Indian Military Aviation

[Raj Malhotra]

from what i understand speed, afterburner, manuverability without reheat are major issues. So we would need Tejas with non-afterburning Kaveri or GEF404 and also good performance in transonic speed.

In fact you don't need a hotch-potch underpowered Tejas with new non-existing engines. The design of the Tejas is for a high performance aircraft and the manufacture of its parts is more complex (and expensive) for that reason. No point wasting all that effort for an AJT - that is like trying to make Mike Tyson into a Primary school teacher, or trying to put a 800 cc Maruti engine and extra seats in an F1 car and saying that this can be a family shopping/picnic type car..


You need a separate dedicated trainer aircraft. In fact it would be easier to do design a new one from ground up - but it requires national policy to do that. If you don't have a national policy to design a trainer from ground up, you can hardly get a national policy to do a hotch-potch fiddlle on the Tejas and call it "Advanced Jet Trainer"

Concept is sound in theory but dedicated combat aircraft like Hunter, Gnats, SkyHawk, Mig-21s have been extensively used as trainers not to mention T-50 etc. Hence better to have LCA as AJT till we have better indigenous AJT and combat LCA-II rather than import Hawk while simultaneously killing LCA off.

[vivek_ahuja]

HAL plans to develop trubo-prop plane

The Aircraft is called the HTT-40. It was being displayed at AI-09 in conceptual form. Here's a picture taken and posted by yaswanth on the BR AI-09 site:



-Vivek

[HariC]

LCA two seater as an AJT?

lets get something right. The LCA two seater can work as an Operations Trainer - the same role that the MiG-21s in the MOFTU fulfill. But it is not suited for the Advanced Jet Training that follows after graduation of pilots. This was done previously by Iskras and Kirans. Now the Hawk does it.

If you want to encourage desi maal, then a logical path would be to develop the IJT with advanced features (Integral Cannon, External Weapons etc). The CAT was the right approach before it was put on hold. Such an aircraft will have better low speed handling than a cranked delta winged LCA, results in better confidence among the pilots.

vivek, nice find but what is OBOGS?

[dipayan]

OBOGS is On-Board Oxygen Generating System.

http://www51.honeywell.com/aero/technol ... .html?c=13

[Cybaru]

The HTT-40 looks pretty decent.. Don't need PC-21 or anything like that. We are going to get IJT so that should be more than enough.

HTT-40 -> IJT -> AJT -> Type trainer seems like a decent enough path.

[Ajay K]

NDA or IAF should get the Su-29 for trainees to fly these gems - Highly acrobatic.

[shiv]

NDA or IAF should get the Su-29 for trainees to fly these gems - Highly acrobatic.

Why don't you write to NDA and IAF and tell them? Do the patriotic duty and all.

[vivek_ahuja]

Just a note to those wondering about the designation of the HTT-40:

HTT stands for Hindustan Turbo Trainer, much like how the HPT in HPT-32 stood for Hindustan Piston Trainer.

Overall, a pretty decent replacement for the type.

vivek, nice find

Thank you saar. I see that dipayan was able to answer your question about OBOGS.

-Vivek

[JaiS]

IAF to conduct tests on MIG 29 fleets

http://www.ptinews.com/pti\ptisite.nsf/ ... enDocument

[k prasad]

Yesterday's ToI had a tender from HAL's rotary wing R&D Centre (RWR&DC) for 68 IR supression suites for helicopters...

good luck with the guessing game.

[kvraghav]

^^
I can only think of WSI Dhruv as of now..

[k prasad]

^^
I can only think of WSI Dhruv as of now..

Yup... me too. goes well with the 158 being planned.

If someone can access the ToI epaper, you can post the full details... I tried, but it didn't open up for me.

[vivek_ahuja]

If someone can access the ToI epaper, you can post the full details... I tried, but it didn't open up for me.

That would be interesting to find out. Thing is, my guess is that the IR suppressors are for the 65 LCH being procured by the IAF rather than the WSI Dhruv (although we may see it there as well!). However, what is interesting is that IR suppressors are the first things that will have to go to improve high altitude performance so its really interesting that they are considering IR suppressors for these helicopters. It may be useful in operations in the plains though. So the details of the tender might give more insight into what they are intended for (assuming any details are mentioned at all)...

