Indian Military Aviation

[namit k]

edited.

[namit k]

edited.

[Dmurphy]

that jet trainer was supposed to train future pakfa pilots, which according to ivanov will beat f22 in maneuverability and belly landings

its better to switch off ruski music now

Whats so funny about it? And its an intermediate trainer, with the AJT training to follow.
IIRC, Su-30 MKI's prototype crashed too, but the final product's turned out OK, don't you think?

[Jagan]

It is interesting to see that only THE HINDU reported the IJT belly landing. Either the rest of the press didnt get the news or they simply dont care.

[krishnan]

Nope, they are writing an article which will go like "IJT a huge failure after so and so years" and blah blah blah

[putnanja]

Shortage of Hawks hits pilots’ training

Shortage of Hawks hits pilots’ training

Ravi Sharma

More trainees will fly the aging

Kiran aircraft

Shortage is due to want of spares

BANGALORE: An insufficient number of Hawk Advanced Jet Trainers (AJTs) has forced the Indian Air Force (IAF) to reduce by half the number of personnel who will train on these recently inducted aircraft.

The IAF, which has started using the BAE Systems, designed and developed Hawk AJT at the Air Force Station at Bidar for the third and fourth semesters of its fighter pilot training programme. It was supposed to have 39 direct supply and licence assembled Hawks in its inventory by March 2009.

Against this there are just 23 Hawks at Bidar, with some of these being grounded for want of spares, maintenance or quality control issues such as cockpit humidity.

The shortage has meant that the IAF that had trained 18 trainees (out of a batch of 38) on the Hawk during their third semester (July–December 2008), and would have liked to train a further 18 (or more) from the current batch, has been forced to cut down the number to just nine (out of 35). This has resulted in more trainees flying the aging Hindustan Aeronautics Limited built, Kiran trainers, forcing the IAF to use an aircraft that is almost at the end of its service life.

(A Kiran Mk2 used by the IAF’s aerobatic team crashed near Bidar on January 21 killing its pilot.)

The shortage has arisen because of HAL’s inability to hand over 10-11 Hawks by December 2008 and 15 by March 2009, and also due to the non-availability of minor spares.

Delay in deliveries

HAL has delivered just one aircraft so far, prompting the Vice Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal P.V. Naik, to write to the Ministry of Defence to say that the “delay in deliveries would seriously affect the training schedule on Hawk aircraft.”

The letter also says that the delays would “in the long term adversely affect the number of pilots available to operational squadrons of the IAF.”

A senior officer told The Hindu that the IAF had managed to reduce aircraft downtime and the spares position was improving.

Biggest worry

“Though BAE Systems were aware of the tropical conditions the Hawks would operate in, neither they nor the IAF were able to anticipate problems associated with maintenance, workmanship and spares. The IAF has written numerous letters to BAE Systems and they have ensured that these issues will be sorted out. But our biggest worry is numbers.”

Officials from HAL admit that the “delivery schedules have slipped by at least six months.”

[Rahul M]

http://www.forceindia.net/industryinterview-1.aspx

'HAL has submitted a proposal for indigenous development of a Light Utility Helicopter in 3 Ton category'
Director, Corporate Planning and Marketing, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited
M. Fakruddin

...........

The Design freeze, Configuration freeze and evaluation of Mock-up have already been completed. Even the structural assembly of the first prototype has commenced. In fact, the first flight of the prototype is targeted by middle of 2009. The sanction for the LCH development has been granted based on the requirement projected by the IAF.
..........................

HAL has submitted a proposal for indigenous development of a Light Utility Helicopter in 3 Ton category.

[shiv]

Shortage of Hawks hits pilots’ training

“Though BAE Systems were aware of the tropical conditions the Hawks would operate in, neither they nor the IAF were able to anticipate problems associated with maintenance, workmanship and spares. The IAF has written numerous letters to BAE Systems and they have ensured that these issues will be sorted out. But our biggest worry is numbers.”

Officials from HAL admit that the “delivery schedules have slipped by at least six months.”

[/quote]

On a more philosophical note - I would ask people just to store the above paragraph in their memories.

When India orders any hi-tech system from the west - everything looks good at the start. The delivery schedules and performance are better than what our local buffoons of DRDO and HAL can deliver and the halo effect of "Om namo Western Technology" looks terrific.

But when you actually start getting the stuff - you find that imported maal requires as much fiddling and "adjushting" as local maal if you need to make it here. The fully assembled stuff with maintenance done abroad - always at high cost is always best.

When we try doing things here we not only lack skills, we lack confidence in existing skills and we always howl that hi tech items are not ready after 25 or 35 years.

There are no easy choices. The Hawk is supposed to be "mature" technology that is actually beyond its peak. But we still have problems because it was designed and made in the UK for UK materials, workmanship and technology.

