Indian Military Aviation

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Dmurphy
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Dmurphy » 21 Oct 2008 12:21

Just a question here.
If its just a 5 seater requirement for medi-evac, why does it have to be an aircraft? Why not a helicopter like ALH? Will have to maintain an extra runway for the a/c's pupose.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 21 Oct 2008 12:41

Dmurphy wrote:Just a question here.
If its just a 5 seater requirement for medi-evac, why does it have to be an aircraft? Why not a helicopter like ALH? Will have to maintain an extra runway for the a/c's pupose.


Speed might be an issue here. Obviously the aircraft is not supposed to be used in places where there are no runways and the ALH type medevacs will have to be used there, but by the same token the ALH cannot match the speed of the conventional fixed wing aircraft. In that sense it would a good idea to form a relay system in that the ALH performs far off pickups and transfers casualties to the landing fields where fixed wing aircraft take over to evacuate the serious casualties out of the region. However, I will admit that I am a bit doubtful on how fully will these aircraft be utilized in such a job requirement for the cost input. In that sense the training option is interesting use...

JMT

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby andy B » 21 Oct 2008 14:48

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:Just a question here.
If its just a 5 seater requirement for medi-evac, why does it have to be an aircraft? Why not a helicopter like ALH? Will have to maintain an extra runway for the a/c's pupose.


Speed might be an issue here. Obviously the aircraft is not supposed to be used in places where there are no runways and the ALH type medevacs will have to be used there, but by the same token the ALH cannot match the speed of the conventional fixed wing aircraft. In that sense it would a good idea to form a relay system in that the ALH performs far off pickups and transfers casualties to the landing fields where fixed wing aircraft take over to evacuate the serious casualties out of the region. However, I will admit that I am a bit doubtful on how fully will these aircraft be utilized in such a job requirement for the cost input. In that sense the training option is interesting use...

JMT

-Vivek


Vivek Saar there is another option we could look at buying the V 22 Osprey. This baby's operational capacity has been validated to a good extent in ongoing middle east ops, it would be a gem of an asset for Indian Armed Forces in North/North East.

I know at this stage it is another BRFite wet dream...but it would be an amazing addition in terms of mobility. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Lalmohan » 21 Oct 2008 16:47

the osprey is very expensive to own and operate, and i am not convinced yet that its operational utility has been proven beyond doubt. also, its designed for sea level operations, in the NE it might have some hot and high challenges

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vavinash » 21 Oct 2008 17:08

THe thing has the RCS of 2 Boeing 707's. Its a sitting duck for SAM's and MANPADS.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby andy B » 22 Oct 2008 06:17

vavinash wrote:THe thing has the RCS of 2 Boeing 707's. Its a sitting duck for SAM's and MANPADS.


Do you have anything that supports your argument in terms of having a high RCS last time i checked the V22 has got composite rotors that should in theory reduce RCS, I will however do a bit of research and see if I can find more on specifically the RCS and IR.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby andy B » 22 Oct 2008 09:02

vavinash wrote:THe thing has the RCS of 2 Boeing 707's. Its a sitting duck for SAM's and MANPADS.


Your quote of the Osprey having the RCS of two 707s comes from that defense industry article I read it through and it seems more of a negative impression build up excercise more than anything else not to mention using outdated data IMHO.
I read through most of the bottom pages and found that the Osprey would be more survivable than a traditional chopper due to various features such as separation of engines, comprehensive ECM (this was found inadequate in the start and is in the process of being upgraded), IR suppressors in engine nacelles
An important point per se that needs to be considered would be the op-altitude (max) given the high alt atmos. in the north. In the first link the max altitude is quoted as 25000ft even if we take that with a pinch of sugar that still would be more than enough for our op environ IMHO. :twisted:

Guru's any opinions on this??
Would love to hear something from Vivek and the other gurus on this.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -specs.htm
http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-V-22A-Osprey.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-22_Osprey
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... urvive.htm
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/osprey/
http://www.airforce-technology.com/proj ... specs.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 22 Oct 2008 10:37

Anand Barve wrote:I read through most of the bottom pages and found that the Osprey would be more survivable than a traditional chopper due to various features such as separation of engines, comprehensive ECM (this was found inadequate in the start and is in the process of being upgraded), IR suppressors in engine nacelles
An important point per se that needs to be considered would be the op-altitude (max) given the high alt atmos. in the north. In the first link the max altitude is quoted as 25000ft even if we take that with a pinch of sugar that still would be more than enough for our op environ IMHO.


