Indian Military Aviation

[Singha]

The Hindu:

HAL looking for global partner to design trainer aircraft

Ravi Sharma

The trainer will be named Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40

It will replace the HAL-designed Hindustan Piston Trainer-32

BANGALORE: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has decided to rope in an international partner for the design and development of the much needed ab initio turbo trainer for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Navy.

The public sector aerospace company has sent out a request for information (RFI) to a number of companies that have designed and manufactured basic turbo trainers, including Embraer (for their Tucano), Pilatus (PC-21), Raytheon (T-6 Texan), Finmeccanica (M-311), Grob Aircraft Company (G-120TP) and Korea Aerospace Industries (KT-1).

The RFI is for 200 aircraft, with HAL being the sole worldwide manufacturer. The trainer, which will be named Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (HTT-40), will replace the HAL-designed Hindustan Piston Trainer-32 (HPT-32) Deepak, an aircraft which has been used by the IAF and, in smaller numbers, the Navy for their primary pilot training since 1984. But the reliability of the HPT-32 has always been in question.

The basic piston-driven aircraft has faced a number of technical issues, including a sudden switching off of the engine in mid air. Since its induction, the HPT-32 has had over 70 incidents.

HAL’s efforts to make modifications have been thwarted by a design mismatch between the HAL-designed airframe and the trainer’s Lycoming AEO piston engine. After a series of accidents a few years ago, a worried IAF almost declared the aircraft “too dangerous to fly solo.”

The IAF is hopeful that HAL will come out with a replacement for the HPT-32 by 2013-14 and has indicated its qualitative requirements: a trainer with good spin characteristics, a reliable turboprop engine, an ejection seat, a glass cockpit, a retractable undercarriage, modern navigational equipment and global positioning system. The IAF would also like an interchanging of the trainer’s cockpit layout with the instructor seated on the left and the trainee pilot on the right.

Justifying the decision to rope in a partner, a senior HAL official explained that it could take four to five years if they were to develop a trainer on their own. “Roping in an established partner who has already designed a trainer of this sort will not only mean compressing timelines, but also offering the IAF a top-of-the-line product incorporating most of what the IAF wants. The RFI is the first cut in the process of finding a partner. We hope to finalise the trainer’s specs and our partner by March 2010.”

He said a collaborative effort would also allow HAL to use the global marketing reach and technical reputation of their partner to sell a HAL-designed product in the world market.

This would give HAL a footprint in the competitive global aviation market, something that the company was presently finding difficult to achieve.

[krishnan]

Justifying the decision to rope in a partner, a senior HAL official explained that it could take four to five years

It doesnt matter, anyway its going to take 4-5 years to finish this RFI,RFP,RF for this and RF for that, they very well could have gone by their own

[Rahul M]

The army’s Advanced Light Helicopter, Dhruv, flies up to a maximum height of 5,000m. The requirement was that it should fly up to at least 6,500m to service soldiers posted in high altitudes such as in the Siachen Glacier and in Arunachal Pradesh.

Dhurv fails

If this is true, then one should be wary of accepting any system which is 'nearly ready'.

If this is true, then one should be wary of accepting any system which is 'nearly ready'.

this was true, this statement became irrelevant about a year ago. I guess any system needs some time to punch according to its full weight. numerous media reports have been put up over the last few days. see vikram_s' posts for example.
CAG however is still stuck in early 2007 in terms of awareness !

RayC
Didn't expect that comment from you. Here is my gripe, we know the issue is the engine. We are dependent on phoren manufacturers for it. What was CAG doing--sleeping on wheel all the time this deal was getting negotiated. Does any of these Auditors know the difference between air density at 5000 m and 6500 m. Hell even USA that has the most advanced helos on record is having one hell of a time at 5500 m.
I am with IA on that.

Good grief, can't even defend this nation for free without getting crucified by every A&& hole coming out of woodwork.

Baljeet and Rahul M,

What is the operational employment visualised of the Dhruv?

And what altitude it was expected to be operational for?

Just curious!

The Army's own webpage states that its operational altitude is 5900 m. Where does issues with at 5000m come from?

The Army's own webpage states that its operational altitude is 5900 m. Where does issues with at 5000m come from?

As per the report, it achieved a max altitude of 5000m.

Could you give the link to this Army webpage? I can't locate it.

As per the report, it achieved a max altitude of 5000m.

Could you give the link to this Army webpage? I can't locate it.

RayC sir ... here is a link on dhruv from IA.... I think Tanaji is talking about this.
http://indianarmy.nic.in/arms/index_aa.htm

RayC sir ... here is a link on dhruv from IA.... I think Tanaji is talking about this.
http://indianarmy.nic.in/arms/index_aa.htm

Thanks.

Interesting comment thus:

While the advantages in hot-and-high performance parameters and altitude limitations were obvious when compared to the HAL Cheetah, the Army wanted more out of the TM333-2B2 engine.

ray sir, as I said vikram_s' posts had the relevant articles.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/09/ ... -of-3.html

As the shuddering helicopter bears down on the tiny helipad atop a needle of ice at 20,997 feet(= 6400 meters), the rotor blades struggle to extract lift from the rarefied air. This is the ultimate test for helicopters. But the army’s new Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) has proved that it can land at Sonam, bringing in much larger payloads than the Cheetah helicopters that have laboriously sustained the jawans in Sonam for the last two decades.

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20070220_alh_dhruv.htm

ALH Dhruv clears high-altitude tests, will join Siachen fleetnews
20 February 2007


Udhampur: India's advanced light helicopter (ALH) Dhruv has successfully cleared all test trials for regular high-altitude operations, especially in the Siachen glacier area of Jammu and Kashmir. The Dhruv was first inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 1998.