Can somebody please dig that TOI tender from the RWRDC...

Thanks in advance.

-Vivek

[krishnan]

The performance of indigenously developed IR-suppressor for engine exhaust duct of Advanced Light Helicopter
masterminded by the Department of Aerospace Engineering, IIT Bombay is proved successful by ground tests conducted
in RWR&DC HAL - Bangalore, in Dec'07. The non-specific stealth design concepts behind this critical component will
soon be published in AIAA's Journal of Propulsion & Power, authored by Prof. Mahulikar & his M.Tech. students, Mr.
H.S.S. Prasad & Mr. S.K. Potnur

http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache:rbV ... =firefox-a

[vivek_ahuja]

Finally found the document:






See, I told you it was for the LCH.

-Vivek

[vivek_ahuja]

Some gems from the document:

LCH is a twin engined helicopter. IR Suppression system is required to suppress the
IR Signatures radiated from the engine exhausts so as to reduce the probability of
locking on by any IR guided weapon.

The IR suppressor shall reduce the outer threat boundary from IGLA class of
missiles to less than 1.3 km in the rear hemisphere and less than 1 km in all
other aspects, from hover to maximum forward speed. The threat from the
modern Surface to Air and Air to Air missiles also shall be considered for
the design of the system. It is preferable to avoid ejection of engine hot
gases below and to the sides of the helicopter.

Target weight of the IR suppressor is to be 30 Kg combined for both engines

.

This makes sense given the weight issues the LCH currently faces

Power bleed due to IRSS installation is to be less than 2% maximum sustainable

This is very competitive. Not sure what the final result may be though

Operational G load of the LCH: -1 to 3.5g
Crash survivability g-force is 20g

Environmental conditions: up to 7000m

[sunilUpa]

Govt cancels tenders for 22 IAF attack helicopters

"The Request for Proposals (RFP) for the 22 attack helicopters have been cancelled, as the three offers received from foreign defence companies did not meet the Staff Qualitative Requirements set by the government. We will issue fresh RFP for the platform soon," the sources said.

Chai bisqoot galore! So GoI will not send the new RFP to these three contenders?

[sum]

Errr... if all three failed to meet the GSQR, whom will they send the RFP to the next time?

What exactly are these reqs which neither Mi-3x, Apache etc couldnt meet?

[ticky]

^ prolly lesser than expected kick backs

[vavinash]

Just cancel the deal and order 80-100 odd LCH. I don't see the need to buy new attack choppers when we are going to induct LCH in a couple of years. The Mi-35's have been upgraded and second hand ones should be sought till LCH arrives.

[sum]

The initial order of 80 was reduced to 22 after taking LCH into account since the 22 were supposed to be of a heavier class...

Not sure how the IAF will proceed now

[k prasad]

Excellent find Vivek... it means that LCH is far more ahead than I'd previously thought.

can you tell us how you found the tender... google tips plz.

On a related note, it might be a very good idea to search out from tender documents... lots of technical, OSINT info, free from DDM, and much earlier than reported in media.

[Sontu]

Errr... if all three failed to meet the GSQR, whom will they send the RFP to the next time?

What exactly are these reqs which neither Mi-3x, Apache etc couldnt meet?

No sir..it was not a QR issue..instead it is cancelled becaues Boieng (AH-64 D Longbow Apacha) and Bell(AH 1 Z Super Cobra) had quit this competition citing their own different reasons.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ntest.html

