Indian Military Aviation

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 05 Feb 2009 19:48

This is for the noobs who keep under-estimating the capabilities of IAF. Don't see the chinks having the nerve or the jigar to carry out such ops.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 05 Feb 2009 20:42

Lockheed signs MoUs with 30 Indian cos; says Navy interested in F-35 JSF news.

America's biggest defence contractor, Lockheed Martin Corp, said it has signed about 30 initial agreements with Indian companies aimed at meeting the country's industrial and military offset requirements for an $11 billion, 126 medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Under the offset provisions, the Indian government requires the winning bidder in a military tender valued at more than $300 million to source production and services of at least 30 per cent of the contract value through local vendors. In the case of the MMRCA contract the offset requirements are higher – at least 50 per cent.

Lockheed has offered its scaled up Block 60 F-16IN fighter in the competition which also features Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company's Eurofighter Typhoon, the Swedish Saab Gripen's JAS-39, the French Dassault's Rafale and the Russian MiG-35.

"We've signed these memorandums of understanding with the Indian industry in anticipation of the Indian Air Force's medium multi-role combat aircraft order," Orville Prins, Lockheed's vice-president for business development in India said.

Lockheed's agreements include developing a simulator for the C130J Hercules transport aircraft with Mumbai-based Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd, a top Indian utility vehicle maker. The IAF has already contracted for the supply of six of these classic military transporters with options for at least six more.

The $1 billion deal was of immense significance for the US government and contractors as it broke a decade's long drought of near-zero sales by American companies to this country.

Lockheed said it is also developing a flight refueling system with state-run Hindustan Aeronautic Ltd. Other foreign partners on this project are Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. and Sargent Fletcher Inc.

"In Asia, India is the most significant opportunity," said Ralph Heath, executive vice president at Lockheed Martin and president of Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co.

"The Border Security Force has expressed interest in one or two C130J planes," Heath added.
He also said that the company was looking at partnering Indian companies in developing products for the global market. "There is technical expertise here that will add value to Lockheed Martin's products...so we are seeking a two-way partnership to benefit all," Heath said.

"In fact, the Indian Navy has expressed an interest in the F-35B which has short-takeoff and vertical-landing capability for aircraft carrier operations," Prins informed the media. "It (the F-16) is the bridge to the F-35 for India."

The fifth-generation F-35 Lightning II joint strike fighter is currently being developed with first deliveries slated for 2010. Lockheed, Pentagon's biggest contractor by sales, is also looking at civil contracts from the Indian government.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 05 Feb 2009 21:05

Vipul wrote:Lockheed signs MoUs with 30 Indian cos; says Navy interested in F-35 JSF news.

"The Border Security Force has expressed interest in one or two C130J planes," Heath added.

Why does BSF need these planes ? Expect the air-heads in IAF raise hell on this. Must be DDM, helis make sense, but Hercules ?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 05 Feb 2009 21:10

This newsreport mentions why, and that BSF has one plane which can carry just 40 Jawans.
NSG would love to have these planes too.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 06 Feb 2009 01:44

Intermediate Jet Trainer lands on belly

Intermediate Jet Trainer lands on belly

Ravi Sharma

BANGALORE: In a setback to the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s (HAL) Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) programme, the Prototype Trainer Two (PT2), landed on its belly at the HAL airport here on Wednesday evening after a routine aerobatic sortie. The programme is already delayed by four years,

The sortie was undertaken as part of the preparations for the next week’s “Aero India 2009” air show here.

The aircraft was piloted by HAL’s Executive Director - Chief Test Pilot (Fixed Wing) Squadron Leader Baldev Singh (retd.) and Wing Commander C. Subramaniam, an Indian Air Force fighter pilot on deputation to HAL.

Eyewitnesses said the aircraft appeared to do a normal touch-down, rolled and then the wheels started retracting, forcing it to land on its belly.

Landing speed

Initial indications are that the landing speed of the aircraft could have been a shade too fast, prompting the pilots to try and retract the undercarriage, and do a touch and go as the aircraft was likely to overshoot the runway.

There were suggestions that one of the tyres could have burst during landing, resulting in brake failure. A court of inquiry, headed by Benji Mammen, HAL’s Chief of Project, Light Combat Aircraft, has been set up to look into the incident.

There was structural damage to the undercarriage and belly, the doors and one of the wing tips.

HAL’s only chance of showcasing the IJT at the air show now rests on PT1, the prototype that suffered a crash in February 2007 (during Aero India 2007) when the canopy opened just before take-off.