According to IAF sources, Dhruv cleared "all test trials" for flying over the Siachen glacier without "any error," and will now join the fleet of Chetak and Cheetah helicopters, which make daily trips to the area providing support services for troops based there.

With the clearance, the Dhruv has been validated for high-altitude, low temperature flying, which is essential for the maintenance of supply lines to the region.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore, manufactured chopper underwent a six-month long trial period with the Chandigarh-based Dhruv squadron, and flew under different weather conditions.

also :
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Citi ... 437840.cms

Bangalore ALH pilots fly high
Prashanth G N, TNN 8 October 2007, 01:31am IST


Three of its pilots were the first to take the ALH to heights higher than Manasbal, which was also the first time an Indian helicopter was taken to that height.

C D Upadhyay, Unni Pillai and M U Khan flew the ALH at an incredible altitude of 27,500 feet (= 8382 meters ! MIght I mention that this is the ONLY helicopter in the world with such high altitude performance ?! ) in the Siachen area braving icy winds.

Upadhyay describes that flight: "We started climbing stage by stage... 20,000 feet, 23, 24, 25, 26 and then 27,500. It had never been done before. We were hovering and watching a Cheetal (another helicopter) land just below us at 25,100 feet. Landing at that height isn’t easy. We were ready to pick up the pilot if something went wrong.

"Naturally, we had to be at a higher altitude. It was cold and we were wrapped in woollens. There wasn't a single rattle at 27,500 ft... We'd worked out if the Cheetal {cheetal is a cheetah with the more powerful TM3332B2, same engine as used in the initial version of the Dhruv}could make 25,000 feet, the ALH could do more. We hadn't tried it on the Siachen Glacier. We succeeded."

Upadhyay and his co-pilots tried out the copter at that height above the Leh runway and the hills before taking on the glacier.

Minutes before the flight, Upadhyay said: "We checked the engine, then the software. It was fine. We were confident the copter would perform 100 per cent. Then we checked on the oxygen. At 27,000 feet, you need pressurised oxygen and a continuous supply. We ensured that. We did all the checks. We just took-off. The ALH was a beauty."

Upadhyay and his co-pilots were the first to put the ALH through the glacier. They flew it in extreme cold conditions. They flew it after an overnight soak. Then in chilly winds, almost blizzard-like conditions.

Upadhyay and co. did not have risk on their mind. "We didn't have the time to think. So there was no worrying. In any case, flying is part of our life. We have done it before and we'll keep doing it in future. If you love what you do, you don't think of what turns out for you. You learn to expect that in a pilot's life."

Sir, do you wonder why we don't hold much with CAG's biles ?

Note on the dhruv programme : the helo was initially cleared for service with twin TM333 2B2 (1000 shp each) with the understanding that the more powerful shakti engine (1200 shp each) under joint development with TM at that time will be used in later versions. that is how military projects are developed the world over, you don't get the best version on day one.

IIRC army was the first recipient of the initial TM 333 versions since it had a pressing need for utility helos. it is myopic, obnoxious, misleading and sheer incompetence on the part of CAG to castigate a very successful program due to sheer lethargy.

an audit that comes two years late has absolutely no relevance to a dynamic project.

P.S. I'll move the latest discussions to army thread and/or mil aviation.

[KrishG]

HAL looking for global partner to design trainer aircraft

http://www.hindu.com/2009/07/20/stories ... 201100.htm

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has decided to rope in an international partner for the design and development of the much needed ab initio turbo trainer for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Navy...........including Embraer (for their Tucano), Pilatus (PC-21), Raytheon (T-6 Texan), Finmeccanica (M-311), Grob Aircraft Company (G-120TP) and Korea Aerospace Industries (KT-1).......The RFI is for 200 aircraft, with HAL being the sole worldwide manufacturer. The trainer, which will be named Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (HTT-40), will replace the HAL-designed Hindustan Piston Trainer-32 (HPT-32) Deepak............Justifying the decision to rope in a partner, a senior HAL official explained that it could take four to five years if they were to develop a trainer on their own. “Roping in an established partner who has already designed a trainer of this sort will not only mean compressing timelines, but also offering the IAF a top-of-the-line product incorporating most of what the IAF wants. The RFI is the first cut in the process of finding a partner. We hope to finalise the trainer’s specs and our partner by March 2010.”

[Vikram_S]

Vikram_S,

Full marks for chutzpah . Write rudely and when ticked off for the rudeness claim to be personally attacked .

Dear Arun, when you post a link which is full of trashy media sensationalism, somebody will surely say it is trash, no.

In this case it was me who said this. In other cases it will be somebody else.

Why, in missile thread did you not post another one liner with a dubious link and a throwaway statement supporting that link, and Gerard clearly said by pointing out how nonsense filled that link was?

Didnt see you throwing a tantrum there.

Let me make it clear, in case you still dont understand - what you posted from CAG was trash, it was sensationalist media nonsense.

You could have done a basic of five minutes of research before posting that link and saying "its not DDMitis" or whatever.

BR FOrum is widely read one. HAL Dhruv is India's pre-eminent aviation product on cusp of further exports and bringing success to Indian industry.

Posting links from Google feed is fine, but when google can give trash, it is our duty to do a bit more.

I notice you have a history of being ........ ahem ........ “difficult” and have received a friendly warning from the Moderators, namely Ramana with regard to your behaviour with Sunilupa. To jog your memory here is that moderators warning.

Dear Arun, your behaviour continues to amuse me.

First, Ramana normally tells a lot of people on different threads to hold on to their horse, because nature of the topics is that many posters get disgusted with different topics.

Second, you are not a moderator & are not going to be one anytime soon, I would reasonably guess, so let us leave the school style "teacher teacher he said this, he said that" behind.

