Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

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RajeshA
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 11 Jun 2009 23:08

CRamS wrote:
RajeshA wrote:
The question is not whether USA has some ready-made general abstract quote on Kashmir for public consumption that matters. What matters is their policies, and Obama, at least after becoming President, has not put Kashmir on the table as yet. We too are not discussing Diego Garcia with them.

We should stop being too sensitive on Kashmir. Lets just show everybody the middle finger, without getting upset and everything.



We are sensitive because we are depending on US to stop TSP from their terrorist hanky panky against us. And US, sensitive to TSP, cannot do more than mouth innaities when TSP attacks India and cries Kashmir. Thats the problem. India expects consistency from US, i.e., terror and talks, terror and poitical grievances cannot go hand in hand; just as US adopts that stand when it comes its interests or those of its western lackeys and Israel. India expects US to view TSP like it views Iran or Somalia or any of their 'bad guys'. But US says India TSP equal equal onlee; and naturally, that makes us sensitive. But as Shiv pointed out, this frustration and perhaps rabid impotent anger in private cannot translate into any public challenge to USA given our abject weaknesses.

USA has effecvtively told India, forget Mumbai, surrender to our TSP allies because that is in our interests. And India and Indians like me can do nothing but seethe with impotent rage. Very sad and pathetic.


I believe the problem is we wait too much on the telephone. Waiting for a call from Washington, explaining to us, what they think, how we should act, whether they have taken our concerns into consideration, etc. etc.

I am saying, lets just forget Washington and do our own thing. Washington is not the one who has put us into chains and paralyzed us. We have done that. All we need is to move on. Search for our own partners in Asia and beyond.

Why do we go to America? Because we think America is strong and will help us solve our problems. Why doesn't America come to us? Because we have nothing to offer. We do not have our fingers in every funny problem pie around here. China forced America into talks even though in the beginning of Bush Administration, there were problems with China. They did it by showing their purported influence over North Korea. America will take India seriously only if America thinks that India offers a solution to their strategic interests or to their problems.

That's why we should go ahead and build relations with Taliban, the 'Arab League', Myanmar and increase our level of intelligence resources in every single country in the neighborhood, the lizard included. The more we follow our own strategic interests, the more will we be of value to USA. We saw that after the Pokhran-II.

We should however stop cursing the Americans in a tone of bitterness, but rather criticizing them on their support to terrorism and terrorists of the world. We should put them on the back foot a little wrt Pakistan. We should be a friend, a partner, a competitor, a challenger, a necessity all at the same time.

All we have to do is forget the telephone and step outside. We don't need to be invincible to go outside, just convinced where our strategic interests lie, and not hesitate to put up a fight where needed.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby enqyoob » 11 Jun 2009 23:15

Poor chap :shock:


Try "insurance scam" too. 8)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby svinayak » 11 Jun 2009 23:19

Dilbu wrote:Maududi’s Children
How the intellectuality of Political Islam turned into the brutality of faithful fascism: Nadeem F. Paracha


Very important dialogue going on here.
The Muslims outside the Arab world are growing up with logic and reason. They find it odd that the faith they practice actually suppresses these thoughts. They are struggling to bring order into their lives by reinterpreting the texts.

The most important question they dont ask is why are Arab Muslims not bringing these questions

There are a number of progressive Muslim scholars, especially in Turkey,
Egypt, Malaysia, Algeria and Indonesia, who seem to be making deeper
inroads in the 21st century Islamic reformist psyche. In Pakistan Javed
Ahmed Ghamdi, the London-based Ziauddin Sardar and respected
intellectual, Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy can be named.

In their work on Islam they have taken a scientific and a strictly
academic approach, and are not immune to openly question the historicity
of the Laws of Islam that have been handed down to us from the 8th
century onwards; or a history and versions of the Shariah that started
to appear almost two centuries after the demise of the Prophet.

To them the Muslims need to have an interpretative relationship with the
Holy text. According to Sardar, for example, we have been relying on an
age-old interpretation of the Qu’ran, one that is ice-capped in history.
The context of this interpretation is of the 8th and 9th century Muslim
societies. It needs to be radically updated through ijtihad.

Most current Islamic reformists are also concerned about the
retrogressive tendency in some recent so-called modern Islamists to
determine ‘scientific miracles in the Qu’ran.’

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Prem » 11 Jun 2009 23:25

How come Burn was able to meet MMS, i am under the impression we stricltly follow the protocol. The journalists should have asked Burn about the reactivation date of Hoorirats by Uncle so the wishes of few Kashmir Sunni Muslims to sell indian land for Ummah come true.

After thought, If India buy MRCA from US , can it be deployed in J&K before the so called wishes of Sunni Parasitest be fulfilled per Uncle.
Last edited by Prem on 11 Jun 2009 23:35, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby HariC » 11 Jun 2009 23:32

Image

Atri
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Atri » 11 Jun 2009 23:41

ShauryaT wrote:
shiv wrote:India just does not have the will power to pour money into becoming a superpower military state challenging the US given that it has x00 million people without clean water supply, a similar huge number without homes, basic healthcare and sanitation.

India is "weak" by a lot of standards. the toss up is between spending India's wealth on building up the military to 5 times its current strength to stare everyone down while ignoring all those hundreds of millions - who may then revolt. or doing what India is doing now. That is, admitting its weaknesses and playing the few cards it has.

We need to look at this as a possible explanation of what we are seeing.


Yes, however, the facts and deductions from them need to be accurate. If one cares to look into the budget and see what India spends on subsidies and amounts wasted. The amounts that can be saved through fiscal reforms. The number of inefficient and unprofitable business units that the central and state governments run and/or fund. The loss to the nation due to the few monopolies, who do turn a profit. The volume of economic reforms that can be undertaken to stimulate growth. Only a blind and/or corrupt person will make the arguments, that we have heard made so many times by many of our leaders.