The PTI, which has not been flown since then, was recently fitted with the Russian AL-55I engine. While one ground run with the AL-55I (‘I’ for Indian) is over it is yet to get airborne.

Meant to be the backbone of the IAF’s combat pilot training programme, the IJT programme was sanctioned by the government in 1999. Making its first flight in March 2003, it was meant to replace the IAF’s workhorse, Kiran.

Around 225 HJT-36s are to be produced, serving the IAF, the Navy as well as the Air Force’s Surya Kiran aerobatic team.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Feb 2009 02:45

The PTI, which has not been flown since then, was recently fitted with the Russian AL-55I engine. While one ground run with the AL-55I (‘I’ for Indian) is over it is yet to get airborne.

.

Progress ............. slow(ly).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Feb 2009 05:13

may be changing the name from sitara could help.

dipayan · Post by **dipayan** » 06 Feb 2009 05:17

RaviBg wrote:Intermediate Jet Trainer lands on belly

Initial indications are that the landing speed of the aircraft could have been a shade too fast, prompting the pilots to try and retract the undercarriage, and do a touch and go as the aircraft was likely to overshoot the runway.

I have a question which may sound silly

Why did they have to retract the undercarriage when could have done a normal aborted landing with wheels down??

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 06 Feb 2009 06:28

Aeroindia + IJT + Baldev Singh = Jinxed

two days short of two years!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Feb 2009 06:50

Jagan wrote: Aeroindia + IJT + Baldev Singh = Jinxed

Am glad you said that.

On retracting, once the wheel touch the ground I would expect that the pilot can no longer "retract" the wheels. Isn't there some "Law" of that sorts in aviation techs? Some ground-law that the computer checks to ensure a sleepy pilot does not do the unthinkable? Or is there a good reason for the absence of such a thinking?

I think it is wise to ground the IJT for this AeroIndia thing.

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 06 Feb 2009 07:19

This graphic shows that the Gulfstream based Phalcon has 9 hours on station capability at 500 nautical miles (926 km) away. And 6 hrs on station at 1000 nm distance.

What is the Il-76 based Phalcon's ToS at those ranges?

On a separate topic, IAI is talking with Bombardier to develop a MPA. May have a bearing on the IN's and ICG's RFPs for MR-MPAs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Feb 2009 09:09

trickle funding for you. with a paltry two prototypes for Saras and IJT just shows the kind of backing GoI gives to important projects.

there should have been atleast 5 IJTs in flyable condition today to speed up and complete the test program.

I predict we will end up buying some other foreign product.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 06 Feb 2009 09:36

The IJT must press on. Aero India does not matter. They should get several prototypes up and running.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Feb 2009 09:53

The IJTs were delayed because of the RUian engine were delayed. The second IJT has had the RUian engine installed - it should start flying in a few weeks I would imagine. The question now is if that engine is worth the wait.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 06 Feb 2009 11:03

i think that Mi-26 is out of production so we have to compare:-

CH-53K vs Ch-47F vs Mi-46

CH-53K

Crew: 5: 2 pilots, 1 crew chief/right gunner, 1 left gunner, 1 tail gunner (combat crew)
Capacity: 37 troops (55 with centerline seats installed)
Payload: * 27,000 lb (12,240 kg)
Length: 99 ft 1/2 in (30.2 m)
Rotor diameter: 79 ft (24 m)
Height: 27 ft 9 in (8.46 m)
Disc area: 4,900 ft² (460 m²)
Empty weight: 33,226 lb (15,071 kg)
Loaded weight: 74,000 lb (33,600 kg)
Max takeoff weight: * 84,700 lb (38,400 kg)
Powerplant: 3× *General Electric GE38-1B turboshaft, * 6,140 shp (4,580 kW) each
Rotor systems: 7 blades on main rotor, 4 blades on tail rotor
Performance

Cruise speed: * 170 knots (196 mph, 315 km/h)
Range: * 454 nmi (841 km) no reserves
Combat radius: * 110 nmi (126 mi, 204 km)
Service ceiling * 14,400 ft (4,380 m)
Rate of climb: 2,500 ft/min (13 m/s)
Armament

Ch-47F
Length: Fuselage – 52.0 ft. (15.9 m) Incl. Rotors – 99.0 ft. (30.18 m)
• Width: 12.42 ft (3,78 m)
• Rotor Diameter: 60 ft. (18.29 m)
• Height: 18.92 ft. (5.77 m)
• Propulsion: 2 Honeywell 55GA714A
engines, 4,733 shp (3,529 kW) each
• Speed: 155 kt (287 km/h)
• Fuel: 1,034 gal. (3,914 L)
• Service Ceiling: 20,000 feet
• Useful Load: 24,000 lbs. (10, 886 kg)
• Mission Radius: 200 nm (370.4 km)
• Max Gross Weight: 50,000 lbs. (22,668 kg)

Mi-46

TYPE: Twin-turboshaft passenger/freight transport helicopter.