Anand,

I noticed that Mr. Carlo Kopp has the following sentence in his article:

In rotary wing mode the hover ceiling (OGE) is at 7,100 ft


This is consistent with my estimates as well (although my preliminary results for HC-OGE was in the range of ~8,000 ft). This number is a telling tale in itself. Note that we are talking about Hover Ceiling (OGE), which means that the V-22 is attempting to simply hover at this altitude with no forward speed and more importantly, possessing no capability to initiate climb at any vertical speeds. All of the available power from both engines is being used to simply stand still in air.

Under this condition, which represents the minimum spectrum of requirements from rotary wing helicopters in the operating environment that the IAF and the IA operate, other helicopters like the ALH and Mi-26 surpass the V-22 easily. In Laddakh the mean altitude above ground is ~15,000 ft. Leh is at ~10,000 ft. In the east the narrow base of the valleys themselves are around ~7000 ft. A typical lift off from a high altitude airbase requires excess power to initiate a rapid upward climb. The minimum of this being 500 ft/min. All of this means that the V-22 cannot hover, let alone operate under combat conditions, in these regions.

Further, fitting of things like IR suppressors sucks the life out of engines. You can lose up to a few thousand feet in attainable altitudes with a IR suppressor at the end of the engine. This is of course not a problem in the plains, but up in the hills, it reduces your deployment capabilities.

Even if the V-22 could be made to fly into a region bounded by hills such as the NE, every descent requiring transition to hover would be dangerous as hell for the crews involved. Its difficult enough to fly standard helicopters in those hills under normal flight conditions. Even then the margin of safety on engine power etc is near zero for high performance helicopters. The V-22 does not even begin to enter the picture.

JMT

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby andy B » 22 Oct 2008 10:50

^^^
Vivek,
Firstly thank you for shedding light on my question your answer makes perfect sense
I was kind of expecting an answer on the lines of what you just said. I guess this revolutionary aircraft would need further evolution in order to operate in the extreme environ that we have in the northern sectors.
On the evolution note do you reckon in the near future if the V 22 was fitted with proper swiveling jet turbines instead of turboprops would that make a significant difference???

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Raj Malhotra » 22 Oct 2008 14:05

V-22 has to land and take off in hover mode only (??) or something like engines tilted at 45* can do the trick by allowing a short rolling take off and landing in hot and high conditions from short rough unpaved airstrip?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby PaulJI » 22 Oct 2008 15:07

vivek_ahuja wrote:I noticed that Mr. Carlo Kopp has the following sentence in his article:

In rotary wing mode the hover ceiling (OGE) is at 7,100 ft


This is consistent with my estimates as well (although my preliminary results for HC-OGE was in the range of ~8,000 ft). This number is a telling tale in itself. Note that we are talking about Hover Ceiling (OGE), which means that the V-22 is attempting to simply hover at this altitude with no forward speed and more importantly, possessing no capability to initiate climb at any vertical speeds. All of the available power from both engines is being used to simply stand still in air.

Under this condition, which represents the minimum spectrum of requirements from rotary wing helicopters in the operating environment that the IAF and the IA operate, other helicopters like the ALH and Mi-26 surpass the V-22 easily. In Laddakh the mean altitude above ground is ~15,000 ft. Leh is at ~10,000 ft. In the east the narrow base of the valleys themselves are around ~7000 ft. A typical lift off from a high altitude airbase requires excess power to initiate a rapid upward climb. The minimum of this being 500 ft/min. All of this means that the V-22 cannot hover, let alone operate under combat conditions, in these regions.

Further, fitting of things like IR suppressors sucks the life out of engines. You can lose up to a few thousand feet in attainable altitudes with a IR suppressor at the end of the engine. This is of course not a problem in the plains, but up in the hills, it reduces your deployment capabilities.

Even if the V-22 could be made to fly into a region bounded by hills such as the NE, every descent requiring transition to hover would be dangerous as hell for the crews involved. Its difficult enough to fly standard helicopters in those hills under normal flight conditions. Even then the margin of safety on engine power etc is near zero for high performance helicopters. The V-22 does not even begin to enter the picture.

JMT

-Vivek

According to published reports I've found, the OGE hover ceiling of the Mi-26 is even less than that, at 1800-2000 metres. Are you saying the OGE hover ceiling of the Mi-26 is much higher? If so, can you say what it is?