Mao type of militarization at the cost of the nation, is not the automatic answer to "better" security. There are better ways.

Even after the massacre of 70+ million by Mao (by some estimates) and Deng Xiaoping's Tiananmen, at least a section of the chinese people, seem to have accepted the diktats of the CPC - in exchange for being materially better off. How many Chinese will trade this material well being in exchange for the freedom's we enjoy, is some food for thought.


Historically it is seen that Indics tends to prosper if left alone.. And they prosper harmoniously with respect to surrounding. In spite of all the 8-9% growth, Bhaarat still is the greenest country in the world.

I guess, Bhaarat has no option but to grow strong economically. We do not need Mao who overthrows the existing system. We need Shankaracharya who reinstates the already standardised system which has evolved according to needs and conditions of our country.

There are some countries, who can afford to have either only militaristic (like NoKo, TSP) or only economic (Scandinavian countries) outlook. Countries like China, India, Iran cannot afford to have single minded outlook. Indeed, it is a knife-walk.

And given the diversity of our civilization, the subsidies are essential for public appeasement. We have to either appease them all or discipline them all, in current socio-political set-up.

The American dream has penetrated the minds of many Indians and most importantly Indian policy makers who wish to achieve western styled development in India at all costs. Rather only having a lifestyle comparable to the one in West is considered as developed lifestyle. The fact of the matter is that the traditional Bhaaratiya lifestyle is much more eco-friendly and natural and beneficial for people living in Bhaarat and is nothing short of "developed" life-style.

I guess, this is the price we pay for heterogeneity and diversity. Perhaps our own structural factors does not allow us to develop rapidly in Western style. We can develop very rapidly if we rediscover our way of life and can do so in extremely sustainable manner. Village empowerment is single biggest thing that can not only place India ahead of all nations, but also the decentralized way of life and thought has protected us from extinction in past thousand years of Abrahamic dominance. This is what MKG understood and this is what NaMo achieved in Gujarat.

Decentralization coupled with Dhaarmic sustainability in terms of agriculture, lifestyle and values towards self, family, and Bhaarat can make us strong in our own terms.

Bhaarat and Bhaaratiya civilization is being forced to play on the strengths of Abrahamic (or Western) memes and to follow and obey Abrahamic (or Western) standards of strength, development and lifestyle.

I wish Nitish Kumar does to Bihar what NaMo did with Gujarat. If Nitish facilitates the beginning of the rise of Indic and Dhaarmic Magadha through the means of village empowerment, only then I guess India will start gathering the clout to challenge the influence of the West and assert it self.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Dilbu » 12 Jun 2009 00:11

India should have projected the great chankian inaction against TSP after 26/11 itself as the biggest concession we will ever make. The line had to be drawn there and claims had to be made for TSP to respond to this restraint by taking action against the perpetrators. Pressure had to be kept mounting on TSP. Instead of doing any of these we have ended up being pushed to do bhaichara chai-biskoot by unkil, of all the people.

What about the restraint we showed? Isnt that a concession and isnt it TSP who should be responding? Why are we meeky accepting this BS? It will be a colossal foreign policy failure if India ends up making concessions from the position we were in 6 months ago.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby p_saggu » 12 Jun 2009 00:42

narayanan wrote:
Poor chap :shock:


Try "insurance scam" too. 8)

Wait a minute!
Which insurer in his right mind would ever insure a property like that in Pakistan? Natural disasters is one thing, but vaccum bulbs going off in pakistan is a given thing - it is as sure as the sun rising and the sun setting and the military junta taking over.

Now to the list of me feeling pity for the pakis, I have to add, the Poor Insurance Company too.

Hari C,
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby MurthyB » 12 Jun 2009 00:58

From this link:



This comment:

10. June 10, 2009
5:05 pm

I stayed at the Pearl Continental hotel back in September 1989. During that visit I attended a cocktail party at the US consulate that was outdoors, but behind a heavy masonry wall. Throughout the party (where the liquor flowed freely) the sound of the distant machine gun fire of the Mujahadeem could be clearly heard. In those days, of course, they were the “allies” of the US in our attempt to conquer Soviet imperialism. No doubt all that CIA funded training went a long way toward making them the potent threat that they are today.

I remember after the consulate party returning to the hotel where my companion and I were determined to have one more drink. There was a bar in the hotel, but in order to be served, we had to fill out a lengthy legal document affirming that we were Christian. For our labors, we enjoyed some of the most vile whiskey known to man (yes, it was distilled in Pakistan). :rotfl: To this day I am thankful I didn’t go blind as a result. All told, this is a very odd corner of the world.

— Bill Wood, Watertown, Mass. 02472



Is that MP Bhandara's crap he guzzled?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby anupmisra » 12 Jun 2009 03:09

Prem wrote:How come Burn was able to meet MMS, i am under the impression we stricltly follow the protocol.


Burns was delivering a letter from Obama.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Dipanker » 12 Jun 2009 03:47

CRamS wrote:USA has effecvtively told India, forget Mumbai, surrender to our TSP allies because that is in our interests. And India and Indians like me can do nothing but seethe with impotent rage. Very sad and pathetic.


^^ Ditto.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SBajwa » 12 Jun 2009 05:32

In response to a question on Kashmir, Burns said "it remains our view that resolution of the Kashmir issue has to take into account wishes of Kashmiri people."


We need Indian politicians who can reply to such a question by saying that

"We are looking for the day when the wishes of the Southern States of USA can be fulfilled"
or
"When will be the wishes of the brave people of the lone star state be realized?"