PROGRAMME: Project announced summer 1992; no further announcements.

DESIGN FEATURES: Replacement for Mi-6, with T-O weight just over half that of Mi-26. General configuration similar to Mi-26; seven-blade main rotor, five-blade tail rotor; non-retractable tricycle landing gear with twin wheels on each unit; few windows in hold; rear-loading ramp and doors; engines above hold, forward of main rotor driveshaft.

POWER PLANT: Two new-type Aviadvigatel turboshafts, each 5,590 kW (7,495 shp).

ACCOMMODATION: Equipped normally to carry freight.

Brouchure from chor site

Estimated prices

CH-47F US$ 80 million a piece

CH-53k US$ US$ 150 million

Mi-46 US$ 30 million but the it is still in development (and China is also angling for JV for joint production)

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 06 Feb 2009 11:23

Malhotra saar,

Other than dimensions, I would not turn towards wikipedia (or even brochures) for performance data. Frankly speaking, they tell you nothing about the performance of the aircraft other than its best values which will never happen together. Even those data points are inaccurately reported by biased sources or presented in an incomplete format. What you need are performance charts that no one will actually provide.

I realize that I am providing the problem but not the solution, but that's where we currently stand as of now.

-Vivek

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 06 Feb 2009 12:37

It is no doubt that you are correct on this score but this info gives a basic start. Also the point i was making is that Mi-26 may not be in contention at all.

vivek_ahuja wrote:Malhotra saar,

Other than dimensions, I would not turn towards wikipedia (or even brochures) for performance data. Frankly speaking, they tell you nothing about the performance of the aircraft other than its best values which will never happen together. Even those data points are inaccurately reported by biased sources or presented in an incomplete format. What you need are performance charts that no one will actually provide.

I realize that I am providing the problem but not the solution, but that's where we currently stand as of now.

-Vivek

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Feb 2009 12:42

http://www.iitk.ac.in/nwtf/

if you click above link for national wind tunnel facility in iitk, a series
of pix comes on the right. I can see saras and tejas. what intrigrues me
are the parachute glided munitions being tested....is that a torpedo and
some kind of gliding retarded bomb?
maybe the NPOL LWT after being accepted on ships was also being
tested for deployment from helis and aircraft?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Feb 2009 12:43

btw four Luftwaffe eurofighters landed yesterday in Yelehanka for
the static show and demos per TOI.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Feb 2009 13:40

From Wiki:

The Indian Air Force purchased six C-130Js in early 2008 at a cost of US$ 1.059 billion.[5] It is a package deal with the US government under its Foreign Military Sales Program (FMS), and India has retained options to buy six more of these aircraft for its special forces for combined army-air force operations.[6]

The Canadian Forces signed a US$1.4 billion contract with Lockheed Martin for 17 new C-130J-30s on 16 January 2008, as part of the procurement process to replace the existing CC-130E and H models.[7] The C-130J will be officially designated CC-130J Hercules in Canadian Forces service.[8]

The Government of Qatar has also placed an order for four C-130Js, spare parts and training for the Qatari Emiri Air Force for a total of US$393.6 million. Deliveries are scheduled to begin in 2011. [11]

What is so special in the Indian C-130s that it is nearly twice the price of other buyers? The other buyers price includes spares, maintenance etc.

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Feb 2009 13:51

If i recall right nearly 30% of the price of the India s J version is for the electronics stuff that is included.Some 'guru' can shed some light on what exactly is included in the deal.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 06 Feb 2009 14:14

if the cost is to be justified then it must be closer to HC/MC-130J. Israel purchased 9 C-130Js for 1.9 billion USD.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Feb 2009 14:37

with the MTA going nowhere perhaps its time to bite the bullet and
just get the cargo stretched version of the C130 as our theatre airlift.
with a giant installed base and various tranches all around the world,
this bird has a secure future for next 50 years atleast.

we could even start a assembly line here as part of the offset clause.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 06 Feb 2009 15:04

Singha wrote:with the MTA going nowhere perhaps its time to bite the bullet and
just get the cargo stretched version of the C130 as our theatre airlift.
with a giant installed base and various tranches all around the world,
this bird has a secure future for next 50 years atleast.

we could even start a assembly line here as part of the offset clause.

what about the costs. IL-76MF would easily match the costs of C-130J but has double the payload. i am not sure about the maintainence issues of 76 but with engine, its peformance would be much better than previous versions.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 06 Feb 2009 19:42

headlines today reporting that Indigo flight was escorted by Mig-21s to probably prevent 9/11 type attacks.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 06 Feb 2009 19:49

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/02/ ... craft.html

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Feb 2009 19:55

WSI dhruv ! cool !

