MR/LR-SAM system.The entire IGMDP cost less than that. I hope that figure is being used to cover someother classified programs.

I usually pay no attention to DDM articles alledging payoffs but this one does seem funny. An AAD spinoff for the navy may take some time to develop but I can't believe a variant for the airforce would be take too long to develop.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Katare » 26 Mar 2009 03:44

Tejas,
You are right so that means it it has to be a development come production contract with cost sharing by both countries. It may also mean a very large number of missile systems could be procured.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 26 Mar 2009 03:49

tejas wrote:10,000 crores is slightly over $ 2 billion. That seems like a $hitloaod of money for a MR/LR-SAM system.The entire IGMDP cost less than that. I hope that figure is being used to cover someother classified programs.

I usually pay no attention to DDM articles alledging payoffs but this one does seem funny. An AAD spinoff for the navy may take some time to develop but I can't believe a variant for the airforce would be take too long to develop.
it does include 2 squadrons of the MR SAM itslef

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby tejas » 26 Mar 2009 03:56

Katare, my understanding of this deal was that it was a joint R&D deal with co-pruduction in Israel and India. However, I did not see any article which stated that any of the money would go for production.

Something is funny with this deal. However, given all of the advanced technology Israel provides India only someone with malafide intents ( i.e. Indian commies) would oppose overall defense deals with Israel.

P.S. Sorry, jaladipc, I sent my post before I saw yours. Do you have a source for that info? TIA.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 26 Mar 2009 04:48

The exact same story, now from Sujjan Dutta..

Israel deal out of probe freeze

New Delhi, March 25: The Centre has signed a Rs 10,000-crore deal with Israel for missiles, overruling objections from the Left and just as the country is heading into elections.

The deal was cleared after defence minister A.K. Antony overcame his hesitation because of a CBI probe.

The contract was approved by the cabinet committee on security in July 2007 but was practically shelved by Antony after he learnt of the CBI probe and questions raised by the Central Vigilance Commission on other projects involving Israeli firms Rafael and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) that have supplied the Barak ship missile defence systems to the Indian Navy.

The government cannot claim to have executed a contract with Rafael and the IAI in ignorance or by mistake because of three reasons:

First, the CBI and the vigilance commission were probing and had asked questions leading the defence minister to practically freeze the projects

Second, at the same time, the government’s own Defence Research and Development Organisation accelerated its low-level quick reaction anti-missile Akash ballistic missile defence system to be developed apace.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: DRDO must the scratching their head right now wondering which is this super duper low level quick reaction anti missile Akash ballistic missile system they were supposed to be developing.


Third, in March, — and this makes it a political hot potato in the run-up to the polls — the Left had written two letters — one to the Prime Minister and another to the defence minister — asking for investigations into defence deals with Israel and demanding scrapping of the LLQRM (low-level quick reaction missile) deal that threatened to be executed at the cost of the indigenous programme (reported by The Telegraph on March 19).


:rotfl: :rotfl: LLQRM is supposed to be a joint project with the French, moron.


Sigh...looks like another project on the verge of being confined to indefinite chai biskoot sessions.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby andy B » 26 Mar 2009 04:50

^^^ I honestly wish nay hope that one day some IAF jock beats some sense into these idiot DDMs....

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Atri » 26 Mar 2009 05:41


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 26 Mar 2009 06:09

64 crore ~25 years back=600 crore now :D look at the inflation and commodity appreciation figures :)

tejas wrote:P.S. Sorry, jaladipc, I sent my post before I saw yours. Do you have a source for that info? TIA.


source name cant be typed in public domain :-? sorry.but mark my words

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby tejas » 26 Mar 2009 06:43

jaladipc, if you can't name the source, thats o.k. At least some of the expense will be spent on the actual product. How many missiles are in a squadron?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Mar 2009 08:58

I view it as a kind of brahmos deal. a nice placeholder JV through which all kinds of knowledge can be shared. LR-SAM could be a subset....and thats why commies,media are trying best to put roadblocks.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 26 Mar 2009 11:27

DNA news excerpt

The MRSAM deal is a joint project in which IAI would be leading the development of a medium-range surface-to-air missile for the air force. The DRDO is a partner in the project, but will effectively get only a third (Rs 3,000 crore) of the Rs 10,000 crore bounty. IAI gets the bulk of it, over Rs 7,000 crore. The missile is to have a range of around 70 km.