The IGE hover ceiling is always significantly higher, e.g. 10000 ft vs 6700 ft IGE/OGE hover ceiling for the S-92, 9800 ft vs 5500 ft for the MH-47E - and an extra 20C knocks 1900/1800 ft off those figures. Boeing state that the loaded HOGE ceiling of the V-22 (comparisons are difficult, as figures are often given for unloaded helicopters - perhaps that's where the 7100 ft figure comes from) is only 5400 ft, ceiling 25000 ft, rate of climb 2300 ft/min.

Helicopter landings & take-offs above the HOGE ceiling are quite common, & accomplished by transition between hover & forward motion in ground effect. I don't know how well the V-22 can do that compared to a helicopter, though it does have the option (where there's space) of a short rolling take-off, which enables greater T/O weight & T/O altitude. Perhaps it can land the same way.

From these figures, it doesn't seem possible to say anything definitive about how the V-22 compares with heavy helicopters in mountains. Far worse than the very much lighter Dhruv, but in general, light helicopters have much better ceilings than heavy, so that's to be expected. Really high mountains are light helicopter territory.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 22 Oct 2008 18:56

PaulJI wrote:According to published reports I've found, the OGE hover ceiling of the Mi-26 is even less than that, at 1800-2000 metres. Are you saying the OGE hover ceiling of the Mi-26 is much higher? If so, can you say what it is?


I have also seen that number and again, it is inconsistent with the aircraft data unless it is defined for a loaded condition. In the loaded case I will agree that the HC-OGE of the Mi-26 is in the range of around 1800 metres (5900 ft), which of course these reports somehow don't mention. But the load here means around 20,000 Kg, which is a very high value. But that means that if this payload capability is gradually traded for altitude, the Mi-26's HC-OGE goes much higher. In fact, in the empty cabin condition, it can go up to 17,500 feet but that's again the pure HC value, in that there is no reserve power left to allow any rate of climb, which makes that value purely academic.

It is for this reason that I avoid the HC-OGE condition analysis. What makes the analysis more useful is to include power requirement for the minimum Combat Ceiling Rate of Climb values, which is 500 ft/min. This being the general minimum value of ROC required (Depending on terrain, the minimum may go higher). Under these conditions the HOGE (not HC-OGE) values reduce by few thousand feet. Arguably, the Combat Ceiling minimum could still serve some purpose because as the helicopter transitions to forward flight, the power requirement reduces further, allowing a portion of the existing power to be used for generating the required ROC. It all depends on the required mission profile.

Boeing state that the loaded HOGE ceiling of the V-22 (comparisons are difficult, as figures are often given for unloaded helicopters - perhaps that's where the 7100 ft figure comes from) is only 5400 ft, ceiling 25000 ft, rate of climb 2300 ft/min.


The 7100 ft value (in my case, ~8000 ft) is indeed for the unloaded case. The 5,400 ft value seems appropriate for the loaded V-22.

Helicopter landings & take-offs above the HOGE ceiling are quite common, & accomplished by transition between hover & forward motion in ground effect. I don't know how well the V-22 can do that compared to a helicopter, though it does have the option (where there's space) of a short rolling take-off, which enables greater T/O weight & T/O altitude. Perhaps it can land the same way.


This is true, but as far as I know, most Military helicopter users require the ability of the helicopter to be able to hover OGE at the same altitude even if it intends to use Ground Effect to land in the case of helipads that are perched on hilltops without the luxury of a relatively long landing ground to allow a build up of forward velocity while still in ground effect. Unfortunately this is the requirement in the Himalayas.

From these figures, it doesn't seem possible to say anything definitive about how the V-22 compares with heavy helicopters in mountains. Far worse than the very much lighter Dhruv, but in general, light helicopters have much better ceilings than heavy, so that's to be expected. Really high mountains are light helicopter territory.


The Mi-26 is the only heavy helicopter I can vouch for right now as far as numbers go. There, the comparison is favorable compared to the V-22. In fact, the Indian Army has praised the Mi-26 for its heavy duty work (relative, of course) in the Laddakh mountains (~15,000 ft) and the Indian North-East.

As far as the Dhruv comparison is concerned, it does perform better, and the only reason I had mentioned its performance is because the discussion had originally started around the Med-evac Relay requirement being addressed by NAL.

JMT

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 24 Oct 2008 09:35

http://deccanherald.com/Content/Oct242008/national2008102496968.asp
India to develop airfields on China border
DH News Service, New Delhi:


India is constructing a number of airfields close to the border with China to counter any potential threat from the neighbouring country.

