Indian Military Aviation

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Div
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Div » 15 Jan 2009 08:33

andy B wrote:
Div wrote:If the Russians can put 2 Moskits(?) on the inner wing pylons, then 2 Brahmos shouldn't really be a big deal.


Those are AS-17/KH-31 Kryptons my friend, AFAIK the Moskit can only be employed on the centre pylon given its weight and dimensions compared to the Kryptons.

Doh...scrap that. :|

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby AdityaM » 15 Jan 2009 12:03

Need a clarification:

Why is it that the radar is housed in a radome, while for other phalcons, the radar seems to be in the huge bulb like formation in the nose of the plane.
Are there any specific advantages of top mounted radome structure?

Phalcon pics for other planes:
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/ ... alcon.html

I know we have used a different platform & hence IL76 maynot allow for a nose based system, but just want to understand the difference.

Any pointers will be appreciated

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby bart » 15 Jan 2009 13:19

AdityaM wrote:Need a clarification:

Why is it that the radar is housed in a radome, while for other phalcons, the radar seems to be in the huge bulb like formation in the nose of the plane.
Are there any specific advantages of top mounted radome structure?


Its because of the choice of IL-76 platform by the IAF. The A50 mainstay version of the IL-76 has already been designed, integrated and structurally tested and proven, so it would be cost effective to go with what is already available unless there is some compelling need to change. IIRC both the radome and the bulb provide equivalent level of radar coverage.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Yusuf » 15 Jan 2009 15:36

Instead of using a rotodome, a moving radar found on AWACS aircraft, the Phalcon uses the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), an active phased array radar. This radar consists of an array transmit/receive (T/R) modules that allow a beam to be electronically steered, making a physically rotating rotodome unnecessary. AESA radars have very short to instantaneous scanning rates, which makes them difficult to detect.
Phalcon radars can be mounted on the an aircraft's fuselage or on the top inside a small dome. Either position gives the radar 360 degree coverage. This allows it to track high maneuvering targets and low flying objects from hundreds of kilometers away, under all weather conditions, in both day and night.

As far as Indian Phalcons are concerned, its because we use the Il 76 platform that they are rotodome.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby s sharma » 15 Jan 2009 16:35

Yusuf wrote:
As far as Indian Phalcons are concerned, its because we use the Il 76 platform that they are rotodome.


Hello Yusuf,

You are correct, the beam is electronically steered and hence it is not (does not need to) a rotodome as the chapati does not rotate.

Thanks!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby chetak » 15 Jan 2009 23:29

s sharma wrote:
Yusuf wrote:
As far as Indian Phalcons are concerned, its because we use the Il 76 platform that they are rotodome.


Hello Yusuf,

You are correct, the beam is electronically steered and hence it is not (does not need to) a rotodome as the chapati does not rotate.

Thanks!



You can also use two separated antennae for 360 degrees coverage.

Example
The Australian Navy P3 Orion has two antennae mounted, one each in the nose and tail for its Elta-2022 Maritime radar.
Each antenna scans 180 degrees only but the display integrates the two antenna outputs to produce a smooth 360 degree sweep.

This is different from the typical Elta-2022 radar installation which uses a single antenna mounted in a underbelly radome . This type of mounting has a considerable blind zone to the rear.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby m mittal » 16 Jan 2009 02:49

An excerpt from wikipedia from Phalcon page:

Instead of using a rotodome, a moving radar found on AWACS aircraft, the Phalcon uses the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), an active phased array radar. This radar consists of an array transmit/receive (T/R) modules that allow a beam to be electronically steered, making a physically rotating rotodome unnecessary. AESA radars have very short to instantaneous scanning rates, which makes them difficult to detect.

Phalcon radars can be mounted on the an aircraft's fuselage or on the top inside a small dome. Either position gives the radar 360 degree coverage. This allows it to track high maneuvering targets and low flying objects from hundreds of kilometers away, under all weather conditions, in both day and night.


