Indian Military Aviation

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 03 Sep 2008 07:33

Kartik wrote:LCH built on the platform of a Cheetah body ?! what on earth is that report crowing about !?

From the report:

If the test flight goes smoothly, the LCH, built on the platform of a Cheetah body would be the second big feather in HAL's cap after the Advanced Light Helicopter. The LCH is expected to fill vital gaps in India's security as the armed forces lack a helicopter gunship which can operate in extreme high altitude above 9,000 feet.

Normal ceiling for the Cheetah is 24,000 ft plus. Also, the other high altitude light gunship--the Lancer--is based on the Cheetah body.

Regardless, this will be the 2nd time that HAL has produced an aircraft in record time, the first being the HJT-36 Sitara AFAIK?

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 03 Sep 2008 07:52

Victor wrote:
Kartik wrote:LCH built on the platform of a Cheetah body ?! what on earth is that report crowing about !?
From the report:
If the test flight goes smoothly, the LCH, built on the platform of a Cheetah body would be the second big feather in HAL's cap after the Advanced Light Helicopter. The LCH is expected to fill vital gaps in India's security as the armed forces lack a helicopter gunship which can operate in extreme high altitude above 9,000 feet.
Normal ceiling for the Cheetah is 24,000 ft plus. Also, the other high altitude light gunship--the Lancer--is based on the Cheetah body.

Actually, the altitude numbers are not all that wrong. For example, the 9000-10000 feet limit is what is considered the starting point for "high altitude" as far as pure gunships are concerned. The Mi-25/35 fitted with a whole bunch of outboard defensive suites, fuel and weapons, cannot reach this altitude. All of the Indian helicopter "gunships" flying above this altitude level are not gunships at all, but modified transports. Even there, accessories considered primary for gunships cause severe degradation in hover and forward flight altitudes. For example, put in a decent IR suppressor at the end of the turbo-shaft engine exhaust and you can lose a few thousand feet in hover altitude limits as a result. The list goes on.

The point is that while the LCH is definitely not based on the Cheetah as the article claims, it's operations at high altitude is considered to begin beyond that altitude number assuming a decent weapons and range capability and not just record setting clean configuration flights.

-Vivek

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 04 Sep 2008 14:57

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/New ... 444074.cms

NEW DELHI: Aerospace and defence manufacturing giant Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is preparing a roadmap for implementation of its "dream project" to produce the country's first indigenously developed civilian passenger aircraft.

The project is in the planning stage and a final roadmap is being prepared so that work on it could be started soon, a top official in the state-run company said.

"It has been conceived as a dream project of HAL and we are in the process of finalizing the finer details," he said.

The project is considered to be a major leap in India's civil aviation sector and its successful completion would put the Bangalore-based PSU in the league of some of the leading global players.

The official said Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) will be involved in the ambitious project.

"The CSIR and DRDO will also play an active role in the project," he said.

He said HAL may seek foreign cooperation in certain areas to develop the new 70 to 100 seater aircraft but insisted that it will be a purely indigenous product.

Asked whether HAL was seeking help from Canada's Bombardier or Brazil's Embraer, he said it was too early to comment on it.

"It is too premature to comment on it. But definitely we may seek cooperation from global players in certain areas," he said.

The official said HAL may also involve renowned design houses from abroad to design the aircraft.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 04 Sep 2008 19:00

Is HAL big enough to handle LCA, IJT, MKI, impending MRCA, Jag & Mig-27 MLUs, impending M2k MLU and now this? Seems to me that the RJ busiess should be hived off into a separate entity.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 05 Sep 2008 15:32

http://www.domainb.com/aero/aero_mfg/20 ... _jets.html
India may become manufacturing hub for Airbus 350 XWB jets

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 06 Sep 2008 02:10

Vivek K wrote:Is HAL big enough to handle LCA, IJT, MKI, impending MRCA, Jag & Mig-27 MLUs, impending M2k MLU and now this? Seems to me that the RJ busiess should be hived off into a separate entity.

They can grow with the business; aircraft manufacturing business is going on the same line as Car manufacturing. The main company holds brand, design, marketing and assembly while rest of the parts and assemblies are manufacture by suppliers. Over the years HAL has developed an army of 300 vendors for the purpose. Once L&T's precision aerospace part manufacturing plant at Chennai comes online it would provide HAL a big helping hand in shedding large and complex sub-assemblies to them.

