Indian Military Aviation

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Vikram_S
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Vikram_S » 23 Dec 2008 22:04

Vivek K wrote:Where are the Phalcons? Still no sign?



2009

SaiK
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SaiK » 23 Dec 2008 22:06

ddm error>>>
HAL is currently evaluating the GE engine and the EJ- 200 engine for replacing the existing engine of the naval version of Dhruv.
if the intended news is for LCA, then naval version of LCA is the one that gets the new GE engines? IAF would like to have it too. may be a double error.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Amrinder » 24 Dec 2008 08:32

Maybe it has been discussed before: sometime back there was talk of US offering F-16 and F-18's. Have we expressed interest in A-10? It is a tank buster for sure and do you think that it will serve a good role in our scenario?
Thanks..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kannan » 24 Dec 2008 08:43

Amrinder wrote:Maybe it has been discussed before: sometime back there was talk of US offering F-16 and F-18's. Have we expressed interest in A-10? It is a tank buster for sure and do you think that it will serve a good role in our scenario?
Thanks..


The A-10 hasn't been in production in two decades, and the USAF does not have any plans to sell of what it has right now, nor would airframes with that much time be worth the purchase, training and upgrades.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SuKan » 24 Dec 2008 11:04

Dhruv: Whirring saviour in icy battlefield

Leh: Siachen, the world’s highest battlefield, on
the Indo-Tibet border, is the coldest part of the
country, where blizzards can last for weeks. At a
height of approximately 22,000 ft, the glaciers
here stretch over a length of 75 km with widths
ranging up to two km. With more than two tril-
lion cubic feet of ice, the temperature here drops
down to as low as -55 degree Celsius.
Here, the brave soldiers of the Indian Army
guarding the nation are facing a lethal enemy —
the weather. The hardships faced by these troops
can be gauged by the fact that more soldiers here
have lost their lives due to the inclement weather
conditions rather than to enemy attacks.
The cost of operations in Siachen is also unimag-
inably high, with one chapati delivered to a soldier
costing more than Rs 500! Air support is the lifeline
in this freezing white desert, as survival of the
troops is entirely dependent on this. And the heli-
copters serving this region are practically saviours
in the sky, helping in the movement of troops,
evacuating casualties, fetching rations and all other
supplies for the troops deployed at the base camp
and other forward posts. The heroes of this story
are the Cheetah and the Dhruv helicopters, which
are maintaining the supply chain to the entire area.
The 666 Army Aviation Squadron of the Indian
Army and 114 HU of the Indian Air Force at Leh
have been operating the Cheetah helicopters.
While the Army operates 18 Cheetahs, 13 are
operated by the Air Force.
Recently, Dhruv helicopters of the 203 Army
Aviation Squadron were also inducted at Leh to
enhance support to the Army. The first detach-
ment of two Dhruvs has started operations from
Leh from October 4, 2008 and more will be induct-
ed by April 2009 in phases. The Army eagerly
awaits Dhruvs here after their very successful and
effective role in Manasbal. The Cheetal helicopters,
a variant of Chetak manufactured in HAL,
Barrackpore Division, especially for high altitude
operations, will also be introduced in the area.
Chairman checks in: Chairman, HAL, Mr Ashok
K. Baweja visited Leh recently. Mr Baweja met the
Director, Army Aviation Project Team,
Commanding Officers of 203 and 666 Army
Squadrons, Chief Operations Officer and Chief
Engineering Officer of 121 Air Force Station and
discussed various issues related to flying opera-
tions. He also addressed the engineering officers of
the Army and Air Force. The Senior Technical
Officers of the 666 Sqn gave him a presentation on
issues pertaining to repair and maintenance.
Mr Baweja assured them that HAL would take
all possible action to maintain an acceptable ser-
viceability in all the units. He also outlined HAL’s
support plans for the units operating in the area.
He also said that HAL would be positioning
customer support teams with all the units. These
would be capable of carrying out repairs in-situ,
obviating the need to send equipment back to the
Divisions of the Company for repair.

http://www.hal-india.com/MinskSquareMatters-Issue67.pdf

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Amrinder » 25 Dec 2008 02:18

Kannan wrote:
Amrinder wrote:Maybe it has been discussed before: sometime back there was talk of US offering F-16 and F-18's. Have we expressed interest in A-10? It is a tank buster for sure and do you think that it will serve a good role in our scenario?
Thanks..