Indian politicians and media is so downright illiterate and beyond strategic vision that anything is being said in media by idiots like Burns to gauge us.

or at the minimum at least somebody could have said (may be they will in coming days)

"What about the people of Sindh and Baluchistan?"

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby p_saggu » 12 Jun 2009 05:38

Why blame the americans onlee. From day 1 GOI did not seem serious in pursuing the actual perpetrators of the mumbai carnage.
Never once in its utterances or actions did one ever get the confidence that GOI was after so many years was turning a new leaf. In fact I allege, that just like the Prime Minister's relief fund, the Anti terror law was held back to be released as a sop in the event of a major terrorist atrocity. Every breath of GOI's actions betrayed its eagerness to fire fight the incident and push things under the carpet, and get on with normalcy.

The fact is, the thousands of Indian citizens who have lost their lives at the hands of Pakistan sponsored terror will NEVER get true justice, the perpetrators will NEVER be brought to their just ends.

Why blame the americans, they see GOI in a dilemma - rudderless on this issue, so they move in and suggest a path that serves their interest.

GOI's Pakistan policy these days is run through the alleyways of foggy bottom.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Prem » 12 Jun 2009 05:39

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009\06\12\story_12-6-2009_pg7_1
Pakistan critical to US national security interests: Holbrooke
( Obama will recapture the glory of Jimmi Carter Success)

* Special envoy optimistic about passage of measures to increase aid to Pakistan
* Says ROZs even more important because of IDPs

WASHINGTON: US special envoy Richard Holbrooke has hinted that Pakistan is critical to America’s security interests, and said that Islamabad needs Washington’s help in dealing with the challenges it is facing.

“Pakistan needs our help and that help is in our own national security interests. And that’s why Barack Obama has endorsed the bill [in Senate] by John Kerry and Richard Lugar,” said the diplomat at the State Department on Wednesday, and hoped that the measure would pass “quite soon”.

Amid indications of progress on Pakistan aid bills, Holbrooke stressed that economic assistance and a preferential trade programme for Islamabad would provide hopeful opportunities to Pakistanis.

Holbrooke sounded optimistic about the passage of the initiatives that would significantly expand economic assistance for Pakistan as well as allow duty-free import of products from reconstruction opportunity zones (ROZs).

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby p_saggu » 12 Jun 2009 05:49

wrt IDPs in pakistan.
These people may be displaced from their homes and many would have lost their family members to the taliban or the Pak army shelling.
But if we remember the ground situation of the average population in Pakistan, these people are actually very well off in those camps with shelter, food, medicines etc being provided by the donors.
Given the opportunity, ordinary abduls from all across pakistan will not hesitate to move into those camps, because they offer shelter and food.

Why this hue and cry for their fate then? Baksheesh, baksheesh and more baksheesh onlee.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Prem » 12 Jun 2009 05:58

Osama hiding in Pakistan: CIA

WASHINGTON: CIA Director Leon Panetta said on Thursday the US intelligence agency believes Al Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden is hiding in Pakistan, and hoped joint operations with Pakistani forces will find him. Asked whether he was sure that Bin Laden was in Pakistan, Panetta told reporters, “The last information we had, that’s still the case.” Finding Bin Laden is “one of our major priorities”, said Panetta. “One of our hopes is that the Pakistanis move in militarily, combined with our operations, we may be able to have a better chance” to find the Al Qaeda leader, he said. Panetta said Al Qaeda “remains the most serious security threat”. There are “a number of people” on the ground in Pakistan providing intelligence on Al Qaeda targets to the US, :shock:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009\06\12\story_12-6-2009_pg7_2

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby brihaspati » 12 Jun 2009 06:01

The Buddha said, that desire was the source of all suffering. Why this repeated self-flagellation, by desiring that the GOI does "this" or does "that" ? I find myself repeatedly on this forum on the very lonely Nirvana path - where I do not expect things like the TSP imploding on its own soon, or TSP splitting like a ripe watermelon shot at 30 paces because of subnationalism, or the GOI suddenly turning up the military ratchet on TSP, or even making "firm" statements of defiance towards US blessings and manna showering on TSP. I try not even to be elated when each time my lonely predictions of GOI behaviour and outcome is confirmed. Searching for reasons behind such phenomenon can of course lead to realizations that might appear seditious - and which just might stir authorities to prompt action with all the energy that has been carefully saved from being spent on dealing with TSP.

Not expecting anything from the GOI, cannot be decried as a sign of disloyalty or sedition. But it will save a lot of heartburn and anguish. Tamaso ma jyotirgamayo.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 12 Jun 2009 06:15

brihaspati ji,

I think some people simply don't like the Nirvana world because there are no roller coasters there.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ramana » 12 Jun 2009 07:08

Brishaspati(I didn't call you Jupiter! as I am referring to an Indic meme), We are in it for Nishkama karma. If GOI does do something(like snowballs chance in hell) we want to recognize it early enough.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby shaardula » 12 Jun 2009 07:15

brihaspati wrote:The Buddha said, that desire was the source of all suffering. Why this repeated self-flagellation, by desiring that the GOI does "this" or does "that" ? I find myself repeatedly on this forum on the very lonely Nirvana path - where I do not expect things like the TSP imploding on its own soon, or TSP splitting like a ripe watermelon shot at 30 paces because of subnationalism, or the GOI suddenly turning up the military ratchet on TSP, or even making "firm" statements of defiance towards US blessings and manna showering on TSP. I try not even to be elated when each time my lonely predictions of GOI behaviour and outcome is confirmed. Searching for reasons behind such phenomenon can of course lead to realizations that might appear seditious - and which just might stir authorities to prompt action with all the energy that has been carefully saved from being spent on dealing with TSP.