So yes HAL can take care of it all and recent award of Navratna status would come really handy in starting dozens of JVs leveraging private/foreign capital and capacity. Need of the hour is to have a big boy Indian aerospace company that can stand it's ground against MNCs and take large projects without/minimum taxpayer money.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 06 Sep 2008 02:41

Katare, with all due respect I beg to differ. We need to learn to walk before running. And if the LCA program is any indicator, we still have areas that we could focus all our energies on first. IIRC HAL's attention was distracted from the LCA when the IJT program took off anow this RJ will definitely distract. On the one hand we are unable to retain personnel and on the other hand we want them to do more. That does not seem to jive to me.

It may be time for us to build another entity that would develop RJ's/passenger aircraft. Such an entity could also involve the pvt sector and draw upon the SARAS experience.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 06 Sep 2008 06:03

Vivek K wrote:Katare, with all due respect I beg to differ. We need to learn to walk before running. And if the LCA program is any indicator, we still have areas that we could focus all our energies on first. IIRC HAL's attention was distracted from the LCA when the IJT program took off anow this RJ will definitely distract. On the one hand we are unable to retain personnel and on the other hand we want them to do more. That does not seem to jive to me.

It may be time for us to build another entity that would develop RJ's/passenger aircraft. Such an entity could also involve the pvt sector and draw upon the SARAS experience.

I agree with you Vivek, it would be better if HAL had a dedicated "Civie" Division sort of that would handle the SARAS and the RJ and could then diversify into more. Hell this division could also open up a dedicated maintainence depot for regular civilian jets and then also collaborate on a greater degree with majors like Airbus, boeing etc. This could be a good chance to get the private industry involved as well.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 08 Sep 2008 02:06

HAL to have maintenance base in Ecuador

Upbeat over the encouraging export orders of Advance Light Helicopter -- Dhruv, aerospace major Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has decided to set up a maintenance base for the chopper in Ecuador.

Officials in the state-run defence behemoth said HAL decided to establish the maintenance base in Ecuador after it received export order of seven Dhruv helicopters from the country.

"The export order from Latin American countries have encouraged us to go for a maintenance base in Ecuador," a top official in the HAL said.

"Winning the bidding to supply the choppers to Ecuador was a great achievement and we want to capitalise on it," he said adding HAL will offer best maintenance and service facilities to Ecuador for the ALH.

He said the Latin American market has huge potential and HAL was aiming to bag many more export orders from other countries of the region.

"We are eyeing other countries of the region also to sell the Advance Light Helicopter (ALH)," the official said, on the condition of anonymity.

The aerospace giant has so far received export orders worth Rs 15,000 crore for the ALH from Peru, Ecuador and Turkey.

HAL has already supplied 76 Dhruv helicopters to the country's defence services.

In June this year, HAL made aviation history by concluding the USD 51 million deal with Ecuador.

The deal signed between Ecuador Aviation Authority and HAL envisages the supply of seven helicopters in semi knock-down conditions in a time-frame of 15 months to two years.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/New ... 454528.cms

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 08 Sep 2008 02:21

Its heartening to see HAL setting up base in South america and hopefully africa. A base in ecuador can help sell IJT, Dhruv and saras to peru, ecuador, columbia and bolivia. What happened to the deal to sell dhruv to bolivia?

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Sep 2008 09:53

The great helicopter challenge: (Part 1 of a three-part series on India's new thrust in helicopter building) - Ajai Shukla

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 08 Sep 2008 11:08

The aerospace giant has so far received export orders worth Rs 15,000 crore for the ALH from Peru, Ecuador and Turkey.

is this correct or just ddm,did we get export orders worth 15,000 crores,as far as i know the toal number of dhruvs for export are less than 25 in numbers.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 08 Sep 2008 12:32

15000 cr seems very high. It may be the total order size including IA+IAF+IN+CG

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 08 Sep 2008 14:50

ranganathan wrote:15000 cr seems very high. It may be the total order size including IA+IAF+IN+CG

Guys how many Dhruvs did IN and CG order?. Dint IN have some issues regarding the ASW capabilites of the helo. Were they solved?

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Sep 2008 15:04

IIRC, the ASW version of the Dhruv has been abandoned due to vibration issues and global tenders floated for the same....

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 08 Sep 2008 21:57

After the U.S. market, MBDA views India as the next major growth area. India offers not only a huge market, but MBDA expects stability in its political and strategic situations in the medium to long term to smooth relations. The company will "be supported by our governments in Europe to develop strategic cooperation with India for the long term," Bouvier said.

