Indian Military Aviation

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vivek_ahuja
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 25 Jan 2009 18:39

Rahul M wrote:floggers will mainly be used in CAS, range will be a lesser concern in that.

I guess with the su's, jags and mirages the IAF reckons it has enough DPSA birds.


Not to mention the totally inadequate fleet of tankers that won't even be able to support the entire Jaguar fleet at any given time let alone the fuel thirsty Mig-27s.

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Anurag » 25 Jan 2009 22:05

Vivek, you're correct about the inadequate fleet of tankers. But the Mig-27 upgrades does not include IFR probe, so you can count them out.

Nevertheless, we need LOTS more tankers. I think the next move is towards the Airbus tankers. Although there were initial reports that after the first six Midas purchase, there was an option of another six. I don't think that has been exercised!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby atreya » 25 Jan 2009 22:32

I apologize for trying to derail the thread, but i couldn't start a new thread regarding my query...it was "IB4TL'd", and i was guided to this thread
I wanted to ask about the importance of electronic warfare aircraft in the air force....are they necessary? They have played a very important role in all conflicts of the USAF and are frontline aircraft. Eg. EA 6B Prowler, EA 18 Growler. Shudn't the IAF induct some EW aircraft? or arent they relevant enough in the indian scenario?
Experts, please throw some light on this topic.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Hiten » 25 Jan 2009 22:51

atreya wrote:I wanted to ask about the importance of electronic warfare aircraft in the air force....are they necessary?

read Wikipedia page on EW and decide
atreya wrote:Shudn't the IAF induct some EW aircraft? or arent they relevant enough in the indian scenario?

Flankers are capable of performing certain EW duties
ARC aircrafts are also used for this
the Navy has equipped its Bears to perform certain EW ops

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Aditya G » 25 Jan 2009 23:00

Anurag wrote:But the Mig-27 upgrades does not include IFR probe, so you can count them out.


Or do they?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/S ... Poster.JPG

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Aditya G » 25 Jan 2009 23:03

What about the Indian Navy? SHARS and TU-142s are already equipped with IFR probes.

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Rahul M wrote:floggers will mainly be used in CAS, range will be a lesser concern in that.

I guess with the su's, jags and mirages the IAF reckons it has enough DPSA birds.


Not to mention the totally inadequate fleet of tankers that won't even be able to support the entire Jaguar fleet at any given time let alone the fuel thirsty Mig-27s.

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 25 Jan 2009 23:14

Although there were initial reports that after the first six Midas purchase, there was an option of another six. I don't think that has been exercised!

I was under the impression that we had gone for more!!!
Have to check on that. Hope we do it soon if not done since six is woefully inadequate for a huge IAF.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 25 Jan 2009 23:15

Hiten wrote:Flankers are capable of performing certain EW duties
ARC aircrafts are also used for this
the Navy has equipped its Bears to perform certain EW ops

But, are these enough given the profile of both our adversaries?

Pakis are also getting a big number of AWACs(AF and naval P-3 Hawkeyes) and dedicated EW aircraft might be in order for the IAF. What do the gurus feel about this?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Jagan » 26 Jan 2009 10:00

Kartik wrote: (if it really was an upgraded MiG-27 in the pic, but looking at the HUD, it looked like an upgraded Flogger)


It is a upgraded flogger - sports the updated "TU" number instead of "TS"

Incidentally Mr. Pushpindar Singh's letter about Red Flag and Colonel Fornoff was also published towards the end under the title "Real story of Red Flag" - the claim of 21:1 is repeated there as well.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby atreya » 26 Jan 2009 12:33

sum wrote:
Hiten wrote:Flankers are capable of performing certain EW duties
ARC aircrafts are also used for this
the Navy has equipped its Bears to perform certain EW ops

But, are these enough given the profile of both our adversaries?

Pakis are also getting a big number of AWACs(AF and naval P-3 Hawkeyes) and dedicated EW aircraft might be in order for the IAF. What do the gurus feel about this?



That brings us to an important question. The difference between AWACS and EW aircraft. As i understand it, AWACS is more of a passive system...it consists of detecting enemy aircraft and directing friendly aircrafts against the former. While EW aircraft are meant to be more "active". They jam radars of enemy air defences, and are armed with anti-radar missiles, jamming pods, etc. Experts, kindly correct me if I am wrong.
Therefore, please do not think that both are replaceable. AWACS aircraft cannot perform the role of EW aircraft. Dedicated EW aircraft in the IAF fleet will give it a huge edge over PAF and PLAAF. Also, i don't think any other South Asian air force has EW aircraft in its inventory

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kartik » 26 Jan 2009 12:37

Jagan wrote:
Kartik wrote: (if it really was an upgraded MiG-27 in the pic, but looking at the HUD, it looked like an upgraded Flogger)


It is a upgraded flogger - sports the updated "TU" number instead of "TS"

Incidentally Mr. Pushpindar Singh's letter about Red Flag and Colonel Fornoff was also published towards the end under the title "Real story of Red Flag" - the claim of 21:1 is repeated there as well.


thanks Jagan. well that confirms that the upgrade, for some reason, didn't feature an IFR probe.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 26 Jan 2009 13:42

Also, i don't think any other South Asian air force has EW aircraft in its inventory

Not even China?