Not expecting anything from the GOI, cannot be decried as a sign of disloyalty or sedition. But it will save a lot of heartburn and anguish. Tamaso ma jyotirgamayo.


ok i get the spirit of the post, but i am highly disappointed that you take refuge in the master of non-sequiturs. may you be cursed with your desired nirvana in that life and sushupti in this. and may glories be upon those who are restless and sleepless. for they dont desire the most seditious desire of all - the desire to be free of misery.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby shaardula » 12 Jun 2009 07:24

Acharya wrote:
Dilbu wrote:Maududi’s Children
How the intellectuality of Political Islam turned into the brutality of faithful fascism: Nadeem F. Paracha


Very important dialogue going on here.
The Muslims outside the Arab world are growing up with logic and reason. They find it odd that the faith they practice actually suppresses these thoughts. They are struggling to bring order into their lives by reinterpreting the texts.

The most important question they dont ask is why are Arab Muslims not bringing these questions

There are a number of progressive Muslim scholars, especially in Turkey,
Egypt, Malaysia, Algeria and Indonesia, who seem to be making deeper
inroads in the 21st century Islamic reformist psyche. In Pakistan Javed
Ahmed Ghamdi, the London-based Ziauddin Sardar and respected
intellectual, Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy can be named.

In their work on Islam they have taken a scientific and a strictly
academic approach, and are not immune to openly question the historicity
of the Laws of Islam that have been handed down to us from the 8th
century onwards; or a history and versions of the Shariah that started
to appear almost two centuries after the demise of the Prophet.

To them the Muslims need to have an interpretative relationship with the
Holy text. According to Sardar, for example, we have been relying on an
age-old interpretation of the Qu’ran, one that is ice-capped in history.
The context of this interpretation is of the 8th and 9th century Muslim
societies. It needs to be radically updated through ijtihad.

Most current Islamic reformists are also concerned about the
retrogressive tendency in some recent so-called modern Islamists to
determine ‘scientific miracles in the Qu’ran.’


as long as they are in the business of interpreting texts, are searching for coherence in texts, they are doomed to wrangling with semantics.

especially in a text that is more political than it is spiritual.

i read the dawn blog. in the past few days it occurs to me that theoretical constructs are secondary. the primary issue is in individuals seeking glory in the collective. this is present in all societies, but in islam it is heightened. let me just say, if maududi's thesis could be realized without all the pain, then nobody would object. specifically, there will not be any significant voice of dissent, if all the non muslims of the world could be subjected to islamic intellectual thesis.

put differently, the current anguish is not against the acute deficiency of the islamic thesis, but against it not being the dominant narrative. if all the current human understanding could be erased, and islamic intellectualism could be made dominant, then they will all lap it up without a murmur.

i think reforming islam is a fool's errand. irrespective of the amount of intellectualism you bear on it. muslims on the other hand could possibly take a lesson from the kuffars and redeem themselves despite islam.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby brihaspati » 12 Jun 2009 08:03

Shaardula wrote
ok i get the spirit of the post, but i am highly disappointed that you take refuge in the master of non-sequiturs. may you be cursed with your desired nirvana in that life and sushupti in this. and may glories be upon those who are restless and sleepless. for they dont desire the most seditious desire of all - the desire to be free of misery.

See, I told you - disappointment comes when you expect things! The desire to enjoy pain and misery is technically called "masochism".

Expecting concrete steps from the GOI, that affects TIRP negatively, is only going to lead to disappointment. Making this statement is not tantamount to sedition and disloyalty because, first of all, nowhere does the Constitution of India require the GOI to do formally anything about TIRP, as long as TIRP is not directly invading the country in the form of one of possibly several internationally recognized aggressive actions including war.

To take such concrete steps, any government needs to have a clear set of objectives regarding what to do with TIRP. Committing to any such objective publicly reduces the chance of wriggling out of it if you fail. The safest policy is that of total non-commitment. In that case you can never lose face.

We are in the ad-hoc zone, where everything is ad-hoc - ideology, commitments, all are subject to ad-hocism and ideology of absolute vacuum and non-commitments. In such a scenario, the absolute vacuum is the best possible strategy to deal with TIRP. This keeps TIRP constantly guessing, and forever unsure - for it cannot even measure and calibrate its next attack, by the reaction it gets from the previous one. Its like dealing with a galactic black hole - throw everything at it, no reaction, nothing comes out - maybe a few gamma ray busrts from the "sleepless" and the "restless".

When we see great silence and non-reaction, we extend our own deep wishes and project them on the entity that is in deep non-reaction. We begin to imagine, that such thundering silence cannot be without an equally thundering reason - that of mega-volcanic reaction being silently prepared for. It is a great triumph of the silent entity - for it can then use your imagination against you. You will believe in your own imagination and keep on hoping and expecting - while the entity can carry on its task of being silent and having to do nothing.

There is going to be no reaction about TIRP from the expected quarters in the expected manner, simply because no reaction was ever planned for. There is no legal commitment to do so. It is better to think of longer term objectives and plans, and put in legally acceptable methods of having a GOI that does not have the "vacuum" ideology enforcement policy.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby John Snow » 12 Jun 2009 08:15

Desire of Nirvana itself is desire of delusions, so get rid of that desire detach the "de" form sire :wink:

(for those who may not get {not the regular BRF but Pakis), Sire is a form of address for reigning Kings in the United Kingdom and in Belgium. It was formerly also used in England, France, Italy, Germany and Spain...)