The A-10 hasn't been in production in two decades, and the USAF does not have any plans to sell of what it has right now, nor would airframes with that much time be worth the purchase, training and upgrades.


The current US plan is to extend A10 in service beyond 2028...a new order to upgrade or built 242 new wings was given to Boeing in 2007 (wikipedia)...i do not see why we could not approach them with a request for 50 A-10 or more.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Yogi_G » 25 Dec 2008 03:54

Amrinder wrote:
Kannan wrote:
Amrinder wrote:Maybe it has been discussed before: sometime back there was talk of US offering F-16 and F-18's. Have we expressed interest in A-10? It is a tank buster for sure and do you think that it will serve a good role in our scenario?
Thanks..


The A-10 hasn't been in production in two decades, and the USAF does not have any plans to sell of what it has right now, nor would airframes with that much time be worth the purchase, training and upgrades.


The current US plan is to extend A10 in service beyond 2028...a new order to upgrade or built 242 new wings was given to Boeing in 2007 (wikipedia)...i do not see why we could not approach them with a request for 50 A-10 or more.


I think SU-25 would be better suited for us, the extra armour will also help should we need to use them on the Naxalites any time in the future...On the other hand, we should seriously explore an option of developing a CAS aircraft ourselves, perhaps we can modify HJT SITARA into one...I believe Ajeet and Hawk already had a secondary role for close aerial support...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Ardeshir » 25 Dec 2008 04:33

Yogi_G wrote:I think SU-25 would be better suited for us, the extra armour will also help should we need to use them on the Naxalites any time in the future...On the other hand, we should seriously explore an option of developing a CAS aircraft ourselves, perhaps we can modify HJT SITARA into one...I believe Ajeet and Hawk already had a secondary role for close aerial support...

SU-25 to be used against Naxalites? :shock:
Let's leave bombing own territories to TSPA.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Yogi_G » 25 Dec 2008 07:57

Prasant wrote:
Yogi_G wrote:I think SU-25 would be better suited for us, the extra armour will also help should we need to use them on the Naxalites any time in the future...On the other hand, we should seriously explore an option of developing a CAS aircraft ourselves, perhaps we can modify HJT SITARA into one...I believe Ajeet and Hawk already had a secondary role for close aerial support...

SU-25 to be used against Naxalites? :shock:
Let's leave bombing own territories to TSPA.


The statement of SU-25 being used on naxalites may seem odd now but India has to deal with them some day...given their very size and spread "Veerappan catching style Police" may just not be enough....

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 25 Dec 2008 13:15

yogi_g, this is madness. see a doc. :D

at most, armed choppers can be used against naxals.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby asbchakri » 25 Dec 2008 15:01

Rahul M wrote:yogi_g, this is madness. see a doc. :D

at most, armed choppers can be used against naxals.


Not to mention scaring the living daylights out of the tribals and the villagers :mrgreen: :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 25 Dec 2008 15:14

A-10 can cover ground more quickly vs helis, dont have the serviceability issues of helis.
and bring a lot of power to bear if a camp etc need to be taken out. so Su39/A10 is
a strong tool for the job but WSI dhruv with FLIR to spot campfires in dense forests
is also a option.

each state govt in india buys a few civilian helis from all over the place. from now on
they should only buy dhruv and that too the WSI model.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Dmurphy » 25 Dec 2008 15:47

Rahul M wrote:yogi_g, this is madness. see a doc.
Oh come on now! How do you plan to bring down their huge fortresses with pea shooters like Dhruv WSI? How are you gonna counter their SAM batteries? And their T-90 armored regiments? That guy has a point! :x :D

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Yogi_G » 25 Dec 2008 19:53

Dmurphy wrote:
Rahul M wrote:yogi_g, this is madness. see a doc.
Oh come on now! How do you plan to bring down their huge fortresses with pea shooters like Dhruv WSI? How are you gonna counter their SAM batteries? And their T-90 armored regiments? That guy has a point! :x :D


I know the statement sounded real weird, but I am of the firm opinion that given the strength that the naxals seem to be acquiring, MANPADS might already be in their hands. Use of helos might lead to losses, hence my mention of armoured CAS fighters which can still take some small arms fire, pounce in and do the job....

