Indian Military Aviation

[Mihir]

What is this in IAF colors? From Paris Air show 2009.
source - militaryphotos.net posted by Xav

Its the An-74MP

http://www.antonov.com/news/index.xml?n ... 090209.xml

[arun]

X Posted.

UK’s Times touts the Euro Fighter and the F/A 18 Super Hornet as the favourites to win the MMRCA deal:

From The Sunday Times

June 21, 2009

Eurofighter guns for £10bn Indian deal

BAE Systems is preparing for a dogfight that could result in it landing an order for 130 modern fighter jets for India ..................................

Times

[Andrew DeCristofaro]

talking of c17 but there are also several c5 galaxies in reserve and 6 galaxies do the work of 10 c17 and those c5 would be much cheaper than new c17

The C-5 would be a horrible idea for India. The US is far better equipped to handle maintenance on them with a large fleet, plentiful spares and decades of experience. But even they can't keep the things in the air. They have absolutely atrocious MC rates and are very expensive to keep flying.

The C-17 is the 'golden child' of the AMC because it is reliable and dependable, in other words, everything the C-5 is not.

If you send a C-5, you have no idea when or even if it will arrive, and once it does arrive, you can't get it to leave.

There is an effort to address some of these problems (the C-5M program), but it's per plane cost is a substantial fraction of a new C-17 so there is considerable controversy as to whether it is worth it.

Not to mention that the 'reserve' C-5s are C-5A models which are far worse from a quality standpoint. And those C-5As were retired because they were 'bad actors'.

So to get the ones in reserve would be to get the worst planes (bad actors) of the worst model (C-5A) of a horribly unreliable plane to begin with (C-5).

I'm not sure what the right answer is for India's transport fleet, but I am sure that the C-5 is the wrong answer.

US not going to retire their c5 till 2040 and if c5 is not right answer then c17 also not worth of its price and capability its provides over upgraded il76.

as far as quality standpoint it depends of how many hours aircraft has been used and being old aircraft it will be significantly cheaper than new c17 but if India could get 6 refurbished c5 and operate them for next 20 years and this provides much better solution than c17

India bought USS trenton with helicopters in reserve and those helicopters were refurbished and then delivered to India and if those helicopters can work for next 15 years then surely those refurbished c5 in reserve can also do the same.

and i hope that Mr obama can do it for india in the false name of war on terror,amen

[Kakarat]

I think the argument is pointless and the Air Force knows what it wants and what it should buy.

will any of us buy a van (cargo) instead of a car if it is available at a lower cost?

[NRao]

The discussion is pointless because the supporting arguments are lame and at times totally childish.

[GeorgeWelch]

if those helicopters can work for next 15 years then surely those refurbished c5 in reserve can also do the same.

You don't understand how bad those retired C-5s are.

[Surya]

george - don't waste your time. its pointless

[Andrew DeCristofaro]

I think the argument is pointless and the Air Force knows what it wants and what it should buy.

will any of us buy a van (cargo) instead of a car if it is available at a lower cost?

but what if you have big family and you can buy a used van instead of new car.
and c17 doesn't come cheaper than old c5

[NRao]

Andrew,

There is no "what if" here.

The IAF has selected the C-17.

So, why even discuss a situation that does not exist? A C-5 is nowhere close to any relevance here.

There are other forums that offer castle-in-the-air discussions. They do not mind thread dilution. Each nation seems to have their own BR, one such exists across the border.

[sunilUpa]

Andrew,

There is no "what if" here.

The IAF has selected the C-17.

So, why even discuss a situation that does not exist? A C-5 is nowhere close to any relevance here.

There are other forums that offer castle-in-the-air discussions. They do not mind thread dilution. Each nation seems to have their own BR, one such exists across the border.

Plenty to choose from here


I bet that it won't cost any where near as much as Gorshkov

[p_saggu]

^^^
The aircraft graveyard at Tucson, Arizona! What a sight!!!

