Indian Military Aviation

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shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 29 Sep 2008 06:29

vavinash wrote:Never heard IAF complain about the An-32 nor could the west really offer an alternative that would have let us buy 120 odd planes of that class.


Correct. The "West" was not even in the reckoning. By the time we needed the An 32 the US had already refused us the C 130 that we wanted and we had already inducted the An-12. Apart from the C-130, the US had developed its C-5 heavy lift capability and Europe had developed their "independent deterrent" with the Transall and a Spanish transport - I can't recall exactly - maybe the CASA 212. The Brits had let us have their Avro 748, but that had no loading/unloading ramp. Airbus was still far into the future.

In the thick of the cold war when the two superpowers developed the maximum variants of weapons systems - we were holding Soviet hands and could only "choose" from what the Soviets had to offer at that time. And that is what we did. India did not have the option, culture or choice of asking for what they wanted from "ground up" - That is to ask the end user what they would want if India could magically produce a transport from design stage up. That is after all what every major manufacturing nation doe.

It is another matter that we tried exactly that with the Arjun and look at the new visions of the absolute Brahman that we are getting regarding that issue.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vavinash » 29 Sep 2008 06:55

shiv wrote:
In the thick of the cold war when the two superpowers developed the maximum variants of weapons systems - we were holding Soviet hands and could only "choose" from what the Soviets had to offer at that time. And that is what we did. India did not have the option, culture or choice of asking for what they wanted from "ground up" - That is to ask the end user what they would want if India could magically produce a transport from design stage up. That is after all what every major manufacturing nation doe.



That flies in the face of acquiring Jags and Mirages from europe. What I meant was the west had no cheap option like An-32 to offer. They could have offered transall C-160 but it would have lost out on the cost. Same with Mig-21 and EE lightning. US did try to force britain to sell us lightning so we wouldn't go for Mig-21's but they could never offer the price advantage and local assembly that Mig-21 offered.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 29 Sep 2008 07:16

vavinash wrote: What I meant was the west had no cheap option like An-32 to offer..


And the US wouldn't give us any C 130s. C-5s were out.

So what option did we have?

We had the option of buying the An 26 Curl with an uprated engine for hot and high conditions.

It fitted in with our requirements, but was it designed from ground up to meet Indian requirements?

There is a difference and nobody seems to be able to answer that question because that is relevant to this discussion.

The An 32 was successfully adopted by the IAF. If it still meets our requirements exactly, we need an exact but modern modern An 32 replacement in terms of payload/range/capability

But if it is not an exact match and our requirements can be met with something different and better, what are those different requirements and what choice do we have for those requirements to be met.

In other words without knowing what the IAF's exact requirements are how come we on the forum are searching for exact An 32 replacements? Do we have information that this is exactly what the IAF wants? Where has that information been made public?

What are the reasons that make us say that an MTA might nor fulfil the IAF's requirements?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vavinash » 29 Sep 2008 07:20

MTA is a jet powered C-130 class. What we need to land on small strips in himalayas and other outposts are something like C-27 spartan. I would prefer if HAL-NAl made one based on RTA instead of buying from outside.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 29 Sep 2008 07:47

vavinash wrote:MTA is a jet powered C-130 class. What we need to land on small strips in himalayas and other outposts are something like C-27 spartan. I would prefer if HAL-NAl made one based on RTA instead of buying from outside.

Thanks. No disrespect intended. This is your opinion. What is the IAF's opinion about its own requirements?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby neerajb » 29 Sep 2008 07:57

shiv wrote:
vavinash wrote:MTA is a jet powered C-130 class. What we need to land on small strips in himalayas and other outposts are something like C-27 spartan. I would prefer if HAL-NAl made one based on RTA instead of buying from outside.

Thanks. No disrespect intended. This is your opinion. What is the IAF's opinion about its own requirements?


Yes you are quite right that it is IAF to decide what design they want but turbofans can't match the short field performance of a turbo prop assuming that newer designs (turbofans) match the efficiency of turbo props.

IMVHO I don't think it's going to matter much whether the military cargo arrives 1 hour late but it would be appreciated a lot by the operators if the craft could take of from unprepared, short runways perched at mountain peaks.

Cheers....

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Raj Malhotra » 29 Sep 2008 12:53

shiv wrote:
vavinash wrote:MTA is a jet powered C-130 class. What we need to land on small strips in himalayas and other outposts are something like C-27 spartan. I would prefer if HAL-NAl made one based on RTA instead of buying from outside.

Thanks. No disrespect intended. This is your opinion. What is the IAF's opinion about its own requirements?


What is IAF requirement?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby A Sharma » 29 Sep 2008 15:44

HAL looks at foreign partners for chopper project

India's blue-chip firm, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), will soon develop a 10-tonne class helicopter for the armed forces and is searching for foreign partners either from Russia or a France-based company.