Forget Porkis, Naxals are the real challenge we have. They are only gaining in strength, believe me in the not so distant future, dont be alarmed if you see CAS aircraft being employed against them...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 25 Dec 2008 20:02

second that. cheap RPG-x (x > 20) and manpads are proliferating and chipanda can sell you on a spot basis any amt.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby p_saggu » 25 Dec 2008 20:21

Can FLIR on say an armed dhruv detect heat signatures of people underneath a Jungle say in an anti naxal operation. Can't we equip a few dhruvs with such tech?

Might come in very useful in Anti-naxal ops, in the North east and in J&K.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 25 Dec 2008 21:40

Singha wrote:A-10 can cover ground more quickly vs helis, dont have the serviceability issues of helis.
and bring a lot of power to bear if a camp etc need to be taken out. so Su39/A10 is
a strong tool for the job but WSI dhruv with FLIR to spot campfires in dense forests
is also a option.

each state govt in india buys a few civilian helis from all over the place. from now on
they should only buy dhruv and that too the WSI model.

naxals don't set up camps in the classical sense. it's mostly a jungle clearing with a few straw/leaf houses.

A-10 is grossly overkill and inefficient for that role. things like OV-10 might have been most ideal.

btw, one of your ideas using the an-32 with lots of firepower and on-board sensors might be a good idea ! :twisted:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Yogi_G » 25 Dec 2008 22:07

Rahul M wrote:
Singha wrote:A-10 can cover ground more quickly vs helis, dont have the serviceability issues of helis.
and bring a lot of power to bear if a camp etc need to be taken out. so Su39/A10 is
a strong tool for the job but WSI dhruv with FLIR to spot campfires in dense forests
is also a option.

each state govt in india buys a few civilian helis from all over the place. from now on
they should only buy dhruv and that too the WSI model.

naxals don't set up camps in the classical sense. it's mostly a jungle clearing with a few straw/leaf houses.

A-10 is grossly overkill and inefficient for that role. things like OV-10 might have been most ideal.

btw, one of your ideas using the an-32 with lots of firepower and on-board sensors might be a good idea ! :twisted:


While OV-10's ability to be able to use crude airfields and STOL is well-suited for the role, it still does not offer the armour. Ideally the characteristics of an aircraft best suited in our case would be as below,

1. Good Low level flying characteristics
2. Good Cannon -- Abiltity to neutralize a given area with a volley of cannon-fire, this ensures a bit more expensive munitions like rockets/dumb/smart bombs are not used
3. Rockets if needed
4. Excellent armour, must be able to take small arms fire and still carry on
5. Ability to work from crude airfields

in a typical scenario, roaming anti-naxal forces would tip-off the aircraft and the aircraft would need to rush to the are, engage its cannon, neutralize the area and depart, reasonable maneuvarability is also required....I think SU-25 offers all of these, helos and su-25 complementing each other would be the tools of choice......

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 25 Dec 2008 22:17

please, you don't know what you are talking about.

jets are simply too fast for this kind of thing to be effective/accurate. and don't go into PGMs etc, using PGMs against naxals would be the moronic idea of the century.

the armour you speak of is unnecessary, individual small arms like INSAS are no threat to even attack choppers like LCH. naxals don't have AAA or MANPADS.

anti-naxal forces need a/c that can stay in the air for a long time, are simple and rugged enough to be used from dirt strips and are cheap to own and operate.

and no, they don't need rockets.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Yogi_G » 25 Dec 2008 22:52

Rahul M wrote:please, you don't know what you are talking about.

jets are simply too fast for this kind of thing to be effective/accurate. and don't go into PGMs etc, using PGMs against naxals would be the moronic idea of the century.

the armour you speak of is unnecessary, individual small arms like INSAS are no threat to even attack choppers like LCH. naxals don't have AAA or MANPADS.

anti-naxal forces need a/c that can stay in the air for a long time, are simple and rugged enough to be used from dirt strips and are cheap to own and operate.

and no, they don't need rockets.