Disappointed military sources are also appalled by the fact that despite India paying up such a huge amount of money, there is no significant transfer of technology. India's greatest weakness in missile production is "seeker" technology, which is one of the biggest Israeli contributions to the contract. But the Israelis won't be transferring technology for "seekers". Seeker technology is key to how missiles hit their targets.


Frankly I give a sh*t about Rs. 600 crores as it is supposed to be 6% of something and not necessarily of Rs 10,000 crore. If it was a bribe then there were hundred better ways to hide it.

Be as it may, this news seems odd. My thinking was that this was an MRSAM deal of 100-150km range missile which is basically a missile with booster to LRSAM navy missile (Barak-2-8-NG) which was supposed to be 50-70km missile.

Am also worried about the fact that there would be (i) no transfer of tech of radar or seeker (ii) and most of manufacturing will be done in Israel. But then both info may be wrong. India and Israel may already be working on new seeker or radars tech keeping it seperate from MR-LRSAM.

Now I wonder what is the DDM in production sharing percentage?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 26 Mar 2009 12:00

The following older news had a different spin:-


INDIADEFENCE

India, Israel To Co-Develop Advanced Barak Ship Defense Missile System




Dated 8/7/2007


India and Israel have agreed to expand their already considerable missile development cooperation with an even longer-range version of their extended-range Barak ship defense system, this time for the Indian Air Force.

Sources from both countries say they expect to sign an add-on development contract by early next year, following last month's conclusion of a memorandum of agreement between Indian defense research authorities and prime contractor Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI).

This was reported by 'Deccan Herald'.

The new land-based air defense system will feature a range of 150 kilometers, more than double that of the supersonic, vertically launched Barak-8, or BarakNG (New Generation) now being developed for the Indian Navy.

"We've agreed to extend our ongoing BarakNG project with a longer-range missile capable of performing additional missions and meeting a larger array of threats," one Israeli source said in early July, noting that India's fiscal year ends in March 2008. "We're all looking to sign a contract by the end of the fiscal year."

The program, he said, is "a natural extension" of the approximately $480 million, five-year contract concluded in early 2006 between the Indian Defence Research Development Organization (DRDO) and IAI.

Indian Defence Ministry sources said Israeli partners have agreed to transfer all technologies and manufacturing capabilities relevant to the co-development program. They noted that the new land-based air defense system — a planned replacement for the Indian Air Force's Russian-made Pechora surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) — would provide full hemispheric, 360-degree interception coverage against existing and future threats.

Sources declined to provide projected program costs, but estimated the effort would take about four years and a minimum of $300 million to develop unique system elements and an initial tranche of the land-based missiles.

The Indian Air Force has a requirement for nine advanced air defense squadrons, each of which will feature two SAM units. A typical unit will include an acquisition radar, a guidance radar, a command-and-control center and three launchers with eight missiles apiece.



Gurpreet Khurana, a Navy commander and a defense analyst of the Institute of Defence Studies and Analysis (IDSA), a New Delhi think tank, called the long-range Barak a tactical defense system, not a strategic or offensive one.

"A longer-range anti-missile system has become imperative today, with the increased [120-kilometer] range of anti-ship missiles like the Harpoons," Khurana said. "Besides, the missile platforms have a stand-off firing capability -- the P-3C Orion can launch the missile at an Indian Carrier Battle Group, without even entering the air-defense zone. In any case, interception of missiles at longer ranges is necessary, particularly to prevent saturation of air-defense response."

