Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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Prabu
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Prabu »

Rahul M wrote:we anyway have a pact with the pakis to notify each other in case of BM tests.
the global monitoring systems too can be expected to keep a 24/7 eye on ITR so in reality you can't expect the test to remain a secret.

in such circumstances, failing to announce a test is a sure fire way of attracting undue attention towards it. of course, by now we know that trishul and prithvi tests are mysterious phenomena, one can never be sure what that means ! :twisted:
Rahulji, your post does indicate to me that, it is possible we have tested some other misile system, under the name of prithivi ! :wink:
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by narayana »

It could be just a user trial
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by LokeshP »

my knowledge on this subject is very minimal. so a question i have out of curiosity, the BR missiles page gives a pretty good description of Astra BVRAAM. is it in production and being inducted into the armed forces?
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Mihir.D »

LokeshP wrote:my knowledge on this subject is very minimal. so a question i have out of curiosity, the BR missiles page gives a pretty good description of Astra BVRAAM. is it in production and being inducted into the armed forces?
From what we know from open source its not in production yet.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Dileep »

of course, by now we know that trishul and prithvi tests are mysterious phenomena, one can never be sure what that means ! :twisted:
Don't forget the 130456th test of the Lakshya PTA
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Dilbu »

SDREs have tested another one of their old and monotonous Prithvis onree, like they tend to do when ever they feel an itch to cower in the dhotis. Why so much halla-gullah and unwanted attention, hain? :twisted:
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Jamal K. Malik »

more news on prithvi II
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... d/58578/on
it seems user(army)is learning use :D
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by pkudva »

It has been informed as Prithvi-2,but when it becomes to defence you never know. The actual details will never be revealed in detail.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Gerard »

The 8.56 meter long and one meter wide twin engine sleek missile has features to deceive any anti-ballistic missile and is equipped with "added inertial navigation" system, the sources said.The missile, designed to operate with both liquid as well as solid fuel, can carry conventional or nuclear pay loads of 500 kg.
See.. solid fuel missile, liquid fuel missile, unguided missile, guided missile, conventional missile, nuclear missile... all named Prithvi ! :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Nitesh »

From article above:

AoA :evil: :evil:
A naval ship had been anchored near the impact point in the Bay of Bengal and a long-range tracking radar (LRTR) as well as a multi-function tracking radar (MFTR) had been deployed to track the missile's trajectory.
The 8.56 meter long and one meter wide twin engine sleek missile has features to deceive any anti-ballistic missile :evil: :evil: and is equipped with "added inertial navigation" :idea: system, the sources said.The missile, designed to operate with both liquid as well as solid fuel, can carry conventional or nuclear pay loads of 500 kg.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

Gerard wrote:
The 8.56 meter long and one meter wide twin engine sleek missile has features to deceive any anti-ballistic missile and is equipped with "added inertial navigation" system, the sources said.The missile, designed to operate with both liquid as well as solid fuel, can carry conventional or nuclear pay loads of 500 kg.
See.. solid fuel missile, liquid fuel missile, unguided missile, guided missile, conventional missile, nuclear missile... all named Prithvi ! :mrgreen:
my head is spinning ! :twisted:
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Gaurav_S »

pkudva wrote:It has been informed as Prithvi-2,but when it becomes to defence you never know. The actual details will never be revealed in detail.
Detail? What kind of details you expect on this internet forum? Unless you are a DRDO scientist or belong to head of Army why someone will give you more insight? IMO its not their job to reveal each and every micro details of the test. That has to be kept secret. Remember surprise element of the war. All we jingos can do is logical speculations based on incoming reports from media while trying to filter out DDM's.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by shyamd »

Its probably a new yindu mijjile launched under the guise of Prithvi. But time will tell us.

------------------
IOL: This middle man character (sudhir chaudhry) for the MRSAM missile is for real. Apparently Israeli press was forbidden to mention his name until last month. Reports are that CBI will be investigating him. He helped sell the Barak missile. He has represented IAI since 90;s. He has been representing ALL israeli firms for the last 10 years. He is based in London. This Chaudhry guy and Nanda has been under the scanner for the past few months because they have been dishing out bribes to Indian officials and "officers". There are 3 characters, Chaudhry, Suresh Nanda and some guy called Erwin Kanu.