Apply the problems that we see here to what we are likely to see is we get the F-35, as some people suggest

[sunilUpa]

^ True, however picture is not complete without the capacity to develop, and produce local mal and then check it's reliability. Looking at HAL's inability to stick to the delievry schedule of even Licence produced 'Foreign mal', we still have some distance to go before we can have some degree of confidence that 'Local mal' will be delivered as promised within reasonable timeframe. (Note - Ididn't say within agreed upon timeframe).

[ajay_ijn]

On a more philosophical note - I would ask people just to store the above paragraph in their memories.

When India orders any hi-tech system from the west - everything looks good at the start. The delivery schedules and performance are better than what our local buffoons of DRDO and HAL can deliver and the halo effect of "Om namo Western Technology" looks terrific.

But when you actually start getting the stuff - you find that imported maal requires as much fiddling and "adjushting" as local maal if you need to make it here. The fully assembled stuff with maintenance done abroad - always at high cost is always best.

When we try doing things here we not only lack skills, we lack confidence in existing skills and we always howl that hi tech items are not ready after 25 or 35 years.

There are no easy choices. The Hawk is supposed to be "mature" technology that is actually beyond its peak. But we still have problems because it was designed and made in the UK for UK materials, workmanship and technology.

Apply the problems that we see here to what we are likely to see is we get the F-35, as some people suggest

This isn't the first time we are importin, license producing or servicing british aircraft. we are doing since pre-independence times, So why they couldn't anticipate effect of Indias conditions on Hawk or may be its pretty normal, could happen with any newly inducted aircraft.

[chetak]

On a more philosophical note - I would ask people just to store the above paragraph in their memories.

When India orders any hi-tech system from the west - everything looks good at the start. The delivery schedules and performance are better than what our local buffoons of DRDO and HAL can deliver and the halo effect of "Om namo Western Technology" looks terrific.

But when you actually start getting the stuff - you find that imported maal requires as much fiddling and "adjushting" as local maal if you need to make it here. The fully assembled stuff with maintenance done abroad - always at high cost is always best.

When we try doing things here we not only lack skills, we lack confidence in existing skills and we always howl that hi tech items are not ready after 25 or 35 years.

There are no easy choices. The Hawk is supposed to be "mature" technology that is actually beyond its peak. But we still have problems because it was designed and made in the UK for UK materials, workmanship and technology.

Apply the problems that we see here to what we are likely to see is we get the F-35, as some people suggest

This isn't the first time we are importin, license producing or servicing british aircraft. we are doing since pre-independence times, So why they couldn't anticipate effect of Indias conditions on Hawk or may be its pretty normal, could happen with any newly inducted aircraft.

ajay_ijn ji,

What delivery schedules?

As long as HAL fills it's order books, they don't give jack shit about their customers.

They can hire more people, send their officers abroad for "training", keep the unions quiet and book massive profits on the cost plus formula thereby boosting the chances of the chairman getting a padmashri or whatever!

The customer is never in the equation

[AmitR]

On a more philosophical note - I would ask people just to store the above paragraph in their memories.

When India orders any hi-tech system from the west - everything looks good at the start. The delivery schedules and performance are better than what our local buffoons of DRDO and HAL can deliver and the halo effect of "Om namo Western Technology" looks terrific.

But when you actually start getting the stuff - you find that imported maal requires as much fiddling and "adjushting" as local maal if you need to make it here. The fully assembled stuff with maintenance done abroad - always at high cost is always best.

When we try doing things here we not only lack skills, we lack confidence in existing skills and we always howl that hi tech items are not ready after 25 or 35 years.

There are no easy choices. The Hawk is supposed to be "mature" technology that is actually beyond its peak. But we still have problems because it was designed and made in the UK for UK materials, workmanship and technology.

Apply the problems that we see here to what we are likely to see is we get the F-35, as some people suggest

This isn't the first time we are importin, license producing or servicing british aircraft. we are doing since pre-independence times, So why they couldn't anticipate effect of Indias conditions on Hawk or may be its pretty normal, could happen with any newly inducted aircraft.

There are 2 points in this news that really rankle my brain.

1) The shortage has arisen because of HAL’s inability to hand over 10-11 Hawks by December 2008 and 15 by March 2009, and also due to the non-availability of minor spares.

2) Though BAE Systems were aware of the tropical conditions the Hawks would operate in, neither they nor the IAF were able to anticipate problems associated with maintenance, workmanship and spares. The IAF has written numerous letters to BAE Systems and they have ensured that these issues will be sorted out. But our biggest worry is numbers.

20 years of wrangling and waiting for AJT and this is what India gets after spending $1.7bn. As usual Indian forces are left high and dry. No wonder we never seem to be able to go to war with Pakistan. Army is crying over Arjun, artillery, pay cheques, IAF does not have trainers , police is demoralized blah blah blah.