Just a FYI that CABS is designing AESA radar for India's own Airborne Surveillance Platform (ASP) [Airavat] program.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby nash » 16 Jan 2009 10:12

Yesterday evening i saw plane look like ilyushin flying at bangalore.

was it Phalcon or a passenger?, if anybody else saw that also

Also,it is flying at very low altitude

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby gauravjkale » 16 Jan 2009 11:22

If it had a rotodome over it fuselage then its a phalcon else it was an IL -76 / IL-78

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby nash » 16 Jan 2009 12:16

gauravjkale wrote:If it had a rotodome over it fuselage then its a phalcon else it was an IL -76 / IL-78


I unable to see that because it is quiet dark and my location of standing is not good.
Last edited by nash on 16 Jan 2009 14:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby s sharma » 16 Jan 2009 14:08

gauravjkale wrote:If it had a rotodome over it fuselage then its a phalcon else it was an IL -76 / IL-78


Can we please stop referring the Phalcon Radar Disc or Radome as Rotodome. Rotodome signifies rotation of the dome (or radome).

Thanks.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby m mittal » 16 Jan 2009 22:17

We can call it a "Chatri" or an Umbrella..... :lol:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 16 Jan 2009 22:29

m mittal wrote:We can call it a "Chatri" or an Umbrella..... :lol:

you can simply call it a dome :)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Mort Walker » 16 Jan 2009 23:09

I counted 4 VHF antennas on the top forward of the Phalcon and another 11 on the bottom forward. A total of 15 VHF antennas indicates that there are at least 15 discrete parallel voice/data comm links coming in for air-air or air-ground comms. I couldn't make out if there were any VHF antennas in the aft of the aircraft.

It also appears to have an ECM/ECCM emitter/receiver on the bottom forward.

CORRECTED LATER
I missed another 6 VHF antennas on the bottom of the fuselage. My bet is that 1 Phalcon can communicate and control one squadron of IAF combat fighter aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Yogi_G » 17 Jan 2009 09:19

Mort Walker wrote:I counted 4 VHF antennas on the top forward of the Phalcon and another 11 on the bottom forward. A total of 15 VHF antennas indicates that there are at least 15 discrete parallel voice/data comm links coming in for air-air or air-ground comms. I couldn't make out if there were any VHF antennas in the aft of the aircraft.

It also appears to have an ECM/ECCM emitter/receiver on the bottom forward.

CORRECTED LATER
I missed another 6 VHF antennas on the bottom of the fuselage. My bet is that 1 Phalcon can communicate and control one squadron of IAF combat fighter aircraft.


My knowledge in this area is very limited but your statement on a Phalcon only being able to comm and control one squadron of IAF combat fighter aircraft seems a bit off to me....In a given theater of operation wouldn't an AWACS be expected to co-ordinate many squadrons at the same time over a given large area? Of course in IAF's context large strike groups would have air cover by MKI and possible in future MMRCA whose data links can pretty much be used to form mini AWACS co-ordinating within strike groups, so I would expect AWACS to just be able to co-ordinate more than one squadron..please clarify...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SuKan » 17 Jan 2009 10:12

The phalcons hasn't arrived yet,they will arrive in February.
http://www.zeenews.com/nation/2009-01-1 ... 1news.html

Shiv aroor of livefist blog also says the same.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/01/ha ... rived.html
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/01/ia ... -next.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby kidoman » 17 Jan 2009 11:37

SuKan wrote:The phalcons hasn't arrived yet,they will arrive in February.
http://www.zeenews.com/nation/2009-01-1 ... 1news.html

Shiv aroor of livefist blog also says the same.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/01/ha ... rived.html
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/01/ia ... -next.html


From shiv's second post
"Oh, and from the horse's mouth (though this happened a couple of days ago!), the Phalcon hasn't arrived yet. And neither has the Gripen been eliminated in the MMRCA tech-eval "downselect"."

Wat the hell???
After so much news and discussion all around, here comes the news that the beauty has still not arrived!!
Grrrrr :evil: :evil: :evil:


Ps:By the way check the comments on the 2nd blog.Esp of Anon at 9.30Am

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby m mittal » 17 Jan 2009 12:02

Ps:By the way check the comments on the 2nd blog.Esp of Anon at 9.30Am


Nice find Kidoman!!!