Apparently the Israeli firms owe much of their success to these local agents.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Arun_S »

Rahul M wrote:
See.. solid fuel missile, liquid fuel missile, unguided missile, guided missile, conventional missile, nuclear missile... all named Prithvi ! :mrgreen:
my head is spinning ! :twisted:
Think about the skull of Ass-FaQ Kiyani, and his Slime-Dog (=! slum dog) millat with deeple than arabian ocean eyes. Allah ra-ham(sic) kar !

I highlight few words that may constitute Yindu Yindian missile language/signaling.
Prithvi-II successfuly test fired
Press Trust of India / Balasore (orissa) April 15, 2009, 14:09 IST

India today successfully test fired a version of nuclear-capable 'Prithvi-II' ballistic missile with a range of 350 kms from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur, about 15 km from here off the Orissa coast.

The indigenously developed surface-to-surface ballistic missile was test fired at around 1020 hours from a mobile launcher as part of a user trial by the army, defence sources said. The entire trajectory of the trial was tracked down by a battery of sophisticated radars and electro-optic telemetry stations positioned in different locations for post-launch analysis, they said.A naval ship had been anchored near the impact point in the Bay of Bengal and a long-range tracking radar (LRTR) as well as a multi-function tracking radar (MFTR) had been deployed to track the missile's trajectory. {Arun_S: Shoe honing trajectory prediction of evasive target mijjile that AAD/PAD loves to devour}

The sources said the test firing of the short-range ballistic missile was a user trial by the army. The surface-to-surface missile has already been inducted into the army and is "handled by the army unit attached to the strategic force command special group", the sources said. However, scientists of the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) were supervising the test-firing and all logistic support was being provided by the ITR personnel here.{Arun_S: I think its a Block-n upgrade of the guidance package for precision strike. U see the Yindu SRDE missile is available in large quantity, and effectiveness increases many times when CEP improves from +/- 50 meter to the size of Kiyani Ass-FaQ}

The 8.56 meter long and one meter wide twin engine sleek missile has features to deceive any anti-ballistic missile and is equipped with "added inertial navigation"{Arun_S: See above comment about Block-n upgrade / precision guidance package} system, the sources said.The missile, designed to operate with both liquid as well as solid fuel, can carry conventional or nuclear pay loads of 500 kg.{Arun_S: Yindu Chinkian Sanskrit code that was earlier use to designate Shourya, that hunts "sooar kay bacchay".}

The user trial of "Prithvi-II" {Arun_S: For a mijjile already deployed, its is till user trail, and not user training !! Daal main kuch kaala!}was last carried out on May 23, 2008 from the ITR, Chandipur.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by RamaY »

Arun_S wrote: Prithvi-II successfuly test fired
Press Trust of India / Balasore (orissa) April 15, 2009, 14:09 IST
One Telugu news paper reported it as a Agni II missile with 15KM range that enhanced our missile protection shield (ABM Shield?) :lol:
http://www.andhrajyothy.com/latestmains ... pr/15new49
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Gerard »

India Tests Ability To Launch Nuclear Warhead
Sources in the Indian Defence Ministry said the launch tested the missile's ability to carry a heavier payload, enabling it to be armed with a nuclear warhead. This test was conducted with only a conventional warhead.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Gerard »

Baljeet
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Baljeet »

Arun_S
Boss Yeh kya hua, kaisey hua, kab hua, kyon hua, humney jo socha thaa sunaa tha, kya batayein woh kya tha...Yeh toh hona tha so hua. :rotfl: :rotfl:

Boss I agree with your daal mein kala. Seems like Brahmos II stuff is desi maal, Army pretty happy with it, wants it for SS Missile to accurately hunt down, peshawar aur la-whore key ga**du.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by sum »

Could it be the Nirbhay under the guise of Prithvi just like the K-15 had her flights under a nom de guerre of "Prithvi"?

Added: Saw Arun guru's post later. Seems to be a Prithvi with ~0m CEP onlee...
Last edited by sum on 16 Apr 2009 10:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Arun_S »

This confirms my anticipation:
{Arun_S: I think its a Block-n upgrade of the guidance package for precision strike. U see the Yindu SRDE missile is available in large quantity, and effectiveness increases many times when CEP improves from +/- 50 meter to the size of Kiyani Ass-FaQ}

Army conducts 'Prithvi-II' test
Hemant Kumar Rout
16 Apr 2009

BALASORE: India on Wednesday successfully testfired the advanced version of its indigenously developed nuclear-capable ‘Prithvi- II’ short range ballistic missile from the integrated test range (ITR) at Chandipur- on-sea, 15 km from Balasore.