“Thirteen operational roads are to be completed in Arunachal Pradesh. We are also constructing airports (airfields) close to the international border,” External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee said in the Rajya Sabha on Thursday.

Responding to a question on the Chinese incursions along the Line of Actual Control, Mukherjee attributed these to the “different perceptions” of the two countries.

Dispute area

“There is a disputed area of 38,000 sq km that we say China has illegally occupied. In addition, there are 5,000 sq km that Pakistan has ceded to China from the part of Kashmir it controls. China thinks Arunachal Pradesh is part of its territory.”

“There are these different perceptions and, therefore, there are incursions,” said Mukherjee, adding that the two countries had worked out a mechanism to deal with the issue.

Agreement

Both the countries had reached an agreement in 1993 to maintain peace and tranquility on the frontier. Thereafter, in 2003, they had appointed their special representatives to work towards a solution to the border dispute. The special representatives had met 12 times in the last five years, the minister said.
Apart from this, India and China had exchanged maps of the border - as each country perceived it - in the middle sector, but were yet to do so for the east and the west sectors, Mukherjee added.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby narayana » 24 Oct 2008 10:57

“There is a disputed area of 38,000 sq km that we say China has illegally occupied. In addition, there are 5,000 sq km that Pakistan has ceded to China from the part of Kashmir it controls. China thinks Arunachal Pradesh is part of its territory.”



I Wonder Why we dont think Tibet or sindh as a part of our territory,instead Gracefully Cede Aksai chin and POK to others,and we cant even tresspass into LOC,while chinese barge into indian territory just because they THINK its their territory

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SaiK » 24 Oct 2008 18:22

cause, "we" collectively don't think its our territory. /honestly... we are not having a view of national integration anymore.. people have been totally focused on aspects that is more basic than these issues. /ot

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Lalmohan » 24 Oct 2008 20:56

SaiK wrote:cause, "we" collectively don't think its our territory. /honestly... we are not having a view of national integration anymore.. people have been totally focused on aspects that is more basic than these issues. /ot


just look at Raj-complete moron-Thackeray for proof of the above

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby kit » 25 Oct 2008 06:36

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/IAF_ ... 966474.cms

Interesting read from TOI . How did they get the figure of 55 squadrons for a simultaneous conflict with China and Pakistan ?

I guess everyone realizes that conflict with China means conflict with BOTH China and Pakistan but not necessarily vice versa.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 25 Oct 2008 07:10

55 sqdn/1000 aircraft is a figure IAF has been touting from early 90's or even earlier.
GoI gave sanction in principle to this plan.

now, it is nothing more than a nominal figure keeping in mind IAF's job definition and not one arrived at by a deep study of recent developments, unless IAF has conducted such a study which we don't know of ! :wink:
knowing ToI, I think the former is closer to the truth.

that being said, 1000 fighters would actually give IAF very potent capabilities, given the fact that the original aircraft around which this plan was mooted were much less capable than today's a/c. even keeping in mind developments by the adversary, the relative capability is much higher.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby kit » 25 Oct 2008 07:34

Now why did i think some "Rand" like study was did some where :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby K Mehta » 26 Oct 2008 10:58

x-posting from LCA thread.
LCA induction in 2011: Antony
Defence minister A K Antony on Saturday said the induction of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), ‘Tejas’ into the armoury of the Indian Air Force (IAF) will take place by the end of 2011.

Addressing the media after witnessing a spectacular display of aircraft built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) here, Antony expressed confidence that the induction and first delivery would be a reality. “The LCA is expected to get final operational clearance by the end of 2010. It has been one of the most hotly-debated topics. We have overcome a stage where discussions were on to consider abandoning the project, due to costs involved in its production,” said the defence minister.

IJT too

Anthony said the induction of the IJT (Intermediate Jet Trainer) into the forces will begin at the earliest. “It is high time we replace the Kiran aircraft. Once the IJT is ready, our pilots will be able to get better training facilities,” he said.

He then added that the ALH (Advanced Light Helicopter) Dhruv is being operated successfully in high altitude areas like Siachin and Leh. “Soon, it will be weaponised. It is expected to get operational clearance in December 2009, and will be inducted into the forces the following year. “

Responding to a query on the delivery of Hawks, the minister said the issue will be taken up with HAL officials at a detailed review meeting.

Modernisation

Responding to the latest report from the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG), which has raised the question of the defence preparedness of the forces, Anthony said, “The government is committed to speedy modernisation and restructuring of the Indian armed forces. Whatever has happened is in the past. In the last 17 years, we were unable to provide the necessary radars. But this has changed. Things are now moving fast. Most modern radars are coming. We are on track. The government will provide the Air Force with whatever modern equipment needs to be replaced,” he assured.