But- what really surprises me is this thing.

You had time to make two personalized posts, go around digging some previous posts, waste all that time, but not one minute to check whether the link you posted about Dhruv had accurate information or was just sensationalism.

So far in this thread I have made some 4-5 posts, each with information on Dhruv. Those posts are being used constructively. All you have done is make personal posts and complain about me being "rude" to your poor CAG link.

As it still does not seem to have registered with you let me once again reiterate that it was rude for you to tell me and I quote “Before posting trash, why dont you check your sources”.

There are other more acceptable ways to communicate your disagreement with what has been said/linked by me rather than saying, as you did, that “trash” is being posted by me.

Dear Arun, at this point, I really dont care about how and why you are so cut up about the simple fact that you did post trash and you should have checked up your sources using google and made a more balanced post.

I think as adults, direct speaking is more relevant than honor and dignity points using euphemism and not getting to the point.

Let us contrast our behaviour so far - I have managed to find enough data on the Dhruv operations to show that the media report was sensationalist. It is as simple as that.

You on the other hand continue to attack me instead of sticking to the matter on hand.

Its amusing and totally bizarre in fact that you think "How many more press articles is it going to take to get you to quit acting like an ill-mannered bumpkin with faster fingers than good sense is not rude, but my telling you that the CAG link was trash and you should have just checked/done some basic research was worthy of extended 3 post tantrum.

You can continue to have more personalized post directed at me, but you will just be wasting your own time and mine also. I think it is clear, that unless you bring something relevant to the topic, all this is a waste of bandwidth.

And yes, if I post something from the internet on this forum, I will always make sure I add whether the report is even balanced or just hype to get more eyeballs for the webpage.

[Vikram_S]

HAL looking for global partner to design trainer aircraft

http://www.hindu.com/2009/07/20/stories ... 201100.htm

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has decided to rope in an international partner for the design and development of the much needed ab initio turbo trainer for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Navy...........including Embraer (for their Tucano), Pilatus (PC-21), Raytheon (T-6 Texan), Finmeccanica (M-311), Grob Aircraft Company (G-120TP) and Korea Aerospace Industries (KT-1).......The RFI is for 200 aircraft, with HAL being the sole worldwide manufacturer. The trainer, which will be named Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (HTT-40), will replace the HAL-designed Hindustan Piston Trainer-32 (HPT-32) Deepak............Justifying the decision to rope in a partner, a senior HAL official explained that it could take four to five years if they were to develop a trainer on their own. “Roping in an established partner who has already designed a trainer of this sort will not only mean compressing timelines, but also offering the IAF a top-of-the-line product incorporating most of what the IAF wants. The RFI is the first cut in the process of finding a partner. We hope to finalise the trainer’s specs and our partner by March 2010.”

Sir, this is actually good news.
This is a very important and long overdue project.
The key complaint of IAF against HAL/PSU is "time taken for project", all the rest is usually manageable.

Now in case of other countries, such as Korea and Taiwan, local aerospace industry was heavily funded and existing design were either transferred or deep assistance given for local projects. Now if we see the attempts made by Korea (south) for export, it is laudable.

By dealing with international partner who can give worldclass inputs and cut down on cycle time, HAL can give IAF a product in correct timeframe. The partner will also expose HAL to complete end to end product lifecycle practises which is now being implemented in HAL for different projects.

One not so good thing of this approach is that % of local content is not as high as in DRDO project such as LCA but I will say that as long as HAL can make local assembly of critical items and get europe non sanction supply chain, it is fine and acceptable to services. If IAF buy this same product from Europe, US, or South America - under the bonnet are same stickers of worldwide supplier, and this way IAF get control of end to end delivery, lower per unit cost and design rights to modify and develop this plane further.

[Vikram_S]

Details of the Mirage 2000 upgrade on Livefist

The person has confused somethings in other link about Mirage 2000 upgrade (this one is correct with RDY2) - he posts the PAJ-FA jammer and upgrade details of other combat aircraft, when Mirage 2000 V has IEWS (Integrated electronic warfare system) internally placed with very high discrimination and response capability. Podded jammer if given will be for high capability suppression jamming not PAJ FA.

Rest is correct. For simplicity sake, I would say we see the Mirage 2000 V config, and avionics should be mostly same. Of course what is funny is India spent much time making sure last batch of Mirage it got from France was downgraded to H/TH standard, and now cost has gone up

Rs 10,000cr deal likely for Mirage-2000 upgrade

I read that this deal also comes with ToT. What is the ToT we are expecting from this deal any ideas?
It seems quite hazy right now.

Sir this deal will not come with TOT. We must also define TOT, TOT for what, fifty planes which have no common things with most of remaining IAF fleet? So it will not make sense.

But France will transfer ability to conduct upgrades locally which is not strictly TOT, but more of knowledge transfer in integration, test assembly of Mirage 2000H to 2000V standard

Also, per DPP the deal should come with 30% offset which if we are seeing MiG-29 deal as example for upgrade, may have Dassault-Thales use that amount against infrastructure for upgrade, initial spares and logistics

[putnanja]

One not so good thing of this approach is that % of local content is not as high as in DRDO project such as LCA but I will say that as long as HAL can make local assembly of critical items and get europe non sanction supply chain, it is fine and acceptable to services.

I think the % of local content will be the same or slightly less, but not by huge margin. The partner is for design and development, and I don't think it is equivalent to full TOT for an existing plane.