MBDA's objective is to combine access to the Indian market with industrial cooperation. It already runs several joint projects, the longest-running being the 20-year partnership with Bharat Dynamics, which has produced more than 30,000 Milan infantry missiles. MBDA is working on the latest Milan ADT-ER development.

The company is proposing the PARS 3 LR air-to-ground missile for the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter, and is working on air-defense and surface-attack ventures for India.

www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3711815&c=FEA&s=BUS

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 09 Sep 2008 00:19

Light Combat Helicopter to fly soon

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ono=333870

The chief designer of the LCH programme, B Pandaji Nath Rao, spelt out the milestones: The LCH design was finalised and frozen this March; the first technology demonstrator (TD-1) will fly by March 2009, testing the LCH’s flying systems; by July 2009, the second technology demonstrator (TD-2) will fly, fitted with all the weapons and electronic sensors. By the end of 2009, the Indian Air Force (IAF), the primary users of the LCH, will be conducting flight tests on the TD-3.

And the new crash-resistant landing gear allows pilots to survive even when the LCH smacks into the ground at more than 10 metres per second.

It can take off from an altitude of 10,000 feet, operate weapons up to 16,300 feet, and engage targets like UAVs that are flying at altitudes of up to 21,300 feet.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 09 Sep 2008 03:24

Vivek K wrote:Katare, with all due respect I beg to differ. We need to learn to walk before running. And if the LCA program is any indicator, we still have areas that we could focus all our energies on first. IIRC HAL's attention was distracted from the LCA when the IJT program took off anow this RJ will definitely distract. On the one hand we are unable to retain personnel and on the other hand we want them to do more. That does not seem to jive to me.

It may be time for us to build another entity that would develop RJ's/passenger aircraft. Such an entity could also involve the pvt sector and draw upon the SARAS experience.

That is wrong way of thinking IMO. Concentration of large amount of capital, experience and competent management is essential in todays world if you want to compete and be successful. The need for separation can be satisfied by having a separate civilian division in HAL.

Read this from Ajai Shukla's article, exactly what I said in my previous post......This is the way HAL should take to elevate itself to higher value addition levels.

HAL will design and manufacture the core components like the main rotor, tail rotor, gearbox and weaponry. Meanwhile, HAL will buy less critical sub-systems from specialist manufacturers in the international market.

Mr Baweja explains, “It is wasteful to duplicate the efforts of specialists who make individual systems. For example, there are specialist cockpit houses, which mainly design cockpits. You have Honeywell, you have Rockwell, and you have Thales. Our [HAL’s] role will be that of a top-end designer; we will identify systems and write the software that makes them function together.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 09 Sep 2008 14:46

Hindustan Aeronautics completes first phase of Jaguar upgrade programme

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... tono=46216

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 09 Sep 2008 15:01

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/09/ ... -soon.html

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Sep 2008 15:07

sanjaychoudhry wrote:Hindustan Aeronautics completes first phase of Jaguar upgrade programme

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... tono=46216

says :
The HAL is carrying out another development programme for the Jaguar fleet which includes additional features like an advanced radar system.

"Another development programme is going on for the strike aircraft to add some additional features like advanced radar systems which IAF wants," Vaishampayan said.

which radar, 2032 ?

shetty · Post by **shetty** » 09 Sep 2008 22:56

Russia to provide after sale service to Indian AEW planes

GELENDZHIK (South Russia), September 8 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's state arms exporter, Rosoboronexport, said on Monday it had contracted a number of Russian companies to provide India's A-50 AEW aircraft with after sale services.

"Rosoboronexport has signed contracts with the Beriev Aircraft Company, the Perm Motors Group and the Vega concern to provide after sale maintenance to India's airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft," a Rosoboronexport official told reporters at an air show in the Krasnodar Region.

The A-50 Mainstay is a Russian AWACS aircraft based on the Ilyushin Il-76 transport plane. It entered service with the Russian Air Force in 1984, and about 40 aircraft had been produced by 1992.

In 2001 India ordered three A-50EI variant fitted with the Israeli-made Phalcon radar system from Russia. The first aircraft was scheduled to arrive in 2007-08 but has been delayed.

According to various sources, the Russian Air Force has 16-19 A-50 AWACS aircraft.