------------------------------------

Jets are the only choice on a modern CAS aircraft, put turbo-props on them and the blades get blown off by small arms fire....CAS aircraft are designed to have good low level flying characteristics, case in point is Georgian and Russian tanks surgically destroyed in the recent conflict by frogfoots....and yes I was only prescribing extensive use of cannon and no PGMs....gosh!! :)

All along I have been talking of how the aircraft might be used against naxals in the future and not the immediate present, please. And what stops them from procuring MANPADS in the future? Chinks would be all too eager to offer them on platter to anti-India axals. Agreed AAA batteries would be sitting ducks given their size...

We just need to see how frogfoots were used against the Mujahiddeen by the Soviets to understand the kind of challenge rag-tag fighters can pose...Good armour and redundant systems configuration on the CAS fighter would be of most need...

And as I said CAS fighter will be used in tandem with LCH into the future....never said that frogfoot will be the jack of all trades....anti-naxal forces need aircraft which can complement the helo force which can reach the point of interest quickly, dive and do their stuff and leave...essentially de-fanging the naxals...leave the rest to the helos...good body armour and pilot shielding, apart from providing confidence to the pilot also ensures that small arms fire doesnt jeopardise the whole mission...why do you think the Soviets put armour on the frogfoots??

Rockets...well you never know, they are good for hit and go runs but in most cases they would not be needed...
Last edited by Yogi_G on 26 Dec 2008 00:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 25 Dec 2008 23:05

yogi, I do know what I'm talking about.
the soviet campaign in afghanistan is something I gave extra effort in knowing. some of it is here. http://brmsrr.blogspot.com/2008/07/rahu ... ssons.html

I'm aware of the naxalite movement and its military capabilities. getting arms in India still isn't as easy as you think. leave alone AAA/MANPADS the only automatic weapons naxals have are SLRs/INSAS robbed from security forces.before that crude muskets were their only weapon.
even the AK-47, available to all and sundry are not seen in their hands.
India would have to do very very poorly indeed if MANPADS become available to the naxals.

also, there can be NO comparison between naxals and mujahideens. by making that comparison, you betray a gross lack of knowledge about either.

a note of advice, I'm sure you know that BRFites are supposed to be more knowledgeable than most forums demand of their members. as you well know, spoon feeding is not encouraged here and you would do well to do some reading on your own before you come up with off the beaten track suggestions.

please remember, few revolutionary ideas are actually good practical ones. :wink:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Yogi_G » 25 Dec 2008 23:26

--------------------
Last edited by Yogi_G on 26 Dec 2008 00:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 25 Dec 2008 23:39

I also believe that other's comments/analysis should not be belittled...

well, enough people have tried to tell you why your comments/analysis was not practical.

At the end of it your ideas have to stand on their own strength, you can't just put in 'any' idea and claim it should be respected by others.

if your comments are there to be dissected, it would be. that is what a forum is meant for. ideas would be celebrated or trashed according to its merits. every BRFite has in his/her time been subjected to this. nothing personal here.

if you would rather be protective about your ideas and get hurt when others prove it to be wrong, better keep it to yourself.
FYI...and since you are a moderator and feel my comments are "off the beaten track" here, I will make sure I don't post anything further on this thread....

Excuse me while I go back to my "wanting to be spoon-fed" ways....

yogi_g, till now I believe I've shown considerable patience with your ideas.
I haven't used my mod privileges anywhere in this discussion and have tried to make you understand exactly why your idea is grossly impractical, some may even call it naive.

but I must say this pseudo emotional blackmail thing is plain silly.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby putnanja » 28 Dec 2008 01:45


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Vikram_S » 28 Dec 2008 01:52

ravi sharma wrote:The only blip is that AL-55I, at around 950 kg, is heavier by 200 kg than promised. The Russians have formulated a plan that could at best cut 100 kg.


it is very amusing way DDM Ravi Sharma massages facts. if it was indian kaveri engine it would be "Kaveri total flop IAF rejects as overweight by 200 kg"..if it is russian engine it is "only blip"

LOL

all these DDM types are so open with prejudice it is amusing to see

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby nikhil_p » 28 Dec 2008 02:55

Yogi_G


hmm...Afghanistan, Georgia, etc compared to Naxal movement. like Rahul mentioned there is no comparison between the naxals and the Mujahideen in Afghanistan.
Three things to look at..in order of importance
Geography
Afghanistan in most parts is semi arid region, with open areas and visibility in the range of 4-4.5 kms. Also there is almost little or no top cover while hiding. Cut to India, most Naxals are in Forest areas. Something similar to the Vietcong in nam was. The biggest problem is they are in the cover of DENSE forest. This makes it difficult for pinpointing their location. Also IIRC the US used NAPALM and Agent O to clear entire regions of forests. (A luxury our military, anti-naxal forces cannot afford).
In Afghanistan they would sight the mujahids fron almost a mile away and call in CAS support, which has a wonderful window of opp to clear this. Whereas in anti Naxal ops in India they will be very close to where the naxals are to call in effective fixed wing CAS.