The Defence Public Sector Undertaking (DPSU) plans to carry out the medium-lift helicopter programme in partnership with a foreign manufacturer.

"We plan to develop and build 10-tonne class helicopters in partnership with either the Eurocopter or the Russians. We are yet to finalise the partner for the programme, which would be done in the next few months," HAL Chairman Ashok Baweja told PTI today.

"Eurocopter and a Russian company have been shortlisted by HAL in its search for a partner in the helicopter development programme.

"We would zero in on our partner in next few months. This would be a joint venture between the selected company and HAL," Baweja said.

The DPSU has plans of producing around 350 helicopters in the 10-tonne class, keeping in view the market for medium-lift helicopters in the armed forces.

"We are hoping that the helicopter would be inducted by all the three services," he said.

HAL will be looking at the export potential of the helicopters also, as it would be developed with a foreign company.

"We also are looking at exporting the chopper. This will happen, as we would be working with the foreign partner," Baweja added.

The 10-tonne helicopter would be offered to the navy to meet its requirement for heavy-lift choppers. The navy had earlier refused to accept the HAL's flagship Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH) 'Dhruv', as it did not meet its requirement.

Another chopper project HAL is working on is for manufacture of Light Utility Helicopters (LUH).

HAL has been asked to develop a 3-tonne light helicopter for the army and the IAF for replacing their fleet of 'Cheetah' and 'Chetak'.

"We are in the preliminary stages in the project and are working on the design of the LUH. This would be a 3-tonne helicopter with a single engine," Baweja said.

The LUH project would be completed in next five to six years and would help upgrade the helicopter fleet of the armed forces.

The army and the IAF want to replace around 300 'Cheetah' and 'Chetak' helicopters, which form the bulk of their rotary wing fleet. HAL would be producing 187 helicopters for the two forces, Baweja said.

The two forces had expressed a joint demand of 384 helicopters earlier, of which 197 would be procured directly from foreign vendors and the rest 187 developed and produced by HAL.

"The numbers can be increased in future as the navy is also looking to replace its fleet of the 'Cheetah' and 'Chetak' helicopters," the HAL chairman said.

The DPSU has also plans to sell around 100 such helicopters in the civilian sector with the demand for light helicopters has been steadily increasing in the country.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Raj Malhotra » 29 Sep 2008 19:18

i think rather than 10 ton helo, HAL should go in for 13 ton helo as Dhruv is already 5.5 tons and will grow further with Shati engines. Seaking, Mi-17 and E-101 are all around 13ton, So I think that HAl should try for 12-15 ton stream.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby uddu » 29 Sep 2008 21:56

Raj Malhotra wrote:i think rather than 10 ton helo, HAL should go in for 13 ton helo as Dhruv is already 5.5 tons and will grow further with Shati engines. Seaking, Mi-17 and E-101 are all around 13ton, So I think that HAl should try for 12-15 ton stream.


It's based on the requirement and if Indian helo is using more composite material, the weight is going to come down.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby m mittal » 29 Sep 2008 23:57

Hi Guys,

I have compiled a album of planes with Indian Air Force and Indian Navy with captions explaining the details.

The captions also mention the source of pics.

Current Fighter Planes with IAF:
http://picasaweb.google.com/mittal.fdk/ ... anesOfIAF#

Helicopters in Indian Air Force:
http://picasaweb.google.com/mittal.fdk/ ... nAirForce#

Transport Aircraft with IAF:
http://picasaweb.google.com/mittal.fdk/ ... ftWithIAF#

Trainer Aircrafts with IAF:
http://picasaweb.google.com/mittal.fdk/ ... tsWithIAF#

Unmanned Air Vehicles with Indian Air Force, Indian Army and Indian Navy:
http://picasaweb.google.com/mittal.fdk/ ... ndianNavy#

Future Aircrafts with Indian Air Force:
http://picasaweb.google.com/mittal.fdk/ ... nAirForce#

Aircrafts with Indian Navy:
http://picasaweb.google.com/mittal.fdk/ ... ndianNavy#

I'll keep updating them and adding more albums.

Do leave suggestions and any updated info in the comments.

Enjoy

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 30 Sep 2008 08:43

Nice pics, mittal saar....

Do we still operate the Mongol (Mig-21 U)?? Thought it was hallaled....

Also, when did the IA procure the harpy?? :eek: :shock:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby srai » 30 Sep 2008 13:57

Raj Malhotra wrote:
shiv wrote:
vavinash wrote:MTA is a jet powered C-130 class. What we need to land on small strips in himalayas and other outposts are something like C-27 spartan. I would prefer if HAL-NAl made one based on RTA instead of buying from outside.

Thanks. No disrespect intended. This is your opinion. What is the IAF's opinion about its own requirements?


What is IAF requirement?