Bell Helicopter and Boeing have pulled out of India's $500 million attack helicopter competition, but some industry sources believe that New Delhi could modify some of the tender's terms to get both US manufacturers on board again.
India's defence ministry issued a request for proposals for 22 helicopters last May, and had hoped to evaluate the AgustaWestland AW129, Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow, Bell AH-1Z SuperCobra, Eurocopter Tiger, Kamov Ka-50 and Mil Mi-28.
The companies were originally given 90 days to respond, but Boeing asked for an eight-week extension to prepare a fully compliant proposal. The ministry offered only an additional month, prompting Boeing to withdraw.
"The company studied the government's request seriously and thoroughly, and Boeing executives participated in a pre-bidder's conference in New Delhi," says Boeing.
"However, following this review of the Indian air force's attack helicopter programme RFP, Boeing regretfully concluded that it will not be able to prepare in the time allotted a fully compliant proposal that addresses India's unique requirements. This was a difficult but necessary decision," it adds.
Bell chose not to participate as India insisted on a direct purchase from the manufacturers, with its AH-1Z only available via the US government's Foreign Military Sales mechanism.
"The [Indian] government was insisting on dealing directly with the company on this, but it was not possible in this instance and Bell chose to withdraw," says a source close to the company.Boeing believes that the Apache will remain a strong contender should there be a change of mind in New Delhi. "If future acquisition solicitation circumstances should change, Boeing respectfully requests that the numerous advantages offered by the AH-64D Apache be considered. Boeing remains committed to supporting India's long-term defence needs," says the company.
India's Hindustan Aeronautics hopes to propose its planned Light Combat Helicopter design for the tender, but the type may not be ready in time. Industry sources say that the remaining contenders submitted their proposals before the 30 September deadline, but that New Delhi is keen to have as wide a range of helicopters to choose from as possible.
"The [defence] ministry could do something to get both companies back in the fray. Ultimately, the ministry wants to have the best machines for its services and it would not be possible to make a proper decision when the Apache and Cobra are both not in the competition," says a New Delhi-based source.The air force hopes to sign a contract within two years and complete deliveries within a further three-year period. The tender is to replace the service's ageing Mil Mi-35 fleets. Its requirements include a twin-engined design capable of operating in all weather and terrain and of deploying turret-housed guns, rockets, and air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles.
EADS and India's Defence Avionics Research Establishment will pursue a requirement for an electronic warfare self-protection suite, having jointly developed and tested a new missile warning system based on the European company's AAR-69 MILDS system

If all remembers ..that even LOH heli tender cancelled and selection process was stopped, because BELL got out of the tender because of failure during evaluation process and complained of foul play by EADS.

Now India hinted towards signing CTBT...lots of things are happenning just before the General Elections ...so that hopes are kept alive for our foriegn freinds and businessmen in return some finance and other helps may be sought.

I hope CEC is watching ?

[uddu]

You guys are so naive. Fresh tenders for the helicopters will be issued soon, the sources said.

So some Amrikhan landing to discuss ISAT with Saran Apache is getting a chance to win the deal.

[Kartik]

Errr... if all three failed to meet the GSQR, whom will they send the RFP to the next time?

What exactly are these reqs which neither Mi-3x, Apache etc couldnt meet?

not Apache. the Tiger, Mil Mi-28N Night Hunter, Mangusta failed to meet it..must've been some super-duper requirements that none could meet..or else simply US pressure that this miserably weak Congress govt. succumbed to.

[Kartik]

^ prolly lesser than expected kick backs

not likely. US companies will be offering equipment through FMS programs, so no kickbacks are likely and its quite obvious that the re-tendering is being done so that Bell and Boeing will participate this time around. its mostly likely to be the Congress sarkar that is so enamoured with the US which led to cancellation of this current tender. I find it hard to believe that neither the Tiger, Mangusta or the Mi-28N could meet the Staff Requirements..

[Kartik]

Just cancel the deal and order 80-100 odd LCH. I don't see the need to buy new attack choppers when we are going to induct LCH in a couple of years. The Mi-35's have been upgraded and second hand ones should be sought till LCH arrives.

different weight classes. a heavier attack heli for the plains and the lighter, nimbler LCH for the higher altitude ops.

[Sontu]

^^^Boeing believes that the Apache will remain a strong contender should there be a change of mind in New Delhi. "If future acquisition solicitation circumstances should change".

Can some one clarify what the underlined texts were meant...what kind of change of mind in New Delhi, Boieng expects so as to participate/offer it's Apache?

This looks a different reason than that of the earlier one, Boeing earlier mentioned of "Insufficient Time for Preparation of a detailed Proposal".

Secondly why MOD is stating that the participants could not meet GSQR/ASQR requirements instead of telling the truth i.e. "This is cancelled due to few major companies did not submit the proposal". What is stopping them from letting the actual truth out ??? The forthcoming election ???

[vivek_ahuja]

Excellent find Vivek... it means that LCH is far more ahead than I'd previously thought.

can you tell us how you found the tender... google tips plz.

K Prasad,

I am currently stuck at work. That document was sent to me via email by a colleague. But I think it may be available on the HAL website. Else let me get home and upload the document directly and save you the trouble.