[Vikram_S]

Nearly Half of Russian Air-to-Air Missiles with IAF have Homing, Ageing Problems : CAG Report
The Indian Express

Nearly Half of Russian Air-to-Air Missiles with IAF have Homing, Ageing Problems : CAG Report
Manu Pubby
Posted online: Thursday , July 16, 2009 at 0303 hrs

New Delhi : Putting a big question mark on the performance of the Russian beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missiles with the Indian Air Force, an audit report by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has noted that nearly half the missiles tested either did not home in on targets during evaluations or failed ground tests because they were ageing much before their shelf lives.
The R 77 (RVV-AE) BVR missiles, fitted on board the Su-30 MKIs, MiG-29s and MiG-21 Bisons, were bought from Russia starting 1996. More than 2,000 missiles were ordered after the Kargil conflict and 1,000 have been delivered.

The CAG report, which will be released soon, is based on evaluations of the missile — its range is close to 90 km — during ground tests, inspections and test firing by the IAF. The missiles were bought at a “cost of Rs 2 crore each” but their failure during tests, says the CAG report, has affected the “operational preparedness” of the IAF.

“All figures in the report are based on air force records. Everything is verified by the IAF,” an official said.

The problem with the missiles was referred to Russia and several teams subsequently visited India to rectify faults. IAF officers familiar with the missiles confirmed that this has been a problem area for long. “It is a known fact that the missiles do not work as we would like them to. Periodic tests that are carried out when they are in storage show their dismal state. We also have problems with spare parts,” said a retired officer who was closely associated with the matter.

Former Air Chief Marshal S Krishnaswamy said: “When the missiles were bought, they were top of the line, world class systems that no other country had. As we did not have our own testing facilities, they had to be tested in Russia. The question to be asked is whether the government approved testing facilities for the missiles in India.”

The IAF has for long enjoyed an edge over Pakistan due to its inventory of BVR air-to-air missiles. In an article on the Pakistani side of the Kargil war — it was published in The Indian Express — the then PAF Director (Operations) Kaiser Tufail admitted that the presence of the BVR missiles with the IAF kept away the Pakistani F-16s from disrupting aerial bombing being carried out by India near the Line of Control.

Gentlemen, note the problem with CAG report and how media subsequently reports it

So there is problem with RVVAE missiles (why is this surprising? this is new system of its kind introduced in entirely new climate, half the world away from developer) - for comparison sake, please see issue of Mica in Taiwan & clearly AMRAAM missile was not available to India.

Then the part I have put in bold shows that the problem was solved (it says several teams visited India, not still visiting, implying problem was solved) or at very least it is being tackled

The part after that is again "in the past" given by a "retired officer".

So clearly, the IAF was seized of problem gravity and undertook measure to solve the issue. But this is not clearly brought out in the media.

Now media will say this non stop that RVVAE with IAF dont work. And this will just hurt indian deterrence.

This is the problem of old CAG report recycled when it is out of date to make the media get something newsworthy and CAG people also dont admit that the free media ride is not always good

[Andrew DeCristofaro]

This is the problem of old CAG report recycled when it is out of date to make the media get something newsworthy and CAG people also dont admit that the free media ride is not always good

in prasun k sengupta post a RVV AE missile has life of 8 years or 55 hours on aircraft and from 1996 to 2009 its 13 years and there was no uplifting was done to increase the life of missiles or if uplifting was done there must be a report on this.

[svinayak]

Posting in full since its a tiny article:


The IAF will deploy two aircraft to film the rare total solar eclipse in India on July 22. While one transport aircraft AN-32 with a team of scientists from Vigyan Prasar and a crew of Doordarshan will take off from Patna or Bagdogra and track the setting sun up to Agra, the Mirage fighter jet will film the sequence around Gwalior.

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... st&p=99827

[negi]

^ I remember long time back when there was a total solar eclipse , it was the Mig-25's which were tasked with tracking and recording the sequence of events.

[Kartik]

Shiv Aroor has posted some good pics of the No.9 Wolfpack Mirage-2000TH and its pilots that took images of the solar eclipse, as well as the An-32 that took images.

I've actually wanted to ask this for quite sometime now..does anyone know why the practice of painting the squadron symbol was discontinued ? the earlier Mirages used to carry the Tiger's head or the Battleaxe insignia and I've seen the Wolfpack insignia on MiG-27s before..now they've wiped off these from all the Mirages..was this done after the IAF began implementing the low-viz "Tipnis" gray camo on all fighters ? and how come the Mirages were spared ?

[chetak]

quote="Juggi "Nearly Half of Russian Air-to-Air Missiles with IAF have Homing, Ageing Problems : CAG Report
The Indian Express

Nearly Half of Russian Air-to-Air Missiles with IAF have Homing, Ageing Problems : CAG Report
Manu Pubby
Posted online: Thursday , July 16, 2009 at 0303 hrs

New Delhi :
Gentlemen, note the problem with CAG report and how media subsequently reports it

So there is problem with RVVAE missiles (why is this surprising? this is new system of its kind introduced in entirely new climate, half the world away from developer) - for comparison sake, please see issue of Mica in Taiwan & clearly AMRAAM missile was not available to India.

Then the part I have put in bold shows that the problem was solved (it says several teams visited India, not still visiting, implying problem was solved) or at very least it is being tackled

The part after that is again "in the past" given by a "retired officer".

So clearly, the IAF was seized of problem gravity and undertook measure to solve the issue. But this is not clearly brought out in the media.

Now media will say this non stop that RVVAE with IAF dont work. And this will just hurt indian deterrence.

This is the problem of old CAG report recycled when it is out of date to make the media get something newsworthy and CAG people also dont admit that the free media ride is not always good

Any audit objection, how so ever minor has to be mandatorly answered in a very tight time frame or all hell breaks loose.

The point is that the answers to the CAG audit objections by the IAF may be classified ( in fact it's bound to be ).

The DDM has selectively quoted some CAG reports.

