Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby kancha » 30 May 2009 00:15

From Pak Tribune :rotfl:

Image

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ramana » 30 May 2009 00:17

Ahmed Rashid's

Pakistan on the Brink

....
Pakistan is close to the brink, perhaps not to a meltdown of the government, but to a permanent state of anarchy, as the Islamist revolutionaries led by the Taliban and their many allies take more territory, and state power shrinks. There will be no mass revolutionary uprising like in Iran in 1979 or storming of the citadels of power as in Vietnam and Cambodia; rather we can expect a slow, insidious, long-burning fuse of fear, terror, and paralysis that the Taliban have lit and that the state is unable, and partly unwilling, to douse.

In northern Pakistan, where the Taliban and their allies are largely in control, the situation is critical. State institutions are paralyzed, and over one million people have fled their homes. The provincial government of North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) has gone into hiding, and law and order have collapsed, with 180 kidnappings for ransom in the NWFP capital of Peshawar in the first months of this year alone. The overall economy is crashing, with drastic power cuts across the country as industry shuts down. Joblessness and lack of access to schools among the young are widespread, creating a new source of recruits to the Taliban. Zar-dari and Gilani have spent the past year battling their political rivals instead of facing up to the Taliban threat and the economic crisis.

According to the Islamabad columnist Farrukh Saleem, 11 percent of Pakistan's territory is either directly controlled or contested by the Taliban. Ten percent of Balochistan province, in the southwest of the country, is a no-go area because of another raging insurgency led by Baloch separatists. Karachi, the port city of 17 million people, is an ethnic and sectarian tinderbox waiting to explode. In the last days of April thirty-six people were killed there in ethnic violence. The Taliban are now penetrating into Punjab, Pakistan's political and economic heartland where the major cities of Islamabad and Lahore are located and where 60 percent of the country's 170 million people live. Fear is gripping the population there.

The Taliban have taken advantage of the vacuum of governance by carrying out spectacular suicide bombings in major cities across the country. They are generating fear, rumor, and also support from countless unemployed youth, some of whom are willing to kill themselves to advance the Taliban cause. The mean age for a suicide bomber is now just sixteen.

American officials are in a concealed state of panic, as I observed during a recent visit to Washington at the time when 17,000 additional troops were being dispatched to Afghanistan. The Obama administration unveiled its new Afghan strategy on March 27, only to discover that Pakistan is the much larger security challenge, while US options there are far more limited. The real US fear was bluntly addressed by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in Baghdad on April 25:

One of our concerns...is that if the worst, the unthinkable were to happen, and this advancing Taliban...were to essentially topple the government for failure to beat them back, then they would have the keys to the nuclear arsenal of Pakistan.... We can't even contemplate that.
Pakistan has between sixty and one hundred nuclear weapons, and they are mostly housed in western Punjab where the Taliban have made some inroads; but they are under the control of the army, which remains united and disciplined if ineffective against terrorism. In his press conference on April 29, President Obama made statements intended to be reassuring after the specter of Pakistani weakness evoked by Clinton, saying, "I feel confident that that nuclear arsenal will remain out of militant hands."

....


and read on.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Samay » 30 May 2009 00:23

^^ begging media at work

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby NRao » 30 May 2009 01:06

The snake (Islamists) is eating the frog (Government of Pakistan/US/China/etc) (already in the mouth of the snake) and while being swallowed the frog (Gov of Pakistan in specific and to some extent the US too) is looking for a fly (India) for dinner!!

Maya.

Going according to plan - MS Project.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby hnair » 30 May 2009 01:26



They can always burn the drones when they are parked in PAF hangars. Like those "NATO-bali" they do every month at supply depots serving Afghanistan. But whatever keeps the street abdul happy in his filth and misery....

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ramana » 30 May 2009 01:30

NRao wrote:The snake (Islamists) is eating the frog (Government of Pakistan/US/China/etc) (already in the mouth of the snake) and while being swallowed the frog (Gov of Pakistan in specific and to some extent the US too) is looking for a fly (India) for dinner!!

Maya.

Going according to plan - MS Project.



Rudradev can you draw this one up?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby vsudhir » 30 May 2009 01:40

We must all praise the Lord and be thankful for the enormous mess of corruption that permeates papistan (dwarfs even SDRE corruption levels by a mile!).

However much fiat $$$ TSP's sponsors pump into it to keep its military edge vis-a-vis Yindia sharp, major portion zimbly gets gobbled away and put to private uses that do not directly impinge on Yindia's security (like getting locked away in offshore vaults, for instance).