On the new Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2008 which allows 26% FDI, he said that the government is willing to relax it further on a case-specific basis.

Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major said the IAF would purchase 126 Hawk Mk 132 DDM for MMRCA aircraft soon, as light evaluations are over. He added that out of the seven squadrons of the LCA, two (with 20 or more trainer aircraft) will have the IOC-cleared engines. “The remaining five squadrons will have a new engine,” he explained.
The air chief also stated that once the ALH is weaponised, the weapons are integrated to make it the most lethal.

Showcase
Earlier, HAL showcased its IJT, Dhruv and Hawk Mk 132 and the NAL, its Saras transport aircraft in a spectacular manoeuvre display of their flying prowess. HAL chairman Ashok K Baweja and senior officers from the Ministry of Defence were present at the show.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby kit » 26 Oct 2008 11:31

A bit dated but relevant

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/oct/17spec.html

But by the turn of the century, China has caught up with India and powered ahead. To an extent this was possible due to the fact that China decided to concentrate all its energy and resources on missile technology at the expense of aircraft. In India, the strong manned aircraft lobby led by the myopic Indian Air Force treated missiles as rivals and never really took interest in their development. Even more fundamental problems plague Indian research in science and technology.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby renukb » 26 Oct 2008 12:05

Despite all of this reality, GOI is not spending 3.5 - 4 % of our GDP on defense spending :evil:

CAG report exposes India not ready for war Vishal Thapar / CNN-IBN

New Delhi: Is India ready for war? The Comptroller and Auditor General has grave doubts. His latest audit report on the armed forces comes up with two stunning disclosures.

One, that more than half of India's submarines are not battle-ready. Two, that its radars are too old and too few to provide any credible defence against an air attack.

The report reveals that at any time, only 48 per cent of Indian Naval ageing submarines are available for waging war, should India be attacked. The rest are in repair and refit.

Age is such an issue that 50 per cent of the submarines are in the last stages of their prescribed life. Sixty-three per cent of the fleet would be ready for phase-out by 2012

Not only are the submarines too old, the numbers are too few - way below approved force levels.

India's fleet of an estimated 16 submarines is just 67 per cent of the force levels approved 23 years ago.

The bad news doesn't end here. The CAG has now confirmed an earlier report by CNN-IBN that the Navy's main strike weapon, the submarine-launched Klub land-attack cruise missile, is malfunctioning.

Too old, too few - it's much the same story with radars which are at the heart of India's air defences, which are based on an outdated, 37-year-old plan.

Shortage of key radars was to the tune of 76 per cent, making India particularly vulnerable to air attacks.

The audit report suggests that the IAF just doesn't have the equipment to ensure a credible air defence for India.

The CAG report is a warning that the lack of nimbleness in India's defence planning and procurements can be exploited by India's enemies.

It is also an indictment of the lack of hygiene and common sense in India's defence acquisition process.



Radars too few, submarines too old: CAG

New Delhi, Oct. 25: The navy’s silent arm is going bust and the IAF’s air defence coverage is little over a quarter of what it should be.

The sputtering submarines of the navy and the gaping holes in air surveillance mean the country’s military machine is severely deficient.

These are the revelations in the latest report of the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) released this week.

In March this year, a similar audit by the CAG found that India had bought a warship from the US (INS Jalashva) after agreeing not to use it for offensive action without informing the Pentagon.

The findings of the CAG in its report (PA 5 of 2008) about the performance of the Indian Navy and the Indian Air Force have castigated the government for going slow on acquisitions that are critical for defence and in times of war.

Without saying so explicitly, there is little doubt that the CAG suspects that the navy and the air force will be found seriously wanting in the event of an emergency.

Defence minister A.K. Antony admitted today that air surveillance was questionable because of the shortage of radars. He also admitted that there was a shortage of submarines for the navy.

In its report, the CAG said that despite improvements in security technologies, the government had not approved the air force’s revised procurement plans for 1983-2000 and 1987-2007.

The upshot is that the IAF’s Air Defence Ground Environment System — the heart of the country’s air defence system — has to be run with critically small numbers of medium-powered and low-level surveillance radars.

The CAG report looked into the performance of the equipment till 2007 and predicted that in 2008, the IAF would “be compelled to operate with only 26 per cent of the requirement”.