I would assume the selection of a turbofan for the MTA has partially to do with performance at hot and high Indian conditions in the North East and the J&K regions. Check out the interesting tit-bit below:

Turbofan
...
For reasons of fuel economy, and also of reduced noise, almost all of today's jet airliners are powered by high-bypass turbofans. Although modern combat aircraft tend to use low bypass ratio turbofans, military transport aircraft (e.g. C-17 ) mainly use high bypass ratio turbofans (or turboprops) for fuel efficiency.

Because of the implied low mean jet velocity, a high bypass ratio/low specific thrust turbofan has a high thrust lapse rate (with rising flight speed). Consequently the engine must be over-sized to give sufficient thrust during climb/cruise at high flight speeds (e.g. Mach 0.83). Because of the high thrust lapse rate, the static (i.e. Mach 0) thrust is consequently relatively high. This enables heavily laden, wide body aircraft to accelerate quickly during take-off and consequently lift-off within a reasonable runway length.

The turbofans on twin engined airliners are further over-sized to cope with losing one engine during take-off, which reduces the aircraft's net thrust by 50%. Modern twin engined airliners normally climb very steeply immediately after take-off. If one engine is lost, the climb-out is much shallower, but sufficient to clear obstacles in the flightpath.
...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby neerajb » 30 Sep 2008 14:26

srai wrote:I would assume the selection of a turbofan for the MTA has partially to do with performance at hot and high Indian conditions in the North East and the J&K regions. Check out the interesting tit-bit below:


This comparision is Turbofan V/s Turbojet and hence not valid in Turbofan V/s Turboprop comparision. Short field performance of turboprops and turbofans is quiet different reason being the props accelerate a lot of air by very low speed for thrust (rate of flow X acceleration) wherease turbofans move relatively lesser air mass by higher velocity. In turbo props the propeller diameter can be kept quiet large because the hub is at wing level ( 18 feet for bear) whereas the largest turbofans have fan diameter of around 10 feet (underslung engines). So for speeds upto 500 Kmph turboprops are the most efficient choice, for 500-900 turbofans and above that turbojets.

Cheers....

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Raj Malhotra » 30 Sep 2008 18:44

I don't know whether it is correct but I have been given to understand that Turboprop are required for Short take off and landing on rough semi prepared forward airfields.

Turbofans normally have problem of requiring longer airstrip for take off and landing, paved airstrip to acquire speed to take off, higher chances of ingestion of foreign material and difficulty of reversing on its own power.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Lalmohan » 30 Sep 2008 19:01

Raj Malhotra wrote:I don't know whether it is correct but I have been given to understand that Turboprop are required for Short take off and landing on rough semi prepared forward airfields.

Turbofans normally have problem of requiring longer airstrip for take off and landing, paved airstrip to acquire speed to take off, higher chances of ingestion of foreign material and difficulty of reversing on its own power.


turbo props are basically gas turbines that are used to drive propellors - therefore it is a means of adding considerably more power to a low air speed application. transports operating out of short airstrips require high power at low airspeeds - which is great for high lift, but then these powerplants (and aircraft configurations) are unable to fly at high speeds (with low drag for moderate lift). the turbofan is a turbojet with a small amount of 'bypass' that in simple terms improves the economy of the engine allowing for good high speed cruising ability. if you need brute strength and don't care about range, then turbojets are better. turbofans offer good high speed with some economy. turbo props offer good economy and low speed power, and piston engines offer very good economy at low speed high power

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby m mittal » 30 Sep 2008 21:10

sum wrote:Nice pics, mittal saar....

Do we still operate the Mongol (Mig-21 U)?? Thought it was hallaled....

Also, when did the IA procure the harpy?? :eek: :shock:



Regarding Harpy here is the link: http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/ ... HARPY.html

and regarding Mig-21 U I got it from BR fleet page

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kartik » 30 Sep 2008 22:11

m mittal wrote:
sum wrote:Nice pics, mittal saar....

Do we still operate the Mongol (Mig-21 U)?? Thought it was hallaled....

Also, when did the IA procure the harpy?? :eek: :shock:



Regarding Harpy here is the link: http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/ ... HARPY.html

and regarding Mig-21 U I got it from BR fleet page


if you got the MiG-21U pic from the BR page, why post it back on BR ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby HariC » 01 Oct 2008 01:53

Always love the "future aircraft of the _____ air force" threads (ref to folder above).. another name could be "jingo wet dreams" picture folder.. :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Arun_S » 01 Oct 2008 02:40

Arun_S wrote:Lt Gen Nagal is new Strategic Forces commander
30 Sep, 2008, 2227 hrs IST, PTI
NEW DELHI: Lieutenant General B S Nagal will be the new Commander of India's Strategic Forces beginning on Wednesday.


Gen Nagal will take over command of the most crucial formation of India's defence forces from Vice Admiral Vijay Shankar, who will take over as the new Commander-in-Chief of the Andaman-based Tri-Services Command, Defence Ministry sources said.