Mounted on a mobile tatra transportererector launcher (MTL), the sophisticated missile was fired at about 10.21 am.

This was the third consecutive success of the DRDO in the last 45 days. Last month, it had successfully conducted the test of an interceptor off the Orissa coast and then BrahMos missile from the Pokhran range.

This time it was a user trial conducted by the Secunderabad-based 333 Regiment of the Army. The test was aimed at achieving ‘close to zero circular error probability (CEP) accuracy,’ {Arun_S: I.e. Ass-FaQ Kiyani } sources said.

‘The missile used for the test was picked up randomly from the assembly line after production and was launched with an improved aided inertial navigation system. It has achieved single digit accuracy reaching close to zero CEP,’ said a source at the defence base here.

‘The entire flight path of the missile was smooth in accordance with pre-decided coordinates. It travelled up to 191 km within a span of nearly six minutes.’ The 8.56-metre high and one-metre thick ‘Prithvi’ missile, with a launch weight of 4.6 tonnes, has a strike range of 150 km to 350 km. Powered by liquid propellant, ‘Prithvi’ can operate with both liquid as well as solid fuel and carry a payload between 500 kg and one tonne, including nuclear weapons. ‘Prithvi can be taken close to the forward line over any kind of terrain. It has been designed to deliver advanced conventional warheads deep into enemy territory.

The missile stops climbing when it reaches an altitude of 30 km and dives at the target at an 80 degree angle,’ a defence scientist said. ‘Prithvi’ is India’s first indigenously-built ballistic missile.

Since 2002, ‘Prithvi II’ has been used by the Army with the overarching logistical control and support retained by the IAF
.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Singha »

I think the brahmos block2 sensor for striking in cluttered env could have been tested.
the terminal missile speeds are about the same.

we need to make it the CEP of a typical goatshed , coz thats where most jihadi/PA jarnails are found at night.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Arun_S »

Singha wrote:I think the brahmos block2 sensor for striking in cluttered env could have been tested.
the terminal missile speeds are about the same.

we need to make it the CEP of a typical goatshed , coz thats where most jihadi/PA jarnails are found at night.
I think its just the new INS onlee. :wink:
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by K_Reddy »

Arun, I have serious question, not sure you have had your say on this yet.

All of the new missiles coming out of DRDO right now have thrusters. I guess they got the tech from Brahmos as it was the first to use them (ISRO was technically first user in India). Agni 3, K-15/Shourya, PAD all use the tech. In the Brahmos they are used only during launch and then the front module with thrusters is jettisoned. I can understand their use in PJ-10 as the launch is very complex. The thrusters are for stability while attaining the speed needed for the scram-jet to takeover and steering the missile to a horizontal position. But in the case of the K-15 it is in use only for maybe 3 seconds - to stabilize the missile immediately after launch in the vertical axis.

The thruster module must be expensive and complex. Most cold launch missiles do not need such a mechanism for stabilization during launch. Am I missing something here? Is it because the booster stage in the K-15 is not energetic enough to immediately give the missile the speed it needs to stabilize or because the K-15 was originally meant for sea launch.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by sum »

Rajat Pandit sayz:
Clicky
Nuclear-capable Prithvi-II clears user trial test

NEW DELHI: India tested an advanced version of the nuclear-capable Prithvi-II ballistic missile, with a strike range of 350 km, from the
Chandipur integrated test range off the Orissa coast on Wednesday.

"The launch of the surface-to-surface missile from a mobile launcher was successful but it will take some time to analyse the entire telemetry data before it can be called a complete success or not," said a senior defence ministry official.

The significant aspect about this test was that it was conducted as "a user or training trial" by the tri-service Strategic Forces Command (SFC), created in January 2003 to manage the country's nuclear arsenal.

The Nuclear Command Authority (NCA) and the SFC were established to ensure proper command and control structures after the 10-month troop mobilisation along the Indo-Pak border under 'Operation Parakram'. The NCA's political council led by the PM is the "sole body which can authorise the use of nuclear weapons", with the SFC tasked with executing such a directive.