Nirvana if you want get to it about a mile close , then Niravana Shatakam is to be contemplated, its a state not an end.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby John Snow » 12 Jun 2009 08:23

Meanwhile our TSP aka TIRP is full of beggars as repeatedly confirmed in any Itnl fora.

From Ahmad Rashid to Zaradari all are beggars par excellence. Thats A to Z

Listen to this interview of Ahamad Rashid with Terry Gross the host of Fresh Air on NPR

Terry asks, so what can US do?
Ahmad we need 1 Billion dollars to start with for the rehab of SWAT population displaced by the action against Taliban.


THE FACE THAT LAUNCHED BILLION BEGGING BOWLS

Image


Fresh Air from WHYY, June 11, 2009 · Pakistani journalist Ahmed Rashid introduced American readers to the Taliban his May 2001 book, Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia, which became a best-seller after the Sept. 11 attacks.

Now, in Descent into Chaos, Rashid examines the United States' failures in Central Asia, where, the author says, Washington has helped create an unstable Pakistan, a reinvigorated Taliban and an entrepreneurial al' Qaeda that is profiting off the opium trade.

Rashid writes for The Washington Post, El Mundo, and other international newspapers. In 2001 he was awarded the Nisar Osmani Award for courage in journalism.

Listen here http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105244794

There are some very interesting nuggest apart from begging.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby brihaspati » 12 Jun 2009 08:28

why leave the stud horses out - they are also "sires"! It just meant male progenitor.

ramanaji - nishkama karma was preached to someone who identified with his enemy, and therefore felt shaky in shedding the blood of "kin". That could be admission of recognizing that those we now see as "kin" and therefore "aghnayo", could actually be "adharmic" enemies? Both in GOP and GOI context, and BRF-GOI context, thats something to teckon with :mrgreen:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby arun » 12 Jun 2009 08:41

Yesterday was a busy day for the affirmers of the IEDology of Pakistan with multiple IED Mubarak’s in Pakistan:

Two killed, six security men among 10 injured in blast

One killed, 31 hurt in three DI Khan blasts

Bolan Express bombed; one killed, 35 hurt

Two killed in suicide attack
Last edited by arun on 12 Jun 2009 08:49, edited 1 time in total.

John Snow
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby John Snow » 12 Jun 2009 08:44

I am no specialist on quadrupeds so I yield on that :mrgreen:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby shiv » 12 Jun 2009 08:53

arun wrote:Yesterday was a busy day for the affirmers of the IEDology of Pakistan with multiple IED Mubarak’s in Pakistan:

Two killed, six security men among 10 injured in blast

One killed, 31 hurt in three DI Khan blasts

Bolan Express bombed; one killed, 35 hurt

Two killed in suicide attack


Disappointing day. No double digits anywhere to be multiplied by 72.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ArmenT » 12 Jun 2009 08:58

Pakistan's Loose Nukes

Interesting article from the beeb.
A few years ago, I was told about extraordinary US contingency plans to recover Pakistan's nuclear weapons, in the event of a collapse of law and order or an extremist coup in that country.

My informant gave me considerable detail. A super-secret agreement had been put in place early this decade following confrontations between India and Pakistan, two nuclear armed nations, over the disputed Kashmir region.

In order to stabilise an otherwise potentially highly volatile situation, Pakistan would tell the US where its nuclear weapons were.

India had been promised, that in the event of some Pakistani national cataclysm, the Americans would move in to remove the nuclear weapons.

The "loose nukes" nightmare would thus be avoided, and India would not be tempted into a first strike on Pakistan's atomic arsenal.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Vivek_A » 12 Jun 2009 09:47

TFT is out



Rise and fall of Pervez Musharraf


Najam Sethi's E d i t o r i a l


General (retired) Pervez Musharraf is making the most of his forced retirement. He is ensconced comfortably in his own flat in London, hobnobbing with friends, playing bridge, giving interviews, lecturing at conferences and offering to serve Pakistan as an everlasting patriot. He has said that he wouldn’t mind becoming an official ambassador of goodwill and peace between Pakistan and India so that he can help conclude the back channel diplomacy launched in 2004 for settling the thorny issue of Kashmir. He has also expressed a desire to re-enter politics as soon as the mandatory two-year hiatus after relinquishing public office is over by the end of this year.

Back home, however, his foes are baying for his blood. Mr Nawaz Sharif wants him tried for treason for overthrowing his democratically elected government in 1999. The family of Nawab Akbar Bugti insists he should be tried for the murder of the Baloch patriarch. The Chief Justice of Pakistan, Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry, is keen on declaring illegal and unconstitutional everything General Musharraf did in his capacity as army chief after November 3, 2007. President Asif Zardari and the PPP still hold him responsible, if not culpable, for the assassination of Benazir Bhutto in December 2007. And his erstwhile, now orphaned, PMLQ allies of the past, Chaudhry Pervez Elahi and Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, have finally shrugged their shoulders and ruefully admitted that he had long ago become a political liability for them.

For all these reasons, General Musharraf was quietly advised by his handpicked army chief, General Ashfaq Kayani, to get off his high horse and slip out of the country in April. Ever the blustering but pragmatic man, General ® Musharraf took the advice and followed the well-trodden path of exile fated for many Pakistani leaders in the past, including Benazir Bhutto, Asif Zardari, Nawaz Sharif and Altaf Hussain, all with no small thanks to him.

General Musharraf recently remarked that he regretted not asking Parliament in 2004 to let him be President for five years instead of three. This wasn’t a blindly self-righteous or arrogant statement. It underscores the significance of the core issue in 2007 which derailed him irrevocably. This was the sacking of CJP Chaudhry at the prodding of key vested interests – including the DGMI, CM Punjab, the federal law secretary, and the PM – so that the “maverick”, potentially “troublesome” judge could be got out of the way before bidding for a second presidential term in November.