Air Marshal S C Mukul, who was the chief of the IAF's Allahabad-based Central Air Command, has been appointed as the new Chief of the Integrated Defence Staff headquarters here, in place of Lt Gen Hardev Singh Lidder, who retired today.

Air Marshal Radhakrishnan will replace Mukul as the new Central Air Commander.

Commanders-in-Chief of Army's South Western Command Lt Gen P K Singh and Central Command Lt Gen H S Panag also retired today, but announcement regarding their successors was yet to be made till late in this evening.

Lt Gen R K Karwal will take over as new Director General of the National Cadet Corps from Lt Gen P S Chaudhary, sources added.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shetty » 01 Oct 2008 05:46

India, France agree to bolster defence cooperation

Paris, September 30: India and France on Tuesday agreed to bolster bilateral defence ties by working on joint development of quick reaction short range surface-to-air missiles (SRSAM) and concluding a crucial deal on upgradation of IAF’s frontline Mirage 2000 fighters.

Transformation of defence ties from a buyer-seller relationship to joint production and transfer of technology for making hi-tech weapon systems and platforms was highlighted in a joint statement issued after summit talks between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and French President Nicolas Sarkozy in Paris.

Negotiations on upgradation of IAF’s fleet of 52 Mirages 2000 fighters, which will enhance their life for another 25 years, are almost in final stages.

This was reflected in comments made by Sarkozy after the summit meeting where he said “discussions on the upgradation are well underway and expected to be finalised by next year”.

In the proposed deal worth over 1 million euros, the French aviation major Dassult has offered to upgrade the IAF Mirages to the level of French Air Forces Mirage 2000-9.

Another major French-led European company EADS has offered an agreement to jointly produce 1,000 SRSAM for the Indian Army in collaboration with DRDO and state-owned Bharat Dynamics.

Dassult is also one of the leading contenders for the IAF’s biggest ever military contract worth USD 10 billion for acquisition of 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vavinash » 01 Oct 2008 06:29

Why is nobody asking if french army will induct this missile?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 01 Oct 2008 07:19

Raj Malhotra wrote:I don't know whether it is correct but I have been given to understand that Turboprop are required for Short take off and landing on rough semi prepared forward airfields.

Turbofans normally have problem of requiring longer airstrip for take off and landing, paved airstrip to acquire speed to take off, higher chances of ingestion of foreign material and difficulty of reversing on its own power.



The Americans have addressed all this with the C-17
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=quOwa58NeHE

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 01 Oct 2008 08:21

In the proposed deal worth over 1 million euros, the French aviation major Dassult has offered to upgrade the IAF Mirages to the level of French Air Forces Mirage 2000-9.

1 million or 1 billion? :-?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Nitesh » 01 Oct 2008 11:32

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/09/ha ... es-of.html
MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 2008

HAL's Baweja: Two different prototypes of 5th Gen fighter, etc

A whole bunch of reporters sort of ambushed HAL chairman AK Baweja shortly after the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Committee meeting concluded this afternoon. He was nice enough to stick around and answer a few questions. Obviously a whole lot of questions were thrust upon him, so I'm just going to list out the updates of whatever he said:

For starters, the committee meeting yesterday has agreed to expedite the conversion of the existing Inter-governmental Agreement (IGA) on joint development of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft into a formal General Agreement (GA). Interestingly, HAL chairman AK Baweja points out that two separate prototypes with common minimum technology will be developed -- one by Russia (designated the Sukhoi T-50) and a separate one by India (designated FGFA for now). While the Russian aircraft will be a single-seater, the Indian FGFA will be a twin seater, but not a trainer version of the Russian counterpart. Baweja explained that as per IAF doctrinal inputs, they want a mix of both single and twin seaters, though they would prefer the Indian sider to develop a twin-seater platform. HAL will be contributing largely to composites, cockpits and avionics. The current AL-31FP engine will have to evolve into a more powerful turbofan -- HAL is working to enter into a joint development mechanism with Russia for the evolution of the FGFA engine as an upward derivative of the AL-31FP.

The 20-ton multirole transport aircraft (MRTA) proposal has moved forward as well. A 50:50 shareholders agreement is now awaiting approval from the Russian side.

The proposal for the HAL-built Light Observation Helicopter (LOH) being developed to replace the Cheetah/Chetak fleet will shortly be taken to the Cabinet for final approval. According to Baweja, concepts of the chopper are firmed up and in place, work has even begun. Baweja has formally committed to certification and delivery of the first 10 choppers in 6 years. Incidentally, Ecuador will soon order two more ALH Dhruvs, taking its total order to nine helicopters.

HAL will build engines for any follow-on MiG-29Ks that the Navy orders. And the Chetak naval UAV being built by Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) will make its first flight in a year. A formal contract with HAL is currently pending final approval.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby skher » 01 Oct 2008 12:41

shiv wrote:
vavinash wrote:
In other words without knowing what the IAF's exact requirements are how come we on the forum are searching for exact An 32 replacements? Do we have information that this is exactly what the IAF wants? Where has that information been made public?