Prithvi was initially supposed to be a 150-km "tactical" battlefield missile with conventional warheads but later its role was expanded to include the "strategic" one as well with nuclear payloads.

With the 700-km Agni-I and 2,000-km-plus Agni-II ballistic missiles still to be inducted into the armed forces in adequate numbers, the advanced version of Prithvi is currently the mainstay of the SFC.

Wednesday's test of the 8.56 metre-long Prithvi-II missile was conducted from a Tatra transporter launcher around 10.15 am. The missile's entire trajectory was tracked by electro-optic telemetry stations, a battery of sophisticated radars and a warship anchored. "Training trials" are held to give armed forces personnel the requisite capability and confidence to fire the missiles on their own, without the help of defence scientists.

The Agni-I and Agni-II, incidentally, are also undergoing training trials, with the first missile — designed exclusively for Pakistan— having already undergone such trials in October 2007 and March 2008.

The 3,500-km Agni-III, which will give India the strategic capability to hit targets deep inside China, will be tested for the fourth time in the coming months. But it will ready for induction only by 2011-2012.

Then, of course, design work on India's most ambitious strategic missile with near ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile) capabilities, the 5,000-km range Agni-V, which incorporates a third composite stage in the two-stage Agni-III, is also in progress. Its first test is planned by 2010-2011.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Prabu »

Then, of course, design work on India's most ambitious strategic missile with near ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile) capabilities, the 5,000-km range Agni-V, which incorporates a third composite stage in the two-stage Agni-III, is also in progress. Its first test is planned by 2010-2011.
Tests palnned only by 2010-2011?? Its one more additional stage to AGNI III / III+ and is it not possible earlier !? :(
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Nihat »

If you follow DDM closely there are conflicting reports coming in all the time. For one , I still cannot figure out based on DDM reports whether Agni 1 and 2 have been inducted , are being inducted or will be inducted into the armed forces.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by neerajb »

K_Reddy wrote:Arun, I have serious question, not sure you have had your say on this yet.

All of the new missiles coming out of DRDO right now have thrusters. I guess they got the tech from Brahmos as it was the first to use them (ISRO was technically first user in India). Agni 3, K-15/Shourya, PAD all use the tech.
Same curiosity at my side. Thrusters for lateral control are uncommon on surface to surface missiles though thrusters on submarine launched missiles are an exception. Agni 3 will be submarine launched but Shourya is being touted as silo based missile. Don't understand what functionality does that thruster provides lest DRDO is hiding something and it's real platform is something else!

PAD is an entirely different system and it needs those thrusters for maneuvering in space where fins are not that effective because of rare atmosphere.

Cheers....
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Arun_S »

K_Reddy wrote:Arun, I have serious question, not sure you have had your say on this yet.

All of the new missiles coming out of DRDO right now have thrusters. I guess they got the tech from Brahmos as it was the first to use them (ISRO was technically first user in India). Agni 3, K-15/Shourya, PAD all use the tech. In the Brahmos they are used only during launch and then the front module with thrusters is jettisoned. I can understand their use in PJ-10 as the launch is very complex. The thrusters are for stability while attaining the speed needed for the scram-jet to takeover and steering the missile to a horizontal position. But in the case of the K-15 it is in use only for maybe 3 seconds - to stabilize the missile immediately after launch in the vertical axis.

The thruster module must be expensive and complex. Most cold launch missiles do not need such a mechanism for stabilization during launch. Am I missing something here? Is it because the booster stage in the K-15 is not energetic enough to immediately give the missile the speed it needs to stabilize or because the K-15 was originally meant for sea launch.
neerajb wrote:Same curiosity at my side. Thrusters for lateral control are uncommon on surface to surface missiles though thrusters on submarine launched missiles are an exception. Agni 3 will be submarine launched but Shourya is being touted as silo based missile. Don't understand what functionality does that thruster provides lest DRDO is hiding something and it's real platform is something else!

PAD is an entirely different system and it needs those thrusters for maneuvering in space where fins are not that effective because of rare atmosphere.

Cheers....
Good questions.

In understanding Indian/DRDO missile programs it may be useful to ponder on how many missiles in the world are designed to be multifunctional/multi-platform?