Whether such media personnel were paid off to do so in view of the forthcoming 126 fighter aircraft deal is an point worth considering

[Vikram_S]

andrew,

sir, prasun sengupta writes a lot of BS stuff also, so i would hesitate to say he has final word on this matter and IAF would not even know that it needs to "remanufacture" the missile to get it for another x years.

sengupta usually takes any common report on internet or on BR Forum and then add masala and other salt to report and present it as inside scoop. it is in most cases his imagination.

also, deliveries are usually done in batch amounts per year basis, so different batch will have different life amounts.

finally, russians also give training rounds for training purpose (you can identify them by black band on missile body) which are usually used. so it is doubtful it is a case of IAF overusing missile.

the simplest point to be considered is that this is first missile of its class, very compact and high technology, developed by russia during economic crisis and it will take time for such technology to stabilise in production.

in vietnam war and later, US had huge problem with sparrow missiles which were not rugged. measures were done to make them more capable of rough, soldierly use.

in case of RVVAE i am sure IAF would have provided lessons learnt and this missile would by now, be in a more ready state of availability.

if the issue was not solved then IAF would be rushing today for MICA missile or Derby missile (even with lower range) for arming its MKIs. but it is not.

simplest explanation is usually right, that this problem is not such a problem as ddm is saying and there is a solution.

also regarding audit, chetakji has point that audit objections if not answered due to whatever reason, time or classification issue, are promptly made "sealed in stone" by CAG.

also CAG has serious issues with understanding and commenting on research and technology

[Andrew DeCristofaro]

if the issue was not solved then IAF would be rushing today for MICA missile or Derby missile (even with lower range) for arming its MKIs. but it is not.

simplest explanation is usually right, that this problem is not such a problem as ddm is saying and there is a solution.

also regarding audit, chetakji has point that audit objections if not answered due to whatever reason, time or classification issue, are promptly made "sealed in stone" by CAG.

also CAG has serious issues with understanding and commenting on research and technology

as far as seriousness of CAG report,it also says that mig29 uses r77 but till today mig29 using r27.

this report further says that r77 were acquired in 1996 but for which aircraft at that time there was no aircraft in inventory which could fire r77,first su30k were equipped with r27 missiles so why did IAF acquired r77 when their was no aircraft on which r77 could be used.

first aircraft which used r77 was mig21bison which and that year was 2002

or probably BR site says SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute) reported that 300 R-27R1/T1 air-to-air missiles were ordered by the Indian Air Force in 1995 and all 300 missiles were delivered in the same year. SIPRI reported that 1140 R-27E missiles were ordered in 1996 and 250 were delivered by 2001. SIPRI also reported that 1140 R-27R1/T1 missiles were ordered from Ukraine in 1996 and 304 were delivered by 2001 is wrong

[George J]

as far as seriousness of CAG report,it also says that mig29 uses r77 but till today mig29 using r27........this report further says that r77 were acquired in 1996 but for which aircraft at that time there was no aircraft in inventory which could fire r77,first su30k were equipped with r27 missiles so why did IAF acquired r77 when their was no aircraft on which r77 could be used...........first aircraft which used r77 was mig21bison which and that year was 2002.......................

........Pushpinder Singh Chopra, in a June 2001 AW&ST issue, said HAL had prepared production plans for 350 RD-33 turbofans at its Koraput plant. Upon further examination it was revealed that between 1990 and 1998, that HAL indeed had produced 350 RD-33 turbofans at its Koraput plant. On 15 July 1998, HAL delivered the first fully rebuilt and upgraded MiG-29 to the Indian Air Force. The upgrade has enabled the aircraft to fire the R-77RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) air-to-air missile, also known as the Amraamski. A test of the Amraamski from an Indian Air Force MiG-29 was conducted in October 1998. Future upgrades will include a new avionics fit, with the N-109 radar being replaced by a Phazatron Zhuk-M radar. The aircraft is also being equipped for air-to-air refuelling to increase endurance.

Would some jingo be kind enough and post the PICTURE of the Mig-29 static display showing the RVV-AE?

[Arun_S]

Cross posting from army thread:

HAL Cheetal for Air Force

New lightweight engine enables increased range, endurance

BANGALORE: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited handed over the first batch of four Cheetal helicopters to the Indian Air Force at HAL’s Barrackpore Division near Kolkata on Saturday.

N. C. Agarwal, Director (Design and Development), handed over the helicopters to Air Vice-Marshal (AVM) M. Bahadur, Assistant Chief of Air Staff.

“The IAF had placed an order for 10 Cheetals, of which the first batch of four has been delivered. The remaining six are expected to be handed over by September. We expect the IAF’s order to be followed up by the Army and also the government, which is looking at procuring helicopters for various roles, especially for internal security,” said R. Srinivasan, Managing Director (Helicopter Complex), HAL.

AVM Bahadur said: “The re-engined Cheetals will increase our operational capabilities, especially for high altitude operations.”

The Cheetal is the re-engined Cheetah helicopter, with the replacement of Artouste IIIB with the TM 333-2M2 engine. The reduced weight of the TM 333-2M2 engine, with better specific fuel consumption, facilitates increased range, endurance and payload, making the helicopter more versatile in various roles. The Cheetal has been designed to incorporate upgraded features such as lightweight modern technology cockpit instruments like the electrically driven Artificial Horizon, Directional Gyro, and lightweight modern avionics — accurate navigation and homing through GPS, VHF HOMER, Flight Monitoring System (FMS), Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) and Emergency Locator Transmitter.

“It is a proud moment for HAL Barrackpore,” Mr. Agarwal said.

The Cheetal landed at 23,220-ft (7070m) pressure altitude equivalent to 25,150-ft (7670m) density altitude at Saser Kangri of the Ladakh region in the Himalayas in November 2004, setting a world record in high altitude landing.