[NRao]

FYI. MiG-27 Upgrade, the Core Avionics Computer to be common among Jags and MKIs (From DTI, Feb 2009):

[shiv]

This isn't the first time we are importin, license producing or servicing british aircraft. we are doing since pre-independence times, So why they couldn't anticipate effect of Indias conditions on Hawk or may be its pretty normal, could happen with any newly inducted aircraft.

Because we are a useless nation of coding coolies whose engineering design and manufacture capability is 40 years behind the rest of the world? Anticipation requires memory and application of thought - and we do not have that for either import or internal production.

[p_saggu]

FYI. MiG-27 Upgrade, the Core Avionics Computer to be common among Jags and MKIs (From DTI, Feb 2009):

Is that a good thing? Mig-27 by the very nature of the job will be exposed to much higher attrition and that too in enemy territory. In the event this tech falls into paki hands, it'll go on to sweeter than honey phliend.
I don't want sweeter phliend to ever go through the software or the hardware architecture.

[Surya]

Thats such a defeatist move right off the bat.

what next - keep SU 30s behind our borders during war??

Then why upgrade at all??


besides after an aircraft tumbles out of the sky - it is not a pretty sight afterwards

[p_saggu]

Surya,
I need to rephrase that. Is there some way to ensure that important stuff on fighters is not available to the enemy should the aircraft crashland in hostile territory?
Perhaps if the pilot so desires, the important areas of the aircraft will destroy themselves if need be.

[SaiK]

self de-configuration and explode on remote trigger or on after pilot ejection, and on or just before crash landing keeping pilot at safe distance.

[p_saggu]

If anyone remembers the P3C orion incident where the aircraft had its tail clipped by a chinese fighter and was forced to land because of the damage, there were news reports that the crew carried out certain measures while the aircraft landed to prevent sensitive data / equipment falling into the hands of the chinese.
True to their sneaky form, the chinese proceeded to closely evaluate the aircraft in full view of the satellites.

[Mark Schwartzbard]

http://www.defensenews.com/osd_story.ph ... &i=3930325

Not sure if the Isrealies were playing like the russians offering free services, and after cut throat, or would it have saved Indian tax payer dollars?

[NRao]

Use a MiG-27 as an IDE.

[DominicG]

An interesting article regarding the recent P8-i sale to India:

India Balks at C-130, P-8 Restrictions
U.S. Resale and Other Limits Could Snag Future Sales
By ANTONIE BOESSENKOOL and vivek raghuvanshi
Published: 8 February 2009

WASHINGTON and NEW DELHI - Washington's restrictions on resale and other conditions could dampen New Delhi's interest in American defense goods, said officials, excutives, and observers in both countries.

As the world's aerospace industry converges on Bangalore for the biennial Aero India exhibition, Indian officials say they won't accept Washingon's standard conditions for U.S. arms customers, including that customers seek permission before reselling U.S. equipment.

"We're frustrated at both sides that this has been an issue for at least two-and-a-half or three years now and we haven't found a way to come to closure on it," said Jeffrey Kohler, Boeing vice president of international strategy for Integrated Defense Systems Business Development and the former head of the U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA).

The End Use Monitoring (EUM) provision "has been an issue all along," Kohler said. "We've sort of pushed it down the road while the two governments work on it. But we're reaching a very critical point now. Lockheed is reaching a critical point on the C-130. We [Boeing] now have a major contract that, obviously, we would like to see this issue resolved."

If no agreement is reached this year on EUM language, Kohler said, "There will be a serious blow to the relationship and, obviously, it would make it virtually impossible for U.S. defense companies to work with the Indians."

The annual value of U.S. arms sales to India is set to soar from tens of millions of dollars to billions this year. U.S. defense sales to India totaled $76.4 million in 2007, according to the U.S.-based Aerospace Industries Association. Then came 2008, in which New Delhi agreed to buy six Lockheed Martin C-130Js for $596 million, and last month, when the government agreed to buy eight Boeing P-8I maritime reconnaissance planes for $2.1 billion.

With Boeing and Lockheed competing for India's $10 billion fighter jet contract, and New Delhi's interest in ballistic missile defense systems, such as Patriot Advanced Capability-3 and the Aegis combat system, some believe the United States could be on track to become India's top weapon supplier, displacing Russia, which sold the country arms worth more than $2 billion last year.

But disagreements over post-sale limits could stop that from happening.

'Will Not Comply'?

Several Indian Defence Ministry officials said privately that New Delhi will not comply with EUMs and other export-control limitations that Washington requires of its weapon customers. They said the government has promised on several occasions not to share U.S. weapon technology with other countries. But they said India will not be told how and where to operate the equipment it buys for its own military.