Indian missile programs was always on SRDE (starved) mode since inceptions and carries that mantra (or DNA) of "multifunctional" to save development time/resources and the manufacturing resources /cost.

So Agni-3 class missiles being multi-functional required minimum common denominator imposed by submarine launch. Same thing applies to K-15 (Shourya and Sagarika), but in this case thrusters are not only used to take the protective nose cap off, but also stabilizing the missile as it emerges from ocean. Clearly for land launched missile thruster seem un-necessary but that is simply a manifestation of a conscious choice made to accommodate other considerations.
>> But in the case of the K-15 it is in use only for maybe 3 seconds - to stabilize the missile immediately after launch in the vertical axis.
In addition to my observation above, it is essential to note the key difference here is that unlike Agni-3 class missile the booster stage is a half stage that is small and simple, and does not have thrust vectoring nozzle. Thus a nose mounted thruster for initial attitude correction is a necessity.
>> Is it because the booster stage in the K-15 is not energetic enough to immediately give the missile the speed it needs to stabilize or because the K-15 was originally meant for sea launch

The latter.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

Arun_S wrote:
Singha wrote:I think the brahmos block2 sensor for striking in cluttered env could have been tested.
the terminal missile speeds are about the same.

we need to make it the CEP of a typical goatshed , coz thats where most jihadi/PA jarnails are found at night.
I think its just the new INS onlee. :wink:
Read the relevant part of the article
The missile used for the test was picked up randomly from the assembly line after production and was launched with an improved aided inertial navigation system. It has achieved single digit accuracy reaching close to zero CEP,
The AIDED part is whats important here.. Those who work in the trade will realize what it means. Aided by what? Some kind of satellite navigation, either GPS or Glonass.

[Its possible that the missile is doing ranging using stationary ground based beacons, but at least I have not heard anything about such a system being developed or deployed. Besides, this sort of system will be pretty challenging.. perhaps more so than Satellite based nav.]

If IA or DRDO thinks, they will be allowed to have access to GPS or Glonass over the duration of a hot war with Pakistan, a war that may impinge on the perceived 'vital interests' of the large powers of the world, they are living in a fools paradise.

At another level, this is cheating.. You are fooling yourself and others, you can claim you have reached near zero CEP, but thats only possible if Unkil gives permission. Good luck getting that..
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Arun_S »

sudeepj wrote:The AIDED part is whats important here.. Those who work in the trade will realize what it means. Aided by what? Some kind of satellite navigation, either GPS or Glonass.

[Its possible that the missile is doing ranging using stationary ground based beacons, but at least I have not heard anything about such a system being developed or deployed. Besides, this sort of system will be pretty challenging.. perhaps more so than Satellite based nav.]
Well Agni-II nav system used that ( yours faithfully was amongst the first to point that out) for a BM most INS drift is due to stressful regime after burnout; after that if the INS is re-datumed, then the missile accuracy on INS alone is half as good as GPS. Thus stationary ground based beacons some 100-200 Km off launch pad that are calibrated during peacetime using celestial navigation or GAGAN, will do the job pretty good and then Unkill and Aunti can stuff up their SATNAV signal with no consequence to Chankian Indians.

For missiles like Prithvi and Shourya that re-enter and do extensive air manoeuvring that does limit the gain in accuracy, but would still maintain a very decent CEP to take out a hanger.
If IA or DRDO thinks, they will be allowed to have access to GPS or Glonass over the duration of a hot war with Pakistan, a war that may impinge on the perceived 'vital interests' of the large powers of the world, they are living in a fools paradise.

At another level, this is cheating.. You are fooling yourself and others, you can claim you have reached near zero CEP, but thats only possible if Unkil gives permission. Good luck getting that..
DRDO does what it is asked to deliver. Why blame DRDO blame the services and the military babus who want the same toys as the Frangi. Some one need to tell them base reality that you outline above, with a Muhavara from my village:
  • "Shaukeeni Buddhiya,
    Chataai Ka Lehanga"

    Loosely translated to: Fashion conscious old women of the village, makes Lehanga out of chatai materiel (the materiel that gunnybag / bori is made of) for she cant afford the expensive materiel used to make Lehanga, and does not understand the subtlety of wearing a Lehanga.



When India has launched its IRNESS then things will be very different. One has to take baby steps before starting to walk and then run.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by BijuShet »

sudeepj wrote:
Read the relevant part of the article
....