The sacking of the CJP was followed by a series of events and decisions that rebounded on General Musharraf and hastened his exit: the restoration of the CJP by rebellious peers in July; the November 3 mini-coup to protect himself against a resurgent SC; the shedding of his uniform as a compromise gesture; the notorious NRO and murky deal with Benazir Bhutto to buy political longevity; the return of Nawaz Sharif at the insistence of Saudi Arabia; the assassination of Benazir which came to be laid at his door; the routing of the King’s PMLQ party in the 2008 elections; and the subsequent rise to power of Asif Zardari and the consequent political isolation and alienation of the man on the hill from his erstwhile political partner and former military institution.

General Musharraf’s eight years in power were marked by many ups and downs, twists and turns. But he didn’t ever see anything as a reverse or setback, making rank political opportunism a fine art of “tactics” and “strategy” (his favourite two words). He was the adventurer who went all guns blazing into Kargil, then retreated in abject shame. He was the strutting cock in Agra in 2001 who refused to close the jihadi tap into Kashmir, then faced the full Indian army on his border and hurriedly pledged to stop exporting terrorism. He was the strategic American ally after 9/11 who refused to acknowledge the links of the jihadi organizations with the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, then became their target of assassination when he was compelled to close down their camps. He was the “enlightened moderate” who pledged to reform the blasphemy law, then backpedaled furiously on the advice of the ISI when threatened by the mullahs. He was the most radical “out-of-the-box” thinker on Kashmir who couldn’t complete his agenda. He was the most popular man in Pakistan at the end of 2006 and the most reviled one a year later. Is there a political role for him in the future?

Pakistani politicians and generals never retire. Unimaginable and strange things have also been known to happen, like the elevation of Mr Asif Zardari to the presidency! But General (retd) Pervez Musharraf’s star is not likely to rise and shine again until his everlasting nemesis Nawaz Sharif remains the most popular contender for power in the country. Personal security is also an issue. Every Islamic radical, extremist and suicide bomber desperately wants to avenge Lal Masjid. Since neither can be wished away for the next ten years or so, unless Allah so wills it, we are not likely to see the general in Islamabad for some years to come.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby sum » 12 Jun 2009 10:00

The recent arrest of a Pakistan national from Kanpur Dehat, Waqqas Ahmed, exposes the looming danger posed by 'missing' Pakistan nationals who come to India and 'forget' to return home.

Waqqas Ahmed came to India for 'watching' the Indo-Pak cricket series in 2005, but did the vanishing act thereafter. Now that his ISI credentials are confirmed, the law enforcers have the onerous task of tracing his aides.

Shouldn't the IB guys in charge of background checking/surveillance be fired?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby sum » 12 Jun 2009 10:02

Making sense of Pakistan’s identity crisis

Arguably 60 years are not a long time in the history of a nation but by 60, even a country with a troubled past such as Pakistan, is expected to at least start making sense of what it stands for and where it is heading, however fuzzy the direction. And when it continues to flounder — like Pakistan — lurching from one crisis to another, it becomes a liability not only to its own people but also has implications for the wider international community, especially its neighbours — in this case India.

Pakistanis are a proud people. They feel humiliated when their country is mocked at as a “failed state” and routinely mentioned in the same breath as the pirate-infested Somalia which does not even have a properly functioning capital. For all its afflictions, Pakistan (a functioning democracy, however flawed, with a free press, an independent judiciary and a vibrant civil society) is by no means a failed state.

Not yet. But signs of a meltdown are all too evident and there are genuine fears about its future. One view, of course, is that the West will not allow it to fail for its own strategic reasons. But that is hardly very reassuring.

So what went wrong? How did a country which has no dearth of talent and whose founders had such high hopes for it that they named it “Pakistan” (a pure country) go so horribly wrong? Was there something rotten at the very core of the idea of Pakistan that has been its undoing? Is Pakistan’s failure to make sense of itself the result of a deep confusion over its Islamic/Muslim identity? If yes, what is the way forward, if any?

A new book, Making Sense of Pakistan (Hurst & Company, London) by Farzana Shaikh — a highly regarded U.K.-based Pakistani scholar and Fellow of Chatham House — argues that there is no hope for Pakistan unless it sorts out its identity crisis which, it says, is the root cause of the country being such a disaster. Indeed, in order to make sense of Pakistan, it is important to make sense of its identity crisis first.

Everything that is wrong with Pakistan today — its “distorted economic and social development,” its “obsession” with India, the sectarian divisions that have blighted relations among its various communities, its proneness to military dictatorships and the rise of extremism first directed at its “enemies” and now devouring its own creators — is a direct or indirect result of its confused sense of itself, Dr. Shaikh says.

So deep is this confusion that more than six decades after its creation, even the definition of who is a “Pakistani” is not clear with the Indian Muslim migrants still being regarded as outsiders by ethnic communities which claim that they are the “real” Pakistanis by virtue of their historical roots in the region. Over the years, this conflict between indigenous Muslim groups and migrants has been a source of deep (and frequently violent) divisions in Pakistani society. And it is still festering.

But nowhere is Pakistan’s self-inflicted identity crisis more evident than in relation to India, according to Dr. Shaikh. Because of the nature of its creation — a secessionist state born in opposition to the Indian nationalist movement — Pakistan was lumped with an identity, defined in terms of what it was “not” (it was “not India”) rather than what it was.