Russia is currently developing a modernized version of the A-50 plane, which features an improved radar system and more sophisticated and powerful PS-90A engines.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Sep 2008 23:14

Rahul M wrote:
sanjaychoudhry wrote:Hindustan Aeronautics completes first phase of Jaguar upgrade programme

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... tono=46216
says :
The HAL is carrying out another development programme for the Jaguar fleet which includes additional features like an advanced radar system.

"Another development programme is going on for the strike aircraft to add some additional features like advanced radar systems which IAF wants," Vaishampayan said.

which radar, 2032 ?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircr ... aguar.html In 1996, a contract was signed with Elta to upgrade the maritime attack variant with the EL/M-2032 multimode fire control radar. Ten EL/M-2032 radars are to be supplied. The IM aircraft will also be installed with integrated electronic warfare pods. Although Bharat Rakshak had earlier reported that the Jaguar IMs were all upgraded with the EL/M-2032 radar and with integrated electronic warfare pods, it appears that this has not been done. We regret the error, if incorrect. Apparently before the IM upgrade could begin, the 'Main Force' upgrade was finally commissioned and this has apparently caused the delay.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 09 Sep 2008 23:56

Katare,

So will HAL not need to employ any brainpower to do any airframe designs or any other engineering for this project? Basically my question is does HAL have enough "additional" personnel that it will not disturb or distract the LCA team? If the answer is yes, then you're probably right.

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 10 Sep 2008 06:08

From DN

Indian Navy To Get AEW&C
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI

NEW DELHI — After acquiring airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft for its Air Force, India has moved to provide the planes for the Navy as well.

Early this month, the Navy floated a request for information for procurement of three AEW&C aircraft it intends to induct in the next five years. The request has been issued to BrazilÂ’s Embraer, ItalyÂ’s Alenia Aeronautica, SpainÂ’s EADS CASA, UkraineÂ’s Antonov and U.S. firms Gulfstream and Northrop Grumman. The companies have been asked to submit technical specifications in eight weeks, after which the Navy intends to float a formal request for proposals in May. The Navy is expected to finalize the projectÂ’s budget in 2011. A senior Navy official said the service is looking at twin-engine aircraft weighing 20 to 35 tons. The Navy asked planemakers to provide technical data about new-generation radar with mechanical and electronic scanning capabilities, mission computers and technical workstations, communication systems and datalink suites, and electronic countermeasures.

The firms have also been asked to submit technical parameters of endurance, range, flying capabilities in rough weather conditions, and ability to carry anti-ship missiles and torpedoes.
In 2004, India acquired three Phalcon airborne warning and control system (AWACS) radar from Israel to be mounted on three Russian Il-76 aircraft for $1.5 billion. Deliveries were scheduled in 2007 but have been delayed until early 2009.

Indian Defence Ministry sources said the Air Force has proposed buying more Phalcon aircraft in addition to the three already contracted in 2004 for $370 million each. The Phalcon phased-array radar allows the AWACS to pick up a variety of enemy signals operating up to 400 kilometers distant.

The Air Force wants to use the additional Phalcons as part of the Aerospace Command under development by the Indian Defence Forces. Meanwhile, the Bangalore-based Centre for Airborne Studies, a laboratory of the Defence Research and Development Organisation, has begun design and development of an AEW&C system to be mounted on a Brazilian Embraer. Under the deal, Embraer will modify its regional jet aircraft, the EMB-145, to carry the active array antenna unit developed by the organization. Three modified EMB-145 aircraft will be developed under this agreement; the first one to be delivered in three years.

India has been pushing AEW&C procurement since Pakistan ordered five Saab 2000 aircraft fitted with Erieye airborne early warning (AEW) systems from Sweden in a deal valued at about $1 billion in 2006. PakistanÂ’s Navy also acquired P-3 Orion aircraft from the United States fitted with Hawkeye 2000 AEW systems.

China and Pakistan also have signed a memorandum of understanding for the joint development of AEW&C systems.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 11 Sep 2008 00:45

Vivek K wrote:Katare,

So will HAL not need to employ any brainpower to do any airframe designs or any other engineering for this project? Basically my question is does HAL have enough "additional" personnel that it will not disturb or distract the LCA team? If the answer is yes, then you're probably right.