Hope to hear some good news soon!!!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Mort Walker » 17 Jan 2009 12:16

Yogi_G wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:I counted 4 VHF antennas on the top forward of the Phalcon and another 11 on the bottom forward. A total of 15 VHF antennas indicates that there are at least 15 discrete parallel voice/data comm links coming in for air-air or air-ground comms. I couldn't make out if there were any VHF antennas in the aft of the aircraft.

It also appears to have an ECM/ECCM emitter/receiver on the bottom forward.

CORRECTED LATER
I missed another 6 VHF antennas on the bottom of the fuselage. My bet is that 1 Phalcon can communicate and control one squadron of IAF combat fighter aircraft.


My knowledge in this area is very limited but your statement on a Phalcon only being able to comm and control one squadron of IAF combat fighter aircraft seems a bit off to me....In a given theater of operation wouldn't an AWACS be expected to co-ordinate many squadrons at the same time over a given large area? Of course in IAF's context large strike groups would have air cover by MKI and possible in future MMRCA whose data links can pretty much be used to form mini AWACS co-ordinating within strike groups, so I would expect AWACS to just be able to co-ordinate more than one squadron..please clarify...


Voice & data comms to approximately 20 a/c simultaneously, they do not have be all in the same squadron. Yes, you could communicate with more a/c and other ground stations, but the point is that the Phalcon can have at least 20 VHF frequency channels open in parallel (or so it would appear at first glance).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Dmurphy » 17 Jan 2009 12:31

kidoman wrote:
SuKan wrote:The phalcons hasn't arrived yet,they will arrive in February.
http://www.zeenews.com/nation/2009-01-1 ... 1news.html

Shiv aroor of livefist blog also says the same.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/01/ha ... rived.html
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/01/ia ... -next.html


From shiv's second post
"Oh, and from the horse's mouth (though this happened a couple of days ago!), the Phalcon hasn't arrived yet. And neither has the Gripen been eliminated in the MMRCA tech-eval "downselect"."

Wat the hell???
After so much news and discussion all around, here comes the news that the beauty has still not arrived!!
Grrrrr :evil: :evil: :evil:


Ps:By the way check the comments on the 2nd blog.Esp of Anon at 9.30Am
And what the...? I recall someone amongst us, actually sighted an AWACS in Bangalore. vishals, was it?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Yusuf » 17 Jan 2009 14:38

Wonder why India did not go for the complete system with the Boeing 707/Gulfstream 550 76 nose mounted system with the AESA radar, rather than go with the Il 76 rotodome system. Anyone having the cost difference of the two planes? That could be the only reason.

Also the Il 76 looks to be a larger plane than the others. That will mean more fuel costs and other costs will be more than the Boeing/Gulfstream.

Besides the nose mounted system would be more survivable in a war scenario as the Rotodome presents a bigger target than the nose system.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 17 Jan 2009 14:58

Yusuf wrote:Wonder why India did not go for the complete system with the Boeing 707 nose mounted system with the AESA radar, rather than go with the Il 76 rotodome system. Anyone having the cost difference of the two planes? That could be the only reason.


You are of course aware that the IL-76 model forms the basis of the Indian strategic transport fleet, the in-flight refueling force and even some ARC aircraft. The supporting infrastructure is tailored around this model. This includes spare parts, runway strength, runway lengths, trained maintenance crews, ground equipment etc.

The IAF also has a good understanding of what the aircraft is able to do and what it cannot do in terms of operating from high altitude airbases to coastal airbases etc, range, endurance and payload capacity etc. This is not as trivial as it may sound.

In view of this, the IL-76 model serves more in terms of logistical nuances and allows quicker integration into the Air Force structure. Sometimes these issues far surpass the cost issue.

Besides the nose mounted system would be more survivable in a war scenario as the Rotodome presents a bigger target than the nose system.


Not sure how you mean the above.