But yes, the tender is relatively high on details (specifically the powerplant) and is 400% ( ) better than DDM.

The LCH is getting closer to reality by the day. As far as I am concerned, let the IAF keep issuing RFPs for the foreign helicopters as long as they want. They are inevitably making it easier for the LCH to slip in...

-Vivek

[vivek_ahuja]

I find it hard to believe that neither the Tiger, Mangusta or the Mi-28N could meet the Staff Requirements..

Kartik,

It may very well be altitude ceilings. That's the one thing all of the above have in common: they are all helicopters designed to operate in relatively plain areas as compared to say the Himalayas. None of them are capable of operations in say the Aksai Chin unless they use racetrack attack patterns (which of course borders on kamikaze ops against a modern enemy). I personally will not be surprised if that was indeed one of the requirements in the RFP. Notice that the new and improved Apache can take heavy weight to high altitude thanks to its powerful powerplant. Might explain the Indian interest on the matter of the Apache's involvement in the contest.

But like I said above, IMHO I hope that the IAF and MoD keep procrastinating on this issue for the reasons mentioned in my previous post.

-Vivek

[sohamn]

This is definetely done to keep the Apache in. The US gov. also cleared the LM 2000 engine for installation in Talwars. I think the MM GOV is expecting something from the US Gov for this elections, or all these are in return for the Nuclear Deal.
But I pray, non is inducted and IAF goes for the LCH. This will definetely be the best option. Although LCH might not have the punch of the Apache/Tiger, but it can be made up by having them in more numbers. And as tank busters LCH should be good enough, since it would have a capacity to carry 8 anti-tank missiles.

[Kartik]

I find it hard to believe that neither the Tiger, Mangusta or the Mi-28N could meet the Staff Requirements..

Kartik,

It may very well be altitude ceilings. That's the one thing all of the above have in common: they are all helicopters designed to operate in relatively plain areas as compared to say the Himalayas. None of them are capable of operations in say the Aksai Chin unless they use racetrack attack patterns (which of course borders on kamikaze ops against a modern enemy). I personally will not be surprised if that was indeed one of the requirements in the RFP. Notice that the new and improved Apache can take heavy weight to high altitude thanks to its powerful powerplant. Might explain the Indian interest on the matter of the Apache's involvement in the contest.

But like I said above, IMHO I hope that the IAF and MoD keep procrastinating on this issue for the reasons mentioned in my previous post.

-Vivek

Then Vivek, it would make NO sense at all to send the RFPs to these 3 companies again. they should be dis-qualified on the grounds that they did'nt meet the Staff Requirements for high altitude performance and only Bell's AH-1Z Cobra and Boeing Apache should be sent the new RFP.

OTOH, if they're willing to dilute the requirements, just so all can participate again, then its a leniency I'd hope they'd extend to indigenous products as well.

[vivek_ahuja]

OTOH, if they're willing to dilute the requirements, just so all can participate again, then its a leniency I'd hope they'd extend to indigenous products as well.

That's exactly the thought that came to my mind. There has been a lot of rumor of "leniency" when it comes to foreign companies. I hope that is not the case, and if it is so, then as you say: they should do the same for local products. Unfortunately, pigs will fly before the latter happens.

-Vivek

[Kakarat]

Standard Presentation to 108 Squadron and 105 Helicopter unit by the President of India

The President of India, Smt Pratibha Devisingh Patil, presented the “Standards” to 108 Squadron and 105 Helicopter Unit, today in a magnificent ceremonial parade held at Air Force Station, Gorakhpur. At the occasion Shri T.V. Rajeshwar Rao, the Governor of Uttar Pradesh, Air Chief Marshal F H Major, PVSM AVSM SC VM ADC, Chief of the Air Staff, Air Marshal PP Rajkumar, AOC-in-C, Central Air Command, Air Marshal K D Singh AOC-in-C South Western Air Command and a number of other senior Air Force officers and civil dignitaries were also present. The ceremony included a Ceremonial Parade, a fly past by various aircraft including MI-8, Chetak, Cheetah helicopters, MIG-21s, Mirage 2000 and SU-30 MKI in various formations, as well as mid-air refuelling demonstration by IL-78 and Jaguars, aerobatics by SU-30 MKI, sky diving by Akash Ganga Team and a photo exhibition and release of First Day Covers.