Among the limitations they cited were the EUM, which would allow U.S. officials to block retransfers of the planes; the Communications and Information Security Memorandum of Agreement, which guides the sharing of sensitive information between two nations; and the Logistics Supply Agreement, which regulates things such as logistics support and fuel for fighter jets and naval warships.

Indian Defence Ministry spokes-man Sitanshu Kar said the two countries were discussing these issues, but he declined to elaborate.

Sources in both countries said India wants the United States to alter the EUM provisions.

Rick Kirkland, president for South Asia of Lockheed Martin Global, said the United States and India are discussing how to implement "a number of agreements," including EUMs, for U.S.-India trade in general.

"All of these agreements, of which End Use Monitoring is one of them, are going to need to be put in place and understood and accepted so we can get to the point where we're dealing in the same construct with India that we are with all the other countries that we do defense business with," Kirkland said. "I'm very confident these are all issues that are going to be resolved."

DSCA spokesman Charles Taylor said his agency has no plans to change EUM requirements or exempt any country.

But he said DSCA Director Vice Adm. Jeffrey Wieringa recently met with Indian officials to talk about India's defense acquisition strategies. He declined to say whether new guidelines on EUM provisions resulted.

India has shown in the past they "will sign contracts that have the End Use Monitoring terms and conditions contained," Taylor said.

However, one Indian Defence Ministry official said, U.S. and Indian officials modified the EUM in at least one other deal: the 2005 purchase of three Boeing business jets for the Indian Air Force squadron that ferries top dignitaries. A senior Indian Navy official said the agreement still contains the provision for physical annual verification by U.S. officials, but Washington has said the provision won't be implemented strictly unless concerns arise.

C-130s, P-8I

Sources said India has been reluctant to sign EUM provisions in the C-130J deal.

Sources in India and the United States said New Delhi either did not sign EUM provisions as part of the C-130J deal or agreed to terms that temporarily delay the signing of those conditions.

Lockheed's Kirkland said he doesn't know whether India agreed to the EUM conditions. He said Lockheed is not party to those provisions in the government-to-government deal. But he said New Delhi had signed the letter of offer and acceptance, the government-to-government agreement.

The DSCA's Taylor said that, to his knowledge, India has signed an EUM for the C-130Js as well as for the 2007 sale of the USS Trenton, an amphibious warship now called the INS Jalashwa.

"When they signed the [C-130J] agreement, they signed to accept the terms and conditions of everything contained, and contained in that are the terms for the End Use Monitoring," said Taylor, whose agency handles foreign military sales and notification to Congress of those sales.

Lockheed already has started building the C-130Js for India, with the first plane set for delivery in January 2011.

As for the P-8I deal, India has signed no EUM provisions, one Indian Defence Ministry source said. He said the Boeing aircraft won't arrive before the end of 2013, so the Indian government can buy time until then to sign the EUM provisions for the deal.

Boeing and the Indian government have agreed to the P-8I sale, but the deal is still undergoing the process of notification to Congress, according to Kohler.

Unlike the C-130J purchase, a foreign military sale handled through the DoD, the P-8I deal is a direct commercial sale in which the selling company obtains export licenses for the planes and the agreement between the company and the country contains retransfer or EUM provisions. The U.S. State Department regulates this type of sale but isn't a party to it.

Other Countries

Many European countries don't have end-user conditions as strict as the U.S. ones, but they do evaluate the risk that equipment might be sold to a third party. British officials were displeased in 2006 when India sold two Britten Norman maritime patrol aircraft to Myanmar, which is under a European Union arms embargo.

Britain complained to New Delhi and received a "one-finger salute," according to one defense exports specialist in the United Kingdom. The specialist said India might sell more equipment to Myanmar, perhaps surplus Britten Norman patrol aircraft, and there is little Britain can do about it.

Israel, which sells more arms to India than to any other country, tightened its defense export controls last year to require that the end user be clearly defined on all export licenses and contracts signed by authorized defense goods sellers in Israel. As with the U.S. system, the buyer in the deal must seek Israel's approval for resale of the product.

But there are no procedures to make sure that happens, an Israel Ministry of Defense official said.

"There's no way we conduct an investigation or inspection in customer countries," the official said. He said Israel is counting on the strengthened export procedures to forestall problems with retransferred exports, and there have been no violations so far.

Last year's U.S.-India civilian nuclear cooperation deal may strengthen defense ties, but India's ties with Iran, including security cooperation agreements, may make U.S. and Israeli officials wary.

Nevertheless, observers see U.S. firms and officials continuing their vigorous pursuit of Indian defense business.

"Ultimately, what the U.S. does will depend upon their national interests and international strategic aspirations," said Ravi Vohra, retired Indian Navy Rear Adm. and director of the New Delhi-based National Maritime Foundation. "India has placed several important orders with U.S. companies. Thus the window has opened and I do not think the American companies, having got a foothold in India after several years, would want their government to scuttle future chances."