In 2004 my brother chose the landing spot for this Cheetal test flight and escorted it during this operation.

IIRC Cheetal increased the chopper payload to "Sonam" from 35 kg to a mighty 80-90 kg. Almost double of current Cheetha. Am curious to know what the new re-engined ALH-Dhruv's payload is to Sonam?

Air Vice Marshal Bahadur was earlier CO of 114HU at Leh from 14 Nov 94 to 22 Apr 97. 114HU has always flown Cheetah since inception. Here is an article written by Wing Commander M. Bahadur: SIACHEN GLACIER OPERATIONS. THE BUILDUP TO OPERATION MEGHDOOT

[Rahul M]

dhruv with shakti engine : 400-500 kg

[Arun_S]

Here are two articles that wrote on 114HU

No.114 Helicopter Unit

A Visit to Leh

[putnanja]

In 2004 my brother chose the landing spot for this Cheetal test flight and escorted it during this operation.

IIRC Cheetal increased the chopper payload to "Sonam" from 35 kg to a mighty 80-90 kg. Almost double of current Cheetha. Am curious to know what the new re-engined ALH-Dhruv's payload is to Sonam?

Air Vice Marshal Bahadur was earlier CO of 114HU at Leh from 14 Nov 94 to 22 Apr 97. 114HU has always flown Cheetah since inception. Here is an article written by Wing Commander M. Bahadur: SIACHEN GLACIER OPERATIONS. THE BUILDUP TO OPERATION MEGHDOOT

Arun, glad to hear something positive from close to horse's mouth. Shiv Arror in his blog has this article where he says:

LiveFist Note: When I visited the 666 Siachen Falcons Cheetah squadron in Leh in 2006, pilots there said that the re-engineed Cheetal was not sufficient to fulfil the IAF's needs -- they mentioned that the entire transmission system and gearbox needed to be changed as well, and if that didn't happen, the upgraded chopper wouldn't be a meaningfully more capable platform than the existing Cheetah.

Do you have any info on that? Was the entire transmission system updated/replaced or only the engine? Was there any additional vibration issues due to the new engine?

[Raj Malhotra]

In 2004 my brother chose the landing spot for this Cheetal test flight and escorted it during this operation.

IIRC Cheetal increased the chopper payload to "Sonam" from 35 kg to a mighty 80-90 kg. Almost double of current Cheetha. Am curious to know what the new re-engined ALH-Dhruv's payload is to Sonam?

Air Vice Marshal Bahadur was earlier CO of 114HU at Leh from 14 Nov 94 to 22 Apr 97. 114HU has always flown Cheetah since inception. Here is an article written by Wing Commander M. Bahadur: SIACHEN GLACIER OPERATIONS. THE BUILDUP TO OPERATION MEGHDOOT

Arun, glad to hear something positive from close to horse's mouth. Shiv Arror in his blog has this article where he says:

LiveFist Note: When I visited the 666 Siachen Falcons Cheetah squadron in Leh in 2006, pilots there said that the re-engineed Cheetal was not sufficient to fulfil the IAF's needs -- they mentioned that the entire transmission system and gearbox needed to be changed as well, and if that didn't happen, the upgraded chopper wouldn't be a meaningfully more capable platform than the existing Cheetah.

Do you have any info on that? Was the entire transmission system updated/replaced or only the engine? Was there any additional vibration issues due to the new engine?

I would also like to know that if there is any proposal for Cheetal-2 with better transmission and avionics?

[Gagan]

Cornyn: We Need F-22 To Protect Us From...India?

Cornyn: We Need F-22 To Protect Us From...India?
By Eric Kleefeld - July 24, 2009, 6:14PM

Check out this new Web video from Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX), in which he he says we need to keep the F-22 fighter plane in order to deal with emerging international threats -- including India, which is an ally of the United States:

"It's important to our national security because we're not just fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq," Cornyn says. "We're fighting -- we have graver threats and greater threats than that: From a rising India, with increased exercise of their military power; Russia; Iran, that's threatening to build a nuclear weapon; with North Korea, shooting intercontinental ballistic missiles, capable of hitting American soil."

The stuff about North Korea and Iran should be expected as a talking point about national security. But why is he including a country that is not in any way an enemy, with a military that does not pose a credible threat to the US in the first place?

This is not a new pitch by the F-22 manufacturers, Lockheed martin (Incidentally who are trying to sell the F-16 IN)

Here the F-22 takes on the Mig-29, the Su-30 MKI and the Rafale




Now if only one could really be invisible in real life.

[manjgu]

RaviBG... I think both Arun_s and Aroor are right....

the payload has increased but maybe IAF wants more to be lifted...

[Rahul M]

.......
I would also like to know that if there is any proposal for Cheetal-2 with better transmission and avionics?

I think this is that version. I'm not 100% sure but I vaguely remember reading that the inputs were incorporated and the versions updated. that would also explain the delay in handing over.

the original cheetal was by and large ready by 2005 end +/- a few months. if its the same version they have handed over to the IAF now they won't have needed 3 years to do it.

[k prasad]

.......
I would also like to know that if there is any proposal for Cheetal-2 with better transmission and avionics?

I think this is that version. I'm not 100% sure but I vaguely remember reading that the inputs were incorporated and the versions updated. that would also explain the delay in handing over.

the original cheetal was by and large ready by 2005 end +/- a few months. if its the same version they have handed over to the IAF now they won't have needed 3 years to do it.

NOw that you mention it, IIRC, Prasad Subramanyam did mention something about upgrading Gearboxes and Transmissions at the AI seminar... it didnt strike me then, since it was on the same slide as the Cheetah, Chetak, etc... but I now think he was referring to this very thing. Lemme check me notes... I may have scribbled something up there.