HAL Would need more top-end employees as they expand. They are the only one that can quickly hire and train top class aviation research engineers/scientists given their existing infra/trained manpower. HAL is not developing LCA, they are just going to manufacture the aircraft which would need little design resources. As of now we have four public entities engaged and designing aero-platforms -

ADA
HAL
ADE
NAL

The last thing we need is another one duplicating the efforts of others. HAL is a billion dollar navratna corporation with excellent management structure, we should let it do its job the way they want to do it. HAL invests more money in R&D as percentage of total revenue than any other Indian corporate (including private sector) except may be a few Pharma companies. For long the babudom has restricted it to manufacturing plane under ToT for armed forces, now it seems like it is on course to become Indian Boeing someday. HAL’s expansion in civilian sector is crucial for its long term survival IMO. It’ll also complement its efforts in designing military aircrafts by building scales, infrastructure and concentrating resources.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 11 Sep 2008 19:58

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 02,00.html

Opposition defends Joint Strike Fighter over simulated dogfights

September 11, 2008
THE federal Opposition has dismissed new doubts about the multi-billion dollar Joint Strike Fighter project and the jet's performance.

The JSF jets, for which Australia is likely to pay $16 billion, were comprehensively beaten in highly classified simulated dogfights against Russian Sukhoi fighters, it has been reported.

The war games, conducted at Hawaii's Hickam airbase last month, were witnessed by at least four RAAF personnel and a member of Australia's peak military spy agency, the Defence Intelligence Organisation, The West Australian said.

Opposition defence spokesman Nick Minchin said he was taking "with a grain of salt" the validity of the report.

"This is based on a computer game, computer modelling of the aircraft," he told Sky News.

"This is not real life."

Senator Minchin said he had a classified briefing on the JSF from its US manufacturer Lockheed-Martin which had promoted the aircraft as the most advanced jet fighter ever.

"I can't really say much about it, but this is a phenomenal aircraft.

"As our chief of defence Angus Houston has said this is a most extraordinary aircraft, it is the right aircraft for Australia."

The multi-purpose fighter would be the backbone of the United States military, Senator Minchin said.

"We are fortunate to be in it and the government should move to make the decision to acquire it."

WA Liberal backbencher Dennis Jensen said he had spoken to a third party with knowledge of the final classified test results who had claimed the JSF had been clubbed like baby seals by the simulated Sukhois, The West Australian reported.

He said the government should demand that the US Government sell it the F-22 which was already in operation instead of the JSF.

A response was been sought from the government.

From the Australian... but I wonder where theyve got the simulation specs from, hmmmm?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Sep 2008 20:13

From the Australian... but I wonder where theyve got the simulation specs from, hmmmm?

probably another desperate attempt of the pro-raptor lobby of aussie MoD and carlo.

the only thing that can be considered classified in this is the simulation software, if that. probably just a simple plane A vs plane B wargaming sw, something like what the harpoon can.
as someone says, it is just a game, realistic but a game nevertheless.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 11 Sep 2008 21:28

who had claimed the JSF had been clubbed like baby seals by the simulated Sukhois

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 12 Sep 2008 06:20

Cross posting from Space thread:
India approves satellite navigation project

Statesman News Service
NEW DELHI, Sept. 11: For providing seamless navigation over Indian airspace and waters, the government today approved implementation of Rs 774-crore Global Positioning System (GPS) aided Geo Augmented Navigation (Gagan) project.

This project involves development of indigenous technology in frontier areas and is expected to yield a number of benefits to the aviation sector.

Apart from enabling aircraft to navigate on a straight path instead of navigating in a zig-zag path over land based stations, it will provide coverage of oceanic areas which is not possible by terrestrial systems. It will increase safety by using three dimensional (3D) approach operations-enabling multiple approach capability, improve airport and airspace access in all weather conditions, enhance reliability and reduce delays.

It will also help airlines’ cause by providing fuel-efficient air corridors and providing CAT-I approaches without ground element support. The Indian Space Research Organisation and the Airports Authority of India (AAI) are developing this system jointly. “With implementation of Gagan, India will become
the fourth country in the world to have a satellite based navigation system,” a spokesperson said.

The civil aviation minister, Mr Praful Patel, said the GAGAN system will be in place by 2011 and it will make flying much safer than at present. He said of the Rs 774 crore estimated expenditure on the project, AAI would spend Rs 580 crore.