BTW i believe we are going OT...Adminullahs to please use their weapon systems to clean up! :)


BTW i think we are going OT here. Adminullahs to please clear the air using your CAS (CUT AND SHOOT) ;)
Utility of the Machine
The biggest disadvantage of a fixed wing a/c is that it has a very small window of opportunity to target a given area, especially when using guns (fixed wingers generally use a nose mounted fixed orientation weapon). It is useful in places like Georgia (frogfoots used to destroy tanks like you mentioned) because these tanks are generally in the OPEN and on tracks. Tanks drive in convoys which makes it an easy target for fixed wing A/c as the AC has a longer window of opportunity in a single strike.
The helo on he other hand as you know can hover, most helos have a chin mounted, turreted gun which has almost 180-270 degree coverage. This makes it more effective when you have to get concentrated firepower on location. Also consider the fact that helos can refuel and rearm at any small clearing which has these facilities, which can be located maybe 50-100 km from Naxal infested areas. They will reach the zone of action pretty fast whereas the frogfoot, warthog, will need an airstrip (even a STOL a/c needs some kind of an airstrip) which is atleast 200-500 yards long, has atleast some landing facilities etc. Also jet engines are more prone to FOD than rotary or prop a/c.

Operational Plans.
Most anti-naxal forces depend to a large Extent on HUMINT and then zero in on the location. A CAS aircraft doing the rounds will certainly alert the naxals to take evasive action. Moreover HUMINT has its limitations where it might suffer from time delays etc. In afghanistan the mujahids were in large groups often 100+ strong, used vehicles like tanks, BMP's, jeeps etc and fought inthe plains or hills which made it easier to sight and almost gave live feed to the CAS a/c. The Naxals, as already mentioned by pandyan the naxals are a fragmented force which believes more in using guerrilla tactics to fight than fighting in large groups.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby MukulMohanty » 30 Dec 2008 18:05

Sorry about this, but someone has posted an excellent home video of two MiG-21's taking off an IAF base with the first one developing engine failure almost immediately and the two pilots ejecting while the plane pretty much crashes next to the cameraman...

Its available on liveleak.com I am at work and can't access this site from here, so you need to check it out on page 2/3...

Cheers,

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Indrajit » 30 Dec 2008 18:28

Well MukulMohanty or whosoever u're,that video shows a PAF F-7 Crashing,some juvenile Porki has uploaded this out of frustration.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby MukulMohanty » 30 Dec 2008 18:31

I am pretty sure that's an IAF one. Look at the subsequent footage and the uniform of the personnel. Plus, I am not trying to be rude about anyone, so let's save the jingoism for later.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby somnath » 30 Dec 2008 18:41

To suggest even armed chopper borne ops against NAxals is a stupidity of the highest order. Barring one case (Mizoram), India has never used offensive air ops in CI. To use such power against our own people is plain silly. Again, these insurgencies are best won through intel and good policing, not rambo style operations.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Jagan » 30 Dec 2008 18:42

no flame throwing please.

Mukul, the video is not IAF - note the Red Crescent markings on the ambulance and did you ever see those vehicles in India? There is a great thread on pprune.org that discusses the video.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/ ... ction.html (may need a login)

-Jagan

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby milindc » 30 Dec 2008 20:58

SaiK's x-post t=4600&p=593248#p593248
India will not join any military alliance: Antony
India has acquired a powerful Green Pine early warning radar system from Israel and signed a multi-million deal for purchasing an unspecified number of Aerostat long-range radars to bolster air defenses along its borders.

New Delhi has received "large numbers" of the Aerostat radars - comprising sophisticated sensors mounted on blimp-like balloons tethered to the ground by cables - officials say.