Of late, seems to me, going by the amount of $$ Dubya pumped in and what the porkis now routinely managed to extort from obama unkil - the ratio seems to have further deteriorated onlee.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby John Snow » 30 May 2009 01:43

for all we know the same vault money is being cycled in TSPakis, with just some swiss miss numbers to memorize :rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Anujan » 30 May 2009 02:18

ramana wrote:Ahmed Rashid's
Pakistan on the Brink
and read on.


Three years earlier, in 2004, Maulana Fazlullah ... who was at the time an unknown former ski-lift operator ...


No wonder he knows a thing or two about Paki army tactics :rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby NRao » 30 May 2009 02:47

What is pathetic is that there are the likes of Rashid Bhai who KNOW stuff, and, the US has in the past relied - specially Obama in the recent past - on such people. And, yet they manage to goof up big time.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby hnair » 30 May 2009 03:55

In the shadow of Pakistan's Taliban war

But the local tribes do not want either the army or the Taliban in the area.

"If the army comes in, the Taliban will follow, and vice versa :D ," says an influential tribal elder and former member of parliament, Malik Saeed Ahmad.



There is also a widespread belief that the Taliban are the creation of the army and are being used for the army's "secret" aims 8) .

The tribes are proposing to raise their own tribal force to check possible incursions by the Taliban, who have bases in the neighbouring Swat district to the west.

But officials think such a force is unlikely to match the Taliban's equipment, training and discipline. 8)


So this article more or less confesses what the entire world knows Taliban=Pak Army=well funded by American taxpayer money

But their chief concern at the moment is the security of a Chinese construction firm which is building a hydro-power project on the Indus river in the Dubair area of Kohistan.


These "chinese hydro-power projects" that dot all over the paki landscape are a matter of concern. Why are the chinese and pakistanis doggedly going ahead with these, despite the local unpleasantness? Is it because these massive civil works can mask military constructions like bunker storage for weapons and tunnels into mountain sides for parking TELs etc?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby svinayak » 30 May 2009 05:17

hnair wrote:
These "chinese hydro-power projects" that dot all over the paki landscape are a matter of concern. Why are the chinese and pakistanis doggedly going ahead with these, despite the local unpleasantness? Is it because these massive civil works can mask military constructions like bunker storage for weapons and tunnels into mountain sides for parking TELs etc?

WHo said it is dams.
They are looking at large scale re-enforcement of the countryside with concrete bunkers and underground posts. This is an indication that they are expecting a large scale attack and capture of Pak territory.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby MurthyB » 30 May 2009 05:54

ramana wrote:Ahmed Rashid's

Pakistan on the Brink



A few weeks ago they were at the crossroads. I wonder how many articles have been written in Pureland about being on the brink or on the crossroads. :rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Prem » 30 May 2009 06:06

Ahmak Rashid Paki,Master of Disguise ,foolling senile Uncle and Aunties.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0295427/

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Prem » 30 May 2009 06:18

Domestic political and security vicissitudes

causing anxiety to detractors of Pakistan. Another crude attempt was made on 27 May by RAW assisted by CIA to shake Lahore. An explosive laden vehicle rammed into a police building and razed it to ground. So powerful was the blast that it caused extensive damage to the adjacent building of ISI. The pattern was the same as adopted in case of attacks on Naval War College, FIA building, Sri Lanka cricket team and Manawan Police Academy.

100 kg C4 explosive was used to be able to bring down the ISI offices which were the real target of the assailants. The premeditated attack was launched at a time when the whole attention of the nation was diverted towards Malakand and IDPs. Baitullah led Tehrik-e-Taliban on payroll of CIA and RAW promptly accepted the responsibility and termed it as a reaction to Swat operation, which gave cover to masterminds. Apart from vengeance against ISI and destabilizing Punjab, another objective was to make Punjab government cautious, impelling it to stop entry of IDPs into Punjab as it has successfully done in Sindh. Bomb blasts have also occurred in Peshawar and DIK to force NWFP government to stop military operation. Gen Kayani rightly said that such dastardly acts would never terrorise the nation. Army operations are proceeding as planne
http://www.asiantribune.com/?q=node/18032


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Dipanker » 30 May 2009 08:22



Pukistan seems to be headed towards reward money economy. :)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 30 May 2009 08:23

Security tightened in Islamabad - Nirupama Subramanian

It is Code Red guys.