[Andrew DeCristofaro]

Andrew,

There is no "what if" here.

The IAF has selected the C-17.

So, why even discuss a situation that does not exist? A C-5 is nowhere close to any relevance here.

There are other forums that offer castle-in-the-air discussions. They do not mind thread dilution. Each nation seems to have their own BR, one such exists across the border.

Plenty to choose from here


I bet that it won't cost any where near as much as Gorshkov

ya you are right,but let me remind you also our great nation is ready to pay 1.3 billion per P17A frigate and gorshkov costing less than 2 billion

[Andrew DeCristofaro]

197 helicopters ---eurocopter
combat helicopters---- russia
heavy lift helicopter--- US

HAL wanted a foreign partner to develop heavy lift helicopter,russians have plan to develop mi46 so it would be better than procuring something off the shelf.

if MRTA can be developed in in 600 million then mi46 surely be developed in 200million and produce those mi46 in india

or it would be better to become partner in ch53k in development which will provide 16 ton capability and produce them in india.

i am saying this because italy recently bought chinooks which cost them 75 million per helicopter despite italy already has infrastructure base,trained personnel for chinooks.

also for combat helicopters s.korea bought 24 ex US army apaches for 800 million so new ones must be costlier than 800 million

[NRao]

Andrew,

Seriously, nothing against the Russians, what have they inducted in the past 10 years?

Any partnership with Russia will go nowhere. They lost their R&D edge when a drunk Russian President spent it all on booze. IMHO, they are facing the fruits of the lack of funding over the years. They had the brains.

[Andrew DeCristofaro]

Andrew,

Seriously, nothing against the Russians, what have they inducted in the past 10 years?

Any partnership with Russia will go nowhere. They lost their R&D edge when a drunk Russian President spent it all on booze. IMHO, they are facing the fruits of the lack of funding over the years. They had the brains.

you are racist and also shows being paid by US,and specify particular area of R&D where russians lack edge.

funding comes only from exports this is the truth about JSF,
737 AEW,P8,typhoon,rafale,ch148,f16blk60

why are you worried whether russians inducted anything or not so its their problem.

[putnanja]

also shows being paid by US,

not fair, I want some too and I have been on the board for years now

[Vinito]

P8 can carry all of 4 harpoons I think. there is no way it can carry brahmos.

Tu142 allegedly needs around 30 hrs of downtime for 1 hr in the air. its a evolutionary dead end hence the P8.

among active planes the B1, B2, B52 and Tu160 have the internal bomb bays for
long and heavy weapons.

That reminds me! Some reports had surfaced at the end of last year about India being in talks with Russia to buy the Tu-160 blackjacks. There haven't been reports of any progress if at all any talks had taken place.
I really doubt it considering the very slow production of Blackjacks, but, is there any clause in NPT which doesn't allow export of Strategic Bombers ??

Why is India not looking at the British Nimrod MK.3 or is it not that capable compared to the P-8 when it comes to maritime reconnaisance in terms of price or capabilities. I read a book where it was mentioned that the British government was pitching the Nimrod against the IL-38 in the 70's / 80's. Is it that they are not comofortable selling it to India now?

[dipayan]

Raytheon's Munitions Control Unit to be Integrated on Jaguar Aircraft

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4460

This article says "Once MCU is integrated on an aircraft, aircrews can employ the Joint Standoff Weapon, Maverick missile, Paveway precision-guided munition and AIM-9M Sidewinder air-to-air missile using the aircraft's existing weapon management system"

I know we use the Paveway, but what about the others?? Are we planning to buy them or is this Unit compatible with other weapons???

[naird]

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4460

When did we ever sign this deal ? Did anyone else know about this ?

[Kartik]

you are racist and also shows being paid by US,and specify particular area of R&D where russians lack edge.