If IA or DRDO thinks, they will be allowed to have access to GPS or Glonass over the duration of a hot war with Pakistan, a war that may impinge on the perceived 'vital interests' of the large powers of the world, they are living in a fools paradise.

At another level, this is cheating.. You are fooling yourself and others, you can claim you have reached near zero CEP, but thats only possible if Unkil gives permission. Good luck getting that..
May be the Indian Regional Navigational Satellite System will take care of the GPS or Glonass not being available during hot pursuits and/or cold starts.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Anujan »

Arun_S wrote: Thus stationary ground based beacons some 100-200 Km off launch pad that are caliberated during peacetime using celestial navigation or GAGAN, will do the job pretty good and then Unkill and Aunti can stuff up their SATNAV signal with no consequence to Chankian Indians.
A module for celestial nav had been manufactured and displayed during one of the tech exhibitions/tech magazines 2-3 years back.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

Well Agni-II nav system used that ( yours faithfully was amongst the first to point that out) for a BM most INS drift is due to stressful regime after burnout; after that if the INS is re-datumed, then the missile accuracy on INS alone is half as good as GPS. Thus stationary ground based beacons some 100-200 Km off launch pad that are calibrated during peacetime using celestial navigation or GAGAN, will do the job pretty good and then Unkill and Aunti can stuff up their SATNAV signal with no consequence to Chankian Indians.
From a theoretical pov, your gyro drift would be bounded by a constant some degrees per hour.. ofcourse in practical scenarios its impacted by how your platform vibrates etc.

It wont be simple to plonk stationary beacons 100-200km off launch pads, and there are practical issues. If you can track it, so can others, if you can trilaterate, so can others and your beacons become sitting ducks. If you move them, you have logistical issues of calibration being invalidated time and time again due to shocks/temp changes etc. Then you will need to have pre surveyed locations from which to launch your missiles. The crew will have to reach the precise surveyed spot to launch the missile, how would they do that without GPS? You can dig a survey of India stake in the ground, but that gives away your launch location. Either that, or along with the missile crew, you send some BRO guys with survey equipment to look at nearby features like hills etc.

Also, you wont be able to use these signals for cruise missiles and JDAM-kumars which are far more effective bang for buck than ballistic missiles, since they wont fly high enough to get these signals..

Having said that, if DRDO/IA has accomplished these terrestrial pseudo satellites and can assure a highly reliable and available system, hats off to them once again.
If IA or DRDO thinks, they will be allowed to have access to GPS or Glonass over the duration of a hot war with Pakistan, a war that may impinge on the perceived 'vital interests' of the large powers of the world, they are living in a fools paradise.

At another level, this is cheating.. You are fooling yourself and others, you can claim you have reached near zero CEP, but thats only possible if Unkil gives permission. Good luck getting that..
DRDO does what it is asked to deliver. Why blame DRDO blame the services and the military babus who want the same toys as the Frangi. Some one need to tell them base reality that you outline above, with a Muhavara from my village:
  • "Shaukeeni Buddhiya,
    Chataai Ka Lehanga"

    Loosely translated to: Fashion conscious old women of the village, makes Lehanga out of chatai materiel (the materiel that gunnybag / bori is made of) for she cant afford the expensive materiel used to make Lehanga, and does not understand the subtlety of wearing a Lehanga.


You are right and I have a lot of respect for our scientists and soldiers. What I cant understand is the chatterati class not getting the issues at hand and misinforming the public. Hopefully, if public gets why we need a SatNav constellation, (or even much better and cheaper INS) there would be more traction for it.

Thats the reason I am posting this same message over and over again in the hope that someone who understands would be able to get it to the right eyes/ears.

When India has launched its IRNESS then things will be very different. One has to take baby steps before starting to walk and then run.