Fear of a terrorist backlash has risen especially after Hakimullah Mehsud, a deputy to the Pakistani Taliban commander Beithullah Mehsud, said the Taliban had carried out the Lahore attack and warned of striking in Islamabad, Rawalpindi, Lahore and Multan if the government did not stop the Swat operation. Ominously, he asked people to clear out of these cities.


Hakimullah already owes one for Islamabad.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby aser » 30 May 2009 08:34


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby svinayak » 30 May 2009 08:43


Pakistan is a unique nuclear weapons state. It has been both the recipient of technology transfers from other states and a supplier of technology to still other states. It has been a state sponsor of proliferation and has tolerated private sector proliferation as well. Pakistan has engaged in highly provocative behavior against India, even initiating a limited war, and sponsored terrorist groups that have engaged in mass casualty terrorism inside India’s cities, most recently last November in Mumbai. No other nuclear weapons state has done all of these provocative actions.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 30 May 2009 08:49

Engaging Pakistan: task for the new Government - Chinmaya Garekhan

This article by one of our top most diplomats reveals that MEA understands the true nature of the evil that Pakistan is but is bereft of ideas and is also weak kneed when it comes to Pakistan. A very disappointing article coming from such a top notch diplomat.
One of the messages the Indian electorate conveyed during the recent Lok Sabha elections is that the people do not want the government to engage in adventurism in the form of military intervention in our neighbourhood. . . As far as Pakistan is concerned, the intensity of the feeling has remained high. However, it never reached the level at which it could be interpreted as a clamour for military action.{Mr. Gharekhan is wrong}
There was a spate of articles in the media by many experts on Pakistan, including a few former army officers, demanding at least a token military response from the government. With the benefit of hindsight, it can be safely concluded that their opinions were not reflective of the real sentiments of the people. It is doubtful if the electorate went into any profound analysis of the risks involved, given the nuclear factor, in a military intervention even with limited objectives, though one must never underestimate the wisdom and capacity of the people of our country to examine such issues in simple terms. It was probably the innate desire of the people to avoid a war that led them not to demand a military response to Pakistan’s aggression.{It is obvious now why our diplomacy is so weak, if a veteran like Gharekhan writes like this}
The international community has applauded India’s restraint{What do such applauses bring India except more misery after a few months ? Why should we even care for such a pat on the back from the so called international community ?}, but it wants more from us. Given Pakistan’s fragile domestic situation, with fears being openly aired about Pakistan on the way to becoming a failed state, our friends abroad are asking us to adopt a statesmanlike approach. The argument, with a good deal of plausibility behind it, is that it is India which would be impacted the most by the events going on in Pakistan and hence it is in India’s interest to help Pakistan by, say, offering something to it. In practical terms, this translates into leaving Mumbai behind us and resuming the composite dialogue with Pakistan. The political leadership will have to take a call on these questions. It will have to assess whether the people are ready to forget Mumbai and forgive Pakistan.{This means that the political leadership has succumbed to US pressure and is about to re-start the dialogue if not already done so. This is the end of the Mumbai trials.}
It is reasonable to assume that the people definitely want some satisfaction from Pakistan on the Mumbai affair before the government could decide to resume the dialogue. It is this sentiment among the people that has led the new External Affairs Minister, Mr. S.M. Krishna, to declare that the perpetrators of the Mumbai massacre must be brought to credible prosecution before the dialogue can be resumed. What form such satisfaction should take can be worked out only through quiet diplomacy, with the help of friends as may be necessary.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby archan » 30 May 2009 08:49

Congrats on opening your account 'aser'. Took you long enoughl :mrgreen:
Good article to post to start it all off. Good as in - how Acharya ji put it. Pakis are as usual squirming in the comments section and some chankian evil yindoos are coolly showing them the bottom of their chappals.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby raji » 30 May 2009 08:59

archan wrote:Congrats on opening your account 'aser'. Took you long enoughl :mrgreen:
Good article to post to start it all off. Good as in - how Acharya ji put it. Pakis are as usual squirming in the comments section and some chankian evil yindoos are coolly showing them the bottom of their chappals.


Seems to me, it is the Pakis, who have been Chankian........and the Indians...the Nandas.......

Nixon and Kissinger must have learned from the Indians. Declare victory after a defeat and move on......Americans did it once in Vietnam............we Indians do it about once a month........