What are the reasons that make us say that an MTA might nor fulfil the IAF's requirements?


interesting point,saar.
In this age of RTI and the World Wide Web,would publishing GSQR/RFPs publicly on a closely guarded website (protected by Not To be Revealed Organization) endanger national security?

AFAIK,kagazi kaam didn't interest our officers very much...they wanted the thing dispensed as quickly as possible.....what better way than the internet.Copy from three sources,Paste,attach tender & form,Publish.
No middleman needed.

P.S.:Being the world leader in IT, we do have good cyber security,right?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rupesh » 01 Oct 2008 18:53

New head for Air Command

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: S. Radhakrishnan will take over as Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Southern Air Command here on Wednesday. Commissioned into the fighter stream of the Indian Air Force in 1970, Air Marshal Radhakrishnan is an alumnus of the National Defence Academy.

He is a qualified flying instructor and a fighter combat leader and has flown over 4,000 hours on a variety of combat and trainer aircraft.

He has held a variety of operational and staff appointments during his career. His operational assignments include command of a frontline fighter squadron and an Air Defence Director Centre in the sensitive Rajasthan sector.

http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/01/stories/2008100155490600.htm

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 01 Oct 2008 20:47

Lalmohan wrote:
turbo props are basically gas turbines that are used to drive propellors - therefore it is a means of adding considerably more power to a low air speed application. transports operating out of short airstrips require high power at low airspeeds - which is great for high lift, but then these powerplants (and aircraft configurations) are unable to fly at high speeds (with low drag for moderate lift). the turbofan is a turbojet with a small amount of 'bypass' that in simple terms improves the economy of the engine allowing for good high speed cruising ability. if you need brute strength and don't care about range, then turbojets are better. turbofans offer good high speed with some economy. turbo props offer good economy and low speed power, and piston engines offer very good economy at low speed high power


There seems to be some effort to build a "geared turbofan" now that is neither turbofan nor turboprop but is quieter and more fuel efficient.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Raj Malhotra » 01 Oct 2008 23:28

Lalmohan wrote:
Raj Malhotra wrote:I don't know whether it is correct but I have been given to understand that Turboprop are required for Short take off and landing on rough semi prepared forward airfields.

Turbofans normally have problem of requiring longer airstrip for take off and landing, paved airstrip to acquire speed to take off, higher chances of ingestion of foreign material and difficulty of reversing on its own power.


turbo props are basically gas turbines that are used to drive propellors - therefore it is a means of adding considerably more power to a low air speed application. transports operating out of short airstrips require high power at low airspeeds - which is great for high lift, but then these powerplants (and aircraft configurations) are unable to fly at high speeds (with low drag for moderate lift). the turbofan is a turbojet with a small amount of 'bypass' that in simple terms improves the economy of the engine allowing for good high speed cruising ability. if you need brute strength and don't care about range, then turbojets are better. turbofans offer good high speed with some economy. turbo props offer good economy and low speed power, and piston engines offer very good economy at low speed high power


I generally know what turboprop and turbofans are! but was trying to discuss whether MTA will be one solution to all problems or turboprops are still required.

shiv wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:
turbo props are basically gas turbines that are used to drive propellors - therefore it is a means of adding considerably more power to a low air speed application. transports operating out of short airstrips require high power at low airspeeds - which is great for high lift, but then these powerplants (and aircraft configurations) are unable to fly at high speeds (with low drag for moderate lift). the turbofan is a turbojet with a small amount of 'bypass' that in simple terms improves the economy of the engine allowing for good high speed cruising ability. if you need brute strength and don't care about range, then turbojets are better. turbofans offer good high speed with some economy. turbo props offer good economy and low speed power, and piston engines offer very good economy at low speed high power


There seems to be some effort to build a "geared turbofan" now that is neither turbofan nor turboprop but is quieter and more fuel efficient.


Geared turbofan is still very much a turbofan, just has gears to obtain differential speeds in spools for better fuel economy

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby A Sharma » 02 Oct 2008 03:20