Ofcourse.. I am not trying to put down IA or DRDO but I want to clear any mis-conceptions in media and public that we have the capability to do precision strikes using GPS/Glonass, when we dont own/have a stake in these constellations. We will be able to do it in tests from Chandipur, but when its really needed from Jallandhar, depends on how friendly we are with the Great powers.
Last edited by sudeepj on 17 Apr 2009 05:19, edited 2 times in total.
sudeepj
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

Anujan wrote: A module for celestial nav had been manufactured and displayed during one of the tech exhibitions/tech magazines 2-3 years back.
AFAIK, celestial is outdated and not applicable for precision strikes. Nuclear is another matter..
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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sudeepj wrote:
Well Agni-II nav system used that ( yours faithfully was amongst the first to point that out) for a BM most INS drift is due to stressful regime after burnout; after that if the INS is re-datumed, then the missile accuracy on INS alone is half as good as GPS. Thus stationary ground based beacons some 100-200 Km off launch pad that are calibrated during peacetime using celestial navigation or GAGAN, will do the job pretty good and then Unkill and Aunti can stuff up their SATNAV signal with no consequence to Chankian Indians.
From a theoretical pov, your gyro drift would be bounded by a constant some degrees per hour.. ofcourse in practical scenarios its impacted by how your platform vibrates etc.

It wont be simple to plonk stationary beacons 100-200km off launch pads, and there are practical issues. If you can track it, so can others, if you can trilaterate, so can others and your beacons become sitting ducks. If you move them, you have logistical issues of calibration being invalidated time and time again due to shocks/temp changes etc. Then you will need to have pre surveyed locations from which to launch your missiles. The crew will have to reach the precise surveyed spot to launch the missile, how would they do that without GPS? You can dig a survey of India stake in the ground, but that gives away your launch location. Either that, or you send some BRO guys with survey equipment to look at nearby features like hills etc.
I am afraid, but you got that wrong.
Pls note the following:
  • 1. The pre-surveying is of the beacon sites that is the datum for the transmitted signal. The missiles can be launched from any non-surveyed site in the 100-150 Km vacinity.
    2. The beacon broadcast is using GPS style PN code is inherently spread spectrum and low power and one need to know the PN code to be able to listen to it.
    3. Pre-surveyed datum sites can be gridded as finely as Indian armies pleasure. There is enough LoS redundecies to make this robust. Surely the beacon's antenna can be taken out by an Anti-radiation Missile (and the beacon can easily have multiple antennas spread over 100 meter radius), but that itself blunts/wastes enemies offensive weapons. IOW it is not economic to take out enough beacons out of the system.
    4. Like Mil grade GPS signals, the beacon signal themselves can't be spoofed, by enemy.
sudeepj
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

Arun_S wrote:
It wont be simple to plonk stationary beacons 100-200km off launch pads, and there are practical issues. If you can track it, so can others, if you can trilaterate, so can others and your beacons become sitting ducks. If you move them, you have logistical issues of calibration being invalidated time and time again due to shocks/temp changes etc. Then you will need to have pre surveyed locations from which to launch your missiles. The crew will have to reach the precise surveyed spot to launch the missile, how would they do that without GPS? You can dig a survey of India stake in the ground, but that gives away your launch location. Either that, or you send some BRO guys with survey equipment to look at nearby features like hills etc.
I am afraid, but you got that wrong.
Pls note the following:
  • 1. The pre-surveying is of the beacon sites that is the datum for the transmitted signal. The missiles can be launched from any non-surveyed site in the 100-150 Km vacinity.
    2. The beacon broadcast is using GPS style PN code is inherently spread spectrum and low power and one need to know the PN code to be able to listen to it.
    3. Pre-surveyed datum sites can be gridded as finely as Indian armies pleasure. There is enough LoS redundecies to make this robust. Surely the beacon's antenna can be taken out by an Anti-radiation Missile (and the beacon can easily have multiple antennas spread over 100 meter radius), but that itself blunts/wastes enemies offensive weapons. IOW it is not economic to take out enough beacons out of the system.
    4. Like Mil grade GPS signals, the beacon signal themselves can't be spoofed, by enemy.
You cant have multiple antennas at the same location (you calculate your los distance from one antenna, not from one of many in 100m radius).

The launch needs to be from a known location, known to some degree of uncertainty, if its in a low 10s of kms, it doesnt matter, if its < 1km, it does.. It depends on how much your missile can correct itself.

You wont be able to acquire the signal at all before launch, since there is no los. For short range missiles, you have may be, 3-4 minutes to acquire and start tracking the signal.. At this stage, the missile may be jammed.