It said there was a 53 per cent shortage of medium-powered radars, and that the IAF was working with only 24 per cent of the required low-level transportable radars.

In the navy, the audit found that over half the submarines (a total of 16) had completed 75 per cent of their operational life. Two Foxtrot submarines were being run beyond their operational life but were not functioning most of the time.

In four years till 2012, 63 per cent of the fleet (10 submarines, probably) would have outlived their time. The first of the new-generation submarines, the French Scorpene, that India has contracted is expected to be inducted in 2012.


Despite the ageing submarine fleet, the navy is operating without a deep submergence rescue vehicle.

The CAG report has also found that the Russian-origin Klub missiles for the kilo-class submarines were not functioning in a fail-proof manner. New sonars bought for Rs 167 crore were not performing either.


Antony admits India’s aerial vulnerability

A day after the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) pointed out that India’s security was vulnerable to hostile aerial attacks, Defence Minister AK Antony has acknowledged that obsolete and insufficient number of radars held by the Indian Air Force constitute “a serious problem”.

Antony said, “The process of induction of radars began in 1991, but we were not able to provide the necessary air defence equipment due to diverse reasons. We are facing problems even now. New radars have been inducted, but it will take time to tide over the shortcomings.”

The CAG report has pointed out that outdated and inadequate numbers of surveillance radars held by the Indian Air Force make India’s security vulnerable to potential aerial threats. The country’s air defence system — a complex network of radars, anti-aircraft guns and air and missile bases — is based on technology inducted way back in 1976.

The national auditor said the government failed to approve the IAF’s modernisation despite “growing magnitude of potential aerial threats.” The report revealed shortage of medium power radars needed for ground control and intercept was as high as 53 per cent of the projected requirement. Besides, holding of low-level transportable radars was merely 24 per cent of the actual requirement of the IAF.

Not even half of the Indian Navy’s ageing submarine fleet is operationally ready to wage war, said the CAG. It criticised the defence ministry for not adhering to its submarine induction plan.

“At present, the navy holds just 67 per cent of the force level envisaged in its 1985 plan. Due to ageing fleet and prolonged refit schedules, the average operational availability of the submarines is as low as 48 per cent,” the CAG said.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Neshant » 26 Oct 2008 12:22

Great video on the Mig-29


----
Wings of the Red Star : Mig-29
(The Last Generation)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mz5Ym-skf0

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Vikram_S » 27 Oct 2008 00:40

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby skher » 27 Oct 2008 01:14

This vertical pic gave me a very,very horizontal idea :idea: .

Can such an aircraft perform complete somersault...flipped full 180 on belly?
If so, is it possible to still have passengers on board who could parachute down just by using the earth's gravity (assuming upper fuselage has a big open door) :?: :!:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kartik » 27 Oct 2008 03:40

what on earth is BRF coming to now ?! :shock:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby andy B » 27 Oct 2008 04:18

skher wrote:This vertical pic gave me a very,very horizontal idea :idea: .

Can such an aircraft perform complete somersault...flipped full 180 on belly?
If so, is it possible to still have passengers on board who could parachute down just by using the earth's gravity (assuming upper fuselage has a big open door) :?: :!:


:shock: :shock: :eek:

Skher Saar are talking about converting the Saras into a thrill seeking adrenaline junkie sky diving platform???

If so count me in... :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Katare » 27 Oct 2008 05:40

Rahul M wrote:55 sqdn/1000 aircraft is a figure IAF has been touting from early 90's or even earlier.
GoI gave sanction in principle to this plan.

now, it is nothing more than a nominal figure keeping in mind IAF's job definition and not one arrived at by a deep study of recent developments, unless IAF has conducted such a study which we don't know of ! :wink:
knowing ToI, I think the former is closer to the truth.

that being said, 1000 fighters would actually give IAF very potent capabilities, given the fact that the original aircraft around which this plan was mooted were much less capable than today's a/c. even keeping in mind developments by the adversary, the relative capability is much higher.


Rahul,

IIRC govt has accepted, in principle, the need for 55 squadrons strength but it has sanctioned only 45 squadron strength for IAF. The current strength of IAF is anywhere 33 to 39.5 squads as per many media reports.

If LCA becomes a success we may have a half decent chance of getting to 45 squadrons, given the steep increase in cost and sophistication of fighter aircrafts since 1970/80, forget about getting to 55 squads in our lifetime.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby HariC » 27 Oct 2008 06:21

Anand Barve wrote:
skher wrote:This vertical pic gave me a very,very horizontal idea :idea: .