Andrew Chuter in London and Barbara Opall-Rome in Tel Aviv contributed to this report.

[sum]

Britain complained to New Delhi and received a "one-finger salute," according to one defense exports specialist in the United Kingdom. The specialist said India might sell more equipment to Myanmar, perhaps surplus Britten Norman patrol aircraft, and there is little Britain can do about it.

Am having fun imagining a chai-biskoot holding MoD babu giving a "one finger salute" to British mandarins...

[narayana]

The End Use Monitoring (EUM) provision "has been an issue all along," Kohler said. "We've sort of pushed it down the road while the two governments work on it. But we're reaching a very critical point now. Lockheed is reaching a critical point on the C-130. We [Boeing] now have a major contract that, obviously, we would like to see this issue resolved."

If no agreement is reached this year on EUM language, Kohler said, "There will be a serious blow to the relationship and, obviously, it would make it virtually impossible for U.S. defense companies to work with the Indians."

Is this EUM india specific or they do it with every other country they sell,incl Japan,Britain and Israel,if those countries dont have any problem why should we have?.we never had the record of reverse engineering any Weapon System,why are we so Possesive in this regard?

[Nikhil T]

The End Use Monitoring (EUM) provision "has been an issue all along," Kohler said. "We've sort of pushed it down the road while the two governments work on it. But we're reaching a very critical point now. Lockheed is reaching a critical point on the C-130. We [Boeing] now have a major contract that, obviously, we would like to see this issue resolved."

If no agreement is reached this year on EUM language, Kohler said, "There will be a serious blow to the relationship and, obviously, it would make it virtually impossible for U.S. defense companies to work with the Indians."

Is this EUM india specific or they do it with every other country they sell,incl Japan,Britain and Israel,if those countries dont have any problem why should we have?.we never had the record of reverse engineering any Weapon System,why are we so Possesive in this regard?

Doesnt sound like the EUM is specific for a country.

DSCA spokesman Charles Taylor said his agency has no plans to change EUM requirements or exempt any country.

What they would probably do is to write the (India specific) EUM terms in individual contracts. This is what has been done in case of USS Trenton.

I am not suprised that Britain, Japan and Israel don't have issues with the EUMs because essentially they are client states of the US in military affairs. There is hardly a US op that Britain/Israel denounces and vice-versa.
I would be interested to see what issues countries like UAE, Kuwait and some European states have with the EUM.

IMHO, Annual Inspections and operational approval for specific ops is simply too much. That's like having an army on contract.

[K Mehta]

Shortage of Hawks hits pilots’ training

“Though BAE Systems were aware of the tropical conditions the Hawks would operate in, neither they nor the IAF were able to anticipate problems associated with maintenance, workmanship and spares. The IAF has written numerous letters to BAE Systems and they have ensured that these issues will be sorted out. But our biggest worry is numbers.”

Officials from HAL admit that the “delivery schedules have slipped by at least six months.”

And IAF has ordered extra LCA trainers.
Is this possible that the two have a link? that the order serves another purpose apart from keeping the lca assembly line busy?

[Nitesh]

wise words

IAF Chief pushes for regulation of aerospace industries

Bangalore (PTI): In order to cut "wasteful expenditure" and duplication of efforts, Chief of Air Staff F H Major on Monday sought creation of an apex body to coordinate and regulate aerospace industries.

India's economic upswing in the last two decades has resulted in substantial surge in aerospace industries in the country, the Air Chief Marshal said, adding "this is an encouraging sign".

However, as the aerospace industry is unregulated, "we run the risk of wasteful expenditure and duplication of efforts", the Air Chief Marshal said addressing a seminar conducted biennially along with Asia's biggest air show, Aero India 2009, which gets underway here on Wednesday.

"Therefore, there is a definite need for an effective apex agency to coordinate and regulate the activities of many organs that constitute our aerospace industry and to provide focus so that (there is) development of a coherent national aerospace capability", he said.

The Chief of Air Staff said India must identify core technologies to be developed, and aggressively design and manufacture them. Attempting to design and develop "every thing" is not cost-effective, he said.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 091521.htm

[NRao]

wise words

IAF Chief pushes for regulation of aerospace industries

Bangalore (PTI): In order to cut "wasteful expenditure" and duplication of efforts, Chief of Air Staff F H Major on Monday sought creation of an apex body to coordinate and regulate aerospace industries.

.................................

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 091521.htm

Strange. Dr. Valuri had proposed exactly the same thing is the 80s!!!!! And, no bode paid any attention.

[Rahul M]

And IAF has ordered extra LCA trainers.
Is this possible that the two have a link? that the order serves another purpose apart from keeping the lca assembly line busy?