From Sainik Samachar

The Indian Air Force participated in the multinational combat air exercise, Red Flag 08, for the first time at the invitation of the United States Air Force (USAF) from August 9-23 at Nellis Air Force Base in the US.
The IAF contingent comprised of 91 officers and 156 personnel below officers rank, including 10 members of Garud IAF special force team, led by Gp Capt D Choudhury. Gp Capt Ajay Rathore was the exercise co-ordinator. The team participated with eight SU-30 MK-I aircraft, two IL-78 air-to-air refuellers and one IL-76 transport aircraft. Red Flag is an advance aerial combat training exercise providing realistic training (under combat conditions) hosted at Nellis Air Force Base, Navada and Eielson Air Force Base, Alaska. It was originally conceived in 1975.
In a typical exercise, Blue Forces (friendly) engaged Red Forces (hostile) in realistic aerial combat situations. Blue Forces were made up of units from Air Combat Command, Air Mobility Command, US Air Forces, Europe, Pacific Air Forces, Air National Guard, US Air Force Reserve, US Army, US Navy, US Marine Corps, Canadian Air Force as well as other allied air forces. They were led by a Blue Forces Commander who coordinated the units in an “employment plan”.
Prior to the main exercise at Nellis, the IAF contingent during the work-up phase at Mountain Home Air Base in Idaho, US flew more than 100 sorties in what can be termed as a 'cost effective' deployment with the team making full use of the training infrastructure made available to them. The format of the deployment followed was 'crawl, walk and run' - a term used for a systematic increase in the pace and scope of exercise and combat manoeuvring. During this, IAF team participated in air defence mission, offensive air operations, large force engagements and dynamic targeting. For this purpose, squadrons of USAF, F-16s and F-15s were in flying missions with IAF aircraft and the challenge which IAF team faced was to adapt itself to the complex and advanced network-centricity of USAF. The IAF special force, Garud practiced hostage rescue operations in urban warfare scenario.
The tough and prestigious exercise formally began at Air Force Base Nellis, Navada with inaugural briefings and mission planning by the participating Air Forces. IAF with SU-30s, the French Air Force with Rafale, South Korean Air Force with F-15s and US Air Force with F-15s and F-16s participated in the exercise.
Exercise Red Flag provided a realistic war situation in which the Blue Force pilots had all possible odds 'thrown' at them. Availability of a large air-to-air range with threat replication contributed to the tremendous training value of the exercise. The replication of the air war saw the IAF's SU-30 aircraft participating in suppression of enemy air defence (SEAD) air-to-air and air-to-ground missions. The IL-78 tankers and USAF AWACS were in active support role.
Addressing the participating air warriors, Contingent Commander Gp Capt D Choudhury said, "We have trained long and hard for this day. It is the time to showcase our professionalism. I have total faith and confidence in you. The world is watching us, so gentlemen lets show them what we are made up of.” Air Marshal PV Naik, Vice Chief of Air Staff, Indian Air Force visited the team IAF along with Lt Gen Loyd Utterback, Commander 13th Air Force, USAF, Hawai on August 15. During the course of visit, Air Marshal Naik attended the exercise briefings and witnessed flying and exercise debriefs. He also visited the combined air and space operation centre at the base. He had a detailed interaction with the air crew on how their missions were progressing. He congratulated the technicians for 100 per cent serviceability rate.
Speaking to the mediapersons on the side-lines of his visit, Air Marshal Naik said, “I am of the opinion that the relations between countries are best started by the Armed Forces. India and USA have been natural friends for a long time and they are getting closer and closer. We are looking for increased cooperation in future. Network- centric warfare capability is vital and indispensable in today's warfare. IAF is a network-enabled air force and we are progressing towards complete network-centricity very fast. Network-centricity involves linking the ground, air and space assets together so as to have complete situational awareness. For this, we are in the process of laying a network of fibre optics data links called the AF Net which will be a part of the Integration Air Command and Control System (IACCS). The integration of operational data link on the airborne platforms of IAF will complete the chain. The connectivity of platforms will be “written” on them. In the month of October we are expecting the AWACS which will be a crucial link in our network-centricity." Lt Gen Loyd Utterback also addressed the air warriors and said, “I have flown down from Hawai to meet you all. The USAF and IAF together form an incredible team. I have been planning to get the IAF team in Red Flag and it has now materialised for peace and security in the region. I am looking forward to work more with you.”
The IAF special force commandos, Garuds, successfully demonstrated their mission capability during the exercise Red Flag, when they neutralised an enemy radar site capturing an airfield and carrying out combat search and rescue operations in Navada desert.
On August 21, the exercise entered into its final 'run' phase. During this phase of the exercise, a present-day air campaign is replicated in which opposition forces, or the 'aggressors' F16 and F15s, were the air-to- air and air-to-ground threats to the Blue Land and its force. Surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), such as SA2, SA3, SA6 and SA8, along with long and short range quick reaction missiles, were always present to neutralise the friendly Blue Forces. The Red Land always kept shifting their SAM sites making it difficult for the Blue Forces.
An interesting aspect of the air war between the Red and the Blue Forces was that the 'aggressors' used all possible means to gather intelligence from the Blue Forces. This they used against the Blue Forces in air. Thus it was imperative on the part of all the Blue Force personnel not to give away any information to unauthorised person as he or she could be a Red Land 'spy'.
The success of the missions in these air campaigns was dependent on the situational awareness of all persons involved. Hence, the network-centric operations were the pivots on which the difference of life and death rested. The challenge during the exercise for the team IAF had been to adapt to the USAF network and also carry out 'stand alone' tasks simultaneously. The young IAF pilots did this with amazing dexterity.
Capt Marcus 'Spike' Wilson of the USAF Aggressors, in his appreciation of the team IAF, said, “IAF is a world class air force with great aircraft and great leadership. It's a great training opportunity for USAF and IAF to integrate our assets in training environment. We would like to have IAF here as a regular participant”.
During extreme heat conditions there was a tendency of the flying machines to develop snags such as leaks in hydraulic systems, engine oil gear box etc. The performance of avionics system also becomes erratic as integrated circuits develop problems in extreme heat conditions However, due to proper planning and hard work of IAF technicians, aircraft serviceability was kept high at all times.
Till now, 21 countries including US, UK, Denmark, Norway, South Korea, Israel, Italy, Egypt, Germany, Sweden, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Spain, Netherland and Portugal, have participated in Red Flag exercise. India and France had the honour of participating in this prestigious exercise for the first time.