The implementation of the Gagan programme is being realised in two phases. The first, Gagan TDS phase (Technology Demonstration System), was completed in August, 2007.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 12 Sep 2008 12:11

Muslim airman attacks IAF's anti-beard rule
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 473118.cms

NEW DELHI: Duty before self or freedom to practise one's religion? The Supreme Court on Thursday took upon itself to adjudicate a sensitive issue raised by a petition which contends that an Indian Air Force rule banning its personnel recruited after 2002 from sporting a beard interferes with their faith.

While the petitioner, Corporal Mohammed Zubair, said the rule impinged on his fundamental right to follow his religion which obliges him to grow a beard, the Centre countered saying it pursued a policy free of religion and would not allow anyone in the armed forces to make himself distinct from his colleagues in the name of faith.

Appearing for the petitioner, senior advocate Rajeev Dhawan argued before a Bench comprising Justices C K Thakker and D K Jain that anything which formed the core of religious practice could not be curtailed by the government.

Zubair challenged the validity of the IAF's executive instructions of February 24 and April 1, 2003, prohibiting Muslim personnel from growing a beard.

"This executive direction to the petitioner to shave off (his) beard is patently illegal, without any sanction or authority of law, besides being against the spirit of Article 25 of the Constitution and also against the secular ethos of the armed forces," said Zubair, whose plea had earlier been struck down in the high court.

"Does Quran mandate a Muslim to keep a beard?" asked the Bench. Dhawan was ready with an answer. "It is in the Hadith and Sunna. The government had put in place a permissive system, but it was changed arbitrarily," he said, referring to the fact that till 2003, Air Headquarters did not stop Muslim personnel from keeping beards if they had permission from their superiors.

Asked to respond, additional solicitor general Gopal Subramaniam argued that the armed forces cannot allow some personnel to stand out from the rest. "The government is bound to respect religious freedom.... But there is an overdriving concept of public interest when one is working in the armed forces. Can one sport a beard as an act of distinctiveness when the person is expected to work in an environment of cohesiveness? The pursuit of faith is not abrogated, but standing out is what concerns the forces."

The ASG added, "Should a personnel deserve his identity as a matter of duty or his faith? The State is free of any religion. Those who have already entered service and are keeping a beard, we are not stopping them. But for fresh recruits, we are applying a uniform rule."

The issue, tricky that it is, evoked a further question from the Bench: Will the new rule be not seen as discriminatory as it allows some to keep a beard while restraining others from doing the same?

Finding the questions raised by the petition worth a thorough legal scrutiny, the Bench issued notice to the Centre and asked it to give reasons why the rule should not be stayed.

K_Reddy · Post by **K_Reddy** » 12 Sep 2008 13:33

Please do not club me with the DG Kongress netas and their sycophantic minority apleasement when I say – let the man keep this beard. I am an atheist and don’t really give a **** about beards and talismans but it’s a simple matter of personal freedom. In no way would a beard prohibit him from do his job, and like he says, it’s long been a tradition/cultural obligation.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Sep 2008 13:57

that would have a negative impact on discipline. why not allow people to keep long hair and wear jeans too, citing directives of the church of the flying spagetti monster ?
the armed forces are meant to protect democratic values, not practice it.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 12 Sep 2008 14:09

I hope this issue is nipped in the bud. A very strong statement from the Armed forces should clear the issue and shut the media up.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 12 Sep 2008 16:24

With Muslims, this demand is always a slippery slope. One has to be very careful. Their separatism usually starts with an innocent demand to be allowed to keep a beard or wear a scarf. But it won't stop at that. Once this demand is granted, the next demand would be to have a separate area for themselves for prayers, then only halal food be served to them in the mess, then lady Muslim officers will demand that they not have their picture taken for the i-card .... you get the idea. Having a separate appearance is the first step in their steeping out from the herd and proclaim that they are different and cannot merge with non-believers.

Delhi's Kaangress govt. (who else?!) allowed Muslims in the Delhi police to have beards. I was recently shocked to see a Muslim cop at a roadblock with a flowing beard going down to his belly button, while other clean-shaven cops standing sheepishly around him and trying to overlook the bizzare sight.

K-Reddy sahib, if you ask me, nobody has been as destructive to India after independence than Hindus who have turned atheists, right from Nehru to Kuldip Nayar to Rajeep Sardesai. These are the real enablers of Muslim separatism and enemies of our civilisation.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Sep 2008 16:45

tho' this is OT,
sanjay, one can be an atheist and a hindu. (I'm one)
think about it.