Can such an aircraft perform complete somersault...flipped full 180 on belly?
If so, is it possible to still have passengers on board who could parachute down just by using the earth's gravity (assuming upper fuselage has a big open door) :?: :!:


:shock: :shock: :eek:

Skher Saar are talking about converting the Saras into a thrill seeking adrenaline junkie sky diving platform???

If so count me in... :mrgreen:


ahem, skydiving and russian roulette platform.

my bet is 20% of the passengers dropped upside down are going to be parsed by the two meat grinders on the rear fuselage before dispersion into the sky :mrgreen: :mrgreen: darwin awards anyone?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Vivek K » 27 Oct 2008 07:27

India is thinking small. Posturing will not serve if China and Pak launch a combined attack. We need to spend 6% of GDP and buy the 126-200 MRCAs and start building the second line of subs NOW. This is one good CAG report. How come the Navy and Air chiefs are so quiet? They should start pressuring the PMO and parliament ASAP!!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby K Mehta » 27 Oct 2008 11:37

Flying shot of WSI Dhruv
Apart from the current usual crap about radars and submarines problems, the video has a shot of WSI dhruv. First vid of WSI dhruv that I have seen, also nice some cockpit shots of dhruv with Antonyji in it, not new but still cant get enough of them.
Best out of waste.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 27 Oct 2008 13:31

This is one good CAG report. How come the Navy and Air chiefs are so quiet? They should start pressuring the PMO and parliament ASAP!!

Absolutely agree...some amount of fear mongering is absolutely required to ensure that the babus and netas get off their backsides and finalize pending deals, some of whose files they have been sitting on for years.

In that sense, i always welocme alarmist reports since there is a higher chance of action when those reports are out.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby skher » 27 Oct 2008 16:53

HariC wrote:
Anand Barve wrote:
skher wrote:This vertical pic gave me a very,very horizontal idea :idea: .

Can such an aircraft perform complete somersault...flipped full 180 on belly?
If so, is it possible to still have passengers on board who could parachute down just by using the earth's gravity (assuming upper fuselage has a big open door) :?: :!:


:shock: :shock: :eek:

Skher Saar are talking about converting the Saras into a thrill seeking adrenaline junkie sky diving platform???

If so count me in... :mrgreen:


ahem, skydiving and russian roulette platform.

my bet is 20% of the passengers dropped upside down are going to be parsed by the two meat grinders on the rear fuselage before dispersion into the sky :mrgreen: :mrgreen: darwin awards anyone?


My,my.It was a very horizontal idea.

Was commenting the saras has been made to look like an agile fighter aircraft (really looked it was abt to do 180). We're getting better at this photoshop, ppt business..goodie...Rs.$$.
Apologies for the distraction.

sum wrote:
This is one good CAG report. How come the Navy and Air chiefs are so quiet? They should start pressuring the PMO and parliament ASAP!!

Absolutely agree...some amount of fear mongering is absolutely required to ensure that the babus and netas get off their backsides and finalize pending deals, some of whose files they have been sitting on for years.

In that sense, i always welcome alarmist reports since there is a higher chance of action when those reports are out.


It is interesting to note that two years ago MMCRA was announced as a fast-track competition [DDM made it feel like aircraft could be bought as speedily as a new car] to have 126 aircraft, which we'll now receive only four years hence.

Whose horizontal idea in MoD was it to call this "fast-track"?

This procedure makes increase of GDP spend futile.....you have crores and crores pending approval (they are too big to gobble) and eventually these funds get surrendered. By that time,a new RfP is made etc. etc.

Does DPP 2008 address this issue effectively?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby neerajb » 27 Oct 2008 17:09

skher wrote:Was commenting the saras has been made to look like an agile fighter aircraft (really looked it was abt to do 180). We're getting better at this photoshop, ppt business..goodie...Rs.$$.
Apologies for the distraction.


What's the big deal in it (90 degree bank)?



Cheers....

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Lalmohan » 27 Oct 2008 17:27

a sustained 90deg bank (as opposed to a transient manouever during a barrel roll as shown) requires a considerable amount of energy and raises g forces to high levels - neither of which are designed in to normal civil or other transport or utility aircraft. i doubt that saras has been designed with such moves in mind

a barrell roll done properly should not exceed 2g at any stage, therefore most civil aircraft should be able to do it in the hands of an experienced pilot

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby narayana » 29 Oct 2008 10:56

There was a Documentary on discovery channel yesterday on IJT,i saw it accidentally and unfortunately i cud watch only the last few minutes,anyone has a link to it?tried on youtube but couldnt find it.