Nevertheless, as far as IR signature, Radar signature and visual signature (measured as size of aircraft) is concerned, the radar mounting hardly affects the overall scheme of things. Not to mention that the in terms of radar coverage without involving aircraft maneuvering is far better in case of the triangular arranged arrays on the radar disc on top of the Indian Phalcon.

Let's not insult the IAF as far as professionalism is concerned, shall we? They are bound to have looked at the issue more than us arm chair generals, right?

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Yusuf » 17 Jan 2009 15:31

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Yusuf wrote:Wonder why India did not go for the complete system with the Boeing 707 nose mounted system with the AESA radar, rather than go with the Il 76 rotodome system. Anyone having the cost difference of the two planes? That could be the only reason.


You are of course aware that the IL-76 model forms the basis of the Indian strategic transport fleet, the in-flight refueling force and even some ARC aircraft. The supporting infrastructure is tailored around this model. This includes spare parts, runway strength, runway lengths, trained maintenance crews, ground equipment etc.

The IAF also has a good understanding of what the aircraft is able to do and what it cannot do in terms of operating from high altitude airbases to coastal airbases etc, range, endurance and payload capacity etc. This is not as trivial as it may sound.

In view of this, the IL-76 model serves more in terms of logistical nuances and allows quicker integration into the Air Force structure. Sometimes these issues far surpass the cost issue.

Besides the nose mounted system would be more survivable in a war scenario as the Rotodome presents a bigger target than the nose system.


Not sure how you mean the above.

Nevertheless, as far as IR signature, Radar signature and visual signature (measured as size of aircraft) is concerned, the radar mounting hardly affects the overall scheme of things. Not to mention that the in terms of radar coverage without involving aircraft maneuvering is far better in case of the triangular arranged arrays on the radar disc on top of the Indian Phalcon.

Let's not insult the IAF as far as professionalism is concerned, shall we? They are bound to have looked at the issue more than us arm chair generals, right?

-Vivek


No we are just trying to discuss the reasons for Rotodome/Nose mounted systems and its merits/demerits.
What is the rest of the advanced countries like doing? What is the kind of a replacement for the US Hawkeye?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vishals » 17 Jan 2009 17:00

Dmurphy wrote:Ps:By the way check the comments on the 2nd blog.Esp of Anon at 9.30Am
And what the...? I recall someone amongst us, actually sighted an AWACS in Bangalore. vishals, was it?



Yep, i remember watching it that morning near to marathalli, i mentioned time as well so that if someone else has seen, it can be double confirmed. I thought may be HAL/DRDO working on our AWACS wanna have a look.

I think with the current geopolitical situation with TSP it makes sense for govt. to not announce it officially. If a conflict breaks out, it will act as a major force multiplier for IAF.

domain-b and some other sources also publiced this news. And the second one quotes IAF sources:-
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mi ... awacs.html
http://defense-technologynews.blogspot. ... ipped.html

And if it really hasn't arrived yet than i can't say anything else but will go for an eye checkup.. :D

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SSridhar » 17 Jan 2009 18:03

IAF to launch its own satellite next year

The Indian Air Force is embarking on a modernisation programme to enhance its capability, including putting in place an integrated air command and control system this year and launching its own satellite next year, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal F H Major said here on Saturday.

In the next few years, IAF would acquire very complex grade radar facilities. The air command system would be in place by 2009. "With these capablities, IAF can apply a robust network of sensors and enable it to conduct operations with high flexibility, which is our aim", he said.

The IAF has already redesigned its training patterns and most of its inventory would either be upgraded or changed in the next few years, he said, while delivering the Air Chief Marshall L M Katre Memorial Lecture here today.

Stating that aerospace power would increase in future, he said IAF has put measures in place as far as aerial space was concerned. "We are ready to meet any situation", he said to a query on steps the IAF had taken in the wake of heightened tension between India and Pakistan.

On modernisation plans, he said induction of Jaguars, MIG-27s, MIG-29s and Sukhois with upgraded avionics have been accelerated.