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 06 Feb 2009 20:02

That's one cool paint scheme....

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 06 Feb 2009 20:13

Video:Up close with ADE's UAV, Nishant.

Nishant, an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) has been developed for the Indian army by the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), a part of the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), for gathering information over an area, surveillance, target acquisition, artillery fire correction, damage assessment and signal intelligence.

Nishant, which weighs about 375 kg, requires rail-launching from a hydro-pneumatic launcher at a velocity of 45 m/s in 0.6 seconds with 100 kw power, and the recovery process is through a parachute system. The subsequent launches can be carried out in intervals of 20 minutes. About 1000 launches can be made before it requires an overhaul.

Nishant, due to its weight, the capability of being catapulted and recovered by using a parachute, is one of the few UAVs in the world which jettisons the need for a runway for the conventional take-off and landing with wheels.

The UAV has a jam resistant datalink and a range of 160 km with an endurance of 4 hours 30 minutes. The UAV is modular in construction and can be packed in a pallet for easy transportation.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Feb 2009 22:27

sunilUpa wrote:That's one cool paint scheme....

Ajai Shukla without beard!!!

And a mean looking beast behind him!!!

If the WSI looks so kick-@$$, wonder how the LAH will look?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Feb 2009 22:56

sum, LCH not LAH. LAH was the older designation but they dubbed the Lancer LAH, and called this one LCH.

I sure hope the TD1 LCH is nearing completion !

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Feb 2009 23:15

the giant cannon and general posture looks great.

but I hope that enclose the cabin in a metal & kevlar bathtub
rather than keeping the thin doors and glass panels near the pilots
feet. even at expense of some range and speed, it is desirable to
get that done jmho....else we will end up with a flying T72

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 06 Feb 2009 23:28

Vick wrote:This graphic shows that the Gulfstream based Phalcon has 9 hours on station capability at 500 nautical miles (926 km) away. And 6 hrs on station at 1000 nm distance.

What is the Il-76 based Phalcon's ToS at those ranges?

Vick,

I have attached a graphics of my own based on the analysis I had done for the tankers etc (check previous pages of this thread for details). In any case, here are some of my own numbers:

Even with the up engined design, the Phalcon fuel efficiency does not match western designs. The values in the above graph is nearly the same. The reason why the IL-76 based model was selected was mainly because of the similarity in infrastructure and basing facilities (and flight and ground crew experience and availability during wartime). Overall costs reduce as a result of seeing the big picture.

Regards.

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 06 Feb 2009 23:35

Singha wrote:the giant cannon and general posture looks great.

but I hope that enclose the cabin in a metal & kevlar bathtub
rather than keeping the thin doors and glass panels near the pilots
feet. even at expense of some range and speed, it is desirable to
get that done jmho....else we will end up with a flying T72

High altitude performance suffers as a result of excessive armor around engines, drive systems, cockpit etc. The reason you see thin plating on the LCH is because of the heavy use of composites in the design. Basically speaking, the reason the AH-64 is beginning to reach the operating altitudes of the LCH even with its massive armor etc is because of the hugely powerful powerplants driving it. In India we are still dependent on powerplant imports from outside and are yet to produce a design with a heavy power drive system. Until that happens, we will have to compensate by reducing weights elsewhere. Just part of the learning curve.

Having said that, the ballistic resistance of the LCH is made up for using the composites. The AH-64 design started in the 70s. There were no composites of this kind back then. Thirty years later, the reference standard has changed.

-Vivek

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 07 Feb 2009 00:05

Singha wrote:the giant cannon and general posture looks great.

but I hope that enclose the cabin in a metal & kevlar bathtub
rather than keeping the thin doors and glass panels near the pilots
feet. even at expense of some range and speed, it is desirable to
get that done jmho....else we will end up with a flying T72

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3354
http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/jun07/june.pdf

DRDO has designed and developed composite amour panels for the Advanced Light Helicopter (Army variant) as per the requirement of RWR&DC Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (Helicopter Division), Bangalore. The armour panels provide protection to aircrew and critical parts of the helicopter against 12.7 mm API bullet hits.