KM, where has IAF ordered extra trainers ? the number quoted is just enough for the 5-6 sqdns envisaged.

[Vipul]

Thales awaits final nod on Mirage-2000 upgrade.

European aerospace major Thales is awaiting the IAF's final nod for upgrading its fleet of Mirage-2000 fighter bombers to enhance their strike capabilities and extend their operational life by at least 20 years.

"We have several significant priorities for India. In the short term the retrofit of the Mirage-2000 is clearly a strong request and we are working hard on it - Thales is leading this important programme along with its French and Indian industrial partners," Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, Thales' head of solutions for governments sector, told a news agency.

"In the mid-term, we are also strongly supporting the Rafale aircraft along with the Dassault and Snecma in the bid for India's MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) programme (for the 126 jets)," he added. Chaltiel is in India for the Aero India-2009 international air show at Bangalore, during which Thales will showcase its capabilities in the spheres of military aviation, civil aviation, aviation services and security, air traffic management and defence.

Pointing out that the technical and programme issues relating to the Mirage-2000 upgrade "have been discussed and agreed (to)", Chaltiel said: "We have put everything in place with all our Indian industrial partners, through the transfer of knowledge and technology, for the Indian industry to be in full capacity during the execution phases of the programme."

While Thales was reluctant to state figures due to a confidentiality clause, the project is believed to be worth $1.5 billion for upgrading the 51 Mirage-2000s in the IAF fleet to Dash-5 levels. This will give the jets multi-role capability with longer-range radars and fire-and-forget missiles, necessitating fewer aircraft to perform a given mission, thanks to greater fuel and weapon-delivery capacities.

The upgrade will involve providing the Mirage-2000, which was first inducted in mid-1980, a state-of-the-art fly-by-wire digital cockpit and an enhanced weapons-carrying capability. Under the Thales proposal, the company would deliver the first two aircraft from its facilities in France within 40 months of the signing of the contract, and would simultaneously assist Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in upgrading another two aircraft in India in the same time frame.Thereafter, HAL would upgrade one of the remaining 47 aircraft every month.

"The Mirage-2000 will be further enhanced by the integration of new capabilities," Chaltiel had said late last year. "These include longer range detection across the spectrum, improved tactical situation awareness, longer range weapon firing against multiple simultaneous targets, weapon stealth and extended operating envelope, with the capacity to engage ground targets while countering airborne threats," Chaltiel said.

"The resulting tactical advantage will allow commanders to commit fewer aircraft while achieving a higher success rate, thanks in particular to greater fuel and weapon-delivery capacities. For instance, a typical border protection mission involving two hours on station will require just two upgraded Mirage-2000 aircraft compared with the current six aircraft," Chaltiel said.

[sum]

WTF, We still haven't even signed the upgrade deal?

[krishnan]

They have, they need to make the aircrafts available

[ramana]

baljeet followingis whine but buried in it is the 1000kg bombs that you were mentioning in the Dhoni video!

more bad news, Vikek from defensenews.com reports that many deals have been cancelled this year and 1 billion USD may be returned.
Url

NEW DELHI - Despite efforts to speed up arms programs and finalize large purchases, the Indian Defence Ministry will return $1 billion that it was unable to use as planned in the fiscal year that ends March 31.

Ministry officials, fearing criticism from the military and political leaders, tried to speed procurement ahead of this year's general elections. In 2008, bids worth about $9 billion were floated, some of which resulted from cancellation of earlier bids. Most had been pending for two to three years due to delays.

"The process of acquisition had slowed down over the last three to four years," said S.V. Thapaliyal, a retired Indian Army major general. "Now there is a political compulsion to show results in view of forthcoming elections. Although a number of requests for proposals [RfPs] have been issued, the acquisition process is so slow and complicated that most of the acquisitions will only materialize in two to three years' time."

"Procurement of the required weapon systems is only a small part of the defense planning process - the whole process is flawed in execution," said Gurmeet Kanwal, retired Indian Army brigadier and director of the Centre for Land Warfare Studies, here. "Bureaucratic red tape must be eliminated through empowered committees, rather than according to a case-by-case approval on files that bounce back and forth endlessly. Prolonged trials are another chokepoint; a system of accountability should be instituted to ensure that trials are completed on time."

Other defense analysts said that the pile-up of RfPs began long ago.

"The cumulative pile is not just over the past three to four years, but goes back at least two decades," said independent defense analyst Rahul Bhonsle, a retired Indian Army brigadier. "The ideal acquisition schedule projects requirements at least 15 to 20 years in advance. That is the aim of having long-term integrated plans. But for the past few years, not having bought any weapons worth the name, the government is now rushing, driven by a post-Mumbai paranoia."