“Indeed, much of the uncertainty over Pakistan’s identity stems from the nagging question of whether its identity is fundamentally dependent on India and what its construction might entail outside of opposition to the latter. This has prompted the suggestion that Pakistan is a state burdened with a negative identity shaped by the circumstances of Partition,” Dr. Shaikh says.

Ever since its formation, Pakistan has struggled to overcome this negative identity. Its search for what it regards as legitimacy has, in fact, been the “defining feature” of its policy towards India, especially the Kashmir issue, and is at the heart of its quest for military parity with a neighbour “almost seven times its size in population and more than four times its land mass.”

The dispute with India over Kashmir has come to symbolise Pakistan’s obsessive bid to delink its identity from its historical antecedents. To quote the author: “It is here [over Kashmir], amid the rhetoric of rival claims over territory and state sovereignty, that Pakistan has fought to assert itself and to liberate its identity from the uncertainties that have attached to its status as merely ‘not India’.” She argues that Pakistan’s efforts to achieve this identity underline its historical claim to parity with India: a claim “grounded” in Mohammad Ali Jinnah’s insistence that “equality of the nations of Hindus and Muslims” be the basis for any territorial division of British India.

As much as the national interest, it is Pakistan’s compulsive desire for parity with India (an extension of its efforts to assert its “independent” identity) that has shaped much of its foreign policy leading it to seek help from foreign powers. Take its alliance with America which, the author points out, has been motivated as much by security considerations — a protection against an attack from India — as by its “need for validation and its desire to win recognition of its special status.” Being a “strategic partner” of the world’s only superpower is seen in Pakistan as a boost to its “global image” to match India’s global status.

Again, it is Pakistan’s “self-perception” of national identity that, according to Dr. Shaikh, has led it to compete with India in the race for regional domination — by, for example, flexing its muscles in Afghanistan. “Although the consequences of these foreign policy ambitions have often been devastating to Pakistan and the strategic costs immense, no price is yet seen to be too high to validate Pakistan’s claim to nationhood ... Thus Pakistan’s struggle against India is deeply embedded in a painful awareness of its own lack of a national history,” she observes.

Ultimately, though, India is only part of a bigger story of Pakistan’s struggle with its identity which, Dr. Shaikh contends, has had a profound effect on every aspect of the country’s life and, indeed, its world view. The uncertainty resulting from a lack of consensus on what constitutes Pakistan’s national identity has “deepened the country’s divisions ... discouraged plural definitions of the Pakistani ... blighted good governance and tempted political elites to use the language of Islam as a substitute for democratic legitimacy.”

Today, Pakistan remains an enigma with no clear understanding of the nature of the Pakistani state. Analysing the causes of this debilitating confusion, she traces it back to the origins of Pakistan, the politics of its creation and the flawed assumption of its founders that religion could be the basis of a modern, forward-looking state.

A project forged around the idea that a Muslim religious identity, overriding cultural and social factors, was enough to unify a nation was doomed from the start. And, sure enough, the project started to unravel within years of its inauguration with Bengali-speaking Muslims breaking away from Pakistan to form their own Muslim state of Bangladesh. It is Pakistan’s “artificiality” as a nation-state — its eastern and western wings separated by more than a thousand miles of Indian territory and its citizens divided by a variety of linguistic and cultural traditions despite a common religion — that has prevented the evolution of a coherent national identity. This, in brief, is the thrust of Dr. Shaikh’s argument.

So what’s new, one might ask. Doesn’t it sound all too familiar? Dr. Shaikh may not be breaking new ground here but it is refreshing to come across a Pakistani viewpoint that doesn’t regard the discussion of Pakistan’s legitimacy as a no-go zone. It is a sensitive issue with Pakistanis who, as Dr. Shaikh points out, believe that India still “rejects the rationale of Pakistan’s statehood even if it has been forced to accept its reality.”
<snip to avoid copyright issues>

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby p_saggu » 12 Jun 2009 10:06

A few things I understand: views wanted.

1. Musharraf may have had this deal with the US where the location of the leftover nukes will be disclosed, and the US will move in to secure the nukes, to prevent the talibs taking control of them. The understanding would have been that the nukes would revert back to Pakistani control when the situation stabilizes.
Of late Kiyani and his TV drama team of zaid hamid and shrileen have voiced concerns that the US intended to denuke pakistan. So maybe Pakistan has walked out of this agreement and is now dispersing whatever leftover maal it has got.

2. The US is fighting a war of attrition with the 'bad taliban' and the Saudi / Arab faction of AQ. They want to weaken this group so that there will be minimum blowback once the Pakistanis give OBL to the US / OBL meets Prabhakaran. Hence also the need to keep giving Pakistan iv infusions till then. What happens ultimately when OBL is gone and departed - who knows? A deal on Kashmir perhaps?

3. GOI has been co-opted to shut-up and play along. The payback to GOI might be
a) Reprocessing deal in one year.
b) The US going slow on its intention to pursue CTBT, FMCT, Kashmir with India.
c) Give up Kashmir for a Security council membership ???

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Raj Malhotra » 12 Jun 2009 10:11

arun wrote:Yesterday was a busy day for the affirmers of the IEDology of Pakistan with multiple IED Mubarak’s in Pakistan:

Two killed, six security men among 10 injured in blast

One killed, 31 hurt in three DI Khan blasts

Bolan Express bombed; one killed, 35 hurt

Two killed in suicide attack


Bloody slow pak-army-talipigs, don't they know that there are another 150million to kill, how will they achieve their target?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Vishal_Bhatia » 12 Jun 2009 10:13

p_saggu wrote:c) Give up Kashmir for a Security council membership ???


I'm not trying to defend the Indian political class, but this won't happen.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ramana » 12 Jun 2009 10:13

p-saggu wrote:c) Give up Kashmir for a Security council membership ???