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 12 Sep 2008 18:15

sanjaychoudhry wrote:With Muslims, this demand is always a slippery slope. One has to be very careful. Their separatism usually starts with an innocent demand to be allowed to keep a beard or wear a scarf. But it won't stop at that. Once this demand is granted, the next demand would be to have a separate area for themselves for prayers, then only halal food be served to them in the mess, then lady Muslim officers will demand that they not have their picture taken for the i-card .... you get the idea. Having a separate appearance is the first step in their steeping out from the herd and proclaim that they are different and cannot merge with non-believers.

Delhi's Kaangress govt. (who else?!) allowed Muslims in the Delhi police to have beards. I was recently shocked to see a Muslim cop at a roadblock with a flowing beard going down to his belly button, while other clean-shaven cops standing sheepishly around him and trying to overlook the bizzare sight.

K-Reddy sahib, if you ask me, nobody has been as destructive to India after independence than Hindus who have turned atheists, right from Nehru to Kuldip Nayar to Rajeep Sardesai. These are the real enablers of Muslim separatism and enemies of our civilisation.

Ha ha ha ha

you are hilarious dude.

give the corporal some compromise. He can keep it under some regulation length etc..
Otherwise why not ask the Sikhs to cut of their hair and stop the whole tikka ceremony for the hindus

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 12 Sep 2008 18:56

ssmitra wrote:
sanjaychoudhry wrote:With Muslims, this demand is always a slippery slope. One has to be very careful. Their separatism usually starts with an innocent demand to be allowed to keep a beard or wear a scarf. But it won't stop at that. Once this demand is granted, the next demand would be to have a separate area for themselves for prayers, then only halal food be served to them in the mess, then lady Muslim officers will demand that they not have their picture taken for the i-card .... you get the idea. Having a separate appearance is the first step in their steeping out from the herd and proclaim that they are different and cannot merge with non-believers.

Delhi's Kaangress govt. (who else?!) allowed Muslims in the Delhi police to have beards. I was recently shocked to see a Muslim cop at a roadblock with a flowing beard going down to his belly button, while other clean-shaven cops standing sheepishly around him and trying to overlook the bizzare sight.

K-Reddy sahib, if you ask me, nobody has been as destructive to India after independence than Hindus who have turned atheists, right from Nehru to Kuldip Nayar to Rajeep Sardesai. These are the real enablers of Muslim separatism and enemies of our civilisation.
Ha ha ha ha

you are hilarious dude.

give the corporal some compromise. He can keep it under some regulation length etc..
Otherwise why not ask the Sikhs to cut of their hair and stop the whole tikka ceremony for the hindus

In principal I agree if Muslims cannot have their beard grown then the other religions should have a stop on their religious practises as well, however we must also take into consideration that majority of the Armed forces are and were formed by Hindus, Sikhs etc. their traditions and customs have been taken granted since the inception of the Indian Armed Forces bcoz they were the first ones in.

BTW are Muslims allowed to trim the beard? If so then maybe the Armed Forces Brass can decide on dimesions wise how long or thick should the beard be.....

Rahul M wrote:tho' this is OT,
sanjay, one can be an atheist and a hindu. (I'm one)
think about it.

Hinduism has been around for that long now that its gone beyond the whole religion phase its a concept, its a way of life....thought I would add my 2 cents.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2008 19:24

I am sure NDTV and Times Now who have a permanent panel of experts from Islamabad to
comment on world issues in their talk shows will not like it one bit. and a smug paki retd
general will be allowed to proclaim on prime time that India oppresses its muslims - again.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Sep 2008 19:28

It is also important to note that for a Sikh officer, it is compulsary to wear turban (even if you've shaved off your hair) and trimming of beard is frowned upon. Ans this is not only for Sikh officers in Sikh/SikhLI regimets (though both of these have very few Sikh officers) but other regimets as well.

But the point to ponder is this:

Is it absolutely necessary to grow hear or wear a particular clothing because the Holy literature says so and is defining feature (like Sikhs having facial hair and wearing turbans and the five Ks) or is it an article of faith and representation of one's devotion to tenets of religion? Something like wearing the sacred thread, the tuft of hair one needs to keep if one's a Brahmin?
If the answer is former, then by all means one should be allowed to folow one's religious tenets. But if it is latter, then discretionary powers can and should be allowed.In my opinion, it is latter in this case (witness the pictures of TFTA and brave jawans of from the land of 1100% pure ) and gov. should be allowed it's discretionary powers for a higher cause.