Indian Military Aviation

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Omar
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Omar » 17 Jun 2009 20:11

Sir, Its high time the Engines of jags to be replaced.! Hope the new Engines are equipped with FADEC. The older engines have vintage analog Engine control amplifier systems(ECAS) and its a nightmare to do an MRO due to obsolescence! By the way how are Honeywell Engines are faring compared to RR? Any idea?


Honeywell announces high performance F125IN aircraft engine to give Jaguar Fighter aircraft superior mission capability, improved pilot safety and reliability

Honeywell IAF Jaguar Re-Engine Competition video (from livefist)

You might also want to look through archived threads, but in short yes the engines will have FADEC and currently the Honeywell solution seems to be better if you go by their literature. :roll:

Omar
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Omar » 17 Jun 2009 22:10

Rolls Royce Defends Engine in Jaguar Competition

A pro from RR:
An earlier version of the Adour currently powers the Indian Jaguar fleet. The Adour Mk871 is also used on the Indian Hawk jet trainer offering a potential commonality gain.

Victor
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Victor » 17 Jun 2009 23:27

Div wrote:
sum wrote:Absolute circus our IAF is turning into...

Guess we now now have most countries planes represented in our fleet..maybe a few KJ-2000s and JF-17s will fill the remaining void!!!

No such thing as "Economies of scale" when it comes to the Indian armed forces.

If we don't make it ourselves, we need a diversified supplier base to be safe. The only economies of scale we enjoy will come from indigenous production. Today's Indian Armed Forces cannot afford economies of scale.

Andrew DeCristofaro
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 18 Jun 2009 01:33

Omar wrote:
Sir, Its high time the Engines of jags to be replaced.! Hope the new Engines are equipped with FADEC. The older engines have vintage analog Engine control amplifier systems(ECAS) and its a nightmare to do an MRO due to obsolescence! By the way how are Honeywell Engines are faring compared to RR? Any idea?


Honeywell announces high performance F125IN aircraft engine to give Jaguar Fighter aircraft superior mission capability, improved pilot safety and reliability

Honeywell IAF Jaguar Re-Engine Competition video (from livefist)

You might also want to look through archived threads, but in short yes the engines will have FADEC and currently the Honeywell solution seems to be better if you go by their literature. :roll:

don't know why nowdays americans pressing for their stuff for everything

RFP sent to raytheon for short range missiles and now this F125

as you all know americans don't like if someone else upgrading their fighters

rolls royce has produced engines for jaguars traditionally so only rolls royce be the only to supply engines for jaguar upgrade,

sole vender mirage2000 upgrade is france

and sole vendor for mig29 upgrade is russia but some electronics systems from different countries but all major systems coming from russia like rd33-3 engine,radar,MFD etc

western engines can also be fitted to mig29 but the contract always goes to its manufacturer

sunilUpa
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sunilUpa » 18 Jun 2009 06:02

Tampa company lands contracts for C-130 simulators

Tampa-based CAE USA and its Montreal-based aviation simulation parent company are bucking the trend at the Paris Air Show this week, where weak sales have topped the news.

CAE USA announced in Paris it has won contracts in recent weeks worth more than $100 million from prime contractor Lockheed Martin and an undisclosed customer to design and manufacture simulators for C-130s.

The C-130 is the worldwide mainstay among cargo and troop carrier aircraft, with some models modified for other operations.

The contracts include a C-130J simulator for the Indian Air force, an HC/MC-130J simulator for the U.S. Air Force Special Operations Command, a C-130J systems integration lab to be located at CAE USA in Tampa and a C-130H simulator from the undisclosed customer .

Omar
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Omar » 18 Jun 2009 06:04

rolls royce has produced engines for jaguars traditionally so only rolls royce be the only to supply engines for jaguar upgrade


I previously posted that the DARIN II upgrade of the jaguar utilized mix of indigneous and foreign avionics from sources other than BAe. This clearly indicates HAL retains the ability to modify and adapt the jaguar to a certain degree.

Kartik
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kartik » 18 Jun 2009 06:59

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:don't know why nowdays americans pressing for their stuff for everything

RFP sent to raytheon for short range missiles and now this F125

as you all know americans don't like if someone else upgrading their fighters

rolls royce has produced engines for jaguars traditionally so only rolls royce be the only to supply engines for jaguar upgrade,

sole vender mirage2000 upgrade is france

and sole vendor for mig29 upgrade is russia but some electronics systems from different countries but all major systems coming from russia like rd33-3 engine,radar,MFD etc

western engines can also be fitted to mig29 but the contract always goes to its manufacturer


what utter tosh ! the IAF or the GoI invites US companies by sending them the RFPs..and they are approached if they have a product that fits the needs. so how on earth can the US be held responsible for responding to these RFPs ? as for RR producing engines for the Jags and hence having sole rights to upgrade their engines, that is a matter of the contract that the IAF signed with BAe.