When I was naive, I used to think the same. Now I wouldnt give up Kashmir for all the things in the world for it holds the key to many things.

The UNSC seat is an empty useless one. Its like the Star Wars grand council full of neutered notables dancing to the Emperor's whims.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby p_saggu » 12 Jun 2009 10:16

^^^
Besides if we hold on to Kashmir and the water, and keep on the 9% GDP growth rate, Security council won't matter anymore in a few years ...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby shynee » 12 Jun 2009 10:36

Why Pakistan can never Defeat the Taliban
...some columnists in the mainstream Pakistani media are trying to present the violence as a class struggle between the landowning families - khans as they are refered to, and the peasantry.

It couldn’t be far from the truth. In fact, such a veiw exhibits a complete ignorance of the Pakhtun culture. First and foremost there is no powerful feudal class in Swat as is common in Southern Punjab, Sindh or Balochistan. Neither is there an oppressed peasantry on the scale as found in these areas, whose lives are controlled by the feudals waderas. Terming the Swat issue as a class struggle is thus a gross distortion of the facts.

Taliban’s movement in Swat was never a struggle for empowering the peasantry against the Khans, as some of these analysts would like us to believe.The Pakhtun society does not suffer from the same disease of class and feudalism as in other parts of the country or to that extant at least. In Swat and in fact in most Pakhtun areas, the distinction between Khan and peasant is not as pronounced as propogated. On the social level, no Pakhtun, be he a farmer, a vendor or a daily wage worker considers himself inferior or subservient to any Khan. Nor are Pakhtun land owners used to treating their peasantry in the same mold as in Sindh or Southern Punjab, where they can not even marry off their daughters without the feudal’s permission. In the Pakhtun society, socially at least, all are by and large equal irrespective of their material holding or bank balance. This leads us to the question-why is this notion of a class struggle being created?

One of the most probabale motive seems to be a cover-up. This notion of a Khan vs Peasant in Swat is being created by the establishment on purpose to cover up its finger prints in the process of the rise of the Taliban in Swat. This is obvious from the fact that the overwhelming majority of those who suffered and are still suffering as a result of the Taliban violence are the working class and peasantry. The worst affectees of Taliban’s terror are mostly the poorest of the poor- be it those who were murdered or terrorised, be it the destruction of infrastructure or pilaging of property, overrunning business or burning schools. In the process some Landowning families were targeted too, for example the family of Afzal khan Lala was particularly targeted and suffered greatly, but for an entirely different reason. They were the prime targets of the Taliban terrorists because they have always been in the forefront of resistance against religious extremism and use of religion as a political tool in the area.

Another theory that is being spread around is that the Swati Taliban are fake. There are American and Indian agents fighting alongside the Taliban. That American, Israelie and Indian intelligence agencies are deeply involved in supporting the militants fighting in Malakand. This is another hypocritical assertion because these people in the very same breath glorify the Afghan Taliban as real heros because they are fighting against the US imperialism and afghan forces west of the Durand Line. This is simply untenable, because Afghanistan has a legitimate and elected government almost as good (or bad) as Pakistan. The presence of US and NATO forces there is sanctioned by the United Nations with the consensus of the government of Afghanistan and even Government of Pakistan was part of the Bonn process in 2002.

The known Headquarters in Muredke, of the terrorist organisation Jummat-u-Daawa ( JuD), involved in the Mumbai attacks and declared a terrorist organisation by the UN, was shut down by hanging only a lock on its door by the local district police officer. But the entire population of Malakand and Swat is being subjected to the most lethal weaponry in the arsenal of Pakistan Military in pursuit of a few thousand militants. Isn’t it ironic that the known extremist Maulana Aziz of the Lal Masjid, who held the capital Islamabad hostage for weeks, confessed to having trained suicide bombers, forced the state to launch a military operation which resulted in the killing of hundreds of innocent children has been set free to return as a hero to the same mosque, while hundreds of soldiers, and civilians are forced into death and disaster by fighting in Malakand against the same religious extremists. Maulana Aziz was arrested red handed while escaping from Lal Masjid. His acts of terror were telecast live to the whole nation and there is no lack of evidence against him -yet he roams free to recruit more extremists,brainwash more children and create more hatred in the name of Islam. All this in the belief that it will be an asset in the long term,while in Malakand and FATA, bloody operations have been launched for years on the plea of killing militants.

The biggest rationale for all this and a very pragmatic one is that the killing of Taliban in Malakand and FATA bring more and more dollars, thus Pakistan must appear to be doing something from time to time, while retaining the strings to raise or lower the level of violence as it seems fit. This is the duplicity which suggests that Pakistab can never get rid of religious extremism. No wonder then, that it is the third operation in Swat alone in the last two years, yet the the centre of gravity of the Taliban - its central leadership like Sufi Mohammad, Fazlullah, Muslim Khan, Shah Dowran etc have never been targeted, just like FATA where Baitullah Mahsud, Maulavi Faqir, Haji Mangal Bagh etc roam free despite a number of military operations. As far as the killing and maiming of thousands of civilians and displacement of more than 3 million people of the region is concerned – Never Mind, They are Pashtuns.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Prem » 12 Jun 2009 10:46

p_saggu wrote:^^^
Besides if we hold on to Kashmir and the water, and keep on the 9% GDP growth rate, Security council won't matter anymore in a few years ...

UNO is an impotant instituion for majority of Nations. It must be either destroyed or made irrelevant in near future .

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Avinash R » 12 Jun 2009 11:02

X-post

Pak commander blows the lid on Islamabad's Kargil plot
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... ot/475330/


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