Even if it does have one, the sheer size and range of enemies of the IAF should ensure that we have a few dedicated EW aircraft(and not just Su-30s equipped with EW pods)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Jan 2009 13:56

Also, i don't think any other South Asian air force has EW aircraft in its inventory


Even if it does have one, the sheer size and range of enemies of the IAF should ensure that we have a few dedicated EW aircraft(and not just Su-30s equipped with EW pods)


I could be mistaken, but thought that IAF does/did have some dedicated EW a/c - floggers or fishbeds i think. Also, why won't a Su-30 equipped with pods/jammers work?

CM.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 26 Jan 2009 14:07

Cain Marko wrote:I could be mistaken, but thought that IAF does/did have some dedicated EW a/c - floggers or fishbeds i think. Also, why won't a Su-30 equipped with pods/jammers work?

CM.

But, are the few floggers and Su-30 enough to handle all the EW duties of the numerous AD networks of Pak + AWACs of Pak+ Chinese AD and AWACs on the east?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Jan 2009 14:24

sum wrote:But, are the few floggers and Su-30 enough to handle all the EW duties of the numerous AD networks of Pak + AWACs of Pak+ Chinese AD and AWACs on the east?


Frankly, I have no idea. I read your post out of context thinking that you meant that the MKI was not a worthy platform for EW. But to attempt an answer, I am guessing thats why they buying 230 odd MKI. A few of these could be converted to dedicated EW role. May not be as sophisticated as the growler, but MKI's sheer size/volume should offer plenty of space to carry an assortment massive EW gimmicrky. What can't be done via finesse could be done by sheer force perhaps?

JMT

regards,
CM.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 26 Jan 2009 16:45

even i am confused with this EW Thing.
while ALQ-99 is mentioned as most popular offensive jamming pod on A-6 Platform.
almost all other Jammers are mentioned as Self Protection ones.
That leaves many thinking why does only US have offensive jamming pods.

the main difference between ALQ-99 and general pod should be power and frequence range it would cover. Is there something else?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby atreya » 26 Jan 2009 21:00

Cain Marko wrote:
sum wrote:But, are the few floggers and Su-30 enough to handle all the EW duties of the numerous AD networks of Pak + AWACs of Pak+ Chinese AD and AWACs on the east?


Frankly, I have no idea. I read your post out of context thinking that you meant that the MKI was not a worthy platform for EW. But to attempt an answer, I am guessing thats why they buying 230 odd MKI. A few of these could be converted to dedicated EW role. May not be as sophisticated as the growler, but MKI's sheer size/volume should offer plenty of space to carry an assortment massive EW gimmicrky. What can't be done via finesse could be done by sheer force perhaps?

JMT

regards,
CM.


Cain Marko, I like your idea. i think Su 30 is too big a platform for EW role, but it is a much better option than having no EW aircraft at all.
Also, according to wikipedia, very few air forces in the world operate EW aircraft. EA 6B prowler, Growler, Tornado ECR, are the most common.
And acc. to wikipedia, China doesent have an EW aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby chetak » 27 Jan 2009 01:26

Hiten wrote:
atreya wrote:I wanted to ask about the importance of electronic warfare aircraft in the air force....are they necessary?

read Wikipedia page on EW and decide
atreya wrote:Shudn't the IAF induct some EW aircraft? or arent they relevant enough in the indian scenario?

Flankers are capable of performing certain EW duties
ARC aircrafts are also used for this
the Navy has equipped its Bears to perform certain EW ops



And the Dorniers

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 27 Jan 2009 01:34

chetak ji, is it EW or ELINT ?
would you mind naming the pods etc used in do-228 if possible ? w/o getting the NSA thrown at us I mean.
thanks.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby chetak » 27 Jan 2009 01:54

Rahul M wrote:chetak ji, is it EW or ELINT ?
would you mind naming the pods etc used in do-228 if possible ? w/o getting the NSA thrown at us I mean.
thanks.



Rahul M ji,
Meant ELINT.
No pods on the Dornier yet AFAIK

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby fanne » 27 Jan 2009 03:05

Our dedicated SEAD/EW was Mig23BN. I think they are still hush hush and in service.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby p_saggu » 27 Jan 2009 03:26

For all gurus,

A certain point of view is being expressed by someone claiming to be a retired Luftwaffe pilot in a certain unmentionable forum, in the title Mig-29 OVT in the airforces section.