Andrew, I doubt that you've ever even interacted with any Russians..I have a boss who's from Russia and she herself says that the Russian Slavs were very racist, and they looked down upon anyone in the erstwhile USSR who was not Russian..that includes Lithuanians, Ukranians, Latvians, Jews, etc..in fact a couple of my Ukranian class mates in college pretty much despised Russians and narrated tales of how their parents were discriminated against by the Russians, basically being treated as second-class citizens of the USSR.

[Kartik]

Why is India not looking at the British Nimrod MK.3 or is it not that capable compared to the P-8 when it comes to maritime reconnaisance in terms of price or capabilities. I read a book where it was mentioned that the British government was pitching the Nimrod against the IL-38 in the 70's / 80's. Is it that they are not comofortable selling it to India now?

an ancient platform, that has serious drawbacks. discounting the sensor fit, the platform is very old and will be very hard to support, out to 2030-2040. I doubt any new ones can be even procured.

[AmitR]

Raytheon's Munitions Control Unit to be Integrated on Jaguar Aircraft

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4460

This article says "Once MCU is integrated on an aircraft, aircrews can employ the Joint Standoff Weapon, Maverick missile, Paveway precision-guided munition and AIM-9M Sidewinder air-to-air missile using the aircraft's existing weapon management system"

I know we use the Paveway, but what about the others?? Are we planning to buy them or is this Unit compatible with other weapons???

I am really surprised with this news, it almost came out of nowhere or maybe I did not read news properly.
It is clear now that Americans have started to turn on the taps.

[Prem Kumar]

It was reported last week in Rediff and Chindu

[Vinito]

Why is India not looking at the British Nimrod MK.3 or is it not that capable compared to the P-8 when it comes to maritime reconnaisance in terms of price or capabilities. I read a book where it was mentioned that the British government was pitching the Nimrod against the IL-38 in the 70's / 80's. Is it that they are not comofortable selling it to India now?

an ancient platform, that has serious drawbacks. discounting the sensor fit, the platform is very old and will be very hard to support, out to 2030-2040. I doubt any new ones can be even procured.

The last time I read in JDW the British are funding the MK.3 version...guess its that or they move onto the P-8 as well

[Vinito]

if those helicopters can work for next 15 years then surely those refurbished c5 in reserve can also do the same.

You don't understand how bad those retired C-5s are.

If we need to go in for some heavy lifting why not opt for the An-124 Ruslan then...it can definitely much more cheap than the C-5

[Jamal K. Malik]

Andrew,

Seriously, nothing against the Russians, what have they inducted in the past 10 years?

Any partnership with Russia will go nowhere. They lost their R&D edge when a drunk Russian President spent it all on booze. IMHO, they are facing the fruits of the lack of funding over the years. They had the brains.

Then give them money and use them/their brain. As we are using them in many projects.Are they boozing from our money? No

[sanjaychoudhry]

IAF set to start trials to select combat jet
http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/a ... rent_id=22

Eurofighter guns for £10bn Indian deal
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 544370.ece

[Sontu]

Raytheon's Munitions Control Unit to be Integrated on Jaguar Aircraft

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4460

This article says "Once MCU is integrated on an aircraft, aircrews can employ the Joint Standoff Weapon, Maverick missile, Paveway precision-guided munition and AIM-9M Sidewinder air-to-air missile using the aircraft's existing weapon management system"

I know we use the Paveway, but what about the others?? Are we planning to buy them or is this Unit compatible with other weapons???

I am really surprised with this news, it almost came out of nowhere or maybe I did not read news properly.
It is clear now that Americans have started to turn on the taps.

I think US does not have a single Jaguar strike aircraft..then why suddenly Raytheon spending/investing on MCU integration on Jaguars.

That means ..this effort too have my earlier stated objective of upgrading Indian Jaguars very very soon..so that these Jags can take part on NUTRALISING PAK NUKES TOGETHR WITH MRCAs. while using precision guided A-S munitions .