Inter-govermental agreements for design and development of fifth generation fighter aircraft has been concluded, he said adding the LCA programme has gained momentum. The initial operations were expected to start by 2010-11,he said.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 17 Jan 2009 18:20

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Yusuf wrote:Wonder why India did not go for the complete system with the Boeing 707 nose mounted system with the AESA radar, rather than go with the Il 76 rotodome system. Anyone having the cost difference of the two planes? That could be the only reason.


You are of course aware that the IL-76 model forms the basis of the Indian strategic transport fleet, the in-flight refueling force and even some ARC aircraft. The supporting infrastructure is tailored around this model. This includes spare parts, runway strength, runway lengths, trained maintenance crews, ground equipment etc.

The IAF also has a good understanding of what the aircraft is able to do and what it cannot do in terms of operating from high altitude airbases to coastal airbases etc, range, endurance and payload capacity etc. This is not as trivial as it may sound.

In view of this, the IL-76 model serves more in terms of logistical nuances and allows quicker integration into the Air Force structure. Sometimes these issues far surpass the cost issue.
-Vivek

I was thinking spare parts issue, we have seen problems with spare supply/maintainence of Tu-142, Mi-26, Mig-25 etc. what if IL-76 goes down in the same path sometime in future? that would also affect operational readiness and no. of aircraft availaible at anytime. since these are special mission aircraft, it might also require regular maintainence of electronics.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 17 Jan 2009 18:24

The Indian Air Force is embarking on a modernisation programme to enhance its capability, including putting in place an integrated air command and control system this year and launching its own satellite next year, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal F H Major said here on Saturday.

Any news on the Naval satellite?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby p_saggu » 17 Jan 2009 18:30

The con of having a nose and side mounted system of antennas as on the 707 phalcons and Chile's Condor is I think
1. The aircraft becomes front heavy, All three huge antennas are placed in front of the wings, so some internal redesigning of equipment would probably be needed.
2. There is a likely blind spot around the 6 'O Clock area of the area

On a radome IL-76 system, the antennas are placed more or less in the middle and the equilateral triangle placement of the antennas makes for no blind spots.

One interesting observation I would like to make here is with the stroies of the IAF being much impressed with the A-330 based refueller, is it a possibility then that the second line of Phalcons could also go that way? As I understand the A-330 based system would outclass an IL-76 based system both in terms of endurance and fuel efficiency. It is way too early to speculate.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 17 Jan 2009 18:44

p_saggu wrote:
One interesting observation I would like to make here is with the stroies of the IAF being much impressed with the A-330 based refueller, is it a possibility then that the second line of Phalcons could also go that way? As I understand the A-330 based system would outclass an IL-76 based system both in terms of endurance and fuel efficiency. It is way too early to speculate.


I am hoping that decisions will be made taking into consideration whether or not France cntinues to supply offensive hardware and spares to Pakistan.

It's got to be either us or Pakis.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby p_saggu » 17 Jan 2009 18:57

IAF to launch its own satellite next year

Is this a dedicated Communication satellite? But why is it IAF specific then and why not armed forces specific, catering to the needs of all three services? Is it related to the epidemic of satcom antenna domes we have seen in everything that the IAF is planning to acquire these days?

Does it do any thing more? If it is in geosynchronous orbit, it would be pretty useless as a SAR or with cameras for earth viewing at resolutions that would be required by the military. If it is used as a source of radar signals, again it is too far away and the signal would be too weak.

Presently it seems that the IAF is the main custodian of the Nuclear weapons, the army has a few missile based ones. Does this have seperate transponders for Control or PAL type systems?

Does it have a role in Indian region specific GPS type system? Again a single satellite would not be of much help.

OK so if it is in a polar or a low earth orbit, we are then talking of a number of such satellites. They could do all of the above, even the communication part if another satellite appears over the horizon - but you are talking of a dozen such in orbit for this.