Swaran Singh, professor for diplomacy and disarmament at Jawaharlal Nehru University here, said the sudden big numbers of RfPs are due to a recent sharp surge of economic activity.

"Since the late 1990s, the Indian economy has had impressive growth rates, enabling the UPA government to prioritize weapon purchases, which appears like a sudden burst of RfPs floated in recent years," he said.

India plans to buy more than $30 billion in arms over the next five years to fight the low-intensity war in the northern state of Jammu and Kashmir, head off terror attacks in cities, and prepare for potential battle with Pakistan or China.

Program Status


In the near term, there is some hope for fast-track purchases of smaller items, including fast interceptor craft, hovercrafts and patrol boats for the Coast Guard. The government also will finalize major deals in the next two to three months, a senior Defence Ministry official said.

India expects within two to three months to sign its largest deal ever with Israel, a $3 billion-plus joint effort to develop a medium-range, surface-to-air missile, sources said.

The big-ticket bids floated in 2008 include $2 billion for 100 tracked howitzers, 48 ultra-light howitzers and 185 wheeled howitzers. The Army also sought to procure armored fighting vehicle protection and countermeasure systems worth $270 million, and floated a tender for the joint development of a laser-based directed infrared countermeasure system. The Army's quest for quick-reaction, surface-to-air missiles for $1.4 billion received a poor response; overseas vendors asked for requirements changes.

Other major tenders included a $2 billion bid from the Navy and Coast Guard for maritime patrol aircraft, a $750 million global bid to buy 197 reconnaissance and surveillance helicopters, and a $2 billion effort to upgrade Mirage fighters.

A $1 billion deal to replace the Russian-made Shilka air defense system has drawn no bidders, though Russia has offered licensed production of the Shilka system as a separate arrangement. India also may cancel a bid to procure 266 general guidance munitions in the 1,000-kilogram class compatible with Mirage-2000H/TH aircraft, because the Defence Research and Development Organization claims it can manufacture the munitions itself, Defence Ministry sources said.

The Defence Ministry canceled a bid to purchase a successor to the Swedish-made L-70 air defense guns because only the state-owned Ordnance Factories Board, in partnership with Rheinmetall Defense of Germany, had submitted the bid. The $1.2 billion contract to buy transportable radars is also heading for cancellation as Rafael was the only bidder.

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When you ask for unique one of a kind items you get single bid. Is the plan to intoriduce new logistics trail for the Air Defence? You cant get multiple bids all thise items ae no commodities like eggs or potatoes for army messes.

[ajay_ijn]

LCH prototype delayed till next year due to overweight problems

Visitors to Aero India 2009, to be held in Bangalore from February 11 to 15, who hoped to catch a first-ever glimpse of India’s high-tech Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), will return disappointed. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has told Business Standard that design glitches — including extra weight and delays in manufacturing the tooling on which the LCH will be fabricated — have pushed back the first flight by up to a year.

“An extra 250 kilos may not seem much on a 5.5-tonne helicopter, but it really is a serious problem,” explains HAL’s helicopter design chief N Seshadri. “At altitudes of 6,000 metres (almost 20,000 feet), which the LCH must operate at, the air is so thin that it can only carry a weapon payload of 350-500 kg. If the helicopter ends up 250 kg heavier than planned, its high-altitude firepower will be dramatically reduced,” he says.

Being built on the basic design of the Dhruv ALH, the LCH is currently HAL’s most prestigious project. Many of its components, including the engine, crucial moving parts like the rotor, and the instrumentation of the LCH, have already been tested on the Dhruv.

Armaments and the sensors are taking shape on the WSI-Dhruv. With much of this already done, HAL had planned to fly its first LCH prototype by December 8, 2008. A second prototype was to be readied in the first half of this year. But that timeline has turned out to be too ambitious.

Plexion Technologies, the private sector company that has designed the LCH’s fuselage, is working overtime to cut down the extra 250 kg. Meanwhile, HAL is trying to convince the air force to accept the first prototype with some extra weight so that flight tests can begin even as Plexion slims down the LCH.

There are some delays also in selecting the weapon systems that the LCH will carry. The air-to-air missile, which will be bought from abroad, has not been selected. The LCH was to be fitted with the DRDO’s Nag anti-tank missile, but the services want a missile that can hit tanks at seven km, compared with Nag’s four-km range. So, while the DRDO works on a longer-range version of the Nag (called the HELINA, or helicopter-mounted Nag), a foreign missile will have to be bought as an interim solution.

despite the delay, I am happy about one thing, a private company designing attack helicopter.
Plexion Technologies was acquired by Mahindra in 2005 and this same company was to develop n produce 4-seater aircraft with NAL.

[vivek_ahuja]

Another validation data point received. The LCH can indeed take as much payload as predicted on this thread...