Its feasible enough to be in the realm of possibility :-) but its not going to be easy and have limited impact anyway (only for ballistic missiles). The hard parts (stable oscillators, stable rf, atomic clock, calibration etc), you would already have solved, launching the solution in an orbit will probably be easier if you can do it on the ground. It will also be vulnerable.. There are more than one ways to get the location of the beacons (humint/techint/.. so on).
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Arun_S »

sudeepj wrote:You cant have multiple antennas at the same location (you calculate your los distance from one antenna, not from one of many in 100m radius).
Saar: Of course one can !
The 100m separated antenna are obviously measured by a simple field tape, thus their timeing offset simply scaled. Ofcourse at one one time only one antenna is used by the beacon (I never said use all antenna at the same time). Enemy destroys that antenna, the beacon simply switches to use another one, and apply timing correction corresponsign to the 100meter physcal offset.
The launch needs to be from a known location, known to some degree of uncertainty, if its in a low 10s of kms, it doesnt matter, if its < 1km, it does.. It depends on how much your missile can correct itself.
Of course that is a given. IA Missile regiments have artillery pedigree and even WW-2 based maps have < 1km accuracy, don't they?
You wont be able to acquire the signal at all before launch, since there is no los. For short range missiles, you have may be, 3-4 minutes to acquire and start tracking the signal.. At this stage, the missile may be jammed.
Missile get > 100Km Los horizon at 2 Km altitude. Any jammer will at best have 17 dB advantage compared to beacon, but the processing gain of the signal from beacon more can overcomes the 17 db Jammer gain due to proximity. In fact the only way a jammer can start to make impact is when its jamming signal is 100 or more times stronger than beacon, either by raw power or by using a radar to track the launching missile and slaving a high gain steerable jammer antenna to focus the jam signal on the flying Prithvi. And there is thing on crafts called antenna diversity to kill jamming signal coming from wrong side of the border.

I don't want to be an argumentative Yindian, and stop here.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

Arun_S wrote:
sudeepj wrote:You cant have multiple antennas at the same location (you calculate your los distance from one antenna, not from one of many in 100m radius).
Saar: Of course one can !
The 100m separated antenna are obviously measured by a simple field tape, thus their timeing offset simply scaled. Ofcourse at one one time only one antenna is used by the beacon (I never said use all antenna at the same time). Enemy destroys that antenna, the beacon simply switches to use another one, and apply timing correction corresponsign to the 100meter physcal offset.
Exactly how would you apply a timing offset? You are thinking 1D, think 3D. What needs to happen is, it needs to be communicated to the signal tracker, that the signal is now being transmitted from a new location.
The launch needs to be from a known location, known to some degree of uncertainty, if its in a low 10s of kms, it doesnt matter, if its < 1km, it does.. It depends on how much your missile can correct itself.
Of course that is a given. IA Missile regiments have artillery pedigree and even WW-2 based maps have < 1km accuracy, don't they?
I did not know that.. :-)
I don't want to be an argumentative Yindian, and stop here.
Ok.. Sat based navigation is a pretty interesting and complex field. Its application on the military side of things, on the receiver side of things, is simpler than CE devices and much much more complex on the control side of things. Many of the issues of this technology are in the open source domain now, not much indication has come from the govt. of India that it seriously wants to develop a full scale survivable GNSS capability. Its one thing to wave hands and say we'll deploy stuff on the ground, quite another to actually have done it.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Arun_S »

sudeepj wrote:
Arun_S wrote:Saar: Of course one can !
The 100m separated antenna are obviously measured by a simple field tape, thus their timeing offset simply scaled. Ofcourse at one one time only one antenna is used by the beacon (I never said use all antenna at the same time). Enemy destroys that antenna, the beacon simply switches to use another one, and apply timing correction corresponsign to the 100meter physcal offset.
Exactly how would you apply a timing offset? You are thinking 1D, think 3D. What needs to happen is, it needs to be communicated to the signal tracker, that the signal is now being transmitted from a new location.
To set the record straight, my last rejoinder, .
Saar: I was always in 4 D Time-Space coordinate space as I was thinking thought my earlier reply. Beacon signal is generated/computed for a known geodesic position, so if the Beacon datum is apriori determined (by celestial or GPS/Gagan fix), then the displacement delta from the datum to the actual antenna position also yields apriori determined datum fix (measured by physical tape measurement offset from datum). So there is no unknowns left to properly generate the signal for the known Time-Space coordinate.

Thank you.
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