Too many questions too few answers.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Yogi_G » 17 Jan 2009 20:13

Mort Walker wrote:
Yogi_G wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:I counted 4 VHF antennas on the top forward of the Phalcon and another 11 on the bottom forward. A total of 15 VHF antennas indicates that there are at least 15 discrete parallel voice/data comm links coming in for air-air or air-ground comms. I couldn't make out if there were any VHF antennas in the aft of the aircraft.

It also appears to have an ECM/ECCM emitter/receiver on the bottom forward.

CORRECTED LATER
I missed another 6 VHF antennas on the bottom of the fuselage. My bet is that 1 Phalcon can communicate and control one squadron of IAF combat fighter aircraft.


My knowledge in this area is very limited but your statement on a Phalcon only being able to comm and control one squadron of IAF combat fighter aircraft seems a bit off to me....In a given theater of operation wouldn't an AWACS be expected to co-ordinate many squadrons at the same time over a given large area? Of course in IAF's context large strike groups would have air cover by MKI and possible in future MMRCA whose data links can pretty much be used to form mini AWACS co-ordinating within strike groups, so I would expect AWACS to just be able to co-ordinate more than one squadron..please clarify...


Voice & data comms to approximately 20 a/c simultaneously, they do not have be all in the same squadron. Yes, you could communicate with more a/c and other ground stations, but the point is that the Phalcon can have at least 20 VHF frequency channels open in parallel (or so it would appear at first glance).


Understood. Thanks. So AWACS can control and co-ordinate more than 20 aircraft but can only simultaneously maintain live link with 20 aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Mort Walker » 17 Jan 2009 21:09

People use the term mini AWACS for aircraft sharing data and coordinating their tactics is really misleading. An AWACS essentially implies air traffic control in the sky with its own powerful 3D radar guiding aircraft to particular set of coordinates. Imagine a situation where aircraft are operating their radar in reduced power mode with minimal voice comms and the AWACS are guiding them to the coordinates.

Its a very powerful force multiplier. With the Phalcon the IAF and IN can successfully obliterate (with conventional explosives) the port of Karachi with a minimal number of aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 17 Jan 2009 21:41

recently added photu of phalcon in tel aviv. taken on dec 5
http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6463760&nseq=0

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Mihir.D » 17 Jan 2009 22:01

p_saggu wrote:One interesting observation I would like to make here is with the stroies of the IAF being much impressed with the A-330 based refueller, is it a possibility then that the second line of Phalcons could also go that way? As I understand the A-330 based system would outclass an IL-76 based system both in terms of endurance and fuel efficiency. It is way too early to speculate.


Is there a link for this? When did the IAF get to use the A-330 MRTT ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 17 Jan 2009 22:03

from wiki, some details on A-50 developed for China. i guess IAF ordered pretty much the same system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_A-50
  1. the aircraft was fitted with the fixed mushroom-shaped radome with a diameter of 11.5m (the A-50 features a rotating radome with a diameter of 10.8m, while the US E-3A features a radome with a diameter of 9.1m), and pylons for the new radome; the radome design envisions housing three EL/M-205 Phalcon radar phased arrays, forming a triangle;
  2. the operators' cockpit and the rest room were quartered in the pressurised part of the fuselage; the aircraft was equipped with racks for housing the Phalcon radar units, operators' workstations and resting places;
  3. the aircraft was modified to accommodate a five-man strong flying crew, ten avionics operators, and nine by-crew members;
  4. the aircraft was fitted with an emergency hatch for the operators to bail out;
  5. the rear fuselage design was improved and ventral fins were mounted to provide the aircraft with directional stability;
  6. the airframe mounted 71 antennae, including 44 aerials of the Phalcon system;
  7. the nose and the rear fuselage, as well as wingtips were modified to quarter antennae of the electronic systems;
  8. electric power, liquid- and air-cooling, air-conditioning, oxygen supply, communications, and other systems were modified.



berievs website mentions the range of A-50 Radar against a ground tanks is 250km.
http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-50E_e/A-50E_e.html
is that true? can it detect convoys, tanks?
So we can use Phalcon for E-8 JSTARS type ground mapping missions too?

vivek_ahuja
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 17 Jan 2009 22:43

p_saggu wrote:One interesting observation I would like to make here is with the stories of the IAF being much impressed with the A-330 based refueller, is it a possibility then that the second line of Phalcons could also go that way?