“An extra 250 kilos may not seem much on a 5.5-tonne helicopter, but it really is a serious problem,” explains HAL’s helicopter design chief N Seshadri. “At altitudes of 6,000 metres (almost 20,000 feet), which the LCH must operate at, the air is so thin that it can only carry a weapon payload of 350-500 kg. If the helicopter ends up 250 kg heavier than planned, its high-altitude firepower will be dramatically reduced,” he says.

Cross posting from a previous page:

For mountain divs., IMHO the Army will be looking at the WSI Dhruv.

As far as I can tell, the LCH is being designed for supporting mountain divisions, with the WSI Dhruv acting in a secondary role.

In Astan. infact one of the very few Positives out of Operation Anaconda was the role of Apache. The High Altitude Capability of the Apache would do well to augment the Capability of our soon to be raised new Mountain Divisions. Also its fire power (Payload) would be equal to two LCHs.

Don't get carried away by news reports on Apache effectiveness. No doubt it was vital and all that, but these birds were operating under severe restrictions as far as performance was concerned. Pilots reported not having enough power for OGE Hover (though power existed for IGE Hover), which is vital in initiating any standoff attack maneuver in a helicopter. They were thus forced to conduct what amounted to racetrack patterns, flying overhead with guns blazing but with highly reduced weapons effectiveness. These racetrack patterns though effective against the Taliban forces, would prove suicidal against a first class enemy like the Chinese or Pakistanis given the low approach speeds.

Technically speaking, if the helicopter cannot hover OGE, and is forced to conduct racetrack pattern attacks on the enemy, then it is better off having a much faster ground attack aircraft do the job from relative safety and with munitions designed to be dispersed in that kind of attack like Napalm etc. They would have more accuracy, more chance of surviving and do more damage.

At this point I would like to remind everyone that under these conditions the LCH could easily hover in both IGE and OGE conditions.

However to give credit where it is due, the Apaches being used back then had 701-C engines. If they went ahead with the 701-D engines, the hover OGE capabilities of the LCH and the Apache add up to roughly the same (for same mission requirements). But that's hover OGE at service ceiling ROC. For combat ROC requirements on the battlefield above 17000 feet as required in the Himalayas, the Apache carry's no payload except gun ammunition for a maximum range of 100Km. By comparison, the LCH can carry around 300 Kg of weapons apart from the gun ammunition for the same range.

So my conclusion was that the Apache wasn't designed as a very high altitude bird like the LCH designed specifically for the job. In the plains however, the Apache is definitely better than the LCH given its heavy nature against the latter's light nature. But does that justify procuring a completely new helicopter at huge cost when more LCH can be procured for the same requirement?

-Vivek

[Philip]

AKA's moaning at the lack of pace and quality of indigenisation efforts (only 30%) on the eve of Aero-India are worth underlining for those who feel that the DRDO is a very efficient organisation.The latest issue of Flight,with a special feature on the Indian aviation industry(worth discussing in detail in the relevant threads) has the "U-turn" about the LCA regarding the "flight testing regime",where we first said that we would do it alone but are now looking for a partner,which could influence the MMRCA deal!

[K Mehta]

KM, where has IAF ordered extra trainers ? the number quoted is just enough for the 5-6 sqdns envisaged.

Yes but it is strange given that the engine for it hasnt been decided yet and the trainer hasnt yet taken flight. that 10 trainers have been ordered is a big amount, for just keeping the assembly lines running, IAF ordering more of an aircraft whose capabilities they dont even know, sounds really strange. There is more to it than meets the eye. They could have even asked to make more lsps, replacing the TD2 (check ajai shukla blog) and other PVs which have been made before the ASR change or with Ge-F404F2J3.

[Sanku]

AKA's moaning at the lack of pace and quality of indigenisation efforts (only 30%) on the eve of Aero-India are worth underlining for those who feel that the DRDO is a very efficient organisation.The latest issue of Flight,with a special feature on the Indian aviation industry(worth discussing in detail in the relevant threads) has the "U-turn" about the LCA regarding the "flight testing regime",where we first said that we would do it alone but are now looking for a partner,which could influence the MMRCA deal!

DRDO given its constraints is doing a great job; however this does not take away from the fact that as whole the home grown industry has just not kept pace with rest of growing India and its needs.

The serious lacunae can not be wished away by only blaming the armed forces or babu's --> there are issues every where which need fixing -- pronto --> just because DRDO was unfairly bashed in the media all the time it does not mean we on BRF swing to the other extreme.

[prasadha]

Dear Gurus

I watched a program in some channel in which they claimed modification of rotor blade-tips of Helicopters reduces the noise signature of the helicopter. If so, would such a modification be a value addition for Dhruv? Has it been tried already?

Thanks in advance

Prasad

[vavinash]

India already has vikhr ATGM. That should be enough as the interim solution till Helina comes online.