Very very surprising move by US and start of a change of policy towards PAK.

One fine day 150 Jags + 150 MRCA stikers will be in air together for a single massive blow to destroy Pak Nukes in one single mission/shot (may be a mission of 2hrs ) ..also US strikers too will participate in that mission while taking off from Afgan Airbases and Aircraft Carriers from Gulf and Arabian sea.

Any way risks for US is nill as even if PAK retaliates (with left over nukes)...it will nuke Indian cities.
AMRIKHANS will be happy any way ...One shot taken two birds hit. Pak Nukes are nutralised and Indian economy back to stone age .

[Singha]

but why would the honeywell engine be needed if we magically agreed to risk it all on a single strike ? the RR engines will do just ok in the plains of punjab and sindh.

[viveks]

i think the EF2k would loose out on the engine front. The rafale's engines look pretty powerful. The EF's engines appear very similar to the LCA's GE404 where people complain of lack of appropriate thrust.

[Sontu]

but why would the honeywell engine be needed if we magically agreed to risk it all on a single strike ? the RR engines will do just ok in the plains of punjab and sindh.

Jags are any way due for MLU update I believe and that upgrade will include engines as well.

I think Jags need more powerful engine for following two reasons..

1. To increase the combat load while maintaining a Mach 1.1 speed in low level strike mission.
2. More power for newer radars if installed.

[Gerard]

Andrew DeCristofaro has been warned for repeated trolling in various threads.
This is his third warning so he is banned for a month.

[Lalmohan]

but why would the honeywell engine be needed if we magically agreed to risk it all on a single strike ? the RR engines will do just ok in the plains of punjab and sindh.

Jags are any way due for MLU update I believe and that upgrade will include engines as well.

I think Jags need more powerful engine for following two reasons..

1. To increase the combat load while maintaining a Mach 1.1 speed in low level strike mission.
2. More power for newer radars if installed.

with external load (the only kind for a jag) the drag will be too high to maintain any kind of speed close to M=1, never mind M>1, and that too at low level. only Tornado and F111 and Su24's were designed for anything approaching a high load high speed ingress, and then I don't think (but happy to be corrected) they could do M > 1 at low level with load

for radar power, the engine will not be the determining step, and as far as i know, jag's will rely on inertial nav and not terrain mapping radar for penetration. which gives out the aircraft's location very easily ofcourse

[NRao]

Andrew,

Seriously, nothing against the Russians, what have they inducted in the past 10 years?

Any partnership with Russia will go nowhere. They lost their R&D edge when a drunk Russian President spent it all on booze. IMHO, they are facing the fruits of the lack of funding over the years. They had the brains.

Then give them money and use them/their brain. As we are using them in many projects.Are they boozing from our money? No

Note: I said "They had the brains. Past tense.

As compared to India perhaps they still are way ahead in most, if not all, areas.

But I very much doubt they can be compared to even Europe any more.

Like I said, nothing against the Russians, but RoI is too low. IMHO of course.

Let us see where the PAK-FA and therefore the FGFA goes. I for one do not expect too much out of it. Or, even if India gets a framework out of it India could be fairly satisfied.

[Kartik]

i think the EF2k would loose out on the engine front. The rafale's engines look pretty powerful. The EF's engines appear very similar to the LCA's GE404 where people complain of lack of appropriate thrust.

the EJ200 is rated to 90kN with afterburner, whereas the Snecma M-88-2 is only rated to 75 kN with afterburner..so how is the EF's engine similar to the GE F-404 and how do the Rafale's engines "look pretty powerful" ?