Military experts describe the Aerostat as a cheap alternative to airborne warning and control systems (AWACS) like the Phalcon, three of which are being mounted in Israel on IL-78 platforms.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 31 Dec 2008 18:48

p_saggu wrote:Can FLIR on say an armed dhruv detect heat signatures of people underneath a Jungle say in an anti naxal operation. Can't we equip a few dhruvs with such tech?

Might come in very useful in Anti-naxal ops, in the North east and in J&K.


Dhruv's younger brother who will be coming along soon will bring the FLIR equipment as standard.

Not only will that FLIR look down, but also up, if you follow what I mean... :wink:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 31 Dec 2008 18:52

vivek, did you find time to do that little thing you promised to look into ? :wink:

in any case you have mail. another one follows.
regards.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Aditya G » 04 Jan 2009 11:35

What exactly is IAF's involvement in CI today:

1. Movement of troops and material by air
2. Use of UAVs to track terrorist movements across LoC for example
3. Use of armed Mi-17 and Chetak helicopters to attack specific targets like in Op Sarp Vinash
4. SHBO

somnath wrote:To suggest even armed chopper borne ops against NAxals is a stupidity of the highest order. Barring one case (Mizoram), India has never used offensive air ops in CI. To use such power against our own people is plain silly. Again, these insurgencies are best won through intel and good policing, not rambo style operations.

narayana
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby narayana » 05 Jan 2009 16:42

Rahul M wrote:please, you don't know what you are talking about.

jets are simply too fast for this kind of thing to be effective/accurate. and don't go into PGMs etc, using PGMs against naxals would be the moronic idea of the century.

the armour you speak of is unnecessary, individual small arms like INSAS are no threat to even attack choppers like LCH. naxals don't have AAA or MANPADS.


Rahul,a couple of years back a Huge Cache of rockets and home made Launchers were caught by Police of Andhra Pradesh and a Naxal who was a Engineer By Profession and was running a SOHO style Workshop to build these in TN was caught alive,though they were crude,they did use them on a couple of attacks on police stations in orissa,so we cant be complacent.with maoists now being too close to chincoms and there is high probability of profileration of these from porus Nepalese Brorders.so better lets not write off their capabilities now.

Though it may be far fetched to use A-10's against naxals i would love to see them in action for Close Air support for our Army doing a Surgical strike inside POK :).

vivek_ahuja
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 05 Jan 2009 17:14

Shiny tools and gizmos are always impressive to look at and drool over. What's more impressive is when they are used effectively in combat. But the latter requires more thought than displayed above. No offense intended.

Now, take the case of using helicopters against these Naxals etc. How will they be operationally employed? Against an enemy who can disappear into the woods, do you send helicopters on constant patrols? Or do you establish intelligence through electronic and imaging intelligence (even HUMINT) that is accurate enough to be acted upon in hours? If you possess this intelligence gathering capability, why do you need the helicopters? And if you don't, then the helicopters are of no use anyway. You see the dilemma?

The case gets worse for jets. And if you wish to deploy million dollar imaging systems and weaponry against small camps of people, then the approach to the problem is all wrong because that same money can be used more effectively by the police and paramilitary forces for more useful long term improvement in efficiency and fighting potential.

Frankly speaking, I wonder why we are even discussing this issue for so long on this thread?

JMT

-Vivek

somnath
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby somnath » 05 Jan 2009 17:45

Just to add, there is a politico societal diemnsion to all operations. Air power is the zenith of escalation, just below using nukes. To use it against ones own people is the territory of the likes of Saddam Hussain - civilised nations dont do that.

And people are constantly confusing between police operations and military ones.

Singha
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 05 Jan 2009 17:58

yah yah you softies and lawyers you! 8)

how about atleast a Heron or two to loiter over suspected naxal infested forests for hours and quickly id camps of people in the night. they could well be innocent hunters or villagers but
knowing where to check in a 100km x 100km box with limited boots on ground is quite important.

ticky
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ticky » 05 Jan 2009 18:20

Singha wrote:yah yah you softies and lawyers you! 8)

how about atleast a Heron or two to loiter over suspected naxal infested forests for hours and quickly id camps of people in the night. they could well be innocent hunters or villagers but
knowing where to check in a 100km x 100km box with limited boots on ground is quite important.


The Army has a UAV unit in Manipur doing exactly that.


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