-Wg Cdr S M Sharma


ImageImage

s sharma
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby s sharma » 02 Oct 2008 11:15

Hello All BRFite's,
I am a first time commentor, but a long time reader and follower of BR. Just to advice on the aforementioned article by Wg Cdr S M Sharma, particularly the last line: It was the 'First Time' for India and South Korea and not India and France as stated. France has been taking regular participation in Red as well as Green Flag for many years.
Thanks!

Hi,
your username has been changed to 's sharma'.
tell me if you prefer something else.
It has to be human sounding,
regards,
Rahul.

uddu
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby uddu » 02 Oct 2008 16:05

What our Bhandar politicians are trying to steal from the Navy. It is astonishing to note that there is no civilian airport in Goa.

Indian Navy Not to Shift their Base from Goa
Link

Panaji, Oct 2: The Indian Navy will not shift their Goa base elsewhere as the huge naval expansion plan at INS Hansa base is in the pipeline, top naval official said today.

Squadron of Mig 29 will be based in Goa while we will also have light combat aircrafts coming in. There are lot of plans and being defence plans we cannot open it to everybody," Indian Navy's Chief Staff Officer (Air) Comd B S Parhar said.

"Few years down the line there are lot of inductions planned. The maintenance and other facilities too are planned alongside which will require the space," he stated.

The Indian Navy for the first time today cleared air over the allegations that it has been hogging land at Dabolim airbase restraining the expansion of this airport, which is increasingly getting strained.

Goa's political leaders including former member of parliament Churchill Alemao have been raking up the issue of Navy's bullying attitude.

Participating in the discussion organised by Goa Chamber of Commerce and Industries (GCCI), Goa's Rajya Sabha member Shantaram Naik bitterly criticised Indian Navy for land holdings hindering the Dabolim airport expansion plans.

Naik stated that Rs 500-crore Dabolim airport expansion plans are forced to be curtailed due to Indian Navy's non cooperation. The airport was handed over to the Indian Navy post-Goa liberation and is managed by them.

Comdt Parhar snubbed allegations that that the Indian Navy is absolutely not posing any hurdle in expansion plan as it clearly understands the requirement of airport expansion.

"Military airfield is military airfield… It's difficult to be established elsewhere. Everything needs a space and here (in Goa) we have lot of plans," he said.

Apparently disturbed with the negative media publicity to the Indian Navy over the airport expansion, Comdt Parhar said that they have a purpose to stay at that place. 'The purpose has not come just two days back. The land was groomed to the stage what you see today," Comdt Parhar added.

He said that the Indian Navy will continue contributing for the civil aviation movement on this airport.

The Naval officer pointed out that they have opened the airport for 24 hours operations curtailing the naval flying hours. "We do understand the requirement of tourism industry and hence we are not just looking after the military requirements," he said.

H.B.Krishna
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby H.B.Krishna » 02 Oct 2008 21:24

shiv wrote:
There seems to be some effort to build a "geared turbofan" now that is neither turbofan nor turboprop but is quieter and more fuel efficient.


Deeyar Doc,
How is this "geared" turbofan different from variable inlet/outlet? I am getting no idea...and "how the stuff works dot com" yeilded no results :wink:
Some gyaan plz

Lisa
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Lisa » 02 Oct 2008 23:49

In this weeks Jane's it is stated that the Indian Air Force is planning an exercise modeled on Red Flag. It is estimated that the first such meet will take place in 2-3 years time.

shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 03 Oct 2008 06:19

H.B.Krishna wrote:
shiv wrote:
There seems to be some effort to build a "geared turbofan" now that is neither turbofan nor turboprop but is quieter and more fuel efficient.


Deeyar Doc,
How is this "geared" turbofan different from variable inlet/outlet? I am getting no idea...and "how the stuff works dot com" yeilded no results :wink:
Some gyaan plz


The turboprop uses gears and appears like a propeller driven aircraft

The turbofan uses no gears and the large bypass blades of the turbofan spin on the same shaft as the core engine so that they spin at the same speed.