Composite laminates have been made using Kevlar fabric as reinforcement and modified epoxy resin as matrix. Kevlar-epoxy composite laminates of different thicknesses have been prepared by compression molding process with optimum fiber-to-resin ratio maintained at 75:25 per cent by weight. The Kevlar-epoxy composite laminates have been bonded with alumina ceramic cylindrical pellets with the help of epoxy structural adhesive.

A spall cover has been fixed over the ceramic pellets after gaps between them were filled with modified epoxy resin. Armour test panels have been subjected to firing trials against 12.7 mm ammunition at Ordnance Factory, Varangaon, and successfully provided ballistic protection. Prototype armour panels have been manufactured in collaboration with M/s Taneja Aerospace and Aviation Ltd, Bangalore, as per design requirement of the user. Carriage and flight trials of the panels have also been successfully conducted and found satisfactory.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Feb 2009 00:19

from this Jan's DRDO newsletter :
http://www.drdo.com/pub/nl/2009/jan09.pdf

A number of accomplishments have been made in the
Materials group of laboratories; these relate to camouflage
pattern generation software, lightweight synthetic life
jacket, water purification system, composite armour for use
on the lightweight Helicopter, based on advanced ceramic
and polymer composites, hollow ceramic cores for cooling
channel in Gas Turbine blades and engine components and
high temperature gasket for sealing system ofejector system
for LCA are otherinterestingdevelopments.
A number ofNBC defma: system such

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 07 Feb 2009 18:29

Govt to induct Dhruv choppers to carry forces.

As a part of the measures to augment the response of security forces post 26/11, the Union home ministry has decided to induct eight ‘Dhruv’ Advanced Light Helicopters by next month for quick mobilisation of forces to deal with any emergency in the country at short notice.

These helicopters will be located at four cities — Jammu, Delhi , Guwahati and Patna — and will be available for paramilitary forces, including the elite anti-terror National Security Guard (NSG) as well as the state police.

A number of Dhruv ALHs — having capabilities for heli-borne assault, logistic support, reconnaissance , training and casualty evacuation — are currently being used by Army, Air Force and Coast Guard. A senior home ministry official said that the decision to induct the eight Dhruv ALHs was taken recently in a high-level meeting chaired by cabinet secretary K M Chandrasekhar over measures to be taken for “augmenting and equipping a streamlined anti-terrorist force”.

“Initially, two Dhruv ALHs each will be stationed in the four cities. Later, more cities will get those helicopters,” said the official . Since the ministry does not have available infrastructure for operationalizing the Dhruv fleet at designated bases, it was decided to first use the hangars of BSF and other agencies.

Sources in the ministry said that though Jammu, Delhi and Guwahati would not have a problem in having the hangars, the government was currently exploring different options for the induction at Patna. One of the options is to first operationalise it from Ranchi using the Coal India Ltd hangar till such time as infrastructure is created at Patna , they added.

The places for locating the helicopters have been selected after several rounds of consultations with NSG and other agencies. In Delhi, the two ALHs will initially be located near the NSG headquarters at the newly-acquired site along the airport.

The Dhruv ALH is designed and developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. It is a unique multirole, state-of-the-art , costeffective helicopter having a passenger capacity of 12.

sum · Post by **sum** » 07 Feb 2009 18:45

Who is going to pilot these 8 machines?

Already, the existing copters are rusting away in different states due to lack of pilots.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 07 Feb 2009 19:11

sum wrote:Who is going to pilot these 8 machines?

Already, the existing copters are rusting away in different states due to lack of pilots.

Lalu ji can surely do in Patna.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Feb 2009 20:39

NRao wrote:
Jagan wrote: Aeroindia + IJT + Baldev Singh = Jinxed
Am glad you said that.

On retracting, once the wheel touch the ground I would expect that the pilot can no longer "retract" the wheels. Isn't there some "Law" of that sorts in aviation techs? Some ground-law that the computer checks to ensure a sleepy pilot does not do the unthinkable? Or is there a good reason for the absence of such a thinking?

I think it is wise to ground the IJT for this AeroIndia thing.

There is a "squat switch" which compresses and makes / breaks electrical contact (depending on the system design) when the aircraft weight is on the wheels. This theoretically deactivates the undercarriage retraction circuits. It can be bypassed in any number of ways and maintenance crews routinely do it to conduct under carriage retraction tests while the aircraft is on jacks.

This switch has also to be properly adjusted and positioned accurately
so that it activates as required.

Investigations are in progress but it seems that only the main oleos
collapsed and not the nose.