from what is publicly available, the F-125IN is a better solution for the refit, because of weight, CG and overall thrust improvements as compared to the RR solution. i'm assuming that the Adour Mk.871 does have a FADEC, so they may be tied in this regard. and anyway, since HAL is almost completely self-sufficient when it comes to manufacturing spares and parts for the Jaguar fleet, I doubt that any threats of OEM support being lost as a result of going with a Honeywell engine shouldn't make too big a difference to us. and anyway, Honeywell and RR have both demonstrated that their engines work, so now its upto the IAF to make its choice.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Sid » 18 Jun 2009 08:07

read on some other defense forum that F-125 which is also used Taiwanese IDF (indigenous defense Fighter) takes longer to reach its max output, meaning less acceleration. This was attributed to its origin, which was from commercial TFE731 engine which do not require such quick acceleration.

if that's the case, then statement from RR stands right "Fausset said that people get "seduced by thrust" but offering a lot of thrust is only of importance if it can be used by the aircraft." (link: http://www.defensenews.com/osd_story.php?i=3947008)

kit
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby kit » 18 Jun 2009 08:20

One cannot help but note !

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4445
Boeing: Additional Orders to Extend C-17 Production Line Into 2011

and

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4442
Indian Air Force Looks at Boeing C-17 Globemaster III to Replace Ilyushin IL-76

Mere coincide of course, unless the Indians have decided to subsidize the decrease in American procurements

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 18 Jun 2009 08:32

Sid wrote:read on some other defense forum that F-125 which is also used Taiwanese IDF (indigenous defense Fighter) takes longer to reach its max output, meaning less acceleration. This was attributed to its origin, which was from commercial TFE731 engine which do not require such quick acceleration.

if that's the case, then statement from RR stands right "Fausset said that people get "seduced by thrust" but offering a lot of thrust is only of importance if it can be used by the aircraft." (link: http://www.defensenews.com/osd_story.php?i=3947008)



Is it possible that the "IN" takes care of some of these issues?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Drevin » 18 Jun 2009 08:49

If we don't make it ourselves, we need a diversified supplier base to be safe. The only economies of scale we enjoy will come from indigenous production. Today's Indian Armed Forces cannot afford economies of scale.


Agree with Victor here. The only way to achieve economies of scale is to use
-indian-made products and
-indian maufacturd sub-components in all foreign products that MOD buys.

Div
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Div » 18 Jun 2009 09:12

Victor wrote:
Div wrote:No such thing as "Economies of scale" when it comes to the Indian armed forces.

If we don't make it ourselves, we need a diversified supplier base to be safe. The only economies of scale we enjoy will come from indigenous production. Today's Indian Armed Forces cannot afford economies of scale.


There is a fine line before you are over-diversifying...and that's a state, which could be much costlier in the long run. This equipment needs trained personnel, a sound doctrine defining use, maintenance processes, a supply chain, etc to function - the marginal cost of which tend to be favourable with numbers.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 18 Jun 2009 09:25

http://www.spyflight.co.uk/m-17%20mystic.htm

russia proposed $150m project to develop a ELINT version of the M-55.

if standoff strategic SAR/IMINT is the role, a revitalized M-55 fitted with the right equipment
sounds like a good plan - high ceiling 70kft vs fighters, good endurance via sailplane wings, maybe
make it single engine to save weight, simpler than a pure fighter to upkeep......a good fit for ARC?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby negi » 18 Jun 2009 09:34

^ Still into turbojets... perhaps they need to come up with a small TF engine which likes of honeywell manufacture to increase range for a given payload.

Singha
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 18 Jun 2009 09:41

I was not serious. working with israel on a unmanned turbofan powered high-alt version of Eitan with U2ish ceiling of 90kft and that su30 pod semi recessed on centerline is probably the doable and cheap option. a single Mirage2000 or M88 engine could be used...deeply shrouded and non-afterburning for stealth. endurance should be atleast 15-20 hrs.

such a thing could very well turn the tide in crucial battles with limited resources - as Ahuja sir always engages in

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby m mittal » 18 Jun 2009 10:11

If I remember correctly, IAF wanted to de-diversify its fleet.

But with the purchases like different tanker, different heavy lift aircraft and that too in limited numbers, it is no where even close to de-diversifying.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Gaurav_S » 18 Jun 2009 15:47


SivaVijay
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SivaVijay » 18 Jun 2009 15:55

The rate at which we are loosing Mig 21 at consistent intervals , I only hope we have enough left for the retirement function (i.e. if the 21 is retired :lol: :lol: , ofcourse Tejas would have taken over by then)

added later:

deleted
Last edited by SivaVijay on 19 Jun 2009 01:25, edited 1 time in total.