Thanks in Advance

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby renukb » 29 Oct 2008 16:46

Anything to do with deals signed with Russian aircraft makers?

CAG asks NAL to shelve plans to build 70 seater aircraft
New Delhi, PTI:
http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Oct ... updatenews

The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has asked the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) to virtually shelve its plans to build a 70-seater passenger aircraft citing tardy progress on the 15-seater Saras plane.

The NAL, a laboratory under the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) has been engaged in development of basic trainer aircraft Hansa and 15-seater passenger Saras for the past two decades.

"Keeping in view the poor market demand for Hansa, the tardy progress and cost overrun in development of Saras, Ministry/CSIR may reconsider the proposed plan for development of a 70 seater regional transport aircraft," the CAG said in its report presented to Parliament last week.

The Working Group on CSIR for the 11th Plan had proposed design and development of a 70-seater regional transport aircraft by NAL.

The CAG rapped NAL for importing 28 seats for Saras in July 2002 at a cost of Rs 80 lakh which had not been fitted to the aircraft till date.

"The reasons for non-utlisation of seats even after expiry of five years from the date of receipt were not found on record," the Auditor said, adding that NAL stated in July 2007 that the seats would be installed after the Directorate General of Civil Aviation certified the aircraft.

"Due to advanced procurement of these seats worth Rs 80 lakh, the amount remained blocked for more than five years. CSIR did not offer any comments on the issue," the CAG said.

The CAG also pulled up NAL for using imported items in the development of Hansa, a basic trainer aircraft.

It pointed out that the Research Council of NAL had in March 2000 recommended that priority should be given to indigenous systems, provided there was no basic compromise on technical requirements.

"Scrutiny revealed that in the process of manufacturing of the aircraft, NAL had imported all the components as the work of development of the aircraft was initiated without developing the components," the CAG said.

"Despite the first and foremost objective of 'indigenous development' of aircraft as envisaged in the 1980s, NAL continues to depend on imported components for design and development of Hansa," it said.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kakarat » 29 Oct 2008 17:05

IAF’S Surya Kiran Aerobatic Team (SKAT) to perform in China

The Indian Air Force’s Surya Kiran aerobatic team has reached China today, to perform at Zhuhai Air Show.

An Air Show is held at Zhuhai (on the eastern coast, Near to Shanghai) in China every alternate year. The show is akin to Aero India which is held at Yelahanka Air Base (Bangalore). IAF received an invite to participate in Seventh Chinese Aerospace Exhibition, Zhuhai (from 04 to 09 Nov 08) in early 2007. The Hon’ble RM Shri AK Antony approved the visit of Surya Kiran Aerobatic Team (SKAT). SKAT is proceeding to China to participate in the Aerospace Exhibition and on the return leg, SKAT would also carry out display in Vieng Chan which is the capital of Laos.

Wg Cdr JT Kurien is the Commanding Officer of Suryakiran Team and the contingent would be headed by Gp Capt A Saxena. The 12 Kiran ac of the Surya Kiran Team would be supported by a contingent of 48 officers and 88 airmen. This includes two AN-32 and one IL-76 aircraft for transport support.

SKAT departed from Bidar on 24 Oct 08 and would enter China on 29 Oct 08 and reach Zhuhai on 31 Oct 08. Similarly, on return leg, SKAT would ferry out from Zhuhaie on 12 Nov 08 and exit China on 14 Nov 08. During the route, the team would be transiting through the Chinese Airfields of Gasa, Kunming, Guiyang and Guilin. On the return, the air show at Vieng Chan (Laos) is planned on 17 Nov 08.

IAF is the only air force which is carrying ot an air display in China. Thus, they are likely to be on the centre stage. Like the Exercise ‘Red Flag’ with USA which was a great success towards improvement in bilateral relations; it is envisaged that the SKAT would showcase the professionalism of IAF in China. Also, it would win goodwill of Chinese people and contribute to overall growth in the ties between the two countries.

***********

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 29 Oct 2008 22:06

skher wrote:This vertical pic gave me a very,very horizontal idea :idea: .

Can such an aircraft perform complete somersault...flipped full 180 on belly?
If so, is it possible to still have passengers on board who could parachute down just by using the earth's gravity (assuming upper fuselage has a big open door) :?: :!:


Wrong thread. My answer is in the newbie questions thread.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kakarat » 30 Oct 2008 01:00



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