The latest Barak-based co-development project marks the third phase of Indo-Israeli cooperation based on the air defense system by IAI and Israel's Rafael Armament Development Authority. The cooperation began in 2001 with a $270 million deal for the basic Barak ship defense system. Mutual satisfaction with system performance and Israeli willingness to engage in technology transfers led in January 2006 to the 70-kilometer-range BarakNG program.

"This has been a phenomenally successful cooperative program, which has served as a springboard to all kinds of other potential projects," an Israeli industry source said.

He estimated that the three Barak-based missile development efforts combined exceed $1.3 billion.

Indian Defence Ministry sour-ces said scientists from the government's DRDL missile laboratory in Hyderabad are already working in Israel on the BarakNG program.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 26 Mar 2009 16:27

anyways,wot so special about the news now?

it was actually signed a way back.And the indian made missile was ground tested in israel in a way back.Every thing is progressing as per the schedule.
trash the DDM.............if they dont have anything to chew they bring some old news onboard and make a big mess in both public as well as private domains.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sum » 26 Mar 2009 16:45

Jaladi-saar,
The MR-SAM(a.k.a. LR-SAM) has already been test fired? :eek: :shock:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Philip » 26 Mar 2009 19:27

Is this system going to compete with the PAD ABM system?The ranges mentioned for the IAF missile appear to have some ABM capability.Where does it also leave Akash?,which is being procured in small quantities.If Akash ahs been a success,why not further develop it to the ranges for the ER Barak? It would save a lot of moolah and accelerate indigenisation.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby chiragAS » 26 Mar 2009 20:00

my guess the cost also involves payment for Harabara tree.
guess they are buying the tot and some systems for fast operationalization of indian ABM.

there is NO foul play.
Last edited by chiragAS on 27 Mar 2009 15:53, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 27 Mar 2009 05:02

IAI wins huge deal in India

IAI press release ..(well may be IDM version of Press release)

Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) (TASE: ARSP.B1) today nofficially announced that, on February 27, it signed a $1.4 billion contract with India for air defense systems.

Under the deal, IAI will develop and manufacture seaborne and shore-based systems against missile attack :?:

Part of the payment for the systems will be made during the development period, and the balance will be paid during the 66-month delivery period, which is slated to begin 90 months from the date the advance payment is received.

IAI has undertaken to procure military or aviation products and services from India, and will invest in defense companies in India up to an amount equal to 30% of the contract.

IAI stated that it delayed announcing the contract until now, because the customer informed the company that early disclosure was liable to cause material difficulties in execution of the contract, and even result in its cancellation :shock: . IAI added that it felt that this risk would be substantially reduced once the advance payment was received.

IAI said that when it learned yesterday afternoon that the deal had been reported in the foreign media, it announced the deal, even though the advance payment has not yet been received.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sum » 27 Mar 2009 11:45

IAI stated that it delayed announcing the contract until now, because the customer informed the company that early disclosure was liable to cause material difficulties in execution of the contract, and even result in its cancellation :shock: . IAI added that it felt that this risk would be substantially reduced once the advance payment was received.

So, it means that the project is already well under way? :-?

90 months from date of payment= 7.5 years from now(2016) before the MRSAM rolls out??? :shock:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby manjgu » 27 Mar 2009 13:46

sum.. the indian JV is already in place and work has begun.. they have a dev office in delhi.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 27 Mar 2009 15:15

It is not clear that this announcment is only for LRSAM or for both LRSAM & MRSAM or there is only one missile.

Assuming a delivery peroid of 2016-2021 for missiles, there is adequate time for more orders of Akash -1 and also for developing Akash-2 for simultaneous use/production.

If 9x2x3 =54 launchers x8=432 missiles are included with appropriate radars/vehicles then US$ 1.4 Billion is not a bad deal.

But the issue is, what technology we are getting??

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Sontu » 27 Mar 2009 16:13

Raj Malhotra wrote:The following older news had a different spin:-

INDIADEFENCE
India, Israel To Co-Develop Advanced Barak Ship Defense Missile System

He estimated that the three Barak-based missile development efforts combined exceed $1.3 billion.