[Cain Marko]

Nearly Half of Russian Air-to-Air Missiles with IAF have Homing, Ageing Problems : CAG Report
Manu Pubby
Posted online: Thursday , July 16, 2009 at 0303 hrs

FWIW, the Roosi pov:

The last lot was delivered in July 2002. In fact, India was the first foreign customer of this weapon. It is common knowledge that in the first years of operation of new, rather sophisticated weapons (like air-to-air guided missiles) it is hardly possible to avoid certain shortcomings related to either design deficiencies or mastering of operation and maintenance techniques. They emerged during deliveries of the first lots of RVV-AE missiles to India and were addressed.

and

It is noteworthy that the Russian specialists constantly monitor operation of RVV-AE missiles both in Russia and abroad. In accordance with the approved programmes of reliability control activities are carried out on a regular basis, including live launches at Russian test sites.
It is also worth saying that no serious claims have been made by any other foreign customers in relation to RVV-AE missiles.
Publications on allegedly low quality of RVV-AE missiles held in India must have been caused by marketing efforts of the manufacturers of competitive products.

From: http://eng.ktrv.ru/news/company/153.html

CM.

[shivendrashukla]

Gagan,
That's just a ploy by LM to continue the production line for F-22. Recently Obama administration had decided not to order the follow up numbers of f-22's.

As for the Cornyn statement, he has issued a statement that he meant China and not India.

Regds
Shivendra

[sarang]

It seems US of A ultimately come to know that India will eventually will have Su-30 MKI & Dassault Rafale.

[Andrew DeCristofaro]

ridiculously OT post edited.

[Andrew DeCristofaro]

........Pushpinder Singh Chopra, in a June 2001 AW&ST issue, said HAL had prepared production plans for 350 RD-33 turbofans at its Koraput plant. Upon further examination it was revealed that between 1990 and 1998, that HAL indeed had produced 350 RD-33 turbofans at its Koraput plant. On 15 July 1998, HAL delivered the first fully rebuilt and upgraded MiG-29 to the Indian Air Force. The upgrade has enabled the aircraft to fire the R-77RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) air-to-air missile, also known as the Amraamski. A test of the Amraamski from an Indian Air Force MiG-29 was conducted in October 1998. Future upgrades will include a new avionics fit, with the N-109 radar being replaced by a Phazatron Zhuk-M radar. The aircraft is also being equipped for air-to-air refuelling to increase endurance.

Would some jingo be kind enough and post the PICTURE of the Mig-29 static display showing the RVV-AE?

till today mig29 has old N019 radar which can engage only one target with 2 r27 missiles,this radar doesn't has capability to fire r77 fire and forget missile.

it will be 2-3 years from now when mig29 are fitted with zhuk me radar to use r77 missiles.

i hope our mig29 will look like this after upgrade

http://sirviper.com/fighters/mig-29/mig29_10.jpg
http://sirviper.com/fighters/mig-29/mig29_6.jpg
http://sirviper.com/fighters/mig-29/mig29_7.jpg
http://sirviper.com/fighters/mig-29/mig29_9.jpg

[Dmurphy]

till today mig29 has old N019 radar which can engage only one target with 2 r27 missiles,this radar doesn't has capability to fire r77 fire and forget missile.

it will be 2-3 years from now when mig29 are fitted with zhuk me radar to use r77 missiles.

Are you serious, boy?

The Pukis themselves acknowledged the existence of Mig-29s with BVRs during the Kargil war 10 years back!

Whats more, the Mig-29s locked on to 2 F-16s with their BVR, which made them take a U-turn back home.

Seriously, ADC, stop posting your illinformed gyaan!

[Shameek]

f22 has 6 BVR missiles and if f22 fires two missiles on each target means it can engage 3 targets with 2 AMRAAMs fired at each target.
so considering one f22 against 4 su35bm
both f22 and su35 carrying advanced EW and sensors,half of those 6 AMRAAMs fired will be jammed or will not hit the target in this way F22 runs out of BVR missiles so in this way 2 su35bm are shot down but there are 2 su35bm still in the sky.

Firstly, aircraft are not sent up based on the price of the opponent. So they just might send 2 F-22's with one keeping its radar off. Even if we were to assume your logic is correct, 6 AMRAAMs, half of them hit, so 3 Su-30's are lost and not 2. And then the last Su-35 has to deal with the F-22.
Also, 3 Su-35 pilots lost is a huge price to pay. Is'nt it?

Then again, we neither have F-22's nor Su-35's. We are not fighting the US anytime soon. So we are going quite OT.

[Andrew DeCristofaro]

till today mig29 has old N019 radar which can engage only one target with 2 r27 missiles,this radar doesn't has capability to fire r77 fire and forget missile.

it will be 2-3 years from now when mig29 are fitted with zhuk me radar to use r77 missiles.

Are you serious, boy?

The Pukis themselves acknowledged the existence of Mig-29s with BVRs during the Kargil war 10 years back!

Whats more, the Mig-29s locked on to 2 F-16s with their BVR, which made them take a U-turn back home.

Seriously, ADC, stop posting your illinformed gyaan!

if you consider r27 not being beyond visual range missile only then you are right.

[negi]

Yo Andrew....The new Fulcrum=C's in IAF are equipped with newer version of N019M series (probably export version of N019M1(E Topaz ?) as this was the first in the series to be able to fire R-77, the M1 can engage 4 targets with R-77 simultaneously ) .

[Arun_S]

In 2004 my brother chose the landing spot for this Cheetal test flight and escorted it during this operation.

IIRC Cheetal increased the chopper payload to "Sonam" from 35 kg to a mighty 80-90 kg. Almost double of current Cheetha. Am curious to know what the new re-engined ALH-Dhruv's payload is to Sonam?