I would like to repeat Mihir's request for link or some other material to substantiate the above.

As I understand the A-330 based system would outclass an IL-76 based system both in terms of endurance and fuel efficiency. It is way too early to speculate.


As well it should, given the decades difference between the preliminary designs of the two. But really, any civilian aircraft modified for the refueller role is definitely more suited for the requirement given the need for endurance and fuel efficiency. Having said that, changing the IL-76 engine will do the job as well. Notice the Phalcon and its more efficient high bypass engines. Instead of saying that a new refueller will define the old AWACs, why cannot the reverse be true? Why cannot the new AWACS shape the old refueller and drag it along?

JMT

-Vivek

shynee
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shynee » 17 Jan 2009 22:49

Two more Pics from Defense-Techonology

Pic1

Pic2

sum
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 17 Jan 2009 22:51

Mort Walker wrote:People use the term mini AWACS for aircraft sharing data and coordinating their tactics is really misleading. An AWACS essentially implies air traffic control in the sky with its own powerful 3D radar guiding aircraft to particular set of coordinates. Imagine a situation where aircraft are operating their radar in reduced power mode with minimal voice comms and the AWACS are guiding them to the coordinates.

Its a very powerful force multiplier. With the Phalcon the IAF and IN can successfully obliterate (with conventional explosives) the port of Karachi with a minimal number of aircraft.

Isnt the converse also true?
The PAF will be having quite a few AWACs themselves...the Y-8s, the SAABs and possibly, P-3s fitted with Hawkeye radars!!!

vivek_ahuja
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 17 Jan 2009 23:00

sum wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:People use the term mini AWACS for aircraft sharing data and coordinating their tactics is really misleading. An AWACS essentially implies air traffic control in the sky with its own powerful 3D radar guiding aircraft to particular set of coordinates. Imagine a situation where aircraft are operating their radar in reduced power mode with minimal voice comms and the AWACS are guiding them to the coordinates.

Its a very powerful force multiplier. With the Phalcon the IAF and IN can successfully obliterate (with conventional explosives) the port of Karachi with a minimal number of aircraft.


Isnt the converse also true?
The PAF will be having quite a few AWACs themselves...the Y-8s, the SAABs and possibly, P-3s fitted with Hawkeye radars!!!


Exactly right! People often forget that AWACS on both sides means that whether you operate in the reduced power mode or silent mode or fully active mode, it doesn't matter. To take a BVR shot, you still have to close the distance with the enemy. If the enemy has a AWACS with it that can see you coming, what difference does it make whether you are silent or active?

The only difference comes in situations where one side has an AWACS fleet that is perhaps short on endurance or limited in capability. That is, the side with the smaller or ill-equipped fleet might present gaps in the coverage that the other side might exploit as temporary advantages etc.

Then there are other things that can be done to negate the other side's fleet including anti-AWACS tactics, electronic warfare (you need dedicated aircraft for these, not wingtip pods) among others.

In the Indian/Pakistan/China context, everybody will be presenting some kind of gap or limitation in numbers that the other side might exploit in turns. The only way to beat it is to get more numbers and plug the numbers gap in addition to maintaining the technology gap that the Phalcon has provided us.

-Vivek

Mort Walker
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Mort Walker » 17 Jan 2009 23:06

The Y-8 and P-3 have limited speed, range and payload capability. Payload is important because the radar transmitter, comms, and ECM/ECCM equipment are very heavy. They (Y-8 and P-3) are useful for detecting low velocity - low flying aircraft and surface ship detection. The P-3 is useful for anti-submarine warfare. The SAAB is somewhat more useful in that its detection capabilities are more modern. However, all of them have to fly close to combat zones. The Phalcon and the E-3 can sit hundreds of miles away safely and see whats going on.
Last edited by Mort Walker on 17 Jan 2009 23:08, edited 1 time in total.


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