Never heard there are THREE Barak based SAM systems ..under development with IAI..so far we have heard about only two .

1) Barak NG/ Barak 8/MR SAM- with head on range 70 KM
2) LR-SAM -with head on range 120 KM

Where is the third one ?
Is there any development happening on Barak 1 QR SAM too ?
Last edited by Sontu on 27 Mar 2009 16:29, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby prashanth » 27 Mar 2009 16:14

Any chances that they are helping us in our AD project( the successor of PAD-AAD)? The 150 KM range leads one to think so.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Austin » 27 Mar 2009 16:22

There is Arrow 3 missile under development by Israel/IAI , not sure if we have anything to do with it.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 27 Mar 2009 17:53

Sontu wrote:
Raj Malhotra wrote:The following older news had a different spin:-

INDIADEFENCE
India, Israel To Co-Develop Advanced Barak Ship Defense Missile System

He estimated that the three Barak-based missile development efforts combined exceed $1.3 billion.


Never heard there are THREE Barak based SAM systems ..under development with IAI..so far we have heard about only two .

1) Barak NG/ Barak 8/MR SAM- with head on range 70 KM
2) LR-SAM -with head on range 120 KM

Where is the third one ?
Is there any development happening on Barak 1 QR SAM too ?


He adding Purchase of Barak-1 for naval purchases. Anybody has any idea how many Barak-1 Naval missiles lots/systems have been purchased and how many other are in offing?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 27 Mar 2009 17:56

sunilUpa wrote:IAI wins huge deal in India

IAI press release ..(well may be IDM version of Press release)

Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) (TASE: ARSP.B1) today nofficially announced that, on February 27, it signed a $1.4 billion contract with India for air defense systems.

Under the deal, IAI will develop and manufacture seaborne and shore-based systems against missile attack :?:

Part of the payment for the systems will be made during the development period, and the balance will be paid during the 66-month delivery period, which is slated to begin 90 months from the date the advance payment is received.

IAI has undertaken to procure military or aviation products and services from India, and will invest in defense companies in India up to an amount equal to 30% of the contract.

IAI stated that it delayed announcing the contract until now, because the customer informed the company that early disclosure was liable to cause material difficulties in execution of the contract, and even result in its cancellation :shock: . IAI added that it felt that this risk would be substantially reduced once the advance payment was received.

IAI said that when it learned yesterday afternoon that the deal had been reported in the foreign media, it announced the deal, even though the advance payment has not yet been received.


This news can also mean that :-

Naval missile LRSAM deal can be of US$ 400 million or so, for development and purchase of (?) sytems

while IAF version MRSAM deal can be of US$ One Billion or so, for development and purchase of (?) sytems

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Katare » 27 Mar 2009 19:05

I think that 90 months is a typo it could be 9 months. If it is 9 months than it starts to make sense. 9 months to setup the venture and 66 months to develop and deliver. 66+90=156 months = 13 years is too long to be true.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sum » 27 Mar 2009 21:07

Hadnt BR concluded that Barak-8/NG,MRSAM and LRSAM are one and the same missile and just different names?

True chankyian obfuscation going on here...

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby vavinash » 27 Mar 2009 21:48

Why the sudden ruckus? India and israel decided to collaborate on SAM's and BMD a long while ago. All these commie ******** making fuss about it is due to the upcoming elections.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Mar 2009 22:08

The real story is that MoD sat on files for over a year and just before elections moved it. So there is a urgent need now which wasnt felt earlier. Might be the need to augment air defences in view of global developments.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sum » 27 Mar 2009 22:11

Hope the first thing the new govt doesn't do is to "review" this deal..

I think that by now, the Israelis have achieved enough clout in the upper circles that their deals will become govt independent (since all major players and babus will be in their payroll/influence)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Mar 2009 22:39

No Sum. Its needed. A review will only deal needed hardware. Please do visit the army discussion thread and do not think it silos.


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