Air Vice Marshal Bahadur was earlier CO of 114HU at Leh from 14 Nov 94 to 22 Apr 97. 114HU has always flown Cheetah since inception. Here is an article written by Wing Commander M. Bahadur: SIACHEN GLACIER OPERATIONS. THE BUILDUP TO OPERATION MEGHDOOT

Arun, glad to hear something positive from close to horse's mouth. Shiv Arror in his blog has this article where he says:

LiveFist Note: When I visited the 666 Siachen Falcons Cheetah squadron in Leh in 2006, pilots there said that the re-engineed Cheetal was not sufficient to fulfil the IAF's needs -- they mentioned that the entire transmission system and gearbox needed to be changed as well, and if that didn't happen, the upgraded chopper wouldn't be a meaningfully more capable platform than the existing Cheetah.

Do you have any info on that? Was the entire transmission system updated/replaced or only the engine? Was there any additional vibration issues due to the new engine?

666 Siachen Falcon is a a unit of Indian Army aviation corp. I find it strange that the said pilot find the re-engined Cheetah not upto mark to fulfill IAF needs. Wow Army deciding one IAF needs !! To say the least that is a bogus statement.

I think this is that version. I'm not 100% sure but I vaguely remember reading that the inputs were incorporated and the versions updated. that would also explain the delay in handing over.

the original cheetal was by and large ready by 2005 end +/- a few months. if its the same version they have handed over to the IAF now they won't have needed 3 years to do it.

NOw that you mention it, IIRC, Prasad Subramanyam did mention something about upgrading Gearboxes and Transmissions at the AI seminar... it didnt strike me then, since it was on the same slide as the Cheetah, Chetak, etc... but I now think he was referring to this very thing. Lemme check me notes... I may have scribbled something up there.

Cheetal uses derated TM 333-2M2 engine (because it has too much power for the little craft's rotors). IIRC the TM 333-2M2 is lighter than current Cheetha engine.

The first Cheetal evaluation for Siachen was done in Leh ~2004. IAF liked it very much (I know) because it allowed higher safety margins and performance at high altitude. Currently Cheetha operated with "Zero"safety margin. The higher engine power also means there is more vibration, but given the risk of flying with no margin, any pilot will vouch for power versus vibration.

Fitting the TM 333-2M2 on Cheetha frame was a problem because the engine spins in the opposite direction. So HAL put in an external assembly to change the drive train to desired direction. This external direction changer is suboptimal due to unnecessary weight as well as additional vibration. IAF asked HAL to consider building the direction changing gear into the TM 333-2M2, but the French asked for an atrocious price for that simple change.

I am not sure if the IAF bite the bullet and ordered teh custom TM 333-2M2 engine with integrated gear to change direction. If it took them this much time to make and handover Cheetal to IAF, I suspect that is the case. That also means the Cheetal is lighter and less vibration than the first prototype.

I also note that the new craft has been updated with newer avionics. The 114 HU and 666 falcons today fly the small craft with old avionics that has literally no useful navigation capability for Siachen. Not even a GPS. These units largely operate on VFR (Visual Flight Rules), and bad weather flying is extremely dangerous.

IMVHO Cheetal is a valuable gift by HAL to IAF and IA units and the pilots that fly in northern Kashmir.
The consideration may be different for those who love foriegn catalog shopping.

BTW here is an article that may give some perspective to flying in Siachen area. WHERE EAGLES DARE - Arun S Vishwakarma

[A Sharma]

OVERHAUL DIV BAGS ORDER: HAL Overhaul Division has received an order for 51 Container Parachutes of Mk16 ejection seats used in LCA and IJT aircraft. The order from Martin Baker Aircraft Company is worth over Rs 36 lakh. The Container Parachute (also known as ‘Head Box Assembly’) is a part of the ejection seat in which the parachute is placed.One Container Parachute for First Article for Inspection (FAI) of Head Box Assembly was fabricated and despatched by Overhaul Div to Martin Baker on June 22. The successful completion of the order for Head Box Assembly would be a stepping stone for the planned JV between HAL and Martin Baker for the manufacture of aircraft ejection seats.

Link

[Drevin]

HAL forms unified helicopter complex to cater to growing business

Bangalore, June 23 Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has recast all its helicopter-related activities that were spread across units under a new, unified Helicopter Complex.

Mr Srinivasan will head five divisions: Helicopter, Helicopter MRO, Rotary Wing Research & Design Centre, Composite Manufacturing and the Barrackpore Division (that used to do overhauling), a company release said.

HAL’s helicopter programmes include light combat helicopter (LCH), the light observation helicopter (LOH) and the medium lift helicopter – or, simply, copters for combat and observation.
--
The Tata group, for example, has entered this space through tie-ups with old rotary warhorses – US-based Sikorsky and European Agusta Westland.

With Agusta, it plans to assemble AW119 copters in Pune for surveillance and reconnaissance.

With Sikorsky, it has said it will build cabins for the S-92 helicopters from a facility in Hyderabad.

[RKumar]

July 20 : HAL set to test fly upgraded Dhruv http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090721/nation.htm#8

The multirole weapon system helicopter will be test flown by HAL pilots within this week and factors like clear skies will decide the final date of the trial. A team from the French firm Turbomeca, manufacturer of low to medium power gas turbines for helicopters, is also camping in Leh and so are HAL flight and safety department personnel, sources told The Tribune.

HAL’s target is to fly the helicopter at an altitude higher than 6,500 metres

[svinayak]

As for the Cornyn statement, he has issued a statement that he meant China and not India.

Regds
Shivendra

Usually in the classified briefing they are given the right picture and right country. For outside press briefing they have a different set of information and country. Looks like he got the classified briefing into the press one.