In a geared turbofan - the engine ends up looking like a a turbofan engine but the large blades do not spin on the same shaft but go through a special reduction gearbox so that they spin slower and are more efficient while the core engine can spin faster and be more efficient.

The engine (white one)
Image

The gearbox
Image

Source

PaulJI
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby PaulJI » 03 Oct 2008 15:22

shiv wrote:The turboprop uses gears and appears like a propeller driven aircraft

A turboprop does not "appear like" a propellor-driven aircraft, it is a propellor-driven aircraft - one in which the propellor is driven by a turbine.

There are two different things here.

1. The source of power. This can be a turbine, a piston engine, an electric engine (used on models, & some UAVs) - whatever.

2. The method of propulsion, i.e. what drives the aircraft. In this case, a propellor. In other cases, a jet. Or in a turbofan, a combination of a jet & a ducted fan.

shiv
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Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 03 Oct 2008 19:59

PaulJI wrote:
shiv wrote:The turboprop uses gears and appears like a propeller driven aircraft

A turboprop does not "appear like" a propellor-driven aircraft, it is a propellor-driven aircraft - one in which the propellor is driven by a turbine..



Paulji my choice of words was imprecise - but if we must dig into semantics - a turboprop per se is merely the power plant of some (most) propeller driven aircraft nowadays. But a turboprop alone is not a propeller driven aircraft - it is the power plant. And when that power plant is fixed on an aircraft it becomes a propeller driven aircraft. Sorry to nitpick but thought I might do that too while we are at it. :)

Just to contrast from a propfan that is a turbofan engine but appears like an engine with a propeller, while a propeller in a duct as in ducted fan may appear like a jet.

Raj Malhotra
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Raj Malhotra » 03 Oct 2008 20:27

Re Shiv

Nobody is finding fault with you, we are all trying to understand the issue ourselves. Pls note that in the present context of thread, we were trying to discuss whether a Turbo"prop" aircraft is required to replace An-32. In this context geared turbofan are not turbo"props". I think even wikipedia would be good source of basic information in this context.

Geared turbofans are being used to save fuel but in context of Himalayas we are talking of "props" that can take off from (i) short (ii) unpaved (iii) hot (iv) high airstrips (v) with less danger of foreign material ingestion and with (vi) capability to reverse after landing.

Hence USA continues to order massive number of C-27 and C-130s inspite of having production line of C-5 & C-17.

If Turboprop is required then we have to decide the size also and also consider whether MTA variant is possible (as it would be equivalent to C-130, An-70 or even A400 concepts)

Kakarat
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kakarat » 03 Oct 2008 23:19

India to reactivate another strategic airbase on China border

With incidents of transgressions on the unresolved Sino-Indian border on a high, India is set to reopen another strategic airfield in Eastern Ladakh that will allow rapid induction of troops to the region.

Work on reviving the Fukche Advanced Landing Ground (ALG), situated at an altitude of 4,200 m barely three kilometers away from the Line of Actual Control, is almost complete and the first fixed wing aircraft is expected to land at the airbase within a month.

The army, which is keen to reactivate the airbase that is currently only used as a helicopter landing ground, is working full steam to complete the surfacing works at Fukche before the snow sets in. The airfield, which was out to use during the 1962 war, will be reactivated after a gap of almost four decades.

The airbase will consist of an unpaved surface (kutcha strip) and will be able to accommodate the AN 32 medium lift aircraft of the Indian Air Force. Once reactivated, it will be the second highest landing field in the world.

"Work on the landing ground is almost complete and we hope to finish it within a few days. The strip will be prepared for landings by fixed wing transport aircrafts," a senior Army officer said.

Air Marshal PK Barbora, Commander in Chief of the Western Air Command, confirmed to The Indian Express that the air force would start trial flights on the refurbished airbase as soon as strengthening works are complete.

The officer said that the landing ground could be used for humanitarian relief works and evacuation in case of natural calamities in the region. "The Army is working on the airfield. They should probably be ready in a month's time. Once work is complete, the air force would perform trials on the landing ground," the senior officer said.

The reopening of the Fukche airbase comes months after the Daulat Beg Oldie airfield, situated in the same region near the Karakoram pass, was reactivated by the air force in May, 2008. DBO, as it is known, is the highest airbase in the world and was reactivated for maintaining supplies to troops posted on the border.

However, the third major airfield in Ladakh along the Sino-India border, the Chushul advanced landing ground, which is located at a height of over 5,000 m, will not be reactivated in the near future. A senior army officer said that reopening the Chushul airbase is yet on the MoD's agenda.

India has been reviving a series of advanced landing grounds and helicopter bases along the Sino India border from Ladakh down to the North East. The armed forces have carried out status reports on reactivating these airbases after directive from the PMO on the feasibility of using them for prompting tourism as well as improving the army's reach along the border....

Raj Malhotra
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Raj Malhotra » 04 Oct 2008 10:49

I think we should start exploring the requirement of cheaper V-22 type derivatives for our NE border like B609.


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