Please go through it and enlighten us more about all that this individual has to say.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 27 Jan 2009 04:11

saggu ji, could you email me the link ?
thanks.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rupak » 27 Jan 2009 05:42

Jagan
Will you update the Orbat with the new info:
29 Sqn MiG-27UPG
10 Sqn MiG-27UPG
31 Sqn Su-30MKI
8 Sqn Su-30MKI
224 Sqn Jaguar IS

Also what sqn to the Hawks belong to?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Anurag » 27 Jan 2009 05:43

prahji! :wink:

Nice, I like the fact that Jodhpur has both the Scorpions (Mig-27's) and Thunderbirds (Mig-21Bisons) that have upgraded variants at a forward AFB.

Any idea where No.31 is going to be based? I sure hope it's Tezpur!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby p_saggu » 27 Jan 2009 08:54

Mail sent, please check...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Jagan » 27 Jan 2009 10:31

Rupak wrote:Jagan
Will you update the Orbat with the new info:
29 Sqn MiG-27UPG
10 Sqn MiG-27UPG
31 Sqn Su-30MKI
8 Sqn Su-30MKI
224 Sqn Jaguar IS

Also what sqn to the Hawks belong to?


yep - shortly!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 27 Jan 2009 18:01

Jagan wrote:
Rupak wrote:Jagan
Will you update the Orbat with the new info:
29 Sqn MiG-27UPG
10 Sqn MiG-27UPG
31 Sqn Su-30MKI
8 Sqn Su-30MKI
224 Sqn Jaguar IS

Also what sqn to the Hawks belong to?


yep - shortly!

sir why is No.2 numberplated. considering its such old and reputed Squadron, may be they should get Jaguars or Su-30MKI. Also why are UAVs Sqns not included in the page. Does IAF have a different number series for them.

Now that Recon Satellites are availaible, what is IAF going to do with 102?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 27 Jan 2009 18:17

ajay, why do you think no 2 is num plated ?
102 is already num plated for sometime.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 27 Jan 2009 18:23

Rahul M wrote:ajay, why do you think no 2 is num plated ?
102 is already num plated for sometime.

I was asking abt No.2 coz it was operating Mig-27s, which were inducted just in early 90s. 102 is num plated but whats next for them? there is no replacement for Mig-25 or Canberra, there would no dedicated recon manned aircraft in future, So why not just fill those squadrons with UAVs like Heron.
Last edited by ajay_ijn on 27 Jan 2009 18:30, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 27 Jan 2009 18:25

sir why is No.2 numberplated.
sorry, still don't get this. :-?
I mean it is not number plated, so...

these are the UAV sqdns btw : http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units/UAVs.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 27 Jan 2009 18:27

Rahul M wrote:
sir why is No.2 numberplated.
sorry, still don't get this. :-?
I mean it is not number plated, so...

but rahul, it was mentioned as numberplated in BR page.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units/Fleet.html
Number plated Units
Fighter 2, 8, 31, 45, 102, 220,
Transport: 19, 42

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 27 Jan 2009 18:30

OK, now I Understand your confusion.
but not according to this : http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units/Squadrons.html

:lol: so depends on which page was updated last !

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Jagan » 27 Jan 2009 18:36

Okay Rahul has already got to the answers first.

Yes, Need to update both the Fleet as well as Squadron page next time (Note to self)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 27 Jan 2009 18:41

Rahul M wrote:OK, now I Understand your confusion.
but not according to this :http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units/Squadrons.html

:lol: so depends on which page was updated last !

oh didn't read that. for some reason i cannot access BR website, So generally use google cache. now i cannot get this page on google cache too :(

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Jagan » 27 Jan 2009 18:45

ajay_ijn wrote:
Rahul M wrote:OK, now I Understand your confusion.
but not according to this :http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units/Squadrons.html

:lol: so depends on which page was updated last !

oh didn't read that. for some reason i cannot access BR website, So generally use google cache. now i cannot get this page on google cache too :(


Ajay, Check your Personal Message box

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 27 Jan 2009 19:20

Jagan wrote:
ajay_ijn wrote:oh didn't read that. for some reason i cannot access BR website, So generally use google cache. now i cannot get this page on google cache too :(


Ajay, Check your Personal Message box

thank you sir, i mailed them. But i cannot reply back to u, are PMs banned in BR?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Philip » 30 Jan 2009 11:05

A nice feature on the backbone of the IAF for decades and what the IAF should have too,the SU-34.

http://mnweekly.ru/world/20080424/55325432.html

MiG-21 approaches its twilight years

BRUSSELS, Belgium - An icon of the Cold War, the MiG-21 came to symbolize the military might of the Soviet Union as it squared off against the West in conflicts from Vietnam to Africa and the Middle East.

Now, exactly 50 years after it entered service, the jet fighter is approaching the twilight of its career in frontline service - with NATO, the former Soviet Union's main rival.