Akshut
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Akshut » 18 Jun 2009 16:26



GOD!! This is embarrassing.... :x

Omar
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Omar » 18 Jun 2009 18:23

Indian Air Force Looks at Boeing C-17 Globemaster III to Replace Ilyushin IL-76

Mere coincide of course, unless the Indians have decided to subsidize the decrease in American procurements


I think the C-17 Globemaster III can be a good deal for India if we can link its acquisition to other things such as development of an Indian P&W engine MRO facility thus allowing Indian airlines to overhaul some of their engines in India rather than having to go to Singapore or licensed production of components at an Indian subcontractor.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 18 Jun 2009 18:57

Omar wrote:
Indian Air Force Looks at Boeing C-17 Globemaster III to Replace Ilyushin IL-76

Mere coincide of course, unless the Indians have decided to subsidize the decrease in American procurements


I think the C-17 Globemaster III can be a good deal for India if we can link its acquisition to other things such as development of an Indian P&W engine MRO facility thus allowing Indian airlines to overhaul some of their engines in India rather than having to go to Singapore or licensed production of components at an Indian subcontractor.

india should buy c17 only if boeing is ready to open new 737 assembly line in india and give our people jobs like chinese have a320 assembly line

these reports are wrong that india want to replace il76 with c17,c17 will compliment il76

but the thing is IAF needs more tankers rather than heavy lift aircrafts

Vivek K
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Vivek K » 18 Jun 2009 19:01

Akshut wrote:


GOD!! This is embarrassing.... :x


Why is it embarrassing?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Shameek » 18 Jun 2009 19:05

SivaVijay wrote:The rate at which we are loosing Mig 21 at consistent intervals , I only hope we have enough left for the retirement function (i.e. if the 21 is retired :lol: :lol: , ofcourse Tejas would have taken over by then)

added later:

I crossed 50 posts :-o :) :D :lol: :rotfl:


What are you happy about? Your prediction about losing all MiG 21's or you crossing 50 posts (whatever that means)? If we at BRF find it funny then we might as well join the famed DDM.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 18 Jun 2009 19:12

Omar wrote:
Indian Air Force Looks at Boeing C-17 Globemaster III to Replace Ilyushin IL-76

Mere coincide of course, unless the Indians have decided to subsidize the decrease in American procurements


I think the C-17 Globemaster III can be a good deal for India if we can link its acquisition to other things such as development of an Indian P&W engine MRO facility thus allowing Indian airlines to overhaul some of their engines in India rather than having to go to Singapore or licensed production of components at an Indian subcontractor.


Boeing is already setting up a MRO in India. That is not an issue.

But, the (PTI) good news is that the IAF is replacing the IL-76s. They still have to go through a few more hoops inside India, but, when all said and done IAF could have between 10 and 20 of these puppies.

Omar
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Omar » 18 Jun 2009 19:32

So does that mean Boeing MRO can overhaul PW engines? I guess before the Boeing MRO started, P&W engines had to be overhauled in Singapore. Anyways, it seems like P&W could establish another successful MRO business with current population of aircraft flying with their engines and this deal, if the IAF follows through with an order of 20 Globemasters.

Pratt and Whitney is also exploring a maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) facility for servicing the more than 600 of its engines used by planes in India, as well as those of rival aero-engine makers such as General Electric Co., Rolls Royce Plc. and Safran Group.
“We have seen our MRO business growing at 15% every year and we are willing to invest in India. We need at least 100 engines a year for successful MRO,” James Keenan, a senior vice-president with the company, said.


Link: http://www.livemint.com/2008/04/0723314 ... es-ma.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby AmitR » 18 Jun 2009 20:41

Black Box of AN-32 aircraft recovered
http://www.zeenews.com/news540295.html

Hope not posted already

Kartik
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kartik » 18 Jun 2009 20:57

SivaVijay wrote:The rate at which we are loosing Mig 21 at consistent intervals , I only hope we have enough left for the retirement function (i.e. if the 21 is retired :lol: :lol: , ofcourse Tejas would have taken over by then)

added later:

I crossed 50 posts :-o :) :D :lol: :rotfl:


the most tasteless post you could come up with..I suggest you hang around on BRF a while before coming and writing any garbage you feel like writing..50 posts of this type are worth zilch.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 18 Jun 2009 20:58

I wonder if the C-17 could be converted into a maritime strike missile truck?

ya ya I know its strange idea, but I have a spider feel two rotary bomb racks
in fuselage each holding 5 rounds of brahmos-A would put the fear of Kali in any
maritime threats from our northern brothers.

HariC
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby HariC » 18 Jun 2009 21:12

Singha wrote:I wonder if the C-17 could be converted into a maritime strike missile truck?

ya ya I know its strange idea, but I have a spider feel two rotary bomb racks
in fuselage each holding 5 rounds of brahmos-A would put the fear of Kali in any
maritime threats from our northern brothers.


With due respect - it is an idiotic suggestion. You are better off using the P8 or even the older Tu-142


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