This rare honour has been bestowed upon 108 Squadron and 105 Helicopter Unit in recognition of the dedicated and meritorious service rendered by the Units.

108 Squadron was formed on 20 Nov 1959. Ever since its inception, the Squadron operated from various bases across the length and breadth of the country. The Squadron took part in War for liberation of Goa and Indo-Pak War of 1965 and 1971. For its exceptional performance, in the Kargil operations, the Squadron was awarded Battle Honours by the President of India. The Squadron has till now won one Maha Vir Chakra, one Kirti Chakra, five Vishisht Seva Medal, two Vayu Sena Medal and eight Mention-in-Despatches. Presently the unit is located in Gujarat.The Sqn motto ‘Shodhan Aur Aakraman’ means ‘Search and Strike’. It enshrines the glorious history, embodies the noble traditions and represents the ethos of the Squadron. The glorious past infuses pride and confidence among all its personnel. This Squadron called the ‘Hawkeyes’ are formidable and a potent threat to any adversary casting an evil eye on the Country.

105 Helicopter Unit since its raising on 23 Nov 1959 is the second oldest helicopter unit of the IAF. The unit has several accomplishments to its credit and has participated in Indo-Chinese Conflict of 1962, the Indo-Pak Conflict of 1965, the 1971 Indo-Pak War and has taken active part in ‘Op Pawan’ during 1987-88. 105 Helicopter Unit has also carried out many missions in the last about 50 years taking part in most of the disaster relief operations including the Tsunami Relief Operations. Till now the unit has had the distinction of receiving One Vir Chakra, three Shaurya Chakras, 13 Vayu Sena Medals and two Vishist Seva Medals. 105 HU is named as ‘The Daring Eagles’ because it remains ever prepared to take on all challenges.

To mark this glorious chapter in the annals of the history of the Indian Air Force, the President of India also released First Day Covers for both the Air Force Units.

Award of Presidential Standard is a great honour bestowed upon an Air Force unit by the President, which represents its glory in terms of the exceptional service rendered to the nation both during war and peace. The award of Standard Presentation not only serves as a source of inspiration and esprit-de-corps among the fighting forces but also a symbol of excellence.

[Kailash]

not likely. US companies will be offering equipment through FMS programs, so no kickbacks are likely and its quite obvious that the re-tendering is being done so that Bell and Boeing will participate this time around. its mostly likely to be the Congress sarkar that is so enamoured with the US which led to cancellation of this current tender. I find it hard to believe that neither the Tiger, Mangusta or the Mi-28N could meet the Staff Requirements..

That's exactly the thought that came to my mind. There has been a lot of rumor of "leniency" when it comes to foreign companies. I hope that is not the case, and if it is so, then as you say: they should do the same for local products. Unfortunately, pigs will fly before the latter happens.

If any of the non-American copters did meet the ASR last time, the ASR may be modified so that only the Americans qualify this time around. The delays with the LCH has not helped much here..

The delay due to this cancellation and re-issue of the tender, its impact on numbers and operational readiness is not even being discussed. If the impact is minimal, let us not buy anything for the time being. If it is not, IAF should have closed the previous tender by awarding the contract to someone. Considering that the capabilities of the contestants have not changed much since last time, we don't want "a" capable platform, but "the" American platform. Either American lobbying is so effective or we are fighting to find ways to repay for the the nuclear deal !

[JaiS]

sarang, your post and related posts have been moved to the Newbie corner thread. Please feel free to ask your questions there.

[Philip]

Disgraceful! Simlpy appalling to see "two" helo contracts get waylaid because of clear US pressure.The GOI under SI Singh has sold the country out,with not even the veneer of a fig leaf to disguise its toadying to Uncle Sam.If the UPA gets back into power wihtout a Left "brake" as before,we will see the rest of the country that has not been pawned or mortgaged,sold off to the lowest firang bidder.Even the East India Co. was more honourable,as their top company agents went "native"!

[sunny]

LASER LASIK SURGERY IS ALLOWED IN IAF

but please see this link and post your comments..

laser lasik surgery is used to remove glasses from eyes , it takes less than 15 minute on machine
to remove glasses from eyes permanently

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090325/health.htm#3

THANKS

anyone please throw more light on this...