[Sontu]

with external load (the only kind for a jag) the drag will be too high to maintain any kind of speed close to M=1, never mind M>1, and that too at low level. only Tornado and F111 and Su24's were designed for anything approaching a high load high speed ingress, and then I don't think (but happy to be corrected) they could do M > 1 at low level with load

for radar power, the engine will not be the determining step, and as far as i know, jag's will rely on inertial nav and not terrain mapping radar for penetration. which gives out the aircraft's location very easily ofcourse

Lalmohan ji
Following link says Jags can achieve a Mach1.1 speed at sea level though (Not sure if this is with clean or loaded config).
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/attack/jaguar/

also I feel that in the near future the Jag IS versions should also be equipped with EL/M-2032 like IMs.
which will give them a bit of eye in the sky as well good all around view for their own survivability.

[Lalmohan]

sontu

1.1 is for clean config, any more and the aerodynamics are different - look at the airframes i mentioned

the radar is meant for naval strike targetting. in air-air mode any jaguar advertising its presence to hostile fighters is asking to get shot down, it is just not built for air-air engagements. avoidance yes, engagement no

[Raja Bose]

B-R quoted on Rediff...not that it is anything new Hope the photo credits are correct.

Helicopters are key for the IAF

[Sontu]

sontu
the radar is meant for naval strike targetting. in air-air mode any jaguar advertising its presence to hostile fighters is asking to get shot down, it is just not built for air-air engagements. avoidance yes, engagement no

Lalmohan ji,
The above scenario were true until presence of AEW aircrafts together with look-down/shoot down interceptor aircrafts made to the air forces of the world i.e. in those days (until 80’s) Jags could possibly successfully do a deep penetration strike job without much risk of being detected (by ground based radars and targeted by SA guns/missiles. as these SA systems used to get less than 1 minute to track and fire) a sceenario prior till 80's when Jag were conceived and inducted in great numbers.

Now that air battle scenario is changed totally. I mean with Pak/China having AEW planes in air 24/7, supported by advanced fighters (with look down /shoot down capabilities ) and the their AAM can do their job up to 150-200 feet above the ground. So when ever a Jag team tries to penetrate the opponent's air space even at low level still will be picked up by AEW planes like Saab Erieye or KJ-2000/KJ-200 or Y-8s (These will not need a radar signal advertise by it's own, as it's metal body will do that ...and Jags are not stealth strikers, so THAY will be picked up and will be shoot down in first attempt only) and with the help of F-16 or Jf-17 or J-10 or even Russian Su-27/30 variants would be able to track and shoot the Jag team. That means in order to Jags be able to do a real deep penetration strike, it will always need a Su-30 MkI or Mig-29 in equal number accompanying them to protect each of them as long as these Jags are air borne in enemy airspace.

Hence I feel they need a radar (may be a good quality LPI frequency hopping one ), so as to be able see the air space and at least plan their route if not taking on the enemy fighters...I am talking about mission success in today's scenario and survivability.

Regards,

[Lalmohan]

Sontu

the jags will be flying at 50-150' at 400-450 kts, and will be in heavy ground clutter, plus they carry jammer pods. the enemy awacs may not see too much of him (note Cope Thunder in Alaska where Jags were able to penetrate the defences very well, and previous Red Flags where the older RAF Jags usually penetrated well) or get a good fix on him.

at that height and speed, the jag pilot will have his hands very seriously full in following the DARIN II's cues to get to the target. Any air-air radar in the nose will be pointing ahead in a cone and picking up a lot of interesting ground clutter and not much of the Su27's being vectored onto him by the A50 from behind. that warning will come from the Tarang unit in the tail and wings once he is being painted by the enemy radar. even if the jag radar could see all around, the pilot is not going to have time to study it - he will be more concerned about clearning the telegraph pole on the ridge in front and getting below the horizon

if he switches a radar on, the EW waves will be quickly picked up by ELINT capabilities in the enemy awacs or interceptors and there will be a stronger fix on him

ideally, a datalink from our AWACS will tell him that there are bogeys at his x o'clock high, frankly thats all he needs to get out of harms way, plus any other cues the fighter controller on our awacs might have for him. not sure if we have this latter functionality as yet