The rugged and agile jet earned a reputation as a versatile and effective short-range interceptor with low operating costs and excellent performance. Just like the Kalashnikov AK-47 automatic rifle - another robust and reliable weapon that epitomized Soviet power - the MiG-21 holds a unique place in military history.

"It was one of the best fighters ever, very reliable, and a real challenge to all pilots who fought against it," said David Ivry, a former chief of the Israeli Air Force who battled MiG-21s as a squadron leader in the 1967 Six-Day War and as a commander in the 1973 and 1982 wars.

MiGs derived their name from the initials of their designers, Artem Mikoyan and Mikhail Gurevich. Codenamed Fishbed by NATO, the MiG-21 gained fame during the Vietnam War, where it was used by the North Vietnamese air force to intercept American bombers.

Although heavily outnumbered, the small Fishbeds could evade radar and ambush U.S. formations with hit-and-run attacks in which many U.S. jets, including top-of-the line F-4 Phantoms, were downed or forced to abort their missions.

"The MiG-21 was lighter and more agile than the Phantom, which gave it a better chance to survive in a dogfight," wrote Russian aviation historian Vladimir Babich, who analyzed the MiG's performance in Vietnam.

The U.S. Air Force first gained vital insight into the Mig-21s capabilities after a defecting Iraqi pilot brought one to Israel in 1966. The Israelis also exploited their findings during the 1967 Six-Day war, when their surprise air strikes destroyed the Arab air forces on the ground.

Although the plane's performance was enhanced over the years, designers never succeeded in overcoming the limited fuel capacity, stemming from the design's small size. Another weakness was thick windshield framing that reduced the pilot's forward visibility, a serious problem during aerial combat.

Still, more than 10,000 MiG-21s were built, making it the most widely produced jet fighter ever built.

The delta-winged Mach 2 interceptor - Mach 2 is double the speed of sound - was widely exported and became the backbone of about 50 air forces in Europe, Africa and Asia. It was used in a dozen armed conflicts in the past 30 years, more than any other fighter in history.

In the 1970s, the U.S. introduced two jets which outperformed the MiG-21 - the new F-15 Eagles and F-16 Fighting Falcons. The Soviets countered with MiG-29s and Sukhoi-27s. By the 1980s the aging Fishbeds were relegated to second-line duties, like reconnaissance.

Russia has long since retired the MiG-21, but it remains operational with numerous air forces around the world.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, the USSR's former East European allies joined NATO, bringing more than 200 of their aging MiG-21s into the Western alliance.

Most have since been replaced, but the old warhorse soldiers on in NATO members Romania and Bulgaria, and in Croatia, scheduled to join the alliance in 2009. All three plan to retire the Fishbed over the next three or four years.

Alen Warnes, editor of Air Forces Monthly, a specialized British publication, noted that the MiG-21 is the last fighter from the 1950s to remain operational and that no other fighter has achieved such longevity.

"No aircraft has influenced military aviation in post-World War II Europe more than the MiG-21," Warnes said.

By Slobodan Lekic

The Associated Press
PS:The MIG-21Bisons of the IAF startled the USAF in the first air exercises between the two,supposedly getting the better of F-15s!

OT news item deleted.
Rahul.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 30 Jan 2009 16:21

from Shiv aroors blog

Boeing makes a comparision between capabilities of Chinook and Mi-26.
Improved Lift capability
Mission Capable regarding wind direction
Enhanced landing approach capability
Smaller Rotor blade
Greater rear loading capacity
Centre of Gravity envelope
Downwash Impact
High Altitidue all terrain performance

Boeing's presentation to the Indian Air Force comparing the CH-47 Chinook with the helicopter that the IAF currently uses, the Russian Mi-26 -- also the largest chopper around. The IAF wants 12-16 heavy lift copters. And soon. The other contenders are the Sikorsky CH-53 Super Stallion and Mil's Mi-26
.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby narayana » 30 Jan 2009 16:28

SAAB Integrated Defensive Aids Suite to Enhance HAL Dhruv ALH in USD 24 million Deal

Saab received two serial production orders for the Integrated Defensive Aids Suite (IDAS) for the Indian Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv in December 2008. The combined value of these orders from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is SEK 196 million (USD 24 million approx).

"We are proud of being a supplier for this advanced helicopter and look forward to continuing our cooperation and long term relationship with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited," says Micael Johansson, Managing Director for Saab Avitronics.


If they think that these are Advanced Helicopter,why dont they buy a few of them,it will add to the reputation of ALH if we have a European Customer.

And isnt SAAB the Provider of Awacs to Porkis,why are we buying from them in such case.

HAL Dhruv is in service in at least eight countries including India, Israel, Turkey and Ecuador.


The other countries i know which used Dhruv is Nepal,Bolivia it still counts to total Six


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