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby shiv » 30 May 2009 09:00



A half-truth is as much of a lie as any black lie

As usual Wall Street Journal gives India a subtle kick in the butt while forgetting that 3 million Hindu and non Hindu civilians were massacred in Bangladesh before the 1971 war, with 10 million refugees in India (20 times the number of refugees from Swat). And we mindlessly propagate such views because other statements give us comfort. Macaulayite views are spread exactly like this. The English press of the West is biased, but we still swallow it and praise it.

The origins of the Pakistani nuclear program lie in the deep national humiliation of the 1971 war with India that led to the partition of the country, the independence of Bangladesh and the destruction of the dream of a single Muslim state for all of south Asia’s Muslim population.


And read and enjoy this piece of utter hypocrisy coming from a mouthpiece of the West

U.S. options would be severely limited by Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal. We would need to work with India, Afghanistan, China and others to isolate the danger.
< snip >
Today some in Pakistan recognize at long last the existential threat to their freedoms comes from within, from the jihadists like the Taliban and al Qaeda, not from India. Now is the time to help them and ensure their hand is on the nuclear arsenal.


Why do we even link this crap on here?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby archan » 30 May 2009 09:04

How many of us expect the western commentators to be 100% correct? :P

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby raji » 30 May 2009 09:04

shiv wrote:


A half-truth is as much of a lie as any black lie

As usual Wall Street Journal gives India a subtle kick in the butt while forgetting that 3 million Hindu and non Hindu civilians were massacred in Bangladesh before the 1971 war, with 10 million refugees in India (20 times the number of refugees from Swat). And we mindlessly propagate such views because other statements give us comfort. Macaulayite views are spread exactly like this. The English press of the West is biased, but we still swallow it and praise it.

The origins of the Pakistani nuclear program lie in the deep national humiliation of the 1971 war with India that led to the partition of the country, the independence of Bangladesh and the destruction of the dream of a single Muslim state for all of south Asia’s Muslim population.


This is one characterization as Macaulayite, that I would endorse. This post is right on the money.

The heavy overuse of the term Macaulayite.........makes it less effective, even when used in the correct context. We would be wise not to co-opt the term Macaulayite to beat each other over the head, in the course of our petty internal squabbles....

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby shiv » 30 May 2009 09:18

archan wrote:How many of us expect the western commentators to be 100% correct? :P


No argument with this. But I had a rhetorical point to make regarding the manner in which th "Macaulayite" label is used when convenient about certain things - while blatant kicks on India's butt are allowed in for the same Macaulayite reasons.

We are all heavily influenced by the English press - with the dominant force being the American press, while many of us blame the English press in India as being blinkered. The English press is blinkered. Period. We have the opportunity to influence and change the English press in india - but that thought is dismissed on this forum by accusing the Indian English press of being under foreign control. But hey - we are under foreign control too - judging from the way we subtly pick up American themes and American viewpoints and gradually convert them into "world viewpoints" .

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby sum » 30 May 2009 10:07

New Delhi slams OIC’s resolutions

The Foreign office was also dismayed over a resolution referring to the terrorist attack in Mumbai in November last year as a mere “incident.” “It is most unfortunate that the spectre of terrorism confronting the international community, of which the attack on Mumbai by elements from Pakistan was an extreme manifestation, is not being unambiguously addressed by the OIC. We strongly reject such resolutions,” it added.

Last year, India had objected to observations on Jammu and Kashmir in the final document of the OIC summit in Dakar, Senegal.

Our great Arab "brothers" show their friendship towards us (with paki backing no doubt)...
Last edited by SSridhar on 30 May 2009 10:12, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed the URL tag

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 30 May 2009 10:11

Najam Sethi on nukes and peace

But a nuclear bomb is the best bargain counter for an agreement on peace and related economic arrangements that consolidate and perpetuate normal relations with perceived enemy states. In that sense the bomb is a weapon of peace, not of war. Today, the only unchanging element in Pakistan’s strategy is the perception of India as a permanent enemy. At the same time it is accepted on all hands that India cannot attack Pakistan because of the latter’s nuclear deterrence. This deterrence, however, will not be stable as long as the two countries remain daggers drawn against each other. That is why Pakistan wants the United States and its allies to persuade India to come to the negotiating table, because that is the only way forward to achieving stability in the region.


This is actually a nuclear blackmail and India has been succumbing to that repeatedly (Chinmaya Gharekhan's article posted above is a good example). Enormous pressure is mounting on an inexperienced SM Krishna, both by the US and the Pakistanis. With Pakistan actually releasing one-by-one the Mumbai masterminds, constantly berating India with not giving enough information, using delaying tactics etc., India seems once again falling flat on its face because of indecisive leadership.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Prem » 30 May 2009 10:16

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=180348
Are the Pakhtuns under siege?
The movement of some "Taliban" numbering about 25 riding in two vehicles from Swat to Buner was perhaps the turning point in the whole tragic episode.Whether this movement was orchestrated or whether the Taliban in their naivety took their own senseless decision would remain to be seen.But the fear of the Taliban taking control was so vociferously projected in the wake of two vehicles being driven into Buner by a few disorganised youths that it seemed like a deliberate move to create justification for a strong government intervention.Strangely, the implications of such a stupendous operations were overlooked. And then there was inexplicable and heavy reliance on air action--use of aircraft and gunships to bomb, rocket and shell villages which were being flattened.

The fact that Pakhtoons are being systematically killed and their properties destroyed from Farah, Helmand and Kunar to the tribal areas and Malakand Division has raised many disturbing questions in the minds of the people.Which other nation would get involved in a genocidal war for obtaining "assistance"? Indeed the whole pattern of the events would seem to fit in the overarching strategic goals of some distant imperial power. And if that is the case, watch out! Waziristan is next in line.Pakhtoons on both sides of the divide are paying a colossal price for not being "on board" and not being conformists; and this while they don't have any leadership worth the name. Genuine leaders would stay with their people and share with them their agonies and sufferings rather than choosing to stay away in such critical times in the history of Pakhtoons.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby shiv » 30 May 2009 10:54


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 30 May 2009 15:14

Haqqani's Obfuscation

The envoy said some people in Pakistan felt in the past an affinity for some extremist groups based on their causes, and there was some kind of confusion in the society.


Some people, eh ? The President, PM, COAS, Cabinet Ministers, Corps Commanders, the ISID etc. are all some people, eh ? And, some extremist groups ? Bl**dy all of them that attack India have been sponsored by these 'some people'. Some kind of confusion in the society, you said ? It's a big time **** up done for decades, deliberately and systematically by the State, none else, the very State, Mr. Haqqani. Did you say 'based on their causes' ? How have these causes disappeared now for others to feel that Pakistan has become a better entity ?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby JE Menon » 30 May 2009 15:50

From the OIC resolution on Muslims on Safeguarding the rights of Muslim Minorities in Non-OIC Member States (just to raise the blood pressure on a leisurely weekend - bolding relevant parts to make it worse :twisted: )

___________________________
11. Expresses its concern in the face of the rising activity against Muslims
in India perpetrated by extremist Hindus who are trying to build a Hindu temple
on the ruins of the historical Babri Mosque; expresses concern also about the
unnecessary delay in determining the responsibility for demolition of the Babri
Mosque
; and urges the Indian Government to ensure the reconstruction of the
Babri Mosque on its original site.

12. Expresses its deep concern at the condition of the Muslim minority in
India
and urges the Government of India to take effective and immediate
measures to end all violence and policies of discrimination against Muslims.
Notes with concern the plight of the victims of the Gujarat riots; condemns the
environment of fear that the victims are constantly obliged to live in; demands
that the culprits be immediately brought to justice; and urges the Secretary
General in this regard, to report on the situation of Muslims in India
to the next
CFM meeting.

13. Invites the General Secretariat to monitor the situation of Muslims in
India and to collect further information on the challenges and difficulties they
are facing, politically, socially and economically with a view to offering them
the required assistance, and to report on the matter to the next ministerial
conference
.

14. Also urges the Government of India to take steps to improve the
economic conditions of the Muslims of India in line with the recommendations
of the Sachar Committee Report
.
_________________________________

These semi-literate fatherless mofos are gonna be so pissed with the casual arrogance with which this arrant nonsense is going to be ignored, while we pursue business with them at the same time :twisted: - allowing them all the leisure to stew in their own hypocrisy...

http://www.oic-oci.org/36cfm/w/en/documents.htm

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby VinodTK » 30 May 2009 17:51

Cross posting from Intelligence & National Security Discussion thread

Pak develops second strike capability: US report

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby James B » 30 May 2009 18:07

Aliens in Lawhore, Pureland :rotfl:


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 30 May 2009 19:14

Without nukes, Pakistan could not have survived 26/11, 2001 Indian Parliament Attack and 26/11 Mumbai Attack: Samar Mubarakmand

This is another nuclear blackmail after the Najam Sethi edit posted above. The Pakis are accepting that nukes give them the strength to indulge in terrorism. They are so confident that India would not retaliate that they have given up covering their tracks nowadays.

He also said Pakistan has sufficient skilled work-force to launch its own satellite system and hopefully the country would be able to launch indigenously built Pak-SAT-I in 2011.


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby archan » 30 May 2009 19:30

That is true, however, India as a nation never had an affinity to fight wars unless it was under a major attack. I don't know if Indian decision makers did consider the parliament attack and 26/11 (much to our frustration) as 'major attacks'. So I am not sure that even if pakis didn't have nukes, Indians would have started a conventional war.
What I look at is the general indicators of the two nations. Pakis have been indulging in terrorism against India and getting away with it hoping to win more land from India one day. If I look at which of the two countries is better off than it was 10 years ago, then the paki strategy seems to have come to bite them in the musharraf. When I saw the PBS documentary this week, their country seems to be in a royal mess and there are hardly any signs of 21st century barring maybe a few cybercafes. It looks like one dusty mess-land. How long can a country survive on alms?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 30 May 2009 19:47

archan, it is not a question of whether Pakistan is in a mess or not. It had never been in a good shape for its entire life. It has always lived on the precipice, on borrowed time ever since Jinnah asked Maulana Usmani to hoist the national flag in Karachi. But, that is all besides the point. They have survived as a nation miraculously because they have three and a half powerful friends who have baled them out at every crisis. We don't care about that either. But, every time that country was thus baled out, Pakistan has only launched itself into even more reckless behaviour vis-a-vis India because we always failed to give them that knock-out punch. Its three-and-a-half friends (or masters depending on how one looks at them), wanted it that way and Pakistan obliged them. That's the hard lesson that MEA has not learnt. The cleaning up of Pakistan is going to be done eventually by India and India alone. By failing to act decisivley and when opportunities presented themselves, we are in a mess and we simply don't care whether Pakistan is in abigger mess or not. That doesn't give us any solace.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby raji » 30 May 2009 20:00

SSridhar wrote:archan, it is not a question of whether Pakistan is in a mess or not. It had never been in a good shape for its entire life. It has always lived on the precipice, on borrowed time ever since Jinnah asked Maulana Usmani to hoist the national flag in Karachi. But, that is all besides the point. They have survived as a nation miraculously because they have three and a half powerful friends who have baled them out at every crisis. We don't care about that either. But, every time that country was thus baled out, Pakistan has only launched itself into even more reckless behaviour vis-a-vis India because we always failed to give them that knock-out punch. Its three-and-a-half friends (or masters depending on how one looks at them), wanted it that way and Pakistan obliged them. That's the hard lesson that MEA has not learnt. The cleaning up of Pakistan is going to be done eventually by India and India alone. By failing to act decisivley and when opportunities presented themselves, we are in a mess and we simply don't care whether Pakistan is in abigger mess or not. That doesn't give us any solace.


Sridhar,

You are right on the money.

Pak may be in a bigger mess today vis-a-vis its own situation 10 years ago, but vis-a-vis India its more empowered. Its nuclear blackmail of India is firmly in place, and it doesnt hesitate to use it every day. It has its fangs in almost all trouble spots in India and sorrounding India. As long as it keeps bleeding India, it will not only survive, but also keep getting aid from not only massa, who conceivably may stop at some point, but what are you going to do about the oil wealth of Saudi and others who will perpetually finance it and prevent it from going bankrupt or even being "finished off" or "cleaned up" by India, through their financial and political clout around the world.

Th only difference I have with what you stated above is that "the cleaning up of Pak will be eventually done by India". I dont think that is a foregone conclusion, that India will ever have the wherewithall to do it. Indian power equation vis-a-vis Pak has been consistently on the decline (a straight line down if you graph it) since at least 1971 and the decline continues every year, every day and everyminute. What is appalling is that the politicians and the bureacracy in India doesnt know it or acknowledge it or has this "chalta hai" attitude or is too busy making money to be distracted by this. What is even more appalling is that educated and sensible people like us indulge in jingoism and live in denial rather than accept and acknowledge the fact that our ability to "cleanup pak" is declining by the year, month, day and minute. Instead we only revel in their internal strife, which strangely is not strengthening India. Unless we acknowledge our sorry state of affairs, there is no hope, we will take collective and strong steps to reverse. I dont see us coming out of our denial anytime soon and therefore, am not hopeful at all that we ever will have the will and the strength